Basing? Decisions?

[The B Word]

Just read CAS' latest PR12 Briefing Note and I noticed the following lines...

With regards to our basing, it is important, given the cost of maintaining our estate, that we occupy only the estate that we absolutely require. I believe however that we are moving towards a more stable footing for you and your families. This is of great importance to me and is very much a part of the New Employment Model in which we shall strive to sustain the minimum necessary basing within reach of affordable housing, civilian employment prospects for your families and good education for your children. In the future I envisage a more stable laydown for the Royal Air Force, with our Combat Air aircraft at Coningsby, Marham and in Scotland; our ISTAR Force at Waddington, Air-Transport and Air-to-Air Refuelling Force at Brize Norton, and our Support Helicopter Force at Odiham and Benson. Our training is also similarly stabilising at: Cranwell, Halton, Valley, Shawbury and Cosford, with our A6 and A4 forces at Leeming and Wittering. Increased basing stability is an important pillar of the Whole Force Concept, and the Air Force Board is determined to do all that we can to reduce uncertainty in our Service lives.

...does this mean that the Scotland basing debate is open again? Or does he think devolution is on the cards! What of St Mawgan? St Athan? Linton? Scampton? Henlow? Wyton? Woodvale? Colerne? Weston on the Green? Manston? Northolt? Boulmer? High Wycombe? Etc? All are conspicuous by their absence in CAS' note - or am I being stoopid? :}

Lot's of mention of New Employment Model (NEM) and Whole Force Concept (WFC) throughout the note and in this short paragraph. Does that mean that the SFA (read Married Quarters) reduction in entitlement, loss of CEA and increased use of Reserves is going "full steam ahead". As well as being stoopid am I also getting paranoid? :uhoh:

The B Word

[Climebear]

IIRC, Wyton is no longer an RAF Station but comes under JFC. Similarly, the school at Manston is part of DFRMO which falls under Army HQ - it is no longer an RAF station. (mind you Odiham and Benson also fall under Army HQ - through JHC).

The technical training at St Athan is due to move to Lyneham (already announced) along with other Defence technical training.

I'm not sure that many would desribe the housing around Brize Norton, Benson, or Odiham as affordable (apart from Mr Cameron).

[Lima Juliet]

Climbear

I'm afraid that Benson and Odiham belong to HQ 1Gp (RAF No 1 Group - 1 Group Stations (http://www.raf.mod.uk/no1group/groupstations/)) and the houses up the M40/A40 around Bicester and Banbury are affordable (~£200k for a 3 bed) and within 30-40 minutes of Brize and Benson :ok:

LJ

[Bob Viking]

For who exactly? That is about 8 x the salary of a newly promoted Corporal I believe!
BV:ooh:

[John M]

The technical training at St Athan is due to move to Lyneham (already announced) along with other Defence technical training.

Sorry to disagree, but the training currently being carried out at St Athan is NOT in the first stage of the Lyneham project and the second stage is still subject to review.

[Lima Juliet]

BV

Try looking on Zoopla. £130k would buy a 3 bed terraced or a 2 bed semi detached in Banbury. Also, a Cpl earns between £26k and £33k, so should be affordable if they have saved for a deposit and if their wife works too (mortgages normally 3.5 times combined salary - so if wife earns £12-15k then easily affordable). My original quote of £200k for a 3 bed would buy a very good house that is streets ahead of the crap that DHE pedddle as fit for purpose! Plus, they would be on the housing ladder rather than paying into a rental black hole.

Also, there are the cheap loans under the Armed Forces Homeownership Scheme (AFHOS) and Long Service Advance of Pay (LSAP) to help out...

...all doable with Banbury to Benson a 40 mile journey and Banbury to Brize a 26 mile trip. Plus there are other places to live that may be closer to each station at similar prices.

LJ

[andrewn]

So I read into it that:


Linton will close and BFT consolidate into Valley/Mona
The Leuchars/Lossie decision is still TBD
I'll stick my neck out and say Typhoon to stay at Leuchars with GR4 to be phased out of Lossie but with the door remaining open for JSF 'B' to eventually be based there.

[Bob Viking]

Furry muff.
BV:oh:

[Al R]

If SFA entitlement is going to take a bit of a kicking, solace maybe, in that Mervyn King is expected to hint today in his quarterly inflation report that interest rates will stay put until the end of next year at the earliest as well as a downward forecast for the economy and upwards forecast for inflation.

