Any Borneo Whirlwind veterans here?

[Tiger_mate]

I am doing an oil painting of Whirlwind HAR 10 in Borneo and I am always very particular about research to get it right. However amongst the many reference photographs that I have accumulated, a question exists:
http://www.aviastar.org/foto/west_whirlwind.jpg

1) Between the front undercarriage oleos is a rectangular box. Some have it and others do not. Does anybody know what it is?

2) I am not using the 'tropical nose' but there also appears to be at least 2 versions of the standard nose door, one with a larger grill then that used by SAR UK based helicopters. Is this right or a fiqment of my imagination?

3) If anybody has photographs of camouflaged Whirlwinds in operation, I would love to see them.

The painting in progress (without the said box)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-May-2012/984204-20May12.jpg
All comments/contributions most welcome.

[sycamore]

The `box` is the Decca aerial cover,and not usually fitted to non-SAR aircraft /trainers at Ternhill/Valley. The original nose-door had the larger grill panels; then came the `sand-filter cement-mixer` nose door.Then came in `69 the more solid door without the grills.This was a better all weather door,and remained in Service to the end in `82..
Just a point,the WW has a noticeable `bent-back`on all Mks from about 5,and so it is noticeable more or less from all angles except directly above/below. Depending on which Squadron (103/110/28/84/225/230) colours/letters you decide on as always the paint/size of individual colours/reg/Sqdn/zaps were all different,as different Sqdns were in different theatres/Commands/Groups,etc.Try the Rotary threads,or Flypast `Nostalgia` and search Confrontation`...

[Fareastdriver]

Absolutely right. The Whirwind in the painting should have a cranked boom. The starboard oleo has the twin schermully flare mounting. On 230 Sqn aircraft the was also a Zwikky pump. Two Gurkas could pump a drum of fuel in in four minutes.

[Fareastdriver]

Her are a couple taken at Sepulot. The first one is in the beginning of 1966 and the second one shortly before 230 Sqn returned tp the UK.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-1-2010_002_1.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/1-1-2010_008.jpg

I'm afraid the (Agfa) slides fade with time, You have got to remember to hang the underslung hook wires underneath the fuselage.

[Tiger_mate]

Awesome response; thanks guys. the tail on the painting does have a 'crank' in it but the tone of a portion of the shaft cover has not picked up well on the photograph and therefore the dend is non-too evident at the moment. The photographs are especially usefull. The donor photograph was mirrored, so the exhaust removed and door inserted and potential gotchas for me are anything that was not the same left and right, such as an inclined pylon that is significantly offset such as the Pumas. Another potential is it / did they concerns the upper occulting beacon as some but not all photos show a beacon just aft of the MGB, Optical illusions or a mod state? I am trying to demonstrate a generic aircraft of the time at a jungle air-head rather then an airframe of a particular sqn. the shed towards the right is a maintenance hangar and I may well put an airframe with a tropical nose on dispersal this side of that. It is but early days yet but my aspiration is to match the quality of my last project within four months, and this was the last result:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-May-2012/984204-liberator.jpg
But this time it is the Far East Whirlwinds turn for the spotlight.

[Fareastdriver]

The anti-col was a mod. My first picture does not have them but the second had it behind the main rotor on the gearbox housing.

[Blacksheep]

Copyright material removed by Blacksheep

[Fareastdriver]

The top picture XR 456 is post confrontation as it was operated by 230 Sqn until they left Borneo in late 1966. Being ex RAFG you can see the Zwikky pump mounting on the lower starboard oleo.
The next picture was definately confrontation time because XP 329 was a reverse swop and came with 230 to Odiham.
The last is, I believe, XD183. The was the highest hours Whirwind and most of it was in the Far East. It went out as a Whirwind 2, came back to be converted to a Whirlwind 4 then came back again to be converted to a Whirwind 10. It had over 5,000 hrs on it and we were pushing the idea of flying it back to the UK. Unfortunately it had an engine rundown during Basatu Padu, the last major exercise in Malasia, and got bent in a coconut plantation. It was probably repairable but the MU was running down so it was presented to the Singapore or Malayasian Air Force as a metalwork trainer.

[lauriebe]

The serial of the cab in the last photo is not that clear but looks to be XR484. Served only on 103 apparently and went to the RN, for fire practice at Lee on Solent, 14.2.77

[Fareastdriver]

XR 484 was not on the strength of 110 Sqn at the time the picture was taken. I was the Squadron's maintenance test pilot so I would know from my log book. As far as I can zoom in it is an XD number and that makes it XD183, the only XD we had.
However;-------- The picture is taken from 103 Sqn's hanger and 110 sqn looks as if it is a weekend or stand down so it is possible that it is a picture of a 103 Squadrons aircraft taken outside their hanger. The problem is to ascertain whether the flash on th tail is a; 110 Sqn Rampant Lion or b :103 Sqn Black Swan.
A Black swan means that I do not know which one it is.

[Fareastdriver]

I will take this opportunity to put forward a claim for a World Record for the number of people that have got airborne in a single engined helicopter.
In June 1969 a squadron QFI was supervising a new pilot on an exercise in Grik, Northern Malaya. Coming over the trees to the landing site the engine did the Gnome rundown trick but our gallant hero took over control and scraped a high speed engine off. There was no further damage but the engine had been cooked; a bright blue turbine disc suggested that.
Things got going and a couple of days later a new engine arrived on site with C/Tech Brooker and the Singapore Rolls Royce rep.. I, as the maintainance test pilot, stayed behind to do the neccessary.
We had had a few problems with engine rundowns so it was suggested that we trial this engine in the same atmospheric conditions as the rundown to see what effect it had on the engine. What we were going to do was the full acceptance engine checks on a Cat 5 cooked engine.
It started OK, the ground idle and acceleration to rotor operating speed was fine.
There then came the problem of accelerating it sufficiently to do the stall margin test. For those that are unfamiliar with the Gnome, sorry, too difficult to explain.
We asked the resident Gurka battalion if the could help with bods to weigh it down. No problem, they sent a platoon over. Sufficient Gurkas were put in for the stall margin tests; more were put in for the red line checks and then we packed it out for the topping check.

Not enough people; it still got into a 6 inch hover.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/WhirlwindTiedown.jpg
XN 126, an ex Queens Flight HCC6 lifted into the air on the 22nd June1969 with Twenty Six troops plus Two operating crew, Twenty Eight in Total.

I claim a S55/Whirlwind/single engined helicopter personnel lifting record unless you can find some liar with an Mi 4.

[Tiger_mate]

Note to self:

The next you are going to paint Royal Air Force aircraft; as for reference photographs! I would have preferred air-to-air shots such as those above.

However there is to base to contend with and ground equipment appropriate to type. Any GCs here?

[Blacksheep]

The bottom photo could be 103 Sqn, either way its post-confrontation around 1970, but if its the overall appearance he's after, the livery is still typical.

engine rundown during Basatu PaduIts Bersatu Padu in Malay, meaning "Complete Unity" in English. Exercise Bersatu Padu was designed to demonstrate the British capability of reinforcing the Malaysian and Singaporean armed forces, initially within 24 hours and building to massive force - as we had guaranteed in the Five Year defence treaty covering our withdrawal from east of Suez in 1971. Since shipping out Whirlwinds wasn't practical, a single Whirlwind was shipped and reassembled outside the C130 hangar to show how we'd bring them in and how long it would take to get them in the air. Then 103 and 110 provided the helicopter support to the exercise and 72 Sqn joined in from Odiham with their Wessex's as a follow-on. As for the rest of us who were based in Singapore, we went about our normal duties without being allowed to participate. (For the purposes of the exercise we had to pretend we weren't really there).

My own function from 1969 to 1971 was as a Gnome Engine Fuel Control System Specialist (A.Fitt.E; Q-AHW-PE) based in the workshops. [For the record, we never found a genuine fault in either the Computer or the Throttle Actuator on bench tests. Routine compressor washes seemed to make the Gnome reliable later in the seventies and by the time I was on 32 Sqn at Northolt, run-downs were virtually unknown.] I also covered the Torquemeter modification, for which we built a nice "Heath Robinson" test rig for applying static torque to the transmitter. The amount of twist applied to the rotor shaft at full torque was quite an eye-opener. :ooh:

[Croqueteer]

I notice the pic of XP329 has a sgt pilot. Could it be Dave Cramp?

[Fareastdriver]

Unlikely. We had Dave Cramp and Jim Lawn on 230 and as I posted before XP329 was not on our squadron's strength at that time. There was no stortage of NCO pilots out there then; my old Provost T1 instructor was there as a Master Pilot flying Single Pins; so 103 and 110 would have had their share down in Kuching.

[Herod]

Nice set of pics, thanks. Borneo was supposed to be my first tour. I was going through the course at Tern Hill, and was slated to join 230. When Sukarno heard I was coming, he capitulated, and I joined 230 at Odiham. I was with them a couple of months when the "Man From the Ministry" came down and told us we were over establishment. I managed to get a posting to the Wessex and started my overseas tour on 78 in Aden. A little junglie experience later, though: I was part of the 72 detachment for Bersatu Padu.

[Fareastdriver]

Smack hands. It was 'Bersatu Padu'. It says so in my log book.

[sycamore]

I`m pretty certain the 3rd piccy is XR484,by lightening the screen the numbers stay `dark`,and it`s got a `Mucky Duck`/Black Swan on the tail.However,484 spent most of it`s time dressed in yellow,along with 482/3,XP411,XJ411 and possibly XR458,in my time up to `67.,XR483 was `X`, so `Y` would not be out of place,although it looks to have reverted to SH duties,and had a session with the `painters & decorators`,so it`s probably 68 or later.There are also some piccies over on `www.singas.co.uk`,if you trawl the site..
With regard to the pic.of XP329,that is a 225 Sdn a/c,as evidenced by the `zap` on the nose,it does have the decca box,but there was no Decca chain in that part of the FE,so all the kit would have been `binned`,same with the HF( could talk to anywhere,but,nowhere useful,except BBC World service..!).
The pilot may have been F/S, Fred Ayris,F/S Ron King,or Sgt M Williams,depending on the date/place of the photo.

ED.Anybody remember when `one-piece` white `bone-domes` became `de riguer` at home/abroad...?

[India Four Two]

There then came the problem of accelerating it sufficiently to do the stall margin test. For those that are unfamiliar with the Gnome, sorry, too difficult to explain. Fareastdriver, Don't tantalize all of us non-Gnome Techies! Try and explain what a run down is and what your tests involved, please. Also, how much over gross were you with the 26 Ghurkas on board? Following on from some of the comments on this thread, what was the reason for the cranked tail-boom on the later Whirlwinds? I cannot find an answer on the web. Sorry for the run-on style. For some reason, I cannot get 'returns' to show up.

[Tiger_mate]

Designers usually design helicopters so that the hub of the tail is in line (in flight) with the torque of the main rotor gearbox to avoid a rolling couple. A rolling couple at its extreme would mean flying one wing low all the time in balanced flight. Example, take a piece of A4 paper and fold it into thirds. Aplly torque in opposition, or pull the short ends apart and see what happens in the middle. Take another piece of A4 and fold it in half. Apply the same 'torque' and of course no twist develops. This is the reason why conventional helicopters land one wheel low at slow speeds because said 'roll' has developed when the gearboxes are out of alignment.

