Flying a Fixed Wing to a Heli Lesson

[SoCalKiwi]

Hello Guys and Girls, I hold a fixed wing commercial, instrument, with about 400 hours in single pistons of varying make.

I'm ready to start training for a helicopter add-on, and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on flying a fixed wing on a short flight to and from another field where I'm looking to train on a Schweizer. For those of you familiar with Socal its - KSMO>KVNY>KSMO. For those not in Socal its basically a 10 minute hop in the air vs 45-60 mins plus of driving/crawling each way on the infamous 405.

So what do you think? Am I going to have issues swapping back and forth (especially early in my heli training)? Or is it a non-issue?

Thanks in advance for your feedback :ok:

[puntosaurus]

There are well documented issues surrounding fixed wing pilots swapping to helicopters, but whether or not you fly fw to your rotary lessons is not really going to add or subtract to them.

HTH.

[stringfellow]

Your instructor will tell you that many fixed wing instinctive reactions (like pushing foreward in the event of engine failure) are NOT what to do in a helicopter as it will decay rotor rpm. But as a means of transport way to go!!!!!

[Good Vibs]

Many years ago when I was in US Army Rotary Wing Flight School we were told not to fly fixed wing aircraft while on leave.
The reasons were the different critical airspeeds between them during landing, takoffs and emergencies.
Being a student with few hours you might mix them up and have real problems.

[GoodGrief]

Don't do it, it might be counterproductive.
Like stringfellow said, the instructor has to un-teach fixed wing habits.

I can't for the life of me find the reference to a document stating that you're not allowed to fly any other helicopter type when enrolled into type rating training course for an additional helicopter type.
JAA? EASA? Company policy?

Any takers?

[topendtorque]

where I did my CHL at Long Beach in about '70 we had a dude there from NASA who was learning on H269's as a sim for harriers.

didn't worry him too much and didn't worry us too much either as he would turn up in anything that was spare on the flight line, DC3, F14, you name it, we'd get a good ghecko at it.

A great dude he was, had been spending quite some time test flying for the large aeroplane wingtip vortex / modifications, had some smick close up air to air photos of the shuttle riding piggy back. I was telling him how we used to do hovering autos from 300 feet, so out he went with his instructor , Monica and frightened each other severely while they wrestled with that idea.

[Corax]

I used to own a Cessna 140 when I was flying UH-1N and would go from one to the other often without issue. I don't see an issue.

[EBCAU]

I have swapped between Fixed Wing and Rotors throughout a large part of my career. My most varied day was to fly a piston helicopter, then fixed wing, followed by a turbine helicopter, for three different companies on low level ag operations.
I have never had a problem swapping between types. I do not have a problem swapping between my car, my motorcycle, or a truck either. They are all different and your mind copes with it because of the difference. I find myself more likely to make little errors swapping between two very similar types rather than widely disparate ones.
I have no special ability. I have just been lucky to have had the opportunity to fly such a variation. :)

[krypton_john]

There is no problem. As others have said there is a safety issue with not pushing forward on power loss. Another one is recovery from a low g push-over and not counteracting a roll with opposite cyclic leading to mast bumping.

I refuse to believe those situations are caused by being a plank pilot. They are caused by being an improperly trained helicopter pilot.

You never have to unlearn anything. You just have to learn something.

[puntosaurus]

Good Grief,

I can't for the life of me find the reference to a document stating that you're not allowed to fly any other helicopter type when enrolled into type rating training course for an additional helicopter type.
JAA? EASA? Company policy?

Any takers?

You may be thinking of JAR-OPS 3.945 (8) plus associated AMC and IEM that says:
Once an operator's coversion course has been commenced, a flight crew member does not undertake flying duties on another type until the course is completed or terminated unless otherwise approved by the authority. but that's for AOC operations not private flying, and frankly is widely ignored in the single pilot helicopter world outside the major offshore operators.

[rotorfan]

Having been a plank jockey 18 years before taking up rotary training, I was keenly aware of handling differences, for instance, pushing forward in the heli could mean a bad day. I had been reading all the well-known authors, thought I understood heli flight reasonable well, and had the discipline not to do pushovers. I don't consider myself exceptional.

Airplane flying didn't confuse my rotor training at all. But, I once rolled the throttle the wrong way due to motorcycle experience.:ooh: Came very close to an overspeed, but that taught me, and I didn't repeat it. Ingrained reactions can be the wrong move, so counter by keeping your head in the game, and don't stop thinking about what you are doing.

[TimdeBoer]

Really interesting...
I started flying helicopter on Microsoft Flight Simulator when I was six years old. From arrow keys, to a joystick, then rudder pedals and currently I even have a collective for some realistich "at home" simming.
I flew gliders from 2005 till 2009 and from 2008 till now I also have 2.5 hrs in real helicopters.
In 2006 I started flying model helicopters (teaches you good coordination:D).
I have a few flights in pistion fixed wings (172, 182, Arrow).

