Williams Garage Fire

[NutLoose]

Don't shut the thread it is in a way on topic, anyone remember the people that suffered injuries in Germany when crash and smash went to recover the Harrier that went in and the shards of carbon fibre that had been burnt literally shredded their lungs ? ....

Do you think they are unaware of the hazards posed by burnt carbon fibre shards? as they are seen wandering around the garages here unprotected and in one picture i have seen you can see them removing burnt nose cones etc.

Formula 1 Photo Gallery | Sky Sports (http://www1.skysports.com/formula1/gallery/12837/7754156/williams-fire-pictures)

[bingofuel]

MMMF ( man made mineral fibre) and the consequences following an aircraft accident are well know, certainly amongst the emergency services and is regarded as the modern day asbestosis. Once in your body, it doesn't come out!

[ShyTorque]

Yes, I've wondered about this.

I certainly remember a Harrier crash in Denmark, the first carbon winged one we lost, IIRC. An environmental hazard zone of some sort was placed around it; I remember reading an article about it in Air Clues by the chap in charge of the clean up.

It all went quiet after that and despite a few others being lost the same fuss never seemed to be made about the subsequent crash sites.

[oldpusser]

Looking at the pictures looks like a poor showing by the spainish firemen - the pit crews had to tackle fire in short and tee shirts with all that technology at teh circuit you would have thought a fire engine would have been on the scene abit sooner

[wrecker]

Its worth remembering that it has both Dermal and Inhalation Toxicity

[ShyTorque]

An interesting link is here: http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar98-34.pdf

[Kronenburg]

The effects of inhalation and exposure to polymer composites released in dust form or in the smoke plume of a crashed aircraft are recognised to have a similar effect on the body to asbestos, although the exact long term effects are not yet fully understood.

Needless to say it is not advisable to get a gob full of the stuff or expose any body part if possible. All firefighters on the MOD estate and especially on flying units are trained and equipped to deal with the hazard without compromising the speed and urgency of the response and also to decontam or contain the polymer contamination on rescued aircrew, if conditions allow.

Any initial involvement from off station local authority fire services will likely result in a full blown hazmat incident turnout.

[Rigga]

The last Harrier to crash at Laarbruch landed upside down in a ball of flames on the side of the runway (Pilot got out injured but okay) closing the airfield for quite some while until a clean up was achieved...

The local Fire Orders were changed to reflect wind direction as to which muster points to use (Go upwind from the fire/crash site) and Crash Orders were changed to state that NO-ONE moved towards the wreckage without some form of face mask and cartridge-based respiratory filtration.

The clean up lasted or three weeks and wrote-off three sweeper/cleaner vehicles - so contaminated they were transported to UK for cleaning / restoration / scrapping (dont know which)

[Dan Gerous]

the pit crews had to tackle fire in short and tee shirts

Considering the danger involved with the sport, you'd think they would be wearing more appropriate clothing.

[NutLoose]

It was the smoke that got me, all I could think is if there is Carbon Fibre burning in there which may account for the thick black smoke, they obviously had no inclination of the effects it can cause, one just hopes someone in the team is aware of what has been learnt through service accidents.. The pictures show them walking around the garage post fire again not wearing any protective equipment.

Hopefully it was just rubber and parts of the garage burning, for all of their sakes.





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[bingofuel]

Even rubber can have its hazards. I recall some years ago a warning to emergency services to be aware that certain rubber components in the braking and suspension system of a certain French make of car if exposed to the correct temperature in a fire could give of a caustic substance that would burn skin badly.

[500N]

I would guess that as it was some time after the end of the race,
all pit crew and others had stood down and taken off all the protective
clothing they wear.

You only have to look at the photos of pit crew in action to see
that everyone is wearing full suits including what looks like fire
retardant clothing underneath.

However that doesn't negate the fact that fire services didn't
seem to respond.

The 2nd last photo, left hand side on the page in the link below shows fire hoses being used but by F1 crew, not fire fighters.

Spanish Grand Prix 2012 horror: 16 injured when fire broke out in Williams team's garage | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143912/Spanish-Grand-Prix-2012-horror-16-injured-broke-Williams-teams-garage.html)

[Shane C]

I watched this as it happened live, absoulutely awful!! :(

Although unfortunately, someone got 40% burns but no-body got killed which is the main thing!!

I hate talking about this but reminds me of when the WTC towers came down and when the fire crews/police/port authority and paramedics were searching through the rubble, I watched a programme a while back about later in life and where they are now. People have died due to the exposure of the chemicals inhaled that day...my point is that I hope no-one suffers later in life from this event at the weekend either as there were equally harmful chemicals in the air :(

[Stuff]

It certainly looks like a decent portion of the car's bodywork has been burned away.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/s720x720/149726_396245047081228_149408615098207_1067480_117128101_n.j pg

Plenty more high-res images here Williams F1 - Fire at Williams garage (http://www.f1network.net/boards/read/s107.htm?110,13289007,page=1)

[500N]

Stuff

I disagree.

Their are plenty of photos of the fronts sitting on the ground or being carried away but that is MHO only.

[glojo]

I have no idea if there was a rear entrance to that location but looking at my recording the first flames appeared 279 minutes into the footage, the very first 'proper' fire engine arrived at the front of that garage 394 minutes into this recording some FIFTEEN minutes after those first flames. Yes there were pick-up trucks that arrived with hand operated fire extinguishers but the much larger, better equipped tenders were not at the front of that garage for a considerable period of time.