[Fareastdriver]

We used HF in Sabah on 230 Sqn. 4469 USB (?) The airwaves would resound with "Butcher Butcher Butcher, this is Baker Baker Baker". You were supposed to pass a position report whenever you left an LZ but you were very unlkely to get through. Quite often there would be heavy breakthrough from activity in Viet Nam. On one occasion some worthy was trying to pass a position report to Butcher and this American voice came up.
"GET OFF THIS GODDAMMNED FREQUENCY! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A WAR ON?"
"Yes; actually I do. But we're winning ours."

For the benefit of India Four Two and the risk of boring a load of ex Whirwind bods to tears here goes.

The aircraft was probably around 10,000lbs, 2,200lbs overweight; but no difference in stresses compared with a tie down base.

The Saga of Stall Margin checks on the Gnome.

Those that fly helicopters powered by the GE T58/de.H/RR Gnome will know that it has a ten stage axial compressor with three stages of variable stator vanes. The angle of these vanes is changed by a fuel pressure powered actuator to suit the RPM of the engine. The faster the engine goes the more the vanes open up to improve compressor performance and as it slow down they are closed up so give the front stages a better bite at the air. There is a RPM point at which the actuator starts working as the revs rise and another point at a higher RPM where it starts working as the revs fall. They found that engines were stalling even though the actuators had closed correctly. This was put down to general corrosion and wear and tear. To over come this it was necessary to ensure that the engine would not stall during and at a certain level below the actuators operating range. This was called the Stall Margin.


It must have been a de Havilland problem because with all my knowledge of T58 operations they do not seem to suffer. It first arose at Tern Hill in the days when places like Sheffield and the Potteries were going full blast and the haze layer went up to 4,000 ft.. To ascertain how badly the compressor was eroded a procedure known as the Stall Margin Check was incorporated.

The aircraft was strapped down to a Tie Down base. The aircraft was started and as the pilot accelerated the engine the RPM at which the actuator commenced its travel was noted. The engine (and Rotor) was then accelerated to about 20,000 RPM and then slowly decelerated until the actuator stared closing again. This was your actuator range check. The Gnome had a built in electric fuel shut off valve tied in with the overspeed protection so this was jumped into a cable of which the other end had a box with a big button. This button would stop the engine; instantaneously. This would have been mounted before the runs started so the engine was shutdown using it as the check.

The engine was started again and accelerated to 20,000 RPM. Whilst the engine was kept at this level the guide vane operating lever would have a locking sleeve attached to it to prevent it being moved by the actuator. So now the engine was running with the vanes locked in the high speed position. The engine was now decelerated slowly; through the two actuator operating RPMs and then below. It would then reach a point where the engine would stall. The Chief Tech in the left hand seat would press his stop button the and pilot would drop the lever and pull off the HP cock as a backup. Should both of them be too slow the engine RPM would disappear left and the PTIT gauge would disappear right. This was not unknown.

IIRC a minimum of 1,400 RPM was required below the RPM at which the actuator started to move. Any thing from Zero to 800 RPM was common.

As a result of doing innumerable checks my confidence in the Gnome overspeed protection was not very high which is probably why it was isolated on the aircraft. I had several occasions where the electrics didn’t work the second time but though practice and knowing what was going on I saved the engine. When the engine went THUMP a very switched on Chief Tech Heatherington could stop the engine before the ‘U’ but other Chief Techs did not seem to fully realise what was going on. The practice of having a unofficial maintenance test pilot helped as he did all the tie downs and air tests. A Joe just pulled out of the crew room would have got away with it most times but if something had gone wrong, as was proven, you lost the engine.

[D120A]

Thank you F.E.D., you didn't bore me to tears - in fact I had forgotten the detail of almost all of that after 45 years, and it all came back! Your post surely is the definitive historical record of the stall margin checks on the Gnome.

It should be printed off and placed in the aircraft in the RAF Museum. :ok:

[teeteringhead]

Used to have a lot of "zero" stall margins on 78 Sqn Wessex in Sharjah - sand erosion being the problem there.

But at least we had two engines! (both Gnomes for the uninitiated)

[India Four Two]

Fareastdriver,
Thanks very much. Most informative and fascinating. I had no idea about the variable stator vanes in the Gnome.

I have to say I'm glad I didn't know any of this information when I first became acquainted with the Whirlwind. I was sitting in a dinghy off Bridlington, while a Leconfield HAR 10 hovered over my head. I do remember thinking at the time 'I hope he doesn't have an engine failure right now!'

[Rosevidney1]

Wasn't the fact that early Whirlwinds suffered from blade sailing the cause for the redesign?

[Harley Quinn]

Or, maybe changing the engine, transmission and main rotor gearbox on the Westland product altered the couple between tail rotor and mrgb as Tiger Mate describes?

[Fareastdriver]

I agree with Tiger Mate. The Whirlwind 4 and onwards had the cranked boom because of the rolling couple. The tailskid was also a lot stronger.

For those interested in the fate of various Whirlwinds I had previously posted the end of XR 478's flying career.

http://www.pprune.org/where-they-now/441256-f-lt-ronald-chunky-lord.html

[Tiger_mate]

Gents; your assistance both through these pages and direct has been awesome for which I thank you. I am making good progress with the painting but have hit a brick wall when it comes to inside the cabin of a Whirlwind. I want to depict an appropriately dressed crewman at the door with a hint of the inside detail (hence the white area in the door). Any pics of the same would be most welcome; I understand that a clear floor was the order of the day but need info on sound proofing or interior structure if the same as the Wessex.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2012/984204-WC28MAY12.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

sound proofing


Ha ha ha ha. There wasn't any. The cabin was clean; the only gesture towards flight safety was that the seat belts were left attached to the wall when the seats were removed. The only seat that I can remember was the three seater that went across the front of the cabin. Troops; if they wanted to strap had to sit on the floor. Most didn't bother. It was only late 1966 that we carried a crewman on every trip; before that he would stay at the base and act as Movements. Most of the time we could not afford to carry a crewman; there were too many troops to move.

He, or a couple of Gurkas would sit with there legs dangling over the sill. At that time a crewman would have a two piece flying helmet with a silver finish, and most would have scrounged an Australian light green flying suit Gurkas wore jungle hat, drab green kit and the famous green jungle boots.

I have a picture of a typical lift out of a DZ. It will, however, take me some time to find it.

Watch this space.

[Cornish Jack]

FED - the coupling for the variable stator actuator was (I believe) a pin through a fork-end (in simplistic terms). The significance was that on a Friday evening return to Tern Hill from Valley, one George K decided to make it a 'sporting arrival' - low, fast (for a WW!) run-in downwind, pull up for a torque turn and gently down to finish off the week. Unfortunately, and unknown to GK, the coupling pin had detached itself en-route and the application of collective at the appropriate moment produced a most eye-catching outpouring of flame and smoke and a subsequent relieved engagement with terra firma. :ooh:Very spectacular and almost as exciting as the day we discovered that it was possible to install the WW tail rotor the wrong way round!!:eek:

[David Billings]

Tiger Mate:

More pictures of Whirlwinds and some of bases used, on Key Publishing "Historic Aviation" under the thread "Confrontation - know your enemy, was it Soekarno ?"

See: Confrontation - Know your enemy, was it Soekarno ? - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=89891)

The No. 1 enemy was considered by many of us who were on the things as "The Gnome".....

The pilot in the light green flying suit in dayglo XR456 looks very nuch like George Kelson to me, the inventor of a particular "Donkey" name for the horrible, round, "kind of" similar to, Luncheon meat sandwiches made by the cook at Nanga Gaat for our box lunches....

Best of luck with the painting.

DB - Ex-F/E Crewman 110 Sqdn.

[Gumpied]

Very interesting subject. I was a crewman on 110/103 Squadrons at Labuan, with lots of time at Bario, before returning to UK and the F/E course (Hastings and C-130K) This was June 1964 to June 1965, does this tie in with anyone else? Flew with Chunky Lord several times.:ok:

[rotorfossil]

The Gnome engine stall was a bit more complicated than it seemed. Sometimes air got into the high pressure fuel system and ended up in the IGV actuator causing sluggish action and a stall if power increases were done in a hurry. Also interaction with the DH designed engine computor was another source of woe. As originally designed, if the engine suffered a stall, the governor sensed the T4 rise and shut the throttle to the minimum flow which would likely un-stall the engine. Unfortunately, by now the pilot seeing the loss of power would grab the manual throttle selector (if he had time) and wind up the power. If successful, he would then go home and snag the computor for a run down. The fix for the perceived computor rundown problem was to fit the selectable flight idle stop which prevented the N1 going below 19000 odd RPM in a rundown. Unfortunately this guaranteed an engine burn out (and I had two) in the event of a stall as the computor couldn't shut the throttle.
After RAF Whirlwind flying, I went to Leavesden just before they shut the plant and the team who used to do the computor work dug out their test set and tested a computor for an ex RAF Whirwind for us. They confirmed that large number of the /5 computors returned to the factory were actually fully serviceable. The problem was that the signalling circuits (N1,N2, T1,T4 and throttle valve angle) were all sensitive to damp, corroded terminals and poor connections leading to apparent computor problems. I had one where the T4 signal was intermittent. When it disconnected, the computor continued OK but when it re-connected, the computor sensed this as a rapid T4 rise and shut the throttle. That took two computor changes and a complete system diagnostic to work out.
A lot of the above experience only came to light right at the end of RAF Whirlwind flying and continuing into civil operation.

[Noyade]

hit a brick wall when it comes to inside the cabin Now, it's just a thought mind you, but what about maybe obliterating the interior with bodies? Or is it too late based on your progress?

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/3092/984204wc28may12.jpg (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/984204wc28may12.jpg/)
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4817/img686.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/img686.jpg/)

Either way, it looks like it will be a fine painting when finished. :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

I have just seen the rope. On a roping trip the crewman will be by the door, looking forward as the aircraft is approaching the Roping Zone. The troops will still be sitting on the floor the other side of the cabin. A free air hover in Borneo will mean that a maximum of four troops will be in the back. The only people I ever roped in were SAS; Brit/Aus/NZ; so their faces would be blackened. You would only see a couple of them in the cabin in that view.

[teeteringhead]

The significance was that on a Friday evening return to Tern Hill from Valley, one George K decided to make it a 'sporting arrival' - low, fast (for a WW!) run-in downwind, pull up for a torque turn and gently down to finish off the week. Not George K but Don H (later - incredibly - CAS RNZAF!) unless it happened twice! (and IIRC it was an into-wind quickstop)

I was a passenger down the back with the girly dentist and we'd just flown low level all the way back from Valley .....:eek:

.... as we slithered to a halt, ATC (in "sharp as a beachball" mode) asked what had happened. Don H replied "the bl:mad:dy donk's crook" or similar, and the poor girls in the tower didn't know what he meant!