There are various schemes out there to assist with house purchase, lenders are increasingly sniffy but they seem to like the regularity of military income more and more these days. In 20 years time, the jncos and junior officers of today will possibly look back on this period as their home buying sweet spot - just as I look back on the early 90s repo period as mine.

[Climebear]

LJ

Nope they are still within the JHC Orbat and are listed as their units on their website (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/AirSafetyandAviation/JHC/JointHelicopterCommandUnits.htm). No1 Gp list them as AOC 1Gp has been delegated the Full Command responsibilities over RAF Personnel within JHC.

In the modern world (away from the relative simplicity of previous years) it would interesting to see a definition what actually comprises an RAF Station that makes it RAF.

We are now 'lodgers' on most of our own sites as the land, buildings, and utility infrastructure are owned by DIO.

Organisationally, several of our units (and a significant number of our personnel) fall outside of Air Command.


John M

It may be in the second stage (currently under review); but, it is still in the plan(for now).

New Employment Model (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/Personnel/NEM/)

There's been a few rumblings about the future of SFA post NEM. However, the NEM is considering 'Future Accommodation' and, I understand, that all options are considered before some options are discounted. This would bring SLA into the frame (for consideration) too.

...NEM will deliver an alternative approach to the provision of accommodation for Service Personnel, which will better meet future needs for good quality, affordable housing.

[Wensleydale]

if their wife works too


Despite frequent postings to other areas and the arrival of kids......

This is the scenario for permanent separation tours - the perfect way of improving moral not!

[Pheasant]

With Merlin leaving Benson for Yeovilton what is the justification for keeping it open just for Puma? Surely there would be a large overhead saving to have only one helo base for the RAF? Yeovlton manages to operate 100+ mixed FW/RW quite happily, and Culdrose operates about 65 mixed FW/RW as well.

Seems that the RAF are retaining a lot of unnecessary real estate.

[BEagle]

"....a more stable laydown for the Royal Air Force"

Is that yet another new staffing wanque-word? The only 'laydown' I can recall was as in 'Option Selector - Laydown Land' during the Bucket of Sun checklist.

Great place for basic training, Valley. Such an excellent weather factor for unrated baby Bloggs and no real terrain issues at all....:rolleyes:

What happened to that daft idea to move the UASs from Wyton to Wittering without any ATC support? Or has the advent of risk-aversion suddenly woken up to such a bolleaux idea?

Maybe ULAS could return to Benson if the Merlins move to Yeovilton?

Banbury to Brize is going to take roughly an hour most of the time - assuming that you would use the A361 rather than SatNaving your way through the back lanes past Jeremy Clarkon's pad. The queues in both Chipping Norton and Burford can be quite impressive at many times of day....

[Unchecked]

Word is that some elements of the chinook force will move to Benson after the Merlin has departed. There is no room at Odiham for any extra aircraft or personnel. Exactly what element moves to Benson is yet to be decided, but with the Chinook OCF groundschool being held there in the Sim building I think you can imagine who it will most likely be.

[Whenurhappy]

Some interesting work was done in 2006 for the last 'RAF Strategy' (check your crew-room magazine rack) on housing post 2013 'lay-down'. [Beagle - see, there's that word again].

I think this has been posted before, but DASA did some sterling research on the affordability of housing around the remaining bases compared with military salaries (banded by rank: ORs, JNCOs, SNCOs, Jnr Os, Snr Os etc). In most locations, SP would be having enormous commutes - inversly proportional to their rank - to reach 'affordable housing'. The RAF, along with the other Services, suggested a substantial housing grant to personnel who had completed x years of service to encourage them to live outside the wire (an a concomittant ROS). The Treasury were to be convinced, but an interesting business case was put forward, comparing the costs of encouraging home ownership vs maintaining a large and aging stock of SFA. The concept did not survive contact with the enemy: The Treasury pointed out that once public monies had been given (or loaned, as it happens) to SP, they could not avail themselves of public accommodation. In other words, if an SP took money to settle down, they couldn't go back in side the wire - even on posting - without paying punitive commercial rates.