To sum it up I switched a lot back and forth in differnent types of aircraft and different types of flight control (small transmitter sticks, fullsize cyclic, even a yoke sometimes).

I was more used to flying rotary wing before I started flying fixed wing.

That is why I was more comfortable switching from rotary wing to fixed wing, because fixed wing is so much easier (it requires less coordination - at the same time - and less corrective control input), then switching the other way.

That is why I advise you, because you have never flown rotary wing before, not to fly fixed wing (during rotary wing lessons), as it probably will slow down your progress curve and because certain reflexes are so much different (in a bad way) between the two.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Tim

[John Eacott]

Hello Guys and Girls, I hold a fixed wing commercial, instrument, with about 400 hours in single pistons of varying make.

I'm ready to start training for a helicopter add-on, and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on flying a fixed wing on a short flight to and from another field where I'm looking to train on a Schweizer.

(snip)

So what do you think? Am I going to have issues swapping back and forth (especially early in my heli training)? Or is it a non-issue?

I think there is a big difference between SCK at 400 hours with no helicopter experience, and the responses from experienced aviators with oodles of hours.

I would be very reluctant to encourage SCK to be following his plan of action until he is settled in to helicopter flying: the risk of following an incorrect response is just too high at that stage of training.

[IFMU]

I learned to fly fixed wing first, in a PA12. With a private rating and less than 100 hours total time I transitioned to helicopter in an F28A Enstrom. I leaned both at the same airport, so I did not have to commute by air. I continued to fly fixed wing during my helicopter training, and never had an issue. Mainly I kept at both because I love to fly. You know what machine you are in, and you adjust. I say go with the airborne commute. Driving is so pedestrian.

IFMU

[SoCalKiwi]

Thank you everyone for your time and wisdom.
I'm going to go for it and commute by FW - as many of you have said its really a case of keeping your head in the game and staying aware of what machine you are operating. Cheers :ok:

[jetdriverbr]

I have done it in the past Citation in the morning, H269 in the evening without problems. Might as well get the muscle memory down now with an instructor watching over you rather than trying it later on your own.

[Aucky]

You can land a helicopter with forward speed BUT don't try and hover yer plank - that would likely be a bad end to your day :ok:

I've taught 3-4 students who have fixed wing licenses of about your experience (only on a handful occasions where i've known them to fly both the same day), and in truth usually they have been pretty good, airmanship has been developed to some extent, radio works a doddle, spatial awareness is pretty good and it leaves more capacity for learning, and to take in the differences/subtleties. I find the most common error is learning the difference in approach speed judgement coupled with the need for compensating for loss of translation lift etc during the approach which might be more 'hands-on' than the normal fixed wing approach(?). I wouldn't know as i've only flown rotary, but as I started - there's not too much problem initially if you find yourself not bringing back the speed enough on the approach with old fixed wing habits, as the technique will develop and that'll go, but don't take your new nicely perfected approach back into your plane! :=

[Bladecrack]

It ain't rocket science guys! I did my FW & Rotary PPL's at the same time and I've managed not to kill myself in the 15 years since... I can't remember for sure if I flew both types on the same day while training but I probably did, and from my rather faded memory the only thing I found to be an issue was making sure you had good airspeed control on finals in the FW. Anyway, have fun and let us know how you get on!!

BC

[Hairyplane]

I often commute by heli to display a variety of vintage fixed wing machines, each very different.

Its a different chip.

All I would say is that your initial heli lessons will leave you very tired indeed. Bear that in mind when you climb into your fixed wing for the journey home. Thats where your mistakes are likely to occur IMO. Do your checks twice. Dont be in any rush to get back.

HP

[JDJ]

I would 2nd Hairyplane's comment - it will be mentally quite tiring to start with, so take it carefully with any checks at the end of the day!

[rigidkid]

Think its a great idea .....if you have bedded in the FW skills...and you have buy the sounds of it...why not use the tools at your disposal to get the job done....like it! got my CPL(H) in oz and hoping to use FW to get around to do both work and build my FW hours for my FW Commercial....go well...:ok:

[herman the crab]

Being local some of the time don't forget the weather factor... unless you can get above or around the weather that can close down the route between the basin and the valley with the FW be careful if getting caught at VNY.

HTC

[rotorfan]

Posted by Aucky:
I find the most common error is learning the difference in approach speed judgement coupled with the need for compensating for loss of translation lift etc during the approach which might be more 'hands-on' than the normal fixed wing approach(?).Great observation. I was guilty of this very technique. I would fly down final at a steady 60 knots. My instructor, brand new with 200 hours, had never flown a plank. He asked why I "was burning it in". Huh? The final looked quite normal to me, and comfortable. There are "habits" in the FW world that don't readily translate to rotary flight. I expect transitioning from RW to FW is easier than the other way.