Must have been late '69, early '70 .... I might work it out from logbook; as pax I wouldn't have logged the return, but I probably flew the TH-VY leg. Course mate in RHS for the VY-TH retired as a 4-star ........

And of course the engineers tried to blame the aircrew - who should have noticed the lack of locking wire/split pin/castellated nut/all of the above on the walkround!!

Edited to add: looks like 5th Feb 1970 in XP 341. That was a Thursday too so maybe it did happen twice :confused: And the next day was solo EOLs :eek: in XP 355 .....

[Herod]

Teeteringhead, I'm glad you mentioned solo EOLs. There's another thread somewhere that seemed to suggest they were only flown dual. My logbook shows I flew thirty minutes solo EOLs in XD163 on 6th Oct '66. I was beginning to think age was twisting my memory.

[teeteringhead]

Herod - they were flown solo until the Whirlwind went out of basic training at Shawbury in 1979. When the Gazelle began to be used for basic, student solo EOLs were binned - after much heated discussion on both sides.

I recall a number of us crowding into the tower at Ternhill to watch the very very last basic student solo EOLs - Tom T was the QHI and IIRC one of the I** M*********s (there are two!) was the stude.

In the discussions, I remember John G W (no hyphen!) - who was in favour - saying words to the effect: I know the Americans wouldn't and the Israelis would - whose camp would you rather be in!

[Cornish Jack]

Teeteringhead - absolutely correct, of course!!:O:O
The joys of a memory which is receding rather faster than the hairline! Ah well, I did at least remember to get up today ... I think:sad:
PS - I'vejust been scanning some old slides from that era, a couple of which , at first glance, appeared to be a flock of birds. Once they were enlarged they were rather poor shots of a large 'formation' (same way, same day) of Sioux and Whirlwinds. Wracking the few remaining brain cells dredged up a faint memory of some sort of mass flypast celebrating some particular occasion but details are totally absent! Anyone remember this?

[Tiger_mate]

The painting adventure is moving into camp. The layout will be based upon Nanga Gaat, but not a slave to reality. I am going to enlarge the maintenance shed and include another Whirlwind (with tropical nose) on the ground with some engineers. Any photos that would assist in this crusade would be welcome. A question: it appears that 40gall drumstock was the order of the day and the drums were burgundy with blue ends. Was that a particular fuel company colour scheme? ie one would expect Shell to be red and yellow, BP green and yellow etc etc
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jun-2012/984204-WC2JUN12.jpg

Painting the jungle makes you brain dead.

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC, and I'm pretty sure about this the fuel drums were black. The tops were dirty white with a light blue stripe for Avtur or a red one for Avgas.

At Sepulot we used to lob our old drums into the river as there was no way of getting them back to Labuan because the river flowed south to Indonesia. The Whirlwind being quite a good oil drum herder. The locals used to fish them out, use the dregs of Avtur for cooking, lighting etc., and use the drums for storage, building or whatever. Then a Sioux detachment arrived when they built a Gurka Company HQ. Allofasudden there were muffled thumps downstream as their cooking fuel detonated. The next day saw two charred remains of longhouses which took a couple of days to rebuild. Nobody hurt, fortunately, but they learned the reason for different colours.

During the last months of confrontation when the Navy took over Sepulot the practice of throwing the old drums into the river stopped. The locals now had to buy the drums and contents off the Petty Officers. A full, unopened drum was available at $50. My second picture above was taken when I went back to Sepulot because both Wessexs pictured were U/S and I was told this by my groundcrew.

[Tiger_mate]

Gents; were there any vehicles inside Nang Gaat Camp beyond a Trolley-Ack? - Aircraft tug? I am looking for things to add interest to the ground plan, although I suspect the area was so small that walking was the only way. Cycles perhaps?

[Fareastdriver]

There was bound to be a helistart landrover; airlifted in if neccessary. This was a 24 V version with a platform above the tilt for servicing aircraft. IIRC the ladder went up the nearside at the rear.

[Tiger_mate]

Would that have been a SWB model? Series 2 or Lightweight? I am familiar with helistart of the eighties.

Air Force blue or green?

[David Billings]

....was by Shank's Pony.

That's during the times I went there '66 to '67, to when it was packed up.

I cannot recall any motorised vehicle be it four-wheeled or two-wheeled at Nanga Gaat at all, either on the RAF camp or KOSB/Gurkha camp. The place was too small for that. Good clue would be that Main Street between the accomodation huts and also the bridge over the mini-Sungei between the RAF camp and the Army camp was only two-man wide.

DB

[Tiger_mate]

There was a 'hangar' in which a Whirlwind with blades folded could be inserted. What provided the muscle power to get helicopters from the single adjacent HLS along the albeit very short (1.5 aircraft length) taxi track into the hangar?

In the absence of helistart I assume one of the quite small hand operated motorised tugs that looked like something you buff the floors on a bull night with. (only with wheels x3)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jun-2012/984204-WC5JUL12.jpg

[sycamore]

T-M, if you wanted to move an aircraft at Nanga ,then you `asked` the local RSM to provide a `working party`....No W-P,no helo,,,simples....
See DB`s pics of NG on his link....other places had Landrovers,some of which are probably still doing the `rounds`,like,Iraq,Afg,MPA...!!

[Tiger_mate]

Apparently the small tractor unit that I am expecting any forward operating base to have as a minimum is called a "Donkey" in groundcrew circles, and consisted of what appears to be a lump of concrete with a small petrol engine and three wheels steered by a broom stick type controller attached to the single castored forward wheel. It also appears to have been a cow to start and sqns were known to use a little avpin to encourage it!!!!! Gutsy move if true :=

[Fareastdriver]

Thirteen years as an SH pilot with the RAF; two tours in the UK and two in the Far East. Never ever saw one of those. Possibly it a deck handling donkey used by the FAA and brought ashore to NG.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Apparently the small tractor unit that I am expecting any forward operating base to have as a minimum is called a "Donkey" in groundcrew circles, and consisted of what appears to be a lump of concrete with a small petrol engine and three wheels steered by a broom stick type controller attached to the single castored forward wheel. It also appears to have been a cow to start and sqns were known to use a little avpin to encourage it!!!!! Gutsy move if true


Also known as a 'Yellow Peril'. - When ground equipment was painted yellow.

Aaron.

[Tiger_mate]

Can anyone confirm if the long prefabricated building the the left of the aircraft shed (not big enough to be a hangar!) was an accomodation block? I never did Borneo but I did do Belize and blocks such as this were broken down into 4 man rooms. I need to include some element of detail but am unsure of what they were. Nang Gaat - Borneo.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2012/984204-WC10JUN12.jpg

Also would the landing surface have been stones or tarmac/concrete.

[Fareastdriver]

Looks like a super picture coming up. I would suggest leaving the nose of the grounded Whirlwind the same as the airbourne one.
I never went to NG but I would think it would be unlikely to be concrete or tarmac; more like crushed gravel or stone.

Looking at websites of NG at the time it looked like scraped pads.

[Tiger_mate]

It may be that this one spot adjacent to the hangar would be tarmac or concrete in order to manouvre the helicopter by people-power into the shed, with other dispersed spots - gravel pads. Anybody know if proper chocks or bastardised palette corners were used as chocks. Puma guys will know what I mean with the palettes. If anybody has a photo of a stripped down 105mm gun; I would welcome eyes-on a great deal.

[David Billings]

Tiger Mate:

The building by the side of the corrugated iron hangar was the HQ/Administration building and it bore the "Station" sign board proudly proclaiming "R.A.F. Nanga Gaat" and had the rampant tiger of 110 Squadron on it. I know the sign was there because I repainted it in my spare time. When I was there the Gaat C.O. was a Flt. Lt and the building housed his office, the comms room and the administrative staff. That was a "permanent" type building made of sawn timber, not planed but rough sawn and it was stained brown or creosoted.

One of the amazing things at the Gaat was the display board on the side of the hangar with the weird insects that existed there, including flying lizards with folding wings...weird.

The only other "permanent" machined timber building was the Airmen's accomodation and Stores building and Mess hall which was closer to the river on Main Street. All other accomodation buildings were basha's with atap rooves and split bamboo sides and split bamboo floors nailed together with roofing nails.

The helicopter "pads" were a mix of stones, mud, PSP and some concrete and were reached by sawn planking boardwalks all over the helicopter pad area. You had to watch your footing.

See the Key Publishing thread "Confrontation", which I referenced in an earlier post there are quite a few pics of the pads.

DB...

[Tiger_mate]

Thanks David; can I assume that with regards to the HQ building it had a walkway under the roof on this side: ie offices set back into the building. Any other memories of the same would be helpful, such as a ganga bush that once lived in the Sgts Mess in Belize which raised a smile every time a policeman walked by. Can I assume that the GC dress of the day was a pair of shorts and boots and little else?

[Bill4a]

I was never at Nanga Gaat but dress in 64/5 on the line was shorts and sandals at Lundu & Kuching, but if flying was long kd and jungle boots. Only the zobs had flash Aussie flying suits :}:}

[Dave B]

Just found this thread, don,t know why it does not have its own main heading, but I have some Borneo photos. that may be of interest.
First is a Whirlwind from Simangang at hill station Jambo.http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab221/MountKenya/Jambocopy.jpg

[David Billings]

Tiger Mate...

The HQ Building had a Verandah about six feet (sorry, "two Metres") wide. I seem to recall the Western end of the verandah had an office which was the width of the building, which was entered from the verandah.

Dress at The Gaat was very casual. Everybody knew one another and what their purpose was there. Only the "Base Commander" wore a K.D. shirt with his rank, he was the only officer on a one year tour there, all other officers were transients and all would normally be aircrew based at Seletar, Singapore. Aircrew officers and "airmen aircrew" arriving for their one month rotational tour would be in flying suits anyway and rarely wore K.D. shirts when not flying, except for some Flight Commanders, that is. Aircrew officers off-duty walked around in shorts and singlets or casual shirts. Dress usually was K.D. shorts and a civvy short sleeved shirt if going to a meal for instance. Displays of rank were not always on show.

The Line guys wore K.D. shorts, K.D. socks rolled down and S.D. Shoes (black), not boots. The Army "runner" type fabric ankle boots with rubber soles were popular and the Army freely gave those out together with their nice good quality grey wollen socks, I used to wear that combination. Some guys wore thongs (no not that kind), the kind called flip-flops... but that was frowned on due to the danger of foot injury.

See the "Confrontation" thread on Key, there are pics of the Line guys working on the beasts.

The thing about The Gaat and indeed other detachment places was that with the spirit that existed there the choppers were always serviceable as the guys willingly worked until they were "S". Same thing in Bahrein on the 6 Argosies of the detachment, they were always serviceable. It was the nearest thing to the old type "Squadron" life for a lot of the guys even though by then the RAF had what they called "Centralised Servicing" where personnel worked on different Squadron numbers with different a/c types.

DB...

[G.O.G.]