The other issue, which DASA uncovered, was the expected rise in RTAs and fatalities that would result from more SP commuting even longer distances. In the RAF (of 48K at the time), DAS found that a futher 10-15 RAF personnel would be killed each year as a result of a policy shift. It would take a brave Commander to sign up to that!

[Melchett01]

Word is that some elements of the chinook force will move to Benson after the Merlin has departed

I think that particular jungle drum has been beating for a while now - otherwise you can see the Bean Counters looking to either get rid of Benson (assuming you could put a smaller Puma Force elsewhere) or have the Army move in - 1 Regt AAC might be a likely candidate on return from Germany.

However, if the RAF gets it s full complement of Chinook new buys, an alternative could be simply to leave 28 & 78 at Benson but re-equip with the new version of Chinook. Yes, there would undoubtedly be real estate issues, but don't forget the Merlin force is currently managing to survive on that patch of land with how many ac operating out of 2 hangars? Working on a similar principle i.e. that not all the new buys would be on station at the same time (ops, ex, maintenance etc) it might be a plan. After all, can you reall see the Air Command hierachy wanting to give up a runway just down the road from High Wycombe? I lost count of the number of times I saw HS-125s taxing past in my time at Benson!

[Dovegrey]

&quot;a more stable laydown for the Royal Air Force&quot; I love the way this is being sold as ‘stability’. A positive spin if ever I saw one! There is no doubt with all the annoucements on basing we are working towards an New Employment Model where you stick your family where you can afford to buy/rent and, then if not posted nearby, face a weekly and quite lengthy commute to work. Hmm, there a number of problems with this as previous posts have pointed out: 1. Accident rate will increase. 2. Divorce rate will increase . 3. Lack of movement in and out of bases will cause people to become stuck in their ways and the lack of fresh eyes to look at practice may lead to an increased air safety risk (read ‘Who moved my cheese’). 4. Morale will drop as people get married for a reason and actually living with their partner and family is quite important. The prospect of spending Monday-Friday away certainly makes me depressed and, to be frank, would make me rather resentful towards my employer. 5. The Monday-Friday military means that people will be less inclined to continue with the ‘can do’ attitude. Thus I wonder just how big an operational impact this will have once the goodwill has gone.The list could go on and on. The trouble is you cannot put a monetary value on such things. And that is what it is all about really – money. I have no doubt CAS and those at the top are fully aware of all of the issues, but they are powerless against the MOD civil servants who really run the show and are pushing through this agenda aggressively and in such a way so that there can be no possible return to the old days. They have the full support of the treasury and the minsters in doing this. So as a member of the Armed Forces there are very few options left. Unlike the police force we have no federation, nor will anyone with influence listen or be remotely interested in problems faced by Service personal and their families. The military covenant is meaningless in legal terms, thus my advice to anybody joining now is accept that this is now a job like any other, but with the added benefits of not being able to chose where you live and being sent to a warzone every now again. Except that’s not where it is job like any other……..</p></p></p>

[Pheasant]

have the Army move in - 1 Regt AAC might be a likely candidate on return from Germany.


I think 1 Regt disappear as part of the Wildcat upgrade - which will be all based at Yeovilton (RN and Army).

[Lima Juliet]

Climbear

I read your reference and it is still as I understood it. The stations belong to 1Gp and the helo sqns are JHC. That would also chime with when I was asked by AOC 1 to help with a Unit Inquiry and NOT by Comd JHC.

Now there was rumour that RAF SH airfields would go to 2Gp at the start of the year - does anyone know if that happened during the 1Gp and 2Gp shuffle?

LJ

[Climebear]

LJ - as ever in the modern world it's never straight forward.

As I understand it:

Aircraft belong to Army (JHC)

Costs of people (eg salaries and T&S) fall to Army (JHC) (for now).

Land and buildings and cost of maintaining them fall to DIO

All other costs (eg utilities, aviation fuel) fall to Army (JHC)

Full command of RAF personnel on the 2 stations fall to Air (1 Gp) (I believe that this may also include acting as higher authority for discipline).

I guess the bottom line is who gives the 2 stn cdrs their TORs and writes their OJARs.

