refulling with engine running

[stallwing]

Somebody knows if there is a refueling procedure (for B737 ) with one main engine running?????.......

I mean Boeing procedure or military procedure or for BBJ ??
or a special company procedure approved ???? or even other type trasportation-cargo airplane ....


tks............

[hval]

Link Here (http://navyaviation.tpub.com/14003/css/14003_224.htm)

The FCOM manual will more than likely have a procedure laid down for hot refuelling, including whether it is allowed or not.

I should write that please do not carry out hot refuelling procedures unless permitted by your organisation. If hot refuelling is permitted I am sure that your organisation will have a procdure in place. The procedure is also likely to have variations for each version of B737

[The Helpful Stacker]

Can I ask why a civil a/c would need to perform a hot refuel?

Would it be due to landing at an airfield that doesn't have the required GSE to support the a/c type whilst said a/c has a U/S APU?

[stallwing]

Can I ask why a civil a/c would need to perform a hot refuel?

Would it be due to landing at an airfield that doesn't have the required GSE to support the a/c type whilst said a/c has a U/S APU? yes :ok:

tks hval (http://www.pprune.org/members/220033-hval)
but I need a procedure for trasportation aircraft even military procedure ....

[AGS Man]

On a slightly different note back in the 70s the powers that be were asked to provide a procedure for refuelling 25 Kva aircraft generators whilst they were running. The usual things such as bonding and diesel powered rather than petrol were mentioned but the last bit was it must not be supplying power. It begs the question, why would you want to refuel it with the engine running if it was not supplying power!!!

[Moi/]

At a guess, i would do it as follows..

Aircraft arrives on chocks.
No 2 Engine Shutdown
A/C Steps to the R1 door
Refuel Connected & Started
No 2 Engine Oil levels checked etc / RH side of a/c walkround carried out.
Refuel completed & Disconnected
Crew member on board, R1 a/c steps removed, No 2 engine started.

No 1 Engine Shutdown
A/C Steps to L1 door
No 1 Engine Oil levels checked
LH side of a/c walkaround carried out
Crew member onboard, L1 a/c steps out. No 1 engine started.
Taxi out.

The key here would be that the minimum amount of people around the aircraft, with fire cover in attendance

[ArthurR]

Have refueled hunter aircraft, whilst engine running in idle, but these where combat refuels, refuel and re-arm.

[hval]

Moi,

You also have to include the following: -

1/ Park in location away from anything that could be destroyed if there were an explosion. Turn off engine on side of access.
2/ Deplane all unnecessary persons to safe location
3/ Establish exclusion zone (500 m diameter) minimum
4/ Ensure attendance of briefed and trained fire personnel with fire equipment (tenders and hand extinguishers)
5/ Ensure aircraft chocked
6/ Ensure aircraft is earthed
7/ Ensure access to fueling points is safe and will not produce fod
etc...

When embarking pax and crew after refueling complete, ensure engine near to access point is not running, unless it is considered safe to embark with engines running.

The above assumes that all persons are briefed prior to task taking place, as to hazards, risks and tasking. Tool Box talks can be emailed to those involved at the airfield prior to arrival. Take spares with you and brief them again on arrival. If translation required, ensure a translater is there (with the ability to translate technical speak).

Any crew remaining with aircraft must be properly clothed, and must have a safe route of exit.

All doors shut whilst refuelling takes place can save anyone that remains aboard. If there is a fire they can exit by the nearest "safe" exit.

I recommend that you take fire safe hand held radios with you so that all can communicate. probably four or five sets.

I could go on, but hopefully you will have some ideas from my notes.

Oh yes, think about a minimum of two tenders. One to attack any fire and the second to keep safe route of exit clear of fire and also any leaking fuel that flows towards safe exit route and fuselage

How are you checking for fuel contamination? How are you checking for accuracy of amount of fuel delivered?


If you go to the Following Link, (http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-GND_HAND-SEQ01.pdf) there are some useful pointers. I realise it is an Airbus document, but much is relevant.