Tiger Mate
I was stationed at Nanga Gaat for many periods between October 1965 and August 1966 when I was one of the small party who closed Nanga Gaat down. I have some old slides of Nanga Gaat both from the air and on the ground, personnel and Helicopters, Whirlwind, Belvederes and I believe an Army Scout. My work dress was KD shorts and flip flops, and night time attire was a sarong and shirt for drinkies in the Anchor bar. Between work and drinkies we used to play volley ball every evening. When I first arrived at the Gaat there was a Navy landrover left over from when they were there, Its anybodies guess why it was there as it could go nowhere, It was finally removed by the Navy but thats another story. My nickname was Swede I was a 19 year old engine mechanic at the time. If you would like some photos please pm your e-mail address and I will forward some to you. Will shortly be putting the photos on here as have photos of fellow staff at Nanga Gaat whos names escape me. Oh by the way the pads were psp with a large log at the rear of the pans which was a fixed chock.Finally also have photos of the Blue Peter team who paid us a visit in 1966.

[Dave B]

Another shot of 225 Squadron Whirlwind from Simangang, working with the New Zealand Army.

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab221/MountKenya/th_Heli120001JPG.jpg?t=1339514346

[Dave B]

Shot of 225 Squadron Whirlwind departing from hill station Jambu.http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab221/MountKenya/th_Kuching124000005.jpg?t=1339514427

[Old-Duffer]

A slight Thread drift for which I make no apology. 110 took over Nanga Gaat from the RN and hence the name of the pub which was there. There is a story regarding the 'nine holer' to which one adjourned for obvious reasons. This place was covered with a tin roof and modesty was preserved by the use of hessian screens and some slightly more permanent walling. The medical orderly decided that the place needed to be fumingated and so asked the Gurkha officer if he could chuck a smoke grenade in. There then followed the usual bit where the officer told the sgt, who told the cpl, who ordered the L/Cpl, who passed the order to the Private. By this time, the smoke grenade had become a '36' grenade and this was duly thrown into the pit, fortunately, having first coinfirmed that the was nobody perched over the hole. The bang was most impressive and assured a certain amount of redistribution of the contents of the pit. All that can be siad was that there was no fan involved.


SATU RATUS SEPULOH

(The 110 Squadron Song – Origins & Lyricist Unknown. Sung to the tune “The Times They Are A’changin”)

We bring you a tale of One Hundred and Ten
Of weird whirly birds and far weirder men
The Far East is where these strange deeds were all done
With the aircrew all rapidly ageing
But the strife is all over, the battles are done
And the times they are a changing

T’was at Nanga Gaat that we first found our fame
But now we are told we won't go there again
No more happy nights in the old Anchor Inn
Where we drank till the darkness was fading
Then flew all the day before drinking again
But the times they are a changing

The market place knew down in old Kuching
And many a night that they would all hear us sing
Of Simangang, Sibu, Nanga Gaat and such
And how we all like them so very much
But now we are moving up to Labuan
How the times they are a changing

The Tokyo our custom is now bereft
All our young maidens we have now left
No more nights spent down on good drinking sprees
Our times spent dodging the redcaps
For now we are once more civilised chaps
Gosh the times they are a changing


So live with your memories my merry men
Friar Tuck’s saahnie boxes you’ll ne’re see again
For banished abroad from this fair land are we
Across t’ other side of the ocean
But given the chance would come back again
But the times they are a’ changing


Old Duffer - in nostalgic mode

[Tiger_mate]

Does anybody know what restraint was applied to the drumstock to stop it rolling down the hill? Both stakes and webbing straps (into bundles) have been suggested, but I would prefer to get it right if possible.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jun-2012/984204-WC20JUN12.jpg

Also does the log (big chock) at the back of the LS look about right.

[nacluv]

Might be speaking out of turn here, but you asked for opinions on missing details in your port/stbd switch.

From a leyman's perspective, I note that in most (if not all) photos the stbd side sports a white blade antenna just rearward of the extended side door. See FED's very first photo of the comparison between port/stbd views.

Hope this helps in some way! Great painting, by the way.

[G.O.G.]

Hi Tigermate
The fuel drums were not tied down as the pans were flat. the main fuel dump had a cattle type fence round it. Can send photos if required.
If you look at one of the pictures I sent you, in the bottom right hand corner you can see part of the log. Happy painting look forward to see the finished product

[Tiger_mate]

Perfect feedback although on this occasion, that one is in hand. Once I have moved areas, loose ends such as the FM aerial need to wait until the entire canvas is painted and I start all over again. Second 'wave' covers detail missed first time around and sometimes involves major remedial surgery. I also review every square inch, and if it can be done better, out come the brushes. Some paintings strike gold first time around; most dont.

I remain undecided about a chock v sandback and will include people before calling it a day. Interested to know if any visible birds or wildlife would be sterotypical in an image such as this. . Ie not bugs/ snakes but something of size.

[G.O.G.]

Tigermate
Cant remember much wildlife but we did have two pet monkies, Charlie and Min plus two dogs Fred and Flipper who used to hang around on the veranda by the headquarters while we were at work. Have slides some where will try and find them.

[Tiger_mate]

Can somebody please tell me where the refuel cap is on a Whirlwind?
If I put the dog or dogs walking around the stationary aircraft which in turn has aircrew/groundcrew in attendance would that be a fair presentation?
I suspect the monkey may be too small but if he/she had a habit of locking onto people shoulders, I may be able to provide a gesture in that direction.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jun-2012/984204-WC23JUN12.jpg
Would GC have had a tray type wooden toolbox or A.N.Other?
Would a turn-around AF/BF have involved any specific POL on a regular basis, such as may be illustrated with an oil jug or can?
If I give the airborne helicopter a netted load of fuel drums; what would be a realistic ammount of (full) drums in net, and would it be likely for a helicopter to return to Nanga Gaat with empty drums in a net?
Anyone got any photos of a stripped down 105mm howitzer?

[Fareastdriver]

If I give the airborne helicopter a netted load of fuel drums

It was policy Not to carry passengers whilst underslinging loads. Especially with a Whirlwind which couldn't. Two full drums would be a reasonable load but it would have been a waste of time as the helicopter would have used fuel at the same rate as the contents of the drums. Empty drums were OK. You would have been able to carry four as that was all the net would have held.
Go back to Post 7 and the picture of 329. Zoom up and you will see the fuel filler above the bottom pilot's step near the lower/forward corner of the main door. You can see the faint white earthing sign by it.
'Stripped Down'; remove the blast plate.

[Tiger_mate]

The whole canvas is now covered and the final phase will be to revisit all elements of the canvas inserting points of detail missed first time around. It is not too late to make ammends if any glaring errors are noted. I am very pleased with the overall appearance but I wasnt there and anybody who was may wish to comment if there is something that needs changing.
http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/HAR10.jpg

It still needs some people for sure and if I can manage it without overcrowding, a 105mm gun or two.

[Fareastdriver]

I think it is super. The only thing that I can think about is that the aircraft do not have squadron letters on them. As they seem to be 110 Sqn aircraft they would have the letter on the aft cheeks of the main fuselage.

[Tiger_mate]

Thanks for that: 'Royal Air Force' on the far airframe, FM aerials, registrations and codes are all incoming over the next few days. I am still considering a netted load notwithstanding that there is at least one pax + crewman in the primary aircraft.

[gandwnich]

Reading your comments - FM aerials - If I recall the whirlwinds at the time had VHF - 1985 series - single dipole aerials, TX/Rx, Arc 52 UHF TX/RX - Bladea aerials, and Collins hh - wire aerials along the tail boom - I was on 110 as a wireless mech - Dec 1964 to Dec 1965 - spent Sept to end Nov at the Gaat

[gandwnich]

Hi Swede - I was at NG from Sept - to end Nov 65, we were the first there after moving down from Labuan, there was a photo taken of the groundcrew to celebrate the squadron receiving it's colours, by any chance do you have a copy. The people i remember - Cliff Crocker, Chris Tuck, FS Wally Hogg, Steve Borrowdale, John mellows, armourer - ginge Durant, my name Graham Nicholson would be pleased to hear from you

Cheers

Graham

[Tiger_mate]

Graham, i note your in Shropshire. So is the painting. If you could spare some time to talk over your memories and 'walk me around the site' so to speak, the kettle is on and I can get in some biscuits.

[Spot 4]

Is the painting finished yet?
I have a question, if the Navy were a Nanga Gaat 1st with Wessex, and taking for granted that a Wessex will have a greater payload then a Whirlwind, why was the Wessex replaced with an inferior airframe?
This subject is not widely known about and i have enjoyed the thread, would the conflict it be summarised as a jungle version of NI with relatively short distances and more a statement or stance rather than a hands on shooting war?
I ask because none of the links or dits give reference to a field hospital so I assume (yes I know what that means) that there was little if any need for one. Casevac does not appear to feature on the Borneo radar.

[Old-Duffer]

Spot 4 et al,

There is a book being published shortly which will describe helicopter operations in Borneo, mainly from an RAF perspective. The author - who is ex-FEAF truckie - has consulted extensively with the RAF's Whirlwind and Belvedere community, through a group called: The Old Rotors. He has also included other rotary winged stuff.

The Forward is being written by a Whirlwind sqn cdr from that era and the book will be very much at grass roots level ie what the guys did, not what the great strategy was. Anybody who was there will recognise others they knew.

As a further aside, The Old Rotors will be mounting a six month exhibition in a gallery at the RAF Museum Hendon, between dates to be decided. The exhibition will trace the early history of RAF helicopters, probably up to about 1980 or so. If you look on the RAF Museum website and then the RAF Historical Society tab, you will find the proceedings a one day seminar held at the museum in October 2000, which dealt with the development of RAF helicopters.

Old Duffer

[Tiger_mate]

Is the painting finished yet?

Not yet finished. Post 70 of this thread is linked to a webpage that is always up to date therefore it too will be the latest image. I hope to conclude within a week. I will conclude the thread with a final image. The sucess of this painting will probably lead to similar work with Belvedere or RN Wessex and I may be able to contribute to the forthcoming exhibition by loaning the original if the organisor reads these pages. I believe that AAC Scouts were used and wonder if they were used in a FAC role that could include Fast Air such as Hunters in a ground attack scenario.

[teeteringhead]

the early history of RAF helicopters, probably up to about 1980 or so ...well b:mad:gger me gently with the ragman's trumpet O-D, you've just made me feel old.

"Early history" and "up to ... 1980" indeed. I started (just) in the 1960s - first solo in a Sioux on 5th November '69 - and I thought I was one of the newer fellers. :(

Still, at least I never had the privilege (sic) of flying the Whirlwind on the front line ... :D

[Old-Duffer]

TTH,

The RAF first had an interest in rotorcraft in 1923, they operated gyroplanes in the 1930s and had autogiros in France in 1939-40. Later in the war they used rotary winged aircraft in radar calibration work and, together with the RN, introduced the Hoverfly towards the end of the war. The first true helicopter pilot in UK and the holder of Licence No: 1 was Wing Commander Reginald Brie.

Interest seems to have been lost until the Malayan Emergency and the deployment of the S51 Dragonfly to Malaya in 1950, which was so successful that along came the Sycamore and 194 Sqn.