[OldnDaft]

Some meat on the bone of the NEM, as it was explained to me yesterday is:
3 blocks of service - first of 8-10 years, second of 10 years and third to potentially take pers to age 60. Heavily subsidised SFA would only be available to those pers in block 1. Block 2 pers would be able to take advantage of a hugely increased LSAP (Up to 50K) to get them on to the housing market. Block 1 pers would also still be able to access LSAP but not as much as block 2 pers. They are also looking to get a greater degree of stability and to improve the (Apalling imo) Proj Zeus and Sirius. The paper on NEM should be signed off later this year/early 2013.

[ALM In Waiting]

Thanks for the info. 50K would be useful as the current 7.5K is not anywhere near enough for a deposit.

[Lima Juliet]

Climbear

Sorry to drag this out but I'm still not getting it:

As I understand it (my comments in green):

Aircraft belong to Army (JHC) - So why do they have "Royal Air Force" logos on them? I believe they are RAF assets and are on loan (TACOM) to JHC

Costs of people (eg salaries and T&S) fall to Army (JHC) (for now). - Salaries no, but T&S will come from JHC budget

Land and buildings and cost of maintaining them fall to DIO - As is any MOD property - sadly!

All other costs (eg utilities, aviation fuel) fall to Army (JHC) - Fuel yes, but utilities is a no - eg. there is no way that JHC would pick up the bill for Oxford UAS for utilities at RAF Benson.

Full command of RAF personnel on the 2 stations fall to Air (1 Gp) (I believe that this may also include acting as higher authority for discipline). - agree

I guess the bottom line is who gives the 2 stn cdrs their TORs and writes their OJARs. - probably a 1 star in JHC as 1RO and AOC 1Gp as 2RO would be my guess?

Can anyone, from RAF Benson or RAF Odiham point us to some de facto info on the internet? Or are you just as confused as the rest of us? :confused:

LJ

[whowhenwhy]

Station and aircraft-RAF but opcon is JHC

[Climebear]

LJ

It's one hell of a confusing picture.

IRRC the aircraft transfered across to LAND's asset register. As for having Royal Air Force written on them, it was much the same as having Royal Navy written on the Harriers (GR) of the NSW.

Utilities - much the same as Leuchars picking up the tab for 71 Eng Regt (V).

The Army's intranet org system has the 2 stations as OPCOM JHC, BUDCON JHC, ADMINCON - AIR.

It used to be so simple; however, now we have the Army responsible for training RAF Loggies and RN Chefs (amongst others) and the RAF responsible for training Army signallers and RN engineers.

Several RAF Squadrons within Army (JHC) and a Royal Artillery Regiment within Air Command.

[Melchett01]

I think 1 Regt disappear as part of the Wildact upgrade

I'm not so sure on that one - it will the Wildcat Force - or whatever name they come up with for it. In the same way that 3 and 4 Regts still exist within the AH Force and the way that the individual SH types are now considered as Forces i.e. Merlin Force, Puma Force, Chinook Force. The move to Yeovilton is as much administrative / engineering and cost driven rather than by any desire to remove Regt number plates.

Leon - Ben / Odi Stn Cdrs report direct to JHC for TORs, OJARs etc. As has been described already, think of JHC as being loaned the assets (stns, ac and personnel) by the respective single services. It's a bit like children at school - no comparisons of JHC to a creche please (far too obvious!). The parents 'own' the children and have ultimate responsibility for them. However each day then take them to school and hand them over to a teacher who is responsible for what they get up to during the day, discipline etc. As 'owners' the parents have an input and ultimate sanction, but in practice let the school get on with things unless it all starts going horribly wrong.

[Finningley Boy]

Damning report condemns 'unclear' British foreign policy - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9266814/Damning-report-condemns-unclear-British-foreign-policy.html)

There's a tenuous link here, no pun intended, but a relevant one I feel just the same.

FB

[Climebear]

Melchett. I agree with the people being 'loaned' to the Army (more like Association Football teams than a crèche perhaps) as indeed I am 'loaned' to another Army formation. I remain, and am fiercely proud of being, in the RAF. However, the transfer of assets is less clear. They all transfered across to the LAND asset register (with the estate now transferred onto DIO). So how do we determine 'ownership' (especially with some of the ac going to the RN - but remaining in JHC)? It was interesting to note that the RAF role out of PAYD excluded Benson and Odiham as they were included in the Army contracts.

Now that capability directorates are being rusticated to single-Services, it would be interesting to see where responsibility for SH will sit. I honestly don't know this;but, whoever runs the capability has the money. Having the money gives a fair degree of ownership.

