Request input from Air Nuigini and Airlines PNG aircrew.

[A Squared]

I might be opening a can of worms here, but hopefully this won't turn ugly. I'm asking for some responses here in order to perhaps alleviate some frustrations, or at least gain a better understanding of them. Hopefully any response will be offered in the same spirit.

Disclaimer: I have no official position at my company, I'm just a line pilot. Any thoughts expressed here are 100% my own and are in no way reflective of my company's policies or positions.

OK, that said, I fly for the Herc operator. You know who I mean. It's my understanding that we have received complaints from both Air Nuigini and Airlines PNG forwarded through CASA about our communications procedures. The most recent one references an inability to contact our aircrews on the proper designated frequencies to resolve potential traffic conflicts. I'd be interested to read a more complete description of such incidents so that I have a better understanding of the specific issues underlying the complaints. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of the correct frequencies and procedures, but if it's coming up short I'd certainly like to rectify that. Certainly if it comes to light that there is something that we as a company are chronically doing incorrectly, I'd pass the information along to the powers that be so that the misunderstanding could be corrected. So anyway. I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who could shed some light and takes the time to respond. If you're not enthusiastic about posting on an open forum, feel free to send me a PM. I'd certainly respect your desire for discretion. Thanks

[E&H]

Good to see you are seeking comment...I agree with Mach 12...I think at the start it was difficult to place you in the area at Tari however I have no problem now (I am a Dash 8 Captain) but the position 28 south of Hagen/Goroka means nothing to me...maybe that needs rethinking...also Tari, Kiunga need better radio comms even a MBZ type set-up I think our company is looking at this...the traffic in this area and the comms is out of control and in my view is dangerous...there are times when you can't get a word in...however at the moment I have started to adopt your calls of downwind, base and final especially on busy days when you are trying to enter the runway and taxi out these calls are invaluable...

[A Squared]

Thanks for the responses Mach Twelve and E&H As far as the routing itself, I'm not in much of a position to affect our policy on that. About all I can do it try to make sure that we're communicating with other traffic, and are on the correct frequencies in the correct places. I'm certainly open to suggestions on that score on how I might make things easier/better/safer for all concerned. For the record, our normal routing is direct from Nadzab to the initial fix on the cloudbreak procedure at Tari. This route coincides with the NZ 270 degree radial, and passes 20 NM south of Goroka and 28 NM south of Hagen. I realize that a position report relative to those points is pretty much worthless to other traffic. I always try to give my position relative to Goroka, Hagen, Moro, or occasionally Yobal when talking to traffic climbing out of Hagen on that track. Thanks for the positive comments regarding Tari ops. That is a very busy little bit of airspace. I'll confess to being a little lost there at first, what with all the local place names in the traffic calls, especially from the helicopter guys. I've got a pretty good handle on where things are in the Tari area now, but it's still not relaxing.

[Mach E Avelli]

A2, thanks for opening this to discussion. T'other day one of your Hercs was at 18000 Nadzab to Tari. We were also at 18000 inbound to Hagen and picked you up on TCAS. It looked as if we would come too close for comfort so we dropped down to 17000 and saw you pass less than half a mile ahead, so no doubt it could have given us both a fright had we both stayed at 18000.
No criticism of either you or ATC, who had on this occasion given us you as traffic.
But it highlights the desirability of modifying your route if possible to pass much closer to Hagen so that any traffic in or out of there would be safely below you. It would add very few track miles.

[ResumeOwnNav]

Gday A squared,

As already mentioned above, I also have had no issues with you guys in the Tari basin and can't fault your crews there. The tracking and level enroute sometimes causes some stress, especially when Moresby have neglected to advise you as traffic. As mentioned already.

Are there any queries / concerns you have faced from our side?

On a side note, are you lads having a short field landing competition back into Nadzab? :)

[Waghi Warrior]

Fly the blue line routes to make things easier simple answer. If the traffic density wasn't an issue it wouldn't be much of a problem. More of an airmanship issue methinks, no rules busted as long as old mate in the Nadzab Fish Bowl lets you guys come in and out on the desired radial all is legal.

[A Squared]

Thanks for the additional posts. I haven't had an opportunity to reply before now. I see a couple more votes for re-routing over Goroka and Hagen. Certainly this would make life more convenient for traffic for Mt. Hagen and Goroka out of Morseby. However, as I noted in my previous post, I'm not in a position to make this change to our operation. All I can say is that those at the decision making level are aware of the preference.

Thanks Mach e Avelli for adding specific example. As it turns out, I may have been on that plane, either that or a very similar situation to the one you mention. Assuming that was the same event, we were aware that we had you as same altitude crossing traffic, we had your target on TCAS, and we had heard Madang call us out to you as traffic on HF. I was about to call you on 120.1 when I noticed on TCAS that you had begun a descent out of 18,000 ft. Knowing from the HF exchange that you were aware of us, it was obvious that you were taking preemptive action to resolve the conflict, so I didn't contact you on VHF and continued to monitor on TCAS as you crossed below us at 17,000ft.

So, noting your preference that we not be flying in that particular area, is there something else you think we could have done differently is this particular situation? Should I have contacted you anyway on VHF, even though it seemed clear that the conflict had been resolved?

For the sake of discussion, that same (or very similar) conflict could just as well have take place even if we were on “blue lines”, if you were flying Moresby-Wewak (or Moresby-Vanimo) over Mt Hagen NDB, and we were flying Nadzab-Garoka-Mt.Hagen-Tari. Seems like the same elements would be in play; (No ATC, dependence on traffic reporting, self separation on VHF, etc.)

On the topic of off airways routings, on my last tour in PNG (would have been about 2-3 weeks ago) we were returning from Tari to Nadzab, and Madang called out opposite direction traffic, an Air Nuigini Dash-8 going from Nadzab direct to Moro. Aside from being a few miles south of our route normal route, this is pretty much identical to what we do, and they were reporting their position in the same manner as we do. I have also noted on several occasions a Dash-8 (which I believe is operated on contract for the Ok-Tedi mine) flying Nadzab direct Tabubil, which again, is not meaningfully different than our standard direct routing to Tari. I'm not trying to point fingers here, or to create any sort of confrontation, but honestly, if there is a meaningful difference between us flying LAE-TIZ direct and PX flying LAE-MOR direct, it's escaping me.

On another topic: When operating IFR in and out of Tari, how much separation is considered adequate before continuing climb or descent through the altitude of another aircraft going the other way (Arriving when you're departing or departing when you're arriving) What would be the preferred reference for determining that separation? DME/GPS distance to Moro Ndb? Distance to/from Tari? I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts relating to resolving conflicts in and out of there when the the weather's poor. Thanks in advance.

[Mach E Avelli]

I am no great advocate of gratuitious radio calls, so if we have 1000ft vertical or reasonable horizontal separation, I tend to say nothing and don't expect to hear anything from the other guy.

As for what is 'reasonable' horizontal separation, I suppose it is up to your Company to establish that and put it somewhere in your Ops Manual for guidance (mental note to have it put in our OM!). In clear VMC, personally I would be comfortable with two or three miles, but in IMC would be nervous at anything less than 10nm. Another way of achieving horizontal separation when head-to head - with one outbound and the other inbound - is for each aircraft to adopt a 30 degree track change off the direct course to their respective right, thus giving a 60 degree split. But that pre-supposes both use the same tracking reference and that terrain allows it. Not always so easy in PNG.

[A Squared]

Thanks, Mach. I hadn't thought of each turning 30 degrees right. You're right though, it would be tough to implement coming in and out of Tari.