I'm afraid that Bonfire Night 1969 for a first solo makes you a 'young un'. I'll tell what we'll do - you can have a couple of storyboards in the museum exhibition to tell us about loan service helios and the SOAF, can I say fairer than that!!

Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

O-D

many thanks as always. I'll send you a copy of an article I wrote on SOAF helicopters in the Dhofar War (thinks: there goes what remains of my tattered incognito!)

Teeters

[Old-Duffer]

But TTH, you already sent me a copy of same and were kind enough to annotate it with some info and explanations. In fact, I was reading it again only a few days ago.

Old Duffer

[sycamore]

Spot4, there were many `casevacs` during Confrontation,not only of injured/wounded troops but also of villagers/pregnant women,etc; in the civilian cases this was to help foster `hearts and minds` and keep the locals `on board`,especially where villages did not have access to nurses/doctors.There were of course `dispensaries` at some of the larger villages,and hospitals at the Divisional Capitals(towns).Military units/battalions ,of course had their own medics,and even a Doctor at their HQs,who would advise on the best course of action/treatment ,removal of patient to a local hospital for immediate treatment by helo /Pioneer etc,and then sent to Changi,or back to UK.Any helo crew could be tasked to do casevacs,depending on the situation.

[Fareastdriver]

I was flying one of the Intel flights. In Sabah we had an ex Colonial Office bod who was in Borneo before and during the 2nd WW. He could speak the local Murat language fluently and his job was to find out what was happening the other side of the border. On this occasion we went to a longhouse perched on the side of a hill overlooking the river about 5 miles short of the Indonesian border. There I shut down for the couple of hours that he required to get his information.
My attention was drawn to a young boy, about 9 years old, who had massive sores on his leg between the knee and the ankle. This was obviouly very serious and the Int officer gave his opinion that it was Yaws, a possible fatal disease. As he had time to spare I fired up, I was single pilot without a crewman, and flew to Pensiangan, the nearest village with any facilities. There I went to the WHO rep, a Taiwanese, and discussed the problem. He said that he could not give an opinion without seeing him so I bundled the WHO representitive and his assistant into my Whirlwind and flew them to the longhouse. He confirmed the Int Off opinion and declared that he would have to go to hospital in short order otherwise he was going to be in big trouble.
My decision was that when the Int Off had finished I would fly the boy to Jessleton (Kota Kinabalu) dropping the WHO party off at Pensiangan and the Int Off at Sepulot. Whilst we were waiting for the Int Off to finish the WHO chap had a long procession of sick Murats looking to be cured. There then came the problem of who was going to accompany the boy to Jessleton so one of his uncles was inveigled.

We took off, dropped the WHO party, and at Sepulot refuelled and picked up another pilot to help with the admin for the next trip. Our operators at Sepulot alerted the hospital at Jessleton and when we arrived the was an Ambulance awaiting to take him to hospital.


They would not get in the Ambulance.


They had never seen a vehicle with wheels on. Helicopters were OK, they saw them every day, but boxes that closed doors around you was not acceptable. The staff with the Ambulance did not speak Murat so eventually using sign language the ambulance drove off to the hospital with the boy and his uncle walking behind.

He was cured, in a manner of speaking and a civvy Twin Pin dropped him off at Sepulot. We would like to have flown him back home but we had nothing going that way so they walked.

Forty miles; a couple of days.

[teeteringhead]

O-D oops! thought I might have done ...... :(

.......... perhaps I'm not a young 'un any more ...... :{

[Old-Duffer]

TTN,

Of course you're a youngun, it's not your fault that the memory buds are failing. Don't you recall we were discussing this the day I lent you £200 quid in used fivers, that you promised to repay within five days???!!!

O-D

[gandwnich]

Sorry for the late reply - yes I am in Shropshire - Shifnal - we could meet - would look forward to it - and I don't mind travelling - let me know whatwould be best - cheers Graham

[gandwnich]

Af/ BF and turnround did include oil level checks, the fuel refill cap was on the cabin door side just below and forward of the door, it was not usual to carry oils in the cab, as I found out ona an overnight stop at Long Jawi, we had to wait till a relief A/c came with the correct oil.

[gandwnich]

110 Sqd did take over from the Navy at Nanga Gaat in September 1965, I flew down to Sibu with one of the first aircraft, piloted by John Badham, 230 replaced 103 at Labuan about 3 months earlier, when 103 went down to Kuching.

[Fareastdriver]

gandnwich.

I stand humbly corrected. I have deleted the rubbish I wrote about the Sepulot/NG changeover; it was Bario.

[Tiger_mate]

The painting; whilst not yet finished, needs a "name". Does anyone with first hand experience of the location know of any words that are not too cheesy that would suit this image. Anyone remember what callsigns were used or did the camp have an NI type tag such as Red xyz? Sometimes months of graft with a paintbrush can pale into insignificance compared to choosing a title.
http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/HAR10.jpg

[gandwnich]

Tiger mate hi - as far as I can remember, when I went to NG in Sept '65 there was no equipment to enable us to move the helicopters with, I left Dec '65 and during that period nothing was lifted in for that use, i am at the moment waiting for a reply from another of my colleagues who was there at the same time. Cheers Graham

[David Billings]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the "Wobble Pump" which was mounted on the Main Gear Forward strut, Starboard side (of course).

Tiger mate: The picture is fine but "too tidy", the landing pads area was a mess..... the paths as I recall were not just paths on the ground they were rough board walks as mud was everywhere off the walks. The boards had a few nails sticking up which were perfect for tripping over too.... The view you have from ground level is almost the same lateral view as the colour picture I took from the air and which is displayed on the "Confrontation - know your enemy...." thread a couple of years back. There is another there also taken at ground level from the same aspect.

There was a small stream which cut across the pads area and the bridge over it had rough handrails, rather like the rails you have by the chopper at the Hangar.

You need to put the tanned guys in shorts and whatever shoes they were wearing (with socks rolled down) and the odd dog waiting for the chopper to land as they would be in the vicinity ready to service the beast once it shut down. A zwicky pump with a guy holding the nozzle.... A couple of zobbits leaning over the HQ railing, to the right of the "RAF Nanga Gaat" signboard....

A couple of hornbills (nearly always in pairs) flying over wouldn't go astray either.

Tie up a couple of longboats in the Sungei Gaat, put up the framed lizard display on the left hangar wall, then the ever present young Iban lad named "Bunsu" looking on eagerly and the deer with the piece of fur missing off their throats, and the.....

Dave Billings
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[David Billings]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the "Wobble Pump" which was mounted on the Main Gear Forward strut, Starboard side (of course).

Tiger mate: The picture is fine but "too tidy", the landing pads area was a mess..... the paths as I recall were not just paths on the ground they were rough board walks as mud was everywhere off the walks. The boards had a few nails sticking up which were perfect for tripping over too.... The view you have from ground level is almost the same lateral view as the colour picture I took from the air and which is displayed on the "Confrontation - know your enemy...." thread a couple of years back. There is another there also taken at ground level from the same aspect.

There was a small stream which cut acrioss the pads area and the bridge over it had rough handrails, rather like the rails you have by the chopper at the Hangar.

You need to put the tanned guys in shorts and whatever shoes they were wearing (with socks rolled down) and the odd dog waiting for the chopper to land as they would be in the vicinity ready to service the beast once it shut down. A zwicky pump with a guy holding the nozzle.... A couple of zobbits leaning over the HQ railing, to the right of the "RAF Nanga Gaat" signboard....

A couple of hornbills (nearly always in pairs) flying over wouldn't go astray either.

Tie up a couple of longboats in the Sungei Gaat, put up the framed lizard display on the left hangar wall, then the ever present young Iban lad named "Bunsu" looking on eagerly and the deer with the piece of fur missing off their throats, and the.....

Dave Billings
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[Tiger_mate]

Did they use 'swingfog' otherwise described as a hand held (as you would a strimmer) parafin burning motorised smoke generator to control mosquitoes? As that would add something to the image if it is appropriate.

I will get at least one dog in by the HQ.

I do know about the oleo mounted pumps but do not have any good reference photos that would translate to an accurate depiction. I understand it was yellow in colour so may be able to make a gesture in that direction.

Where the board-walks orientated on the direction of travel or 90` to it in the manner of railway sleepers?

I propose to hook up a trolley-ack to the static aircraft. Assuming such a device at that time would have been air-force blue in colour.

Where the wriggly tin buildings rusty?

[Old-Duffer]

I see the Whirlwind in the foreground now has a number. XP332 was dropped in the oggin at Hong Kong in May 1969 after an engine rundown, having taken off in the rain for a troop lift. It was one of the original batch of six aircraft taken to H/K at the backend of '67 when 103/110 ran the detachment turn and turn about. 28 Sqn was formed in the Spring of '68 and took over. The question, therefore, is - did 332 ever do the Nanga Gaat bit? I suspect the answer is: Yes but does it really matter?

As to the Wobble Pump, my recollection was the handle which made it happen was stowed on the forward bulkhead and hence only deployed when needs must. Again, IIRC the preferred sequence went something like: bowser, Zwicky pump - if it would start - wobble pump. I can't remember doing a hand refuel by decanting from a 45 gallon drum but I expect it happened!

As Dave B says, most of these places were pretty scruffy with plenty of local 'involvement'. As to which way the planks lay, I can't say I ever noticed!

Old Duffer

[Fareastdriver]

Posts 2 & 7 have pictures of the wobble pump in idle mode. Trolleyacc? Dunno about Nangs Gaat but there weren't any at Sepulot. It was aircraft or helistart Landrover.
In theory you could decant fuel straight into the tank from a 45 gall drum by harnessing it in a net. Starting the aircraft up and then lifting the drum with the winch so thay you could siphon the fuel into the tanks. Heard lots of stories about it being done; never found anybody who had done it or was there.

[Tiger_mate]

In the absence of any vehicles at Nanga Gaat, this Whirlwind now has a trolley-ack. The photo above automatically updates. I have started to make the place look a little untidy in response to feedback.

[David Billings]

Tiger Mate:

Hangar wriggly tin was brand new when I got there in Jan '66.

HQ Building wood was stained "Mission Brown". Most buildings and shacks were rough sawn timber, most of them that the Ibans used had atap roofing (the ones on the left in your painting).

The only two "permament" buildings were the HQ Building in your painting and the Airmen's Accomodation which was on "Main Street" closer to the Rajang River, these had exterior "weatherboard" siding.

Boardwalks had two laid pieces of timber (tree branches I recall) in the mud in the direction of travel and then short boards laid across them and nailed down.

The thread I mentioned (Confrontation, know your enemy - was it Soekarno ?) is, dare I say it.... on "Key Publishing - Historic Aviation". You have to search for it nowadays though.

It even shows me (when I was a young and spritely lad, handsome too I could mention !) standing by one of the beasts and shows the wobble pump on the leg which was black.

Yes, Old Duffer, we did refuel using the wobble pump on occasion. I well recall sweating my a@&$e off refuelling from a drum using the wobble pump while running and it barely kept up with the fuel usage...

XP332: Just looked through my Logbook and can't find 332 anywhere, at either Seletar, Kuching, Nanga Gaat, Labuan or Hong Kong..... I may be wrong but it doesn't seem to be a Seletar beast sent up to HK when the cordon work was being done there before 28 Squadron was re-formed. Sent out from UK when some of the Far East machines went back for heavy maintenance ?

I only have beasts in my log which had the big pig filter on the front, I can't recall beasts at NG (or elsewhere) without the pig snout.

Happy daubing !

Regards,

Dave Billings
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[Tiger_mate]

I have a photo of that particular Whirlwind at a Borneo site albeit a football pitch and the colour schemes appeared to be a variation of a them rather then a specific pattern. This is why this one was chosen for the scheme matches the airframe. The reference for the static aircraft was a 230 Sqn machine not photographed in Borneo which is why I am yet to give it a registration.. If someone can offer an authentic number plate and sqn code letter, i shall make it so. I have seen and saved Davids photo so am equipped to place a pump on the aircraft and may even include david and dog! Were the dogs std jungly scabby grey dogs or something a little more refined?

[Old-Duffer]

Try these for starters:

XJ412 - left on the top of Tinkers Hill Sabah in Nov 66 - no code
XJ432 - no code
XP329 - 'C'
XK986 - 'U'

By the way guys, the Borneo Boys book is launched at the RAF Museum on 12 December. It tells the story of helicopters in Borneo 1962-66, mainly RAF.

Old Duffer

[sycamore]

It may be that the size of Squadron aircraft `letters` was different between 225 and 230 and also their positions.XP329 and 332 were 225,later 103,however 329 was on 230 back in the UK in mid`67.
Awaiting info from someone who should know....

[D120A]

XK986 'U' was also back at Odiham with 230 Sqn in 1967.

[Old-Duffer]

Just a bit further to my post 101 above.

It will be essential to ensure that the "provenance" of the serial number selected is established. For example the artist should ignore aircraft which only served at Tern Hill or which had been SAR aircraft solely. May I also suggest that we avoid XP327, lost in tragic circumstances by 225 Sqn, and XR477, likewise lost in Hong Kong but a Far East aircraft of some standing.

Referring to David's post above re the original Hong Kong aircraft, shipped to Kai Tak on HMS Triumph, I think the six were: XP301, XP332, XP340, XP363, XJ432 and XR477. XP301, broken up at Benson in the early 1970s, had been the SS11 trials aircraft and I have an A3 (approx) monochrome photo, framed on the wall of my hall, of her hovering at Odiham with four missiles on board. Can't remember what the weight of the wiring etc was but I don't remember it being taken out. Somewhere else there were some posts about Chunky Lord doing training on the missile in a hut at Kuching and also of live firing at some cave in the jungle. Perhaps it would be best not to mention the chap who returned with the missile's guidance wire strung all over his aircraft!!!

Old Duffer

[rotorfossil]

We had one, maybe two Whirlwinds fitted for missile firing on 103 and used in the end to provide missile practice for Canberra navs. Unfortunately someone pressed the "clear aircraft" switch and dumped the lot in the sea at China Rock range.
All the fixed fittings were retained along with the HF, Night Sun, package winch, filter nose door etc. Must have been the heaviest Whirlwind ever except for the Queen's Flight jobs.

[Old-Duffer]

Re my post 104 - see the new FLYPAST magazine, there's a double page spread of Whirlwinds at Kai Tak in 1968.

I think my memory is flawed - it should have been XR458 and I think XJ432 replaced XP332 after the latter was dunked.

Old Duffer

[Tiger_mate]

So XJ432 with no code seen is appropriate for the static Whirlwind? If so, that will be the aircraft depicted, and it will be marked as such shortly.

Gandwnich - check PM

[Old-Duffer]

Tiger Mate,

I think so. The photograph I have seen of XJ432 has no visible code but these things are transitory and a code could have been added at any time.

One of the difficulties is that at its height, there were four Whirlwind squadrons operating in Borneo, of which two rotated aircraft and crews through Singapore and two were supported through both Singapore and UK and the crews were on twelve month tours.

Losses were blessedly few and rare but the maintenance cycle did involve aircraft being shifted around, as did the hours 'equalisation' requirements.

If the base selected is to be described as: Nanga Gaat, it is important to establish when the RAF was the dominant user of the base and then it helps identify which aircraft can plausibly be considered as operating from there. The issue is that IIRC, by the time the RAF was 'in charge' all the aircraft had the sand filter fitted!! Perhaps a bit of 'artist's licence' is in order here!!

Quite honestly, however, I don't think you'll find too much nitt picking from most of us.

Old Duffer

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC 230 Sqn got its sand filters in March/April 1966. As we were the last in line for everything because Seletar used to nick all out spares whilst on route i would assume that everybody down south had them by then.

[David Billings]

I walked away from one in Sabah, which I have been told was repaired because it was an SS11 modded beast and for the outlay, too valuable to scrap. I am in SIN at the moment and do not have my Logbook with me...why would I have it here ?!?!? I think it was XP328 and when I walked away from it in 1968, it had no boom, only blade stubs, both front legs broken and it looked a bit 'bad and suckled', so to speak. I considered it to be "scrap"..... and for the life of me could see no reason to cart it off the side of the hill

Laurie B on the K-y P------g thread informed me that it was hooked out, repaired and ended it's days at Sluggersgoh. The repair must have taken five years....

RPM, FF, TGT...
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[sycamore]

It was probably XP358; 328 was on 225 and don`t recall that it was an SS11modded a/frame.Others modded were XP301,332,358,and393...

[Old-Duffer]

XP328 ended being transferred to the civil register and then preserved at Tattershal Thorpe near Coningsby but whether 'tis still there is anyone's guess.

The aircraft sent to Gutersloh for ground display/GG duties was originally XP347 but it lost a tailrotor in Belgium and was destroyed when it rolled over, injuring the nav and two others. This was 5 May 81. Interestingly, it appeared that the wrong stuff might have been used as a lubricant - what a surprise!

Whether another Whirlwind was sent there I don't know but I and a load of mates were at Gutersloh on 10 May this year and I didn't see anything that looked like a Whirlwind.

As an aside, 230 came out of Gutersloh to go to Borneo but they returned to UK and Odiham and thence Wittering IIRC.

Old Duffer

[Tiger_mate]

There was a Whirlwind hulk ohne tailboom at Gut for BDR Trg until the rotary boys moved out and the army moved in. I know where I can find the serial...back later.

AL1. XP358 / S

[corporal punishment]

Kinda looks like it was XP358 then!

For those interested, Corgi are reworking their diecast model of an SAR Whirlwind to be a 230 Sqn SH version - no sand filter however!!

Corporal P

[Fareastdriver]

230 Sqn SH version - no sand filter however!!


They only had sand filters on for about six months. They went on in March/April 1966 and came off when they came back to the UK in Sept/Oct 1966.

[lauriebe]

Quote:

I walked away from one in Sabah, which I have been told was repaired because it was an SS11 modded beast and for the outlay, too valuable to scrap. I am in SIN at the moment and do not have my Logbook with me...why would I have it here ?!?!? I think it was XP328 and when I walked away from it in 1968, it had no boom, only blade stubs, both front legs broken and it looked a bit 'bad and suckled', so to speak. I considered it to be "scrap"..... and for the life of me could see no reason to cart it off the side of the hill.

Laurie B on the K-y P------g thread informed me that it was hooked out, repaired and ended it's days at Sluggersgoh.

Dave B, from our correspondence on the Key board (I have the same username here), I can confirm that the serial was as TM gave above (post 113), XP358.

After its 103/110 days, that frame was allocated to 28 Sqn in HK very early 70s and then back to RAE before the BDR days at Gut.

I also have a photo of XP328/R taken when it was flying just off the beach near Butterworth around Jun/Jul 66. If it is of interest, I can post here.

[David Billings]

lauriebe,

Thanks for the pertinent hull serial no. I am usually in possession of a good memory.... So XP358 it is....maybe it is the circumstance of the 'why' that beast came to rest on the hillside in Sabah that caused the unlinking of a numerical memory cell. My nomenclature remembrance cells in that regard are still perfecto... after 44 years.

"Lest We Forget", as they say. Amen to that.

Dave Billings
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[Tiger_mate]

XP358 in its final days at Gutersloh. The airframe is mounted on a trailer in order that it could deploy on field based operations and satisfy the BDR requirements of TacEval assessors. Not pretty, but still serving in an important role to the end.
http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/BDR.jpg

[David Billings]

...looks a lot worse than when I left it in 1968...

I must admit that when I did leave it, I never looked back at it...a pillar of salt came to mind !!! Ha ! I am even fearful of that now !

DB
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[Old-Duffer]

Yippee, at least we now know it was coded 'S'!!!

[David Billings]

That's as maybe... but the Far East beasts had white code letters and the "hulk" shown on the trailer may have had it's original 103/110 white code letter scrubbed during the repair and been replaced by a later black Sqdn code letter when it re-entered service.

"Pass the salt, please, I want to fling some over my left shoulder...."

DB
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[Tiger_mate]

An updated photograph of the painting showing a larger tail rotor and amended sky around the tailboom. A gesture at wooden planking can be seen in the foreground limited to a boggy area as photographs suggest that a network of boardwalks was not always present. David; in order to use your photograph for scale, please pm with your height. I am getting itchy fingers to complete this one asap as a que is forming.
http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/HAR10.jpg

[David Billings]

My Height ? To be old-fashioned and not politically correct: 5 feet 9 inches.

I also think if you look at the colour pics on Key you'll see a lot of PSP around the place which probably came from Kuching or Sibu when the runway was sealed... Getting it to The Gaat would have been a nightmare.

DeeBee
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[Old-Duffer]

DeeBee,

My comment re Sqn code was in jest/tongue in cheek etc and of course the codes would have varied as the cab moved from unit to unit. I don't ever recall seeing an SH Whirlwind with black codes.

A monochrome photograph of XP405, taken in 1973 at Upwood and which now adorns my downstairs loo (I'm so posh, I have a loo upstairs and downstairs!!!!) shows the code in black, edged in white. A colour photo of XP338, hovering over the roadsign at Tern Hill, shows the letters 'W' and 'N' in black, a black serial number on the tail boom and a red/white and blue roundal which takes up almost all of the fillet behind the cabin and underneath the boom. Both 405 and 338 are Tern Hill aircraft and hence both were in the overall training colours of the period (1973 and 1964 respectively).

By the way, have I mentioned that a book called "The Borneo Boys" is to be published shortly and will probably be launched in December. It deals with Confrontation between Dec '62 and late '66 from the perspective of the Whirlwind and Belvedere squadrons, although RN and Army also get a mention. This book will, hopefully, correct the misconception in some other accounts, which tends to suggest that the whole show was very much Army beefed up by the RN!!

Old Duffer

[Yozzer]

You can see this landing site (albeit in black & white) in a film:
HELICOPTER SQUAD HONOURED - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/helicopter-squad-honoured/query/borneo+helicopter)
The helicopters are Royal Navy Wessex but the location is the same. Also shows how the Gurkhas were dressed whilst on patrol.

Does anyone know the L&L for this site? It would be interesting to see it in Google Earth nowadays.