[Bismark]

How about somewhere like Yeovilton:

RN Lynx - assets RN (DE&S really), under command CO Yeovilton
CHF - assets JHC (DE&S really), under command JHC
NFSF(FW) - assets Air Cmd (DE&S), under command CFS(?)
727 NAS - assets Air Cmd, under command CO Yeovilton
Viking RM - assets RN(?), under command CO Chivenor
RNHF - assets RN, under command CO Yeovilton
DE&S - under command Abbey Wood
JEWCS - under command NATO
Flight Safety Centre - under command FLEET AV
Bird Control Unit - under command CO Yeovilton (but difficult to command birds!)

[Climebear]

Similar at a secret Fife fighter (now fighter-bomber) station:

Fg Sqn(s) - under command of Stn Cdr
Wgs - under command of Stn Cdr
FP Wg HQ and RAF Regt Sqn - under command of FP Force HQ (though stn cdr has disciplinary powers of CO)
Resident R Aux AF Sqn - under command of A4 Force HQ (though stn cdr has disciplinary powers of CO)
TA Regt - under command of Regional Bde
RAF Police Flight - under command of PM(RAF)
Dentist - under command of Regional DDS (though stn cdr has disciplinary powers of CO)
MRT - under command of SARF HQ (though stn cdr has disciplinary powers of CO)
DCRE - under RE command.
ESUAS - under command of CFS(though stn cdr has disciplinary powers of CO)
Fire and Rescue - under command of DFRMO (Army).
Bird Control Unit - contractorised!
...


Looking at it from another way.

The training of Movers takes place at RAF Brize Norton by an organisation (within the Army TLB) commanded by a sqn ldr (over which CO BZN has disciplinary powers of CO) who, in turn, is commanded by a wg cdr (also within the Army TLB) at RAF Halton (over which CO HAL has disciplinary powers of CO) who, in turn, is commanded by a Col (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/TrainingandExercises/DCLPA/DefenceLogisticsSchool.htm)then Brig (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/TrainingandExercises/DCLPA/)at Deepcut followed by Maj Gen at Upavon, Lt Gen at Andover...

[airpolice]

RAF Leuchars & RAF Lossiemouth at the same scale. Which do you think has the best potential for long term growth?



http://pittenweem.co.uk/rafscotland.jpg

[Climebear]

What long-term growth?:{

[airpolice]

Closing one and moving assets into the other.

[Postman Plod]

Interesting from those pics to see which has the nearest golf course! :}

[Climebear]

I would sugegst that, in the current situation, it would be more a case of reducing assets at one location and moving other assets into the empty spaces - maximising our current capacity rather than creating more.


(Just to add that I am not advocating for either option as I do not have the facts to enable a educated view)

[Lima Juliet]

It looks like the 1 Sqn decision favours Leuchars...

[Twon]

F35 at Wittering? It has a ski ramp!

[downsizer]

It looks like the 1 Sqn decision favours Leuchars...


Except the truth central blurb says they will be moving to Lossie....

[LFFC]

Mystery deepens with news of second Typhoon squadron for RAF Leuchars (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/News/Fife/article/22860/mystery-deepens-with-news-of-second-typhoon-squadron-for-raf-leuchars.html)

[Biggus]

What's mysterious about a local newspaper slanting the facts to help their local argument, i.e. keeping Leuchars open as an RAF base.

Was the RAF supposed to stop building up Typhoon Sqns prior to the move to Lossie? If not, where would they be most likely to put the new Typhoon Sqn, other than in a current Typhoon base?

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

OldnDaft,

There is (at least there was) a tax issue related to increasing LSAP to something substantial. Mrs D'Sorderlee was involved in this a few years ago and was informed that, regardless of what MOD did, the Tax man would want his cut if you took more than your tax-free entitlement (c£5K ?). Anything above that is liable for income tax.

Duncs:ok:

[OldnDaft]

Yes Duncan that is correct - anything over 5K was/is subject to interest. COS Pers was clear that every effort was being made to ensure a solution was found because the cost of the quarter estate over the next 10 years is unsustainable. Something will definitely happen and it was he who quoted the figure of 50K.

[Whenurhappy]

The MOD - for this will be a Services-wide initiative, will have a job selling this one to the public in the current climate - ie tax-free low-interest loans to SP!