[Fareastdriver]

There is a load of waffle about hot refuelling. I was refuelled rotors running both miltary and civil for some 43 years. During all that time I never saw or even heard about a fire breaking out when refuelling with jet fuel.
The onlr fire I know about was when one was deliberately started when making a Royal Navy training film involving refuelling a piston engined Whirwind.

[The Helpful Stacker]

There is a load of waffle about hot refuelling.

As an ex-TSW type I sort of agree with you (it can't be rocket science if they let 'mere' stackers do it) but regulations pertaining to hot refuelling of rotor a/c and those relating to non-rotor a/c are fairly different, even in the military. I can only imagine that the hill of regulations that pops up somewhere between RTRs of military a/c and hot refuelling of civil airliners is substantial and there for the lawyers as much as the operators.

I doubt the hot refuelling regs for civil airliners require said refueller to climb over a Nightsun and squeeze down the side of an in-use engine exhaust to carry out a refuel though!

[Harley Quinn]

There is a load of waffle about hot refuelling. I was refuelled rotors running both miltary and civil for some 43 years. During all that time I never saw or even heard about a fire breaking out when refuelling with jet fuel.

Maybe because of all the 'waffle'?

[NutLoose]

Fareastdriver, on the Wessex they stopped us being on intercom when doing engine running refuels as it had been worked out there was a serious amount of static about that could case an explosion, the fact that you were open line refuelling next to a hot exhaust didn't seem to bother them though....
Now Wessex refuels in the hover, that was interesting fun..

Sorry for the drift, back to the topic.

[salad-dodger]

As an ex-TSW type I sort of agree with you (it can't be rocket science if they let 'mere' stackers do it)
C Stores! :E

Engineers are valuable.

S-D

[CPTG747]

You put the JP-4 Fuel Direct into the engine inlet....Come on what kind of question is that.....Run your APU, you are in a BBJ.....

[jettison valve]

http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/dvdfiles/US/2001-09-05-US.pdf

Not exactly refueling with engine(s) running - but refueling always goes along with some "danger".
I also wonder about the frequent spillages through the vent tanks on the B747s. :\ If the spillage meets a hot surface one day... PUFF...!

Regards, J.V.

[Saintsman]

Make sure the bowser does not drive around the back of the aircraft with the engines running.

Or the pax bus...

[NutLoose]

http://frontierindia.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/wedgetail-refueling.jpg


;)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Engineers are valuable.

More likely you'd struggle to get engineers to deploy away from MOBs/EFIs to places where RTRs are useful!

I've never seen Osprey BA in 'rotund' sizing, which might be one reason I guess.

:E

[Fareastdriver]

Every day millions of untrained operatives put highly inflammable petrol in their cars. I have never heard of a forecourt fire. I understand that they have been, but not very many.

[Harley Quinn]

Basic aviation safety (or any type of safety) reduce risk to ALARP. Not hard just needs sensible precautions and a proper RA.

First question is 'Is it really necessary to engage in this activity?'

[Kluseau]

Every day millions of untrained operatives put highly inflammable petrol in their cars. I have never heard of a forecourt fire. I understand that they have been, but not very many.

As you say, a rarity, but they can happen:
Petrol station fire in Livingston - WestLothian Courier (http://www.westlothiancourier.co.uk/videos-pics/2008/10/13/petrol-station-fire-in-livingston-62405-22023125/)

Fire at Morrisons Petrol Garage - YouTube

[hval]

Fareastdriver,

There are just one or two differences between an aircraft and a car, not many I admit, just a few.

Civy requirements for safety are very, very different to military requirements. Why increase the risks when you are able do things effectively and more safely through use of simple planning and preparation.

You also have to remember the MOD has much experience at hot fuelling: this chap does not.

[AGS Man]

Fareastdriver
I appreciate what you say about thousands of unqualified refuellers... Last year a motorist realised his car was on fire on the A1 and continued another 2 miles so he could stop at the Biggleswade Sainsburys petrol station..... wait for it........Cos he knew that they would have a fire extinguisher there!!! Very nearly a qualifier for a Darwin award methinks!