[Fareastdriver]

1965? The Navy were based at Labuan with their Wessexs forward at Bario and they had a Whirlwind 7 to do their admin between the two.

[David Billings]

Yozzer...

Gaat Lat/Long at the east side junction of the Rajang River and Sungei Gaat:

1 deg 53' 09.57" N, 113 deg 26' 49.86"

or, follow the Rajang River from Kapit for about 80 Kms and go just to the East of a big "V" bend in the river.

Looks like they have done a bit of logging there and The Gaat and the community upriver are into logging in a big way, sad to say.

They haven't done a digital run over there so it is still fuzzy.

DeeBee
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[David Billings]

Gaat Longitude....

Make the Longitude "East" of course....
It would be helpful if Mr. Google did do a High Def run but I suppose nothing much of interest for anybody that hasn't been there...

I can't even find Long Jawi so maybe they've gone somewhere else...

[Lee Howard]

Re XP358 crash, does anyone have the full details of this? I have it receiving Cat.4 damage on 19.11.67 whilst with 110 Sqn ('K') but nothing further.

Can someone fill in the gaps (with names)?

MTIA

Lee

[Old-Duffer]

In March 2011, a chum, his wife and a party led by an Australian went up the river and reached the Gaat.

The remains of the two RN Wessex, which crashed there in April 1965, are still visible with engines etc identifiable. The memorial is still there but much of the site is overgrown and there is a great deal of logging etc in the area. The journey was difficult because of the river levels being low.

I have been told recently that the expedition no longer runs that far up the river, so probably the only way in is on foot as the landing pads are no longer discernable. BTW, the hornets were much in evidence and do they sting!

Sorry Lee can't help with the details of 358 but Dave Billings knows all about it - I'd moved to Hong Kong by that time - thank goodness!

Old Duffer

[David Billings]

You will find a contact for me within the website under my name in previous posts.

DB

[Tiger_mate]

Two more questions if I may:

1) The aerial (HF?) running to the tail skid; did it then run up the other side. ie was it overall 'V' shaped or a single line?

2) Regarding the parked aircraft. Are there any static covers, blanks - flags etc that 'would' have been fitted? Likewise can I assume that tip sock fitment would have been weather (wind) dependent at the time and therefore no being seen it not a deal.

Artistic License only goes so far and it is frustrating at an Art Exhibition to have your pride and joy ripped to shreds on minor technical matters.

[D120A]

I think the HF aerial was V-shaped, i.e. running either side. Tiger_mate, the pictures I will send you of the UNFICYP detachment (see your PM on the other thread) have this as well as the Nicosia control tower.

[Old-Duffer]

Sticking covers and blanking plates on etc depended on how long you were going to be hanging around. If the cab was parked for a lunch break, nobody gave a stuff - overnight was rather different. However, again there were certain criteria depending on weather etc.

Leave the cab on the ground alone, it might just be there for a short time.

In my experience, most people who want to nit pick are those who have never 'done the business'.

Old Duffer

[rotorfossil]

I think the reason for the cranked tailboom has little to do with aerodynamics but simply to keep the tailboom clear of the rotor blades on wind up and more particularly on shutdown. Even with the cranked tailboom, I've seen a blade get frighteningly close to the boom shutting down in a gusting wind, and every now and then, one of the droop stops wouldn't go in which made it worse.
Unfortunately the problem of Gnome engine "rundowns" is complex because of the interaction between the engine (compressor stalls) and the engine computor and its associated signalling circuits which made diagnosis not so easy. Having had one as late as the '90's (this was a compressor stall) in a privately operated ex RAF Whirlwind, the problem never really went away.

[David Billings]

If you want to know the details then contact me on:

[email protected]

David Billings
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[Tiger_mate]

I travelled to Odiham to get some reference photographs and I am afraid that a combination of ODH getting a new Chinook Gate Guard, RAF Policy of only single gate guards, and most importantly the ammount of obvious corrosion on the Whirlwind; I speculate that its future looks bleak.
http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/WWdoor.jpg
Here is one of the many photographs taken. Can I assume that all Borneo Whirlwinds had the pair of (FM?) aerials below the nose? .....and is the prominent round filler cap with the sight glass adjacent to it the fuel filler as I am struggling to get my head around exactly which orrifice is for fuel (and likely staining)

There was a small triangular aerial attached to a bodge mount behind the starboard oleo. Looked like a DME or IFF and I wonder if this was also a universal fitment.
http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/WWoleo.jpg

AL1. Having studied a similar photo of an SAR cab, I believe the fuel cap to be the semi circular flap with a butterfly type zeus fastener next to the intercom point and the circular flap for oil. Ie the cover labled Earthing Point.

[sycamore]

T-M, which `cab` is it at Odi..?
The fuel filler is behind the `flap` with `Earthing point` on it;the upper one is for oil,with sight glass; the aerials under the nose are for UHF homer.No FM until later on SAR...naturally one could never talk to the Army,unless one had a chalkboard,and drew a picture...well one could if they carried a portable UHF set,but that required another Signaller...
The IFF only came later,and probably only UK SAR...there was also a half-football sized/shaped foam cover over the brake-pipe joint where it goes into the fuselage to protect from para static lines and ropes fouling.Nice wheel and tyre,pity they couldn`t spare a good spray of WD-40/PX38 over the rest of it..

[D120A]

XR453. And it was flyable when Odiham re-acquired it, too. You got room in your back garden, Syc?

[sycamore]

XR453-`W` on 230,at Odi,67-8..only flew it 4 times in 8 mths,so it must have spent some time in the `shed`...!! I only have a SNCO`s garden now,so I could only assemble a Robbo..I did spend 1h45 with `F-E-D` in it doing I/F, and an hour at night with `Beggers` ,firing `Schermulys` ....

[Tiger_mate]

http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/wwroundel.jpg

There is always a danger with this scenario that the paint does not reflect the metalwork (which is the case with the Shawbury Wsx guardian) but the book 'RAF Rotors' suggests that on this occasion, the reg at least is genuine.

[Fareastdriver]

You can see that it spent itrs last years in the UK. In Borneo there would be footmarks either side of the tail rotor shafts on the top of the boom where the youngest erk would trot down to put the tail rotor cover on.

[Old-Duffer]

XR453 was one of the last batch of sixteen Mk 10s for the RAF and although XS412 has a later serial, it was delivered as a replacement for XP392 in October 1962 and hence predates the delivery of 453 to 485.

The two Mk 12s : XR486 and 487 came later.

453 served with CFS, 1563 Flt, 230 Sqn and back to CFS before being transferred to MOD(PE) and then on to Odiham.

I would have thought that sorting out 453 would have been a nice little project for a group of Westland apprentices.

I saw the aircraft when she was lined up with other helicopters for the dedication of the SH Memorial and then later when it was parked adjacent to the old SHQ building (now Regt Training Flt) and close to the memorial. It would be a pity if it were let go, as there are few early rotary wing examples left intact.

Incidentally, one of the leading lights in the 'one gate guardian movement' was a contemporary of mine and somebody I found remarkably unpleasant. After he left HM's employ he got a rather nice little earner but subsequently his - how can I put this delicately - flaws of character were exposed. Think he emigrated later!

Old Duffer

[Tiger_mate]

A sure fire way of knowing when the end is nie is when you start making mistakes. That point has been reached and therefore this work is now complete. There were many other little anecdotes that I would have liked to include such as a stripped for (USL) flight 105mm gun, but they will have to wait for a Navy Wessex or a Belvedere another day. My 'Mission Statement' is the Preserving Aviation Heritage through Artand for those that have been there and done it; I hope you consider this aspiration, on this occasion; achieved. For the many contributers to this thread and especially those that were good enough to telephone and email me direct, you have my heart felt thanks. Thank you all.

http://home.btconnect.com/aeroartist/HAR10.jpg

Oil paint on stretched canvas. 36" x 24", completed 18 Aug 12.

[sycamore]

Excellent T-M,feels pretty much like the tropics here today,and looking in the logbook ,I flew 332/E for 1h30 on Task ,on 18 Aug 1965....

[Old-Duffer]

Congratulations T-M, looks pretty good to me and will be a fitting tribute to those who operated or supported (on ground and in the air) the Whirlwind in Borneo.

It's 46 years ago last week that 'Confrontation' wrapped up (officially) that is - frightening to realise that those who were there are almost all OAPs now!!!

Old Duffer

[David Billings]

Speak for yourself, buddy.... I am still working at 72.

Dave Billings
www.electranewbritain.com (http://www.electranewbritain.com)

[David Billings]

Tiger Mate.... Well done, very nice.

DeeBee

[Old-Duffer]

Now come on David, I did say: 'almost all' !!

Old Duffer

[PaulCS]

Have some pics loaded on my PC of 230 Whirlwind Mk 10s operating out of Tawau and Sepulot 1965/66, but have no idea how to attach them to this message.

[Tiger_mate]

To post an image they need to be placed on a website such as flikr . The web address (right click on the photo and copy the address from properties) can be linked to a page here. The max size is i believe 800 pixels wide. To place the image here you press the icon seen in the message writing panel that looks in appearance like a letter albeit with a mountain and the 'stamp' is the sun!

An altnative is to place [img] before the web address and [/img. ] without the dot or space after your image address. Hope that helps. If it all goes wrong, pm me with the address of the photo and i will do the link for you.

[Fareastdriver]

You can always try Photobucket. I've used it for years without any trouble.

[Pelomino]

Hi Tiger Fans!

For our website www.sg-etuo.de (http://www.sg-etuo.de) we are looking for the serial numbers of the Whirlwind HAR10 of 230Sqn based in 1963 and 1964.

Does anybody know them?

Unfortunately we havn´t any pictures of Whirlwind of 230Sqn showing them at RAF Gütersloh.

Can anyone provide some?

Thanks

Marcus

[Fareastdriver]

I cannot be positive about the Whirlwinds at Gutersloh but 230 Sqn was shipped en-masse to Labuan in 1965. As the only other green squadron, 225, went to Kuching so it would stand to reason that the 230 Squadron aircraft I flew at Labuan in 1966 would be the same ones that were at Gutersloh.

They were: XJ412, XK986, XL110, XP362, XP363, XP395, XP400, XR453, XR456, XR457.

At the end of confrontation the squadron was returned to Europe to Odiham. Some of the aircraft were swopped with the FEAF Whirwinds so the there were some different serials back in the UK.-

[Pelomino]

Thank you for the serials. Did the helis wear any squadron codes?

Thanks!

[sycamore]

Pel, the aircraft only wore individual letters,not a Squadron code +individual. only ones I have are.XK986-`U`,and XR453-`W`,XR454 possibly`Q`,but these are from 1967-8.
F E D and D120 may pop up with more relevant stuff.

[D120A]

I think squadron codes emerged in the RAF only in the late 1970s. Until that time, a tail letter and a squadron badge on the fin (or the cabin door on a helicopter) was deemed sufficient.

I cannot claim to have flown in all the 230 Sqn Whirlwinds in '67-68, but when I flew I logged both serials and tail letters. They were, in no particular order:

XS412(Y), XP396(S), XR453(W), XP299(P), XP357(X), XP395(R), XK986(U), XP329(V), XJ758(O), XP330(Z), XL110(T), and XP302(N).

Hope that helps.

[Fareastdriver]

Go back to post No 4 of this thread and the two Whirlwinds are as the 230 Sqn aircraft were in spring 1966. The nearest one 'O' was swopped for another at the end of the year.

[Pelomino]

Hi! I found the following serials of Whirlwind of 230Sqn at different pictures in the last days during their time at Gütersloh:

XR453/A (from29.11.1962), XP302/N, XP397/T (w/o 17.08.1964), XP401/W, XP402/X, XP330/Z and XR457 (from 07.01.1963)
Some of them had already mentioned.
Regards
Marcus

[Pelomino]

Hi! I found the following serials of Whirlwind of 230Sqn at different pictures in the last days during their time at Gütersloh:

XR453/A (from29.11.1962), XP302/N, XP397/T (w/o 17.08.1964), XP401/W, XP402/X, XP330/Z and XR457 (from 07.01.1963)
Some of them had already be mentioned.
Regards
Marcus

[John Mellowes]

Hi, I am "the " John Mellowes. How are you. What is your full name. Not sure the exact dates I was in Nanga Gaat. Labuan June 1965 then Sibu then Nanga Gaat all with 110 Sqdn. Can't remember everyones names.Have lots of photo's though.Anybody wants them please email me. I left Borneo on June6 1966.
John Mellowes Now living and retired in Sydney Australia.

[Ngapuhi66]

Hello, My Dad was stationed at Balai Ringin where these were quite frequent. I found some slides of two of these that were operational ex this Airfield: XP330 'D' https://plus.google.com/u/0/113526267124529296984/posts/JHQM3uPRDB5?pid=6061450459194332418&oid=113526267124529296984

https://plus.google.com/u/0/113526267124529296984/posts/JHQM3uPRDB5?pid=6061450470847771714&oid=113526267124529296984

XP358 'K'

https://plus.google.com/u/0/113526267124529296984/posts/JHQM3uPRDB5?pid=6061450451560107026&oid=113526267124529296984.

If anyone out there knows who this gent is or knew my Dad (Joe Petricevich) drop me a line.

Regards,

Darryn

[aslawrence]

Mr John Mellows

I am sure that the aviation community would be very interested in seeing your photographs as pictures from this theatre are rare. It would be terrible if they were lost.

Would you be able to scan them in or pass them on to someone to scan them for you.

My father served in Borneo, hence my interest.

Best regards

Anthony S Lawrence

[Ngapuhi66]

Just in case you needed any more, I uploaded some of the other ships (Bristol-Belvedere - Flying Longhouse, Westland-Bell - Sioux) that were in and out of the place along with some of the buildings and conditions of the site itself.



Link Here to the other slides -


https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/113526267124529296984/albums/6061450445401904977


Painting looks great by the way. (Wobble Stick included Here)


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/E5EQh4AsgY83oSC7vi5-vlfT9d_yBeGbmU9RmP4nVFE=w383-h258-p-no

[sycamore]

Ng...66,those links don`t work for me...

[Old-Duffer]

They don't work for me either.


Old Duffer

[Herod]

NG 66, check out the "tips for posting pictures" thread. These direct links to Google don't work. Look forward to seeing them.

[that chinese fella]

Hi all,

My father, Ken Gibson, worked in Borneo at 230 Sqn as an avionics tech.

I have sent him the link to this thread but if anyone remembers Ken then drop me a line.

He is alive and well, living in Perth, Australia.

Regards,

Paul

[consub]

Bit late reading this, but was interested in the reference to Dave Cramp, as he was in the same entry as me - the 90th - and was in the same hut when we joined up in 1958. In fact his service number is the one in front of mine.
We parted to different huts at the end of the first year and he went to Ground Radar and me to Air Radio. I missed seeing him in Borneo, I was on 66 between 64 and 65 at Kuching. I did hear that he was flying Valettas in Malta.
If anyone knows where he is now, try getting him to join http://www.tomsnet.org/90thentryrecords.

[Herod]

Consub. Dave is in contact with Tom.

[Old-Duffer]

Aeroartist has just held an exhibition of his artwork in a gallery in Shrewsbury.


The work displayed includes the pair of Whirlwinds at Nanga Gaat and these look even better 'up close and personal' than the images posted suggest. Aeroartist tells me he is going to produce a new canvas of a Belvedere (he did one in his early days as an artist) and he's looking for photographs to help inform his research.


Old Duffer

[Tiger_mate]

The final day of the aviation art exhibition in Shrewsbury is tomorrow 1000 - 1600. The Civic Society gallery is not easy to find despite being in the centre of town next to St Akmunds church. It is closed today (Boxing Day)

[heli1]

The mention of Belvedere made me read this thread through over Xmas. I was intrigued that some hardy souls have trekked back into the area ......Has anyone visited the Belvedere fatal crash site in the Trusan River valley? I know the wreckage was badly burned but keen to know if the front gearbox might have survived all these years....Desperate I know but last hope chance to complete XG452 at The Helicopter Museum.

[Old-Duffer]

heli 1,


The crash site was visited about 20 years ago and was difficult to locate I understand. The aircraft was essentially completely gutted by fire and there were some original photographs of a log lined pit being dug, into which the remains of the aircraft were to be buried.


At the time, I understood that the crew and passengers were not recovered but I was told that they have subsequently been removed to a final resting place but cannot confirm this.


I doubt there is anything which you could recover from the site and even if there was, how to get it out - the jungle has reclaimed the site after nearly 52 years.




Old Duffer

[heli1]

OD......Thanks. The only other slight hope was that the RSAF engineering school at Tengah kept the gearbox when they took it out of the Belvedere left with them for GI but efforts in that direction also drew a blank many years ago when the museum collected other surviving parts from the airframe. The actual school was never inspected though.......and you never know!!

[Old-Duffer]

hel1,


Based on your last post, I would approach the Air/Defence Adviser at the Singapore High Commission and explain your problem to him. it might just be ....


Another possible line, which you may have already pursued, is to talk with the Keeper of Exhibits at the RAF Museum. Besides complete aircraft, there are several sites where items are held and - although it will have moved - there used to be something called 'The Reserve Collection'. No: 6 Site at the former RAF supply depot at Stafford is, I believe, still home to a significant collection of items.


Have you tried the museum at Old Sarum? This now houses what used to be the Boscombe Down collection. I was there about 18 months ago but cannot recall any rotary stuff. Finally, and again you've probably already tried every angle on the Westlands approach, could it be that another aviation museum (Manchester?) might have large Belvedere bits.


Depending on how you intend to display the aircraft, can I suggest something which you might think shows I've lost my marbles. If the front of the aircraft is shown with the covers on, is it feasible to fabricate those elements of the front which remain exposed? It wouldn't necessarily have the strength to support blades but it might permit a reasonable representation to be achieved for display purposes.


Old Duffer

[Tiger_mate]

O-D > Check PM

[ShyTorque]

A lot of chat here about Whirlwind XR453. I was at Odiham when it returned from Shawbury to become the gate guardian. It was still in Training Command colours of red, white and grey and in pristine condition. It still had some fuel in the tanks and fluid in the windcreen washer system (I tried it).

We reckoned if we could get a battery for it we could start it. TG, the Stn Cdr, specifically forbade us from doing so.

But it almost never got to Odiham and neither did I!
Ham E. and myself were flying XR453 on 27th April 1979 and we got involved with a search for a missing light aircraft in North Shropshire, after a pilot had made a Mayday call. We were about to RV with the SAR Wessex coming from Valley to take over from us and as the viz wasn't brilliant I switched on the searchlight to help him see us in the haze layer. As soon as I did that, a Jaguar appeared very close in front, head on and climbing right at us. He immediately rolled right and pulled and we avoided each other by a very small margin. Not only did we hear his engines, but we smelled his exhaust fumes as we couldn't avoid his downwash. The Jag pilot was using Shawbury/Ternhill (rotary wing only) LFA on an ad-hoc and unauthorised basis and I believe he got a rocket for doing so. We later got an apology from the Jag pilot who said that he hadn't seen us until I put the searchlight on.

[BigDen]

225 Sqdn, at Simmamnggang and did a number of two week stints at Jambo with the 1st 10th Gurkha rifles. Thanks for the memory

[Tiger_mate]

As OP, this thread was a very productive one for me in providing much needed information to ensure that my project served to preserve the aviation heritage associated with RAF SH Ops in Borneo. I know the Navy were there also, but on this occasion, they dipped it. (Any pun intended). My project is not over for I will shortly turn my attention to Belvedere Ops, though Tengah is the most likely location for any depiction. The Whirlwind has reached its final destination; and here it is for all to see. I appreciate very much the contributions, facts, banter that have graced these pages:- Thank you.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jan-2015/984204-image.jpg

...... and a special thank you to the Old Duffer who like a Jack Russell knawing away at you ankle; never let go!

[Old-Duffer]

Tiger Mate et al,

Sycamore pointed me to an update of this Thread.

I can confirm that the print is top notch, thank you.

As to the Belvedere, I'm uncertain as to the Tengah connotation. 66 were based at Seletar throughout their Far East life but of course detachments and individual aircraft roamed all over the place - the ferry of several Belvederes across the sea from Singapore to Kuching must have been pretty exciting for those who did it!

There are some sensitivities regarding the transfer of aircraft from Aden (26 Sqn) to Singapore/Borneo and whether the crews (air and ground) remained on 26's books or were reposted to 66. However, that won't affect your painting but what will, is the colour scheme you choose. I hope the photos you have and the contributions from others will have been of use to you.

Although never associated directly with the Belvedere, I am looking forward very much to the results of your labours - put me down for a couple of LE prints!

Old Duffer

[atilladehun]

My log book shows I last flew **484 on 20 December 1968 my crewmen being M.NAV MELTON and Flt Sgt CLARKE. This was as SAR pilot with 103 sqn in Singapore. Task detail merely says"MCU airman swallowed dye" . I was posted back to Tern Hill in Jan 1970 to run the Elect Eng section but managed to do a small amount of post maintenance test flying until I was forced to attend JC&SS. Looked like **484 just disappeared.

[Cornish Jack]

my crewmen being M.NAV MELTON ... presumably Tony Melton, ex Javelin back-seater who banged out over Pakistan east-bound in 63/64???

[EdBoyle]

With the Cameronians at Bad Lippspringe 1963http://www.edwardboyle.com/EB/RAPC/RAPCmisc/Cameronians/Bad%20Lippsrpinge%201963.jpg

[Old-Duffer]

Somebody should tell the Jocks, that the door's on the other side!

Old Duffer

[Lordflasheart]

" .... with their backs to the wind in the Northern Hemisphere ..."

[Ngapuhi66]

Boy does time fly or what? apologies for the extremely belated upload, I have created an Album and put most of the slides that I could get - I have got more but some were so badly damaged :( hope someone can identify some of the guys in the photos, besides my Dad :)

[Ngapuhi66]

I finally got an album (https://www.pprune.org/g/user/436689) uploaded