Checkout flights and instructor ratings

[A330B777]

Do you need an instructor rating to do a check out flight for an aircraft renter?

[Talkdownman]

In the UK the Owner or Operator of the aircraft determines the qualifications of the person doing the 'checking'. It is not a CAA FCL matter. It might be an issue for the aircraft insurance company. PIC must be determined in advance.

[mad_jock]

You don;t even need to have a valid license or a rating or medical to be a check pilot if the CFI or insurance peeps say so.

[foxmoth]

In fact there is no legal requirement to have a check out flight, if you are licensed for the type you can just jump in and fly it. Depending on type and your experience it normally makes sense to have a checkout, and even if you are well experienced you should at least read the a/c manual if you can (I have flown a few vintage/homebuilt types that have not come with any manual and not even someone that I could get a briefing off, but I would say I have the background and experience to do this - but even then I would prefer to do it with checkout, manual or brief).:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I suspect that the law, and the insurance company, may well have different
views on the subject.

Our vintage taildragger could quite legally be flown by any SEP pilot with tailwheel differences and no checkout, but the insurer makes it quite clear that they want a formal checkout with an instructor.


One other thing - only if it's an instructor can both log the flight, and then with the instructor as PiC. If the checkout-pilot is not an instructor only one person on board can log the flight.

G

[foxmoth]

I suspect that the law, and the insurance company, may well have different views on the subject.

Very much depends on type - Vintage taildragger, the insurance company will probably be very fussy, want an instructor checkout and minimum hours [and not always sensible requirements - I was involved with a Harvard that the insurance wanted 250 hrs on a/c over 250HP - but no tailwheel requirement (before tailwheel endorsements needed)]. C152 or Pa28 it will probably just be a fairly low min hours requirement and not too fussy about a checkout.;)

[Whopity]

If the checkout-pilot is not an instructor only one person on board can log the flight.Is a check out some form of test? Surely it must be or there would be no point to it? Who is in charge? presumably the check pilot? Is he exercising a piloting function? Is the person being checked exercising a pilot function? presumably he must be or there would be no check conducted. Now what the Law says is quite clear:
79 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and
every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under this Order must keep a personal flying log book in which
the following information must be recorded:

(2) Detailed information about each flight during which the holder of the log book acted
either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or...

(3) The information recorded in accordance with paragraph (2) must include:

(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
and
(e) information about any test or examination undertaken by the holder of the log
book whilst in flight.So it would seem to me that there is a legal requirement for both parties to log such a flight.

There is no reason for the check pilot to be an instructor as the flight does not meet the requirements of Art 80 but it does meet the requirements of Art 79.
People are often confused by the minimum crew requirement for certification purposes; there is no maximum requirement, that is the prerogative of the "operator". The CAA may not count certain hours for various purposes, but if there is a legal reason to justify the original comment please tell us where it is.

[Genghis the Engineer]

flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order

Surely doesn't include a rental checkout?

G

[mad_jock]

I would say its not a test under the regulations mearly an insurance requirement. Unless of course the pilot is outside 90 days on class and other regulations kick in.

[3 Point]

Well said whopity! Nobody understands that there is a difference between the minimum crew certified and the actual crew designated for a particular flight!

Two PPLs flying together, one checking the other, the check pilot is the Aircraft Commander and the other is under training so the Commander logs PIC the other logs dual. No need for any instructor rating and no conflict with the "purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal" clause because these two are operating under the "Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft" clause.

Watch out for EASA though, I have a feeling that things change and only an FI (or CRI, IRI etc) can give instruction whether for license issue or not.

Happy landings

3 Point

[Talkdownman]

I think the Art 79 requirements would be fulfilled if one person records flight time as PIC and the other as SNY, with the individual operating capacities to be determined in advance.

Two PPLs flying together, one checking the other, the check pilot is the Aircraft Commander and the other is under training so the Commander logs PIC the other logs dual. No need for any instructor rating
How can loggable dual training take place without an instructor rating on board?

[Whopity]

In a Personal Log Book, the holder can log anything they wish; some things are not acceptable to the Authority and they clearly list those to avoid confusion. For a checkout to be meaningful, surely there should be a record of it, what better place than the log book?
How can loggable dual training take place without an instructor rating on board?
Simply because its not for the purpose of qualifying for a licence or rating! (Art 80) Don't confuse what is creditable with what may be recorded. Anything can be recorded and Art 79 states "any test" not one required by regulation.

[3 Point]

Well said Whopity!

Training for the purpose of Art 80 requires an instructor rating. Training for other purposes such as type conversions, familiarization with new or difficult airports, checkouts to meet the needs of individual operators' or owners' (or their insurance companies') wishes etc etc does not require an instructor rating but should be recorded as Whopity says. Both pilots are members of the operating crew as per the previous discussion about the difference between minimum crew for certification and the actual crew designated for a particular flight.

Don't expect it to count as dual training for the purpose of Art 80 however!

We had a couple of non instructor rated check pilots in my flying club who were authorized to do club check flights with other members. It was clearly stated in the club Ops Manual that on these flights the check pilot would be the aircraft commander and the pilot under check would be dual, perfectly leagal. The only reason we don't do it anymore is because both these individuals now hold CRI ratings and are therefore instructors!

Happy landings

3 Point