Second Chinese stealth fighter flies

[backseatjock]

China’s second J-20 stealth fighter has 'officially' taken to the skies with China saying it is the third nation, after the United States and Russia, to operate multiple stealth aircraft.

More than a slight exaggeration of course, as only the US currently has an operational fleet of stealth fighters. China and Russia currently each have a couple of prototypes, which is hardly the same, but the intent is clearly there.

This development might just speed up India's decision making on the MMRCA programme, originally scheduled to achieve contract before the French elections (according to Sarkozy), then by mid year and now reportedly by year end.

Will the election of Hollande in France have any impact, positive or negative, on the proposed sale of Rafale?

You would think not but Sarkozy promised much and the question may be whether the new socialist President and his team will be as committed to the transfer of production (and associated jobs) plus technology from France to India.

Could the door once again open for Typhoon, F/A-18 and maybe even Gripen again? It all certainly seems to have gone rather quiet over there.

[Fareastdriver]

A few piccies of the J20.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/J29-3.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/J20-2.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/J20-1.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/131563172_91n.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/131563172_51n.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/131563172_71n.jpg

[Bastardeux]

I wonder how its stealth compares to that of an F22, or even an F117 for that matter.

[Ronald Reagan]

With India probably the 4th most powerful nation on Earth would think they will want stealth at some point in the near future. Think the French would be mad to do anything to harm the Rafale deal though.

Guess within a decade or or two possibly less the Chinese will be the new global power, possibly Russia/India number two? On the whole the Chinese seem a fairly decent bunch, not to provocative, intelligent leadership who seem perfectly capable of making long term decisions, after all they can't be that useless or their nation would not be growing at the rate it is!!! Compare that to our leadership!!!!!! I know we get a choice but when its between Cameron or Milliband, WOW!:ugh::\
With those two its a case of who can slow down the continuing decline!!
In some ways China seems to be returning to what they once were for so long, a major power, probably soon the greatest power!!!!

I really hope it does not come to war, will the Americans be willing to be number two or even lower on the scale, will the US even survive what with its level of debt? I love the US and have many American friends, I also have many Chinese and Russian friends, but I sadly know around the world which nation is disliked the most! With American and European levels of debt how can we keep going on? Logically at somepoint it must simply come to an end? Who do we blame for this mess, the political leadership of the west?

When my namesake was President the US seemed like a power that would go on for decades totally unrivalled, especially the way the USSR collapsed. Now though it may well be the west which collapses!

[air pig]

The Chinese always play a 'long game'. Reminds me of the old joke, French diplomat to a Chinese one, 'what do you think of the French Revolution' and the reply 'a little early to tell'

The development of China as a more 'open' country following Mao Zedong has been amazing, with the move into the financial world by taking on countries industries and their assets in Africa in particular acquiring rare metal rights. They are going to want to protect these assets, either by industrial espionage or more importantly what they develop as a nation themselves. Development of their armed forces is natural progression. As a more 'open' country the also hold the debt of numerous western countries in particular the USA.

Stealth is not a new technology, and the cost of 5th generation aircraft is exorbitant for a national government as shown by the F22, less you buy the greater as we all know, the unit cost rises exponentially therefore generating in effect a negative feed back. Sometimes sheer weight of numbers have a quality all of its own.

With all the territorial disputes in the area of the Western Pacific, the potential for conflict is rising in the not too distant future, and what if China decides to move on Taiwan, would the US attempt to intervene? There are numerous mineral and oil deposits in the area, and as resources become rarer the potential for conflict rises.

China has demonstrated a willingness to deploy its forces, in particular in the Indian Ocean in pirate suppression missions. This I suspect is just a trial run for the future.

[500N]

Hans't the US said it would come to Taiwan's aide if attacked ?

I think Taiwan is not the main game with China, it was but as you
pointed out, much bigger and better opportunity's in the Pacific
such as minerals etc.

Also agree re piracy missions are trial run. The Chinese Navy has
now even exercised with the Australian Navy - albeit one ship in a
live fire exercise in China.
.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

China has come on leaps and bounds in the last few decades, India too. As for Russia, they are headed backwards to dictatorship.

The idea any of them will surpass the US militarily anytime soon is absurd.

Sure they have a few prototypes of 5G aircraft, but that is all they have.

[Ronald Reagan]

But what if the US debt continues to rise, will they be able to afford the military they currently have? Could they at some point simply collapse? I agree right now the US military is the best in the world by far, but if the country totally runs out of money, what then? Right now the debt just keeps on growing. No nation can keep on ignoring this and keep on spending.

This is rather worrying:-
U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)

As for Russia despite his failings Putin has improved the nation from the 1990s, but with that has come the more draconian aspects to! As a country they probably have a good future, huge land area, reasonable population size and very mineral rich!!!

The increasing friendship of Russia and China must also be an issue for the west, on their own they are powerful, together...
BBC News - China and Russia lead group talks focused on security (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-18336502)

I can see more and more nations wishing to join the SCO in coming years
India pitches for larger role in Shanghai Cooperation Organisation - Times Of India (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-06-07/india/32100606_1_shanghai-cooperation-organisation-sco-india-pitches)

I wonder where all this will end, I hope not badly!

[Vortex what...ouch!]

But what if the US debt continues to rise, will they be able to afford the military they currently have? Could they at some point simply collapse? I agree right now the US military is the best in the world by far, but if the country totally runs out of money, what then? Right now the debt just keeps on growing. No nation can keep on ignoring this and keep on spending.

This is rather worrying:-
U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

As for Russia despite his failings Putin has improved the nation from the 1990s, but with that has come the more draconian aspects to! As a country they probably have a good future, huge land area, reasonable population size and very mineral rich!!!

The increasing friendship of Russia and China must also be an issue for the west, on their own they are powerful, together...
BBC News - China and Russia lead group talks focused on security

I can see more and more nations wishing to join the SCO in coming years
India pitches for larger role in Shanghai Cooperation Organisation - Times Of India

I wonder where all this will end, I hope not badly!

The world runs on the dollar, if it collapses so will the world economy, not just the US. I can't see the US going bankrupt anytime soon, really can you?

Putin is a tyrant, his future is limited, have you not been following the news? Dictatorships rely on secrecy, that has now gone in the world of the internet and knowledge. See Arab spring for hints. And Russia only has a population of about 140m million (most in abject poverty), not large at all.

But really, you think in even twenty years they will match the US. Look at real world power projection and not your anti American prejudices. Give yourself a shake.

[Bastardeux]

When my namesake was President the US seemed like a power that would go on for decades totally unrivalled, especially the way the USSR collapsed. Now though it may well be the west which collapses!

People have written of the US multiple times over the 20th Century, like the wall street crash and the carter years; but it has overcome the doubters each time. With shale gas and oil likely to make it energy self sufficient again, I would say the likely option is a bi-polar world with the US and China as the (very closely matched) top dogs.

National debt is a funny thing in that it can be paid down to completely palatable levels in quite a short time, and even a country with a current account deficit can see it's debt levels falling. America has far too many things in it's favour to be superseded by anyone other than China before the middle of the century, and there are now questions over whether that will happen at all - i.e. China's terrible demographics and the increasing cost of manufacturing in, and then shipping from China.

Will Europe slide quickly down the pecking order? Quite possibly. America? highly unlikely.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I really think that someone is off base thinking the US will relinquish the military lead? Even though OBAMA is a fool when it comes to military matters, we may h change in leadership...romney is commited to increasing our navy and air forces.

we just se4t up a base in Darwin, Australia and we stilll have the only real carriers (though France does have a nuclear carrier to their credit)

[GreenKnight121]

With India probably the 4th most powerful nation on Earth would think they will want stealth at some point in the near future.

They have been a partner with Russia in the T-50 program since at least 2010, and are about to sign an agreement for joint development & production of an operational version for both Russia & India.

[sitigeltfel]

With India probably the 4th most powerful nation on Earth

Then, why the :mad: are they being showered with aid money, taken from hard pressed taxpayers in the West?

[Ronald Reagan]

Maybe to try and keep in good favour with them?!

[racedo]

Reading an interesting book at the moment that is looking at the way China has invested in buying up resources which author claiming its a neo economic imperialist viewpoint.

What is different is that as well as buying the resources the Chinese are heavily investing in infrastructure be it schools, hospitals and roads etc for the population.

This puts them out of kilter with the 1st World economic model which seemed to want to beef up a countrys military, enrich the people at the top and ensure the population are kept down.

Of course this Chinese model may change over time. People seeing the willingness of 1st World countrys to invade and forment revolution at the behest of their multinationals see the Chinese model as a little bit more palatable.

Much as I love the US the short termism by its politicians time and again leave it with enemies instead of friends.

[Ronald Reagan]

The Chinese are very clever at playing their long term game. They do seem to help local populations in developing nations and seem very forward thinking. They are certainly going to control many of resources needed in the long term.

With the Taiwan issue it may one day end up with the majority of people wishing to be part of China! Have read various articles recently talking about that in the long term.

With the American economy and the mighty $ if that were to fail then the economic carnage would be truely catostrophic. Afterwards am sure the east would recover sooner, and it could be it for the west. Places like Australia though may well be able to recover sooner due to the fact their major trade is with the east.

The level of debt in places like Japan is also alarming, can't see much of a future for them, lost out to other nations in the region, sod all resources, large population, cannot really see much of a good future at all for them.

As for Russia a huge country with lots of resources, not overpopulated, you could not ask for more potential for a good future! As for Putin and his many failings, cannot see anyone else who could hold it together as well as he could, if he were to go then it could return to the chaos of the 1990s. I have a large number of Russian friends, most like him, a few hate him, but almost all seem to accept recent improvements are due to him. It could be worse, they could end up with useless politicians like we have in the UK who are not capable of anything!

I would certainly imagine in the long term Russia has more going for it than Europe. I would also suggest their military is not exactly weak and is stronger than that of NATO (minus US forces ofcourse hence their huge importance)

With military force levels I guess the east has an advantage in their equipment is generally much cheaper to build, may not be as good but am sure quantity can make up for quality! When I look at the US and see how many ANG fighter squadrons have been disbanded, the planned cuts to the A-10 force, the small number of F-22s built and no more planned, it is worrying. If cuts keep happening, maybe lots more legacy types will be given up to try and purchase as many F-35s as possible the overall number of bases and units will keep shrinking! If the Chinese are able to increasing then logically at some point they will overtake the USAF in terms of size.

I think the only thing which can save the US is possibly a new President and Administration, certainly don't think Obama can turn things around, no disrespect meant to him though. Maybe Romney can do it, he comes from an economic background, so he does atleast have a good understanding of the problems. Paul Ryan could certainly be one to watch aswell. Possibly these two could be an economic dream team, maybe! But we must not stick our heads in the sand and think things will simply be ok because we are the west, we always win because we always have!!! All of this maybe a temorary setback which can be turned around, but we should remember that empires come an go, look at the Greeks, Romans and ofcourse Britain!!! Look at how far Britain has fallen from where it used to be! Long ago China was an a truely mighty nation, then a while on the back burner, probably the lowest they fell was in the 1930s/40s, now on their way back.

[racedo]

As for Russia a huge country with lots of resources, not overpopulated, you could not ask for more potential for a good future! As for Putin and his many failings, cannot see anyone else who could hold it together as well as he could, if he were to go then it could return to the chaos of the 1990s. I have a large number of Russian friends, most like him, a few hate him, but almost all seem to accept recent improvements are due to him. It could be worse, they could end up with useless politicians like we have in the UK who are not capable of anything!


Late 1990s read that because of influx of Chinese and others and also cars from there and Japan that in east Russia they drive on left.

Article highlighted that paucity of population was likely to cause significant problems in Russian far east going forward.

Wonder of population split across Russia as that would be interesting.



I would certainly imagine in the long term Russia has more going for it than Europe. I would also suggest their military is not exactly weak and is stronger than that of NATO (minus US forces ofcourse hence their huge importance)

With military force levels I guess the east has an advantage in their equipment is generally much cheaper to build, may not be as good but am sure quantity can make up for quality!

Nazi Germanys' equipment generally outstripped anything the Allies had be it in the east or west.

Its great having 250 super Panzers, not so great when faced with 2,500 russian Tanks massed together, sure Russki's lost many but they had another 2,500 available in a month where as there wasn't 250 super panzer replacements.

[Courtney Mil]

Stealth is the spawn of satan. It takes all the gentlemanly spirit out of aerial jousting, rings the death knell for the sport of kings - dog fighting - and renders the only proper means of recovery to home base (the GCA) impractical. So what is it for? Rubbish!

No more of this.

[mike-wsm]

Sure they have a few prototypes of 5G aircraft, but that is all they have.

Look on eBay next week...

[LurkerBelow]

Looks like someone is trying to cross breed F22 and Typhoons - looks like something out of Thunderbirds - The Next Generation

[Bill Macgillivray]

Courtney, spot on! Camouflage was the beginning of the end :ok::ok::ok:

[500N]

China has just purchased a huge station (farm) with the biggest water rights in Australia as per their policy of buying up resources.



Once China gets something right and decides to mass produce, the speed they seem to be able to do it is mind boggling. They may well have quality and quantity in the future !

They own so much US debt, probably not wise for them to cause problems
for the next few years.

.

[Courtney Mil]

Absolutely, Bill. One of the world's greatest fighter pilots painted his triplane bright red. It's saying, "You want a fight? Here I am."

[Bastardeux]

There's something rather unsporting about stealth, isn't there? Something not quite in keeping with the British tradition of fair play...even less so with the prospect of stealthy UAVs. But it is what it is, and appears to be the unstoppable direction of air warfare; at least we are one of the select number of nations that can afford such capabilities!

[Big Bear]

People get too hung up on stealth. It doesn't work at all EM frequencies, otherwise 5G ac would be invisible. It's simply a matter of finding a freq at which the target ac is visible. Isn't it about time the UK invested in some VHF radars?

Bear

[cokecan]

this may be a deeply stupid question, but could anyone who has some semblance of understanding of LO aircraft give a prima face view on quite how stealthy this aircraft actually is?

how much of the development of the F-22/F-35/B-2 has actually materialised in this aircraft - and are we really sure that it is a 'runner' in the stealthy world, and not a smoothed-out MiG-31 FOXHOUND painted dark grey?

[Big Bear]

Coke Can,

It's not a stupid question, but I suspect that any real assessment of its LO capability is not for discussion on this forum.

However, it is important not to focus simply on the platform itself. True LO performance can only be acheived by massive initial and ongoing investment in the platform. Sometimes it is more cost effective to be 'good enough' in order to get into the fight. At the end of the day, China's fighters may not be as technologically advanced as an F-22, however, there will be an awful lot more of them. Together with good SA provided by frequency diverse sensors, they could still be a potent threat.

Bear

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

At the end of the day, the US has been building and fielding LO or VLO aircraft since the 1970s (some would say the 1960s if you take the A-12/SR-71 into account), while no one else has gone beyond building a couple of prototypes yet.

[Blacksheep]

With the American economy and the mighty $ if that were to fail then the economic carnage would be truely catostrophic. Does the USA control the dollar any more? There are far more "Petro-Dollars" (formerly called Euro-Dollars when most of them were deposited in Europe) out in the world economy than dollars in the US economy and, albeit devalued, the dollar may thus survive an economic collapse of the USA.

[500N]

Doesn't China control the US$ at the moment ?


Although I think they are in a bit of a bind themselves
with just how much US$ they are carrying and can't
afford it to be devalued.

Plus the other big market, Europe isn't exactly booming for them.

We are starting to see a slow down here in Aus related to China
slowing down.

[Heathrow Harry]

I suspect you are right but they WOULD invade Taiwan if they thought they were going to declare independence - at whatever the cost - it is really visceral

[racedo]

Although I think they are in a bit of a bind themselves
with just how much US$ they are carrying and can't
afford it to be devalued.

But you are looking at this from a Rational Western Persepctive.

Look at it irrationally, a way of detroying someone else for a generation, not needing to resort to nuclear weapons and all of a sudden it isn't irrational at all.

Nazis invading Russia was irrational, nor was getting bogged down in Stalingrad when if they had ignored it and pushed into mid east a pincer movement closing Suez was a more rational choice.

[500N]

racedo

IMHO, China became stronger partly on the basis of manufacturing for the US and Europe.

If they destroy one of the major markets, then they are going to cause
some real angst at home and in one of the posts by someone, making
sure that the peasants don't rise up again is one of the big fears of China.

Take away a whole load of jobs etc which they have become accustomed to
and you will get trouble. It is already simmering below the surface.

If China had wanted to put the US in deep do do, the last few years
are when it could have done it very easily - own a hep of US debt, US in recession at the same time as fighting two wars, Wall St crash, wouldn't have taken long to cause a run on the US$.

They could still do it anytime they want as they have already crushed
US Manufacturing, still own heaps of US$.

To quote someone who posted before, China is playing the long game
and has that card still to play in the future if needed.
.



.

[Ronald Reagan]

Interesting piece on RT about Chinese top military chief on a visit to New Delhi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtMSXwMn_Tk

[Darren_P]

This adds new meaning to the thread title. Say hello to the J-31;

Aviation Week (http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:95449fed-12dd-49d2-8479-a6e20a1cb3e5)

[500N]

Interesting.

The Chinese do it so much better than the Iranians.

[Father Jack Hackett]

Aw come on, it's Firefox! Where's Clint Eastwood when you need him? Oh yes, he's having a conversation with an empty stool....

[WhiteOvies]

Makes you wonder how much data they hacked out of LM's computers....

[500N]

One hell of a lot by the looks of things ?

I wonder if the US will ever know just how much ?

[chopper2004]

Did Chinese plane have mid-air crash with UFO? | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4962798/did-chinese-plane-have-mid-air-crash-with-UFO.html)

Any advances on the second prototype?

Cheers

[TBM-Legend]

...remember quantity has a quality all of its own!

[chopper2004]

Ah a numbers game then :) guess they can afford to that then :)

Still think whatever clipped that airliner was the next one up which we'll prob find in a few years time either by YouTube or those who are brave enough to stand outside their flight test center :) without being caught, shot or harvested for their internals lol