[Fareastdriver]

I am trying to be rational, but!
1/ Park in location away from anything that could be destroyed if there were an explosion. Turn off engine on side of access.
2/ Deplane all unnecessary persons to safe location
3/ Establish exclusion zone (500 m diameter) minimum
4/ Ensure attendance of briefed and trained fire personnel with fire equipment (tenders and hand extinguishers)
5/ Ensure aircraft chocked
6/ Ensure aircraft is earthed
7/ Ensure access to fueling points is safe and will not produce fod
etc...

500 metres???. Where are you going to find airfield apron where there is 500 metres clearance. The fuel connections are airtight; fuel is normally pumped into aircraft by the ton without any sign of leakage. Why should an engine running on the other side have any effect?. The greatest chance of a fire is a wet start after the refuelling is finished. I have been on an Emirates 777 at Bangkok where the aircraft was refuelled. That was on a normal stand and only the cabin doors were opened.

As soon as one mentions refuelling with the engines running the hooters go, Elfin Safety goes into overdrive and the empire builders step in. Apart from ensuring that the live engine is not gassing somebody normal refuelling precautions are adequate because nothing is different.

Those of us who are old enough can remember French refuellers sitting on a wing pouring 100/130 into wing tanks with the inevitable Gauloise lit up.

[ArthurR]

Fareastdriver Those of us who are old enough can remember French refuellers sitting on a wing pouring 100/130 into wing tanks with the inevitable Gauloise lit up.

Not only the French, the Italians were good at it as well. :E

[Harley Quinn]

FED, the issue is not leakage, it is the fuel vapour displaced by your statement
fuel is normally pumped into aircraft by the ton without any sign of leakageFuelling is a common and essential activity. It involves tons of potentially dangerous fluids being transferred between containers. It is not inconceivable that the correct conditions for inadvertent ignition of the fuel will occur. It is reasonnable to reduce the sources of potential ignition.

From the Airbus document linked by hval (it does not mention 500m isolation zone or many of his other 'precautions' as it only deals with fuelling with pax on board) the following bit tells you why hot engines and fuelling products should be avoided when possible.

Auto-ignition can occur, if the fuel temperature reaches 220oC (428oF), for
example if fuel spills over hot parts of an engine, or hot brakes
An external source can also ignite fuel, if the fuel temperature reaches 40oC
(104oF). This threshold is lower, if fuel is sprayed over the ignition source.
Therefore, the higher the refueling pressure, the higher the risk.There will be times when hot refuelling has to be done. It would be foolish in the extreme to consider it a normal part of airfield operations. It carries additional risks that should be assessed and mitigated- essentially apply some common sense. Loss of aircraft due to fuel vapour ignition has occurred in flight. That it hasn't occurred on the ground may possibly be due to the Elfin Safety going into overdrive.

[hval]

For Health & Safety reasons, all risks have to be managed and reduced to zero where possible. That is what Health & Safety is about. it does not matter how low the probability of an explosion will occur, it is the consequences of an explosion that have to be managed.

As for the 500m exclusion zone, have you seen what happens when tonnes of contained explosive go "bang"? 500m may not be enough, it may be too much.

[Harley Quinn]

Just out of curiosity I had a look at other situations where hot fuelling occurs- the most obvious was motorsport so was surprised to see the F1 guys stopped doing this 3 years ago. Although the fuels are far more volatile than Kerosine the key factor seems to be systems to take vented fuel from the ullage space away from the vehicle were employed.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Harley Quinn - US forces use a 'closed loop' system for their rotors turning refuelling installations which recovers vapour from the ullage.

[Faithless]

Only pres- sure hot refueling is performed.
I beg to differ as my organisation Hot refuels with low pressure! No names no pack drill:oh:

[glad rag]

Engine running refueling is for pansies, real chock's do the oils!!!!!!

:zzz: