....another medal question

[TacLan]

Whilst not wishing to detract from the "Vets should be awarded the jubilee medal" thread, a genuine question.

I have been awarded an OSM Afghanistan as a civilian, which differs from the very same medal I received whilst serving, only slightly (Mr. replaces my service number on the edge) Understanding that this is not a common occurrence and may cause some head scratching, does anyone know what is the "done thing" when one exercises the right to wear said baubles? (...Priority, same rack, the rules don't apply as I'm now a civvie?)

TACLAN waiting out

[Top Bunk Tester]

As a civilian now, I earned the Iraq medal (sans clasp), the OSM Afghanistan (with clasp) and the ACSM11. I still wear No5s for Mess functions so wear the above alongside the LS&GCM in the correct order. I don't believe there is a problem with this.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Are you asking if you can wear both medals (identical other than the name on the edge) in the same set because you have been awarded two?

[TacLan]

THS asked "Are you asking if you can wear both medals (identical other than the name on the edge) in the same set because you have been awarded two?"

Amongst other things, yes..

[Top Bunk Tester]

Sorry, misread the question and don't know the answer

[sidewayspeak]

Why would you want to wear medals after you have left the Service? What on, and when?

Perhaps on your suit if you attend Remembrance occasions? Wearing them on a DJ looks a little pretentious and sad. Wearing uniform (No5 or No1) when you have left is, I think, inappropriate - you've left move on.

Mine are gathering dust. I might get around to framing them one day, but wearing them was part of my time in the Service.

[Laarbruch72]

The short answer is no, you can't wear two of the same campaign medals, just the one.

[Whenurhappy]

Further to Laarbruch, if the first OSM was sans clasp/rosette and the second one was avec clasp/rosette, wear the one with the clasp/rosette.

But then as a civvie - you won't be wearing ribbons (therefore won't be wearing a rosette) so just stick with the medal with the clasp. Or wear both. Add a DSO for colour. Nothing will happen...

Added to say,

I attended a Black Tie dinner in london two weeks ago and quite a few people wore miniature medals. However, there was a woman there - wife of a serving Wg Cdr - wearing the QDJM along side the QGJM and a Balkans medal . I know she left the Service a couple of years ago and is a housewife with a couple of young kids now (an honorable profession, by the way). She's not VR or RAuxAF or TA and I was going to say something at the time but the moment was lost. What would Ppruners say in similar circumstances?

[BEagle]

What would Ppruners say in similar circumstances?

"Good evening".

[Whenurhappy]

Beagle - you made my Elevenses with that comment!

It would be fair to say that the woman in question hasn't 'let go' of being in the Service. Always organising, volunteering, etc etc. I did want to say something like 'I didn't realise you were entitled to that?' but it would have been embarrasing all round.

[Wensleydale]

Beagle's comment is certainly more civilised than standing next to the lady in question, pointing at her, and screaming "Walt" at the top your voice....

.....after all, it is her conscience, not yours.

[Training Risky]

Even if you are no longer serving, I assumed it was always acceptable to wear medals that you have earned on whatever form of civvies you like: Blazer for Rememberance Day, DJ for DINs as a guest, ballgown (for the ladies).

Wearing the uniform after you have left is another thing entirely though!

Is it written anywhere? QRs?

[Top Bunk Tester]

TR

AP1358 Chapter 2 Order No 0231

[Whenurhappy]

Wenslydale,

Absolutely correct. If the situation arises again, I would be tempted to say 'good to see you wearing your medasl'. Sufficiently cryptic, I would hope.

[Tankertrashnav]

As a dealer I have in the past had identical medals issued in error to the same service recipient, so this is not a new problem. During the Great War many soldiers changed regiments and in the post war period record checking was not 100% and two sets of medals could be issued in error, showing the different regiments after the recipient's name.

But to get back to the original question, the answer is an unequivocal "no". Wear one, keep the other in the sock drawer!

Btw, Whenurhappy you don't have to be in any of the services or police, ambulance etc to get a QDJM. Many civilians have received the medal, and the lady at the black-tie dinner could well have received hers quite legitimately. Beagle's advice therefore the most prudent!

[The Helpful Stacker]

With regards to wearing medals in civilian attire, the garrison tailor at Arborfield used to have a copy of Spink’s Manual for the Wearing of Orders, Decorations and Medals which is a guide for dealing with such matters.

[sisemen]

What would Ppruners say in similar circumstances?

Not really sure but it certainly gives one the perfect excuse to stare at her cleavage on the pretence that you're examining her medals :E

And as for looking down your nose at people wearing part uniform and medals once they're out of the service try explaining that to blokes like these....

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTB9eN8kFwtmdFNM3hHkEXuK-RVAGbDDXGlZebbodeWa_ZR3hk

[Whenurhappy]

Best I give her the benefit of the doubt on this - should I meet her again.

[Basil]

I'd thought that, if the invitation said: "Mess Kit or Black tie with Decorations and Miniatures" then retired personnel, male or female, would be correct in sporting same but I do stand to be corrected.

Bas - No medals despite all the aircraft I almost put out of action :}

[Melchett01]

What would Ppruners say in similar circumstances?

Nice rack :E

[Grumpy106]

Scout Leaders and thier ilk are entitled to wear both ribbons on their uniform and the actual medals if the parade allows it. Saw quite a few civvies in Windsor over the weekend weraing medals - fine with me, if you've been awarded them be proud to wear them.

[GrumpyGramps]

Wearing uniform (No5 or No1) when you have leftOh to have the choice. My kit shrank shortly after I left!

[Union Jack]

As a dealer I have in the past had identical medals issued in error to the same service recipient, so this is not a new problem.
- TTN

In the same vein, a senior - subsequently five star - officer on whose staff I served twice, discovered long long after WWII ended that he was actually eligible for the award of the Atlantic Star under the provisions of:

"Certain special conditions apply governing award of the Star for those Naval personnel entering service less than 6 months before the end of the qualifying period, provided it was the last operational theatre in which they served."

Application was duly made on his behalf, and the Atlantic Star very quickly turned up - accompanied by a Burma Star, despite the fact that he had not been within some 5000 miles of the place!

And yes, he kept it, but no, he didn't wear it .....

A propos the matter of wearing uniform after retirement, a few years ago the First Sea Lord of the day actively encouraged retired officers to wear uniform on appropriate occasions, and many do indeed so on the basis that they have moved from the Active List to the Retired List, and thus have not fully left naval service.

Oh to have the choice. My kit shrank shortly after I left! - GG

Mine fit me perfectly, although I must confess to not having added two items of bling subsequently authorised.:ok:

Jack

[Pheasant]

It is becoming increasingly common for retired Service personnel (and others) to wear medals at black tie event....and why not! Re the QDJM - there were some 425,000 minted - go figure who might reasonably be wearing them. Miniatures are not official medals so you might see anyone buying a set.

The current First Sea Lord is also encouraging retirees to wear uniform to appropriate events - dinners, Remembrance, weddings etc. For the RN you still hold the Queen's commission, just not on the Active List. Pity about the loss of an ID card though.

[Tankertrashnav]

Miniatures are quite correct with black tie. They are not, however, for day wear on a suit, blazer, etc. I often had guys coming in wanting a set of miniatures for Remembrance Day, etc, as they somehow thought that wearing the full size medals was "showing off". I always had a go at talking them into wearing the full size medals, but ultimately as a civvy you can do what you like, as long as you dont start awarding yourself decorations you're not entitled to.

Grumpy Gramps - my No 5 shrank too. Flipping Alkit, no wonder they went out of business :*

[Wensleydale]

Miniatures are quite correct with black tie.


I believe only if the invitation specifies "Black Tie with Miniatures". I would imagine that either wearing minitures when not specified, or not wearing your medals when awarded and specified would qualify for a typical fine of a bottle of port! Probably safer to carry in the pocket if unsure - just in case!

[MOSTAFA]

I was given another ACSM; instead of a bar to the original which I already had. I thought quite funny at the time as it arrived in the post whilst on my terminal leave. I threw it into the attic with all the others and that's where they will stay.

[Sloppy Link]

Back to the original question, this is an error on the part of the medal office but in their defence, whoever applied for you should have asked you if you already had been awarded. Had, as a serviceman, you had been awarded the OSM without the bar, then your service in theatre as a civilian where the OSM and bar would have been awarded, you should have been awarded just the bar. If you had the bar in the first place then no further award. Regardless, all time counts towards the aggregate for the ACSM11 whether serving or not and you very definitely should only be wearing one medal. The purist may even say that you should return the second award to the medals office with an explanation (keeping the bar if applicable). I am not a purist and would keep the second award as curio and a tale to tell the grandchildren.

SL

[Tankertrashnav]

I believe only if the invitation specifies "Black Tie with Miniatures".


Yes, I'd agree with that.

Re what to do with the spare medal, why not flog the spare and have a damn good night out on the proceeds, buy her indoors a nice present or, if you're feeling guilty, donate the (not inconsiderable) proceeds to your favourite charity?