Was there access from the rear of those garages? I have no idea and I am certainly not going to, speculate, but MUCH respect to all the Formula One team members that assisted to put out that fire.

[Stuff]

I agree the front it largely untouched, I was looking more at the bodywork behind the headbox. There seems to be quite an unnatural edge to the remaining bodywork there but that may well be where the rear piece lifts off.

[Captain Radar....]

glojo. there was a back door, the bbc commentary team were walking towards it when the fire broke out and hung back while the cameraman went in close! Jake Humphries was rightly concerned about the hazard presented by the thick black acrid smoke pouring out of the entrance. There was no sign of an effective on site fire team arriving there very quickly either although para medics seemed to get there after a few minutes. Various f1 team members were dragging hoses and extinguishers in much as they were at the front. People were obviously being affected by smoke, the coughing is clearly audible on the video. Also of concern I would think is the extinguisher dry powder that several team members were plastered in, they must have inhaled that as well.

I can't help wondering why the garages haven't got some kind of fire suppression system, quick don smoke hoods hanging in the garages might have been useful as well. As far as protective clothing is concerned, they only seem to wear it during the race. During practice they dress down a bit for comfort I suppose. Bit odd really the risks have to be similar.

It was impressive to see everyone jumping in though, they aren't stupid people and must have been aware of the risk from fire and smoke. Well done I say, brave effort and I hope they get away with it. :D

[ninja-lewis]

Stuff:

I don't think any of the body work on that car has burned away. Most of the car itself is made of Carbon Fibre, so if the body work was burning you'd expect the rest to be affected as well. It looks like the engine cover was removed beforehand. Other shots show the wings intact under the dust/extinguisher powder.

This paper model (http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9909&start=165) of last year's Red Bull shows similar curves in the engine cover and structure underneath the bodywork.

AFAIK there was only one car (Senna's) in the William's garages at the time but the fire was mainly in a far corner on the other side of the garage in Maldonado's side.

[tartare]

So - if there are problems when a carbon wing Harrier crashes - what will happen when a 787 crashes....?!!!

[air pig]

Remember the MiG Fairford show crash some years ago, as the aircrew from both aircraft had ejected the fire masters would not allow anyone to approach the aircraft, until he had ascertained that there was no carbon present. As the crash site wasn't endangering anyone I think they let it burn out.

Regards

Air pig.

[84nomore]

I was a crash site guard at that incident, in a field next to a campsite. I know no-one went near it as we were stood there for about 10 hours maintaining as large a cordon as possible around the outside of the field. The only person who tried to go near was the landowner and his dog who insisted that they have a look as it was his land!!

[MrBernoulli]

So - if there are problems when a carbon wing Harrier crashes - what will happen when a 787 crashes....?!!! Yet to be found out! But it is odd that my earlier post here about that very subject, including mention of the carbon-fibre rich 787 has been removed! Whatever for? :rolleyes:

[WillDAQ]

It's amazing, PPRUNe is the home of complaining about armchair experts and yet:

It certainly looks like a decent portion of the car's bodywork has been burned away.

Most of the bodywork has been removed. The chassis would have been stripped down for transport shortly after arriving back from crashing out.

No CF fibers in the air, can any of the armchair experts say why? (The Harrier crash is a clue)

[NutLoose]

I thought the removal of your FAA post is odd MrBernoulli, especially as it highlights the dangers to those still in the Services who may not be aware of the dangers, and may one day trigger a memory that ensures those near a future incident are protected from the effects.

[Stuff]

WillDAQ - beg pardon for daring to voice an opinion that turned out to be incorrect Sir. I shall PM you for permission before I dare do this again.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

The hazards of MMF have been quite exaggerated over the years and are nowhere near the levels of danger as previously thought.

That said I wouldn't go eating it for lunch.

[Milo Minderbinder]

whats the actual problem with the composite residues?
The fibre dust from the broken structure? Or decomposition chemicals from the fire?

[Al R]

When a Cottesmore Harrier crashed the other year (the last Harrier crash in the UK?) at the end of the runway, the area was full of locals having a nosy. That day, just to be safe, I commuted home via Cornwall.

The farmers round ere are well ard though. ;)

[Blue Bottle]

some good reminders to everyone about the dangers faced when fighting fires. I know a man that suffers very poor health due to breathing in toxic fumes whilst fighting a fire. Not the first thing you think of when you see flames is it !

[bingofuel]

whats the actual problem with the composite residues?

When I did my training in respect to dealing with the aftermath of accidents the hazard was after impact the structure could break up into microscopic particles which could enter the body by inhalation or through unprotected skin. The respirators required to work safely were very high spec as was the suit.
Once in the body, they could not be removed as they were so small and numerous.

The other danger was any wind could contaminate large areas downwind.

I admit when I was trained I was very sceptical but the trainers were pretty convincing about the hazards.

[ShyTorque]

whats the actual problem with the composite residues?
The fibre dust from the broken structure? Or decomposition chemicals from the fire?

These issues are covered in the document I linked to, in post #6 ;)

[mickjoebill]

It looked like it could have been a liquid fuel fire.

The guys operating powder extinguishers deployed from the front couldn't get close enough to the source. Given the low ceiling and confined space, they needed a (very) long lance (something for Bernie to consider).

In oz, fire brigades quarantine a firemen's turnout kit if it has been in a smoke plume of house fire with suspected asbestos materials.

One thinks of indy car and other races where fire and rescue crews must occasionally be contaminated? And the car carried past the adoring public?


Mickjoebill