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

What happens if, say, someone was awarded the MBE while in the service, then awarded another MBE as a civilian ? As the ribbons are slightly different would it be OK to wear both ?


Just asking.

Aaron.

[Sloppy Link]

Pretty certain you can only be awarded one Order. A second award is normally to a higher Order.

SL

[Tankertrashnav]

You are correct, Sloppy. Strictly speaking, you are appointed to an order (say the Order of the British Empire) as a member, officer, commander etc, and given the appropriate "badge" as they are called, eg MBE, OBE, CBE etc. Once appointed you cannot, by definition, be admitted to the same order twice, but you may be raised, say, from member to officer, etc. You could already be a military MBE and subsequently became a civil OBE. In that case you would wear the badge of Officer of the Order (OBE) with the civilian ribbon (without the central stripe).

Incidentally I am not at all impressed with modern MBE's, OBEs etc, which are of pretty poor quality. These used to be made by Garrards or the Royal Mint, but I think they are now made by Toye Kenning and Spencer, who should really stick to darts medals!

[Union Jack]

What happens if, say, someone was awarded the MBE while in the service, then awarded another MBE as a civilian?

Not strictly comparable I know, but I believe that a certain sporting lady who has been awarded an MBE (Mil) and subsequently appointed DBE (Civil), styles herself Dame Kelly Holmes DBE MBE.

Another little distinction was held by a former master of mine who was awarded an MBE (Mil) for gallantry "not in the face of the enemy" - just the siege of Malta! - and thus had the silver oak leaf emblem in addition. On his subsequent promotion to CBE (Mil), he was permitted to continue to wear the silver oak leaf emblem.

Now you've got me started, I also recall the case of the Vice Admiral who was put up for the award of the KCB which used to go to all members of the Admiralty Board who had not already received the award, but the - ahem! - Air Secretary of the day demurred on the grounds that X was not a seaman officer, so he was awarded a KBE instead. The very next year, it was the Royal Navy's periodic opportunity to award a GBE, and it was with great pleasure that the same Naval Secretary advised the same Air Secretary that the First Sea Lord had decided that it should be awarded to X, who was now a full Admiral!

Incidentally X was mentioned in despatches at 24 following the Battle of North Cape, awarded an MBE at 25, and subsequently a CBE, as well as having been at Dunkirk, involved in the hunt and sinking of the BISMARCK and the SCHARNHORST, at the Normandy landings, and present on board the USS MISSOURI at the signing of the Japanese surrender - not a bad record for someone who was "not a seaman officer", not least with appointment to no less than four different levels of the Order of the British Empire.:ok:

Jack

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

What happens if, say, someone was awarded the MBE while in the service, then awarded another MBE as a civilian ? As the ribbons are slightly different would it be OK to wear both ?

The reason I ask is that I knew a guy who was awarded the MBE whilst a WO in the RAF and then subsequently I saw an article announcing another MBE for service to the RAFA community after he had retired from the RAF.


Aaron.

[teeteringhead]

I also understand from acquaintances who have progressed up the "something BE" ladder, that when "promoted within the order" as it is known, you also have to send the previous one back!

Which - if nothing else - solves the problem of wearing both! I also know of an RAF MBE and an OBE who got awarded the civilian variety, and so wore the civilian ribbon on their uniforms. Didn't half confuse SWOs!!

Rather like the aged Rockape who used to be CRO at a secret Hampshire rotary base in the 1970s - he wore his (old style) GSM ribbon in front of those for his WW2 medals, again to the despair of SWOs, until he pointed out it was for Palestine in 1936!!

[Tankertrashnav]

The reason I ask is that I knew a guy who was awarded the MBE whilst a WO in the RAF and then subsequently I saw an article announcing another MBE for service to the RAFA community after he had retired from the RAF.



Well no one is perfect, including me, but I am 99% certain that was just a cockup on the part of the authorities



If one is appointed to a higher class within the order, one must return one's existing insignia in exchange for the more senior one, and cease using the junior post-nominal letters. Some people, however, have been appointed to both divisions, such as Dame Kelly Holmes (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Kelly_Holmes), who has been appointed an MBE in the military division and a DBE in the civil division, and is therefore known as "Dame Kelly Holmes, DBE, MBE


That neatly clarifies points raised by Union Jack and
Teeteringhead

[Union Jack]

That neatly clarifies points raised by Union Jack and
Teeteringhead

It certainly does TTN - many thanks.:ok:

Jack

[teeteringhead]

My thanks also TTN, was never quite sure whether my leg was being pulled on the "sending back" dit.........