Billions worth of equipment to be left in the Stan

[SCAFITE]

The link below from a short time ago looks at the plans for the British Military to remove about 4 Billion pound worth of Military major equipment out of Afghanistan, but recent problems and a cooling of relationships with Pakistan and other countries surrounding Afgahanistan, could result in billions worth of equipment been dumped or left to the Afgahanistan forces.

Britain begins preparations for Afghanistan withdrawal - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9109508/Britain-begins-preparations-for-Afghanistan-withdrawal.html)

Report in the Daily mail this morning now talks for 2 Billions pounds of Military vehicles having to be left, The UK military has 1900 major combat vehicles in place but only 700 have been identified for recovery and 1200 combat vehicles will be handed over free of charge to Afgahanistan security forces, (It would have been a dogs ear getting them all in but ten time worse getting them out) These figures do not include the 400 protected Landrovers already handed over. I think these figures do not include the hundreds if not thousands of support vehicles and rigs that will also be left, vehicles such as trucks, forklifts, ground equipment and spares.

The plan to leave these 1200 very expensive upgraded vehicles represents the largest inventory of equipment the British Army has ever left behind since the disasters of WW2 including Dunkirk and Greece. The last time this happened on a scale similar to this was in 1967 withdrawl from Aden when hundreds of Vehicles were left on the RAF runway and Bombed by the Fleet Air Arm to stop them falling in to the hands of the locals, but these were mainly old RL 3 tonners and Landrovers and not very very expensive kit with some of these vehicles costing more than £100,000 each.

I posted on the last man to die in stan thread earlier and it seems the disaster is starting to fold out before our eyes, let us all hope in just in material and not later on in lives.

[GalleyTeapot]

Not new news, its well known that it would take years to remove all the equipment out there

[Biggus]

I'm not an accountant (nor do I ever want to be...), but I can appreciate some of their points of view.

How much is this kit really worth? It might have cost £4Bn to buy, but is it worth that now, and those costs have already been spent.

Take one of your £100,000 vehicles. It might have cost that, brand spanking new and gleaming in fresh paint from the factory, but now? It has been working hard, in harsh conditions, for several years, has a considerable amount of miles on the clock, and no doubt will need to be refurbished as soon as it arrives back in UK!

So what are the transport and refurbishment costs if we bring it back to UK, all further costs on a tight Defence budget, and what are we going to do with it, apart from put it straight into storage, when it gets here.

The £4Bn figure is headline grabbing and eye catching, but what is the reality behind the headline...?

[Wander00]

And in 60-70 years time a PM will visit and do a deal for it to be recovered as "historically valauble" - I'll get my coat!

[Pontius Navigator]

There was a deal of kit left in the Canal Zone. Likewise when the US had a falling out with Nasser, their ex-new best friend, they just abandoned all their heavy construction plant. It was still there 15 years later, untouched and unuseable.

Cheaper to dump than recover. Besides, if you hand over 1200 clap out vehicles you can probably sell them spares and maintenance. Bring them home and to the transport costs you pay for that maintenance.

[SCAFITE]

All the comments above are very valid, and this will not be the first time equipment has been left or will it be the last, but and it is a very big but, this is huge and will leave the British Army in a poor future position with even more money needing to be spent the next time they go on tour.

The US keep 3 types of Vehicles, Bradley, Humer, and Striker for normal combat, this does not include the odd specialist rigs for IED and other jobs. The UK has up to 26 types of vehicles doing the same job as the above 3, this in my view is the problem. Many of the 1200 vehicles costing hundreds of thousands have not been used and have been failures with many just stored, and quite a few specialist vehicles manufacturing companies have really filled their boots

1900 combat vehicles with 9800 personnel in place and that does not count all the support and logistic vehicles, and with the usual 80/20 rule with 20% doing the dirty jobs with the rest in support thats a lot of wheels.

Is it little wonder we are short of what is really needed Helicopters

I would never be against the troops doing their very brave job, but that a awful lot of equipment chucked at this job.

[Evalu8ter]

There is another, more fundemental set of reasons for leaving kit there - I'm sure it's been covered on PPrune before.

1. A lot of this kit was purchased under UOR; as such the Treasury paid for it out of the Reserve and therefore "own" it. The Treasury effectively writes off the kit asap as the kit's support costs are met by the Treasury until the end of the Op - they have no interest in bringing it back or, indedd, paying to do so.

2. The Army could pay to bring it back, but would then be liable for all of the support costs when it's back in the UK. Guess what? Defence is broke, therefore something else would have to be chopped to pay for it.

3. If it were brought back it would annoy Industry as it would require a huge hole to be blown in future procurements to pay for it, and future support money would go offshore as a lot of the kit is foreign.

4. A lot of the kit is heavily optimised for Afg and therefore would cost significant amounts of money to mod/upgrade for a more worldwide role.

5. Leaving kit to the GIRoA is a good political win.


and, as said before, a lot of the kit is tired and worn out after years of harsh use in an unforgiving environment. A lot of stuff will doubtless find it's way into the Core Orbat but not all of it. Lazy, sensational journalism methinks....

[Pontius Navigator]

Many of the 1200 vehicles costing hundreds of thousands have not been used and have been failures with many just stored,

I think you just countered your self-righteous shock and horror.

[SCAFITE]

The following link show the British Army operate 6000 combat vehicles included in that figure are the vehicles we are talking about.

Thats just short of 20% of the Army combat vehicle force to be dumped

Modern equipment of the British Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_equipment_of_the_British_Army)

Originally Posted by SCAFITEhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/485189-billions-worth-equipment-left-stan.html#post7185930)
Many of the 1200 vehicles costing hundreds of thousands have not been used and have been failures with many just stored,
I think you just countered your self-righteous shock and horror.

You are spot on I must have got it all wrong

Still as long as we can just willy nilly spend billions more on the next lot not a problem just leave the heaps behind in fact just leave the bloody lot behind and just move on and forget it ever happened, all just a bad dream really.

[Jimlad1]

As has been noted above, many of the vehicles were bought under UOR funding purely for ops in Afghanistan. While good pieces of kit, they are not intended for wider roles, and often were bought so heavily optimised for HERRICK that they'd be useless in other theatres.
They are also shagged out, well used and have been purchased for a wartime role only.
I'd suggest the ones we want to keep for wider utility will come back. If they don't come back then thats because the British Army was unwilling to make the case to keep them or fund them. That should say something.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Some of these vehicles may be very Op HERRICK specific, but surely it's worth assuming we might operate in a similar landscape at some point again in the future....?

[Milo Minderbinder]

The big question is just how would you get them back?
With Pakistan blocking the passes south, the only other route is through the Central Asian Republics until you reach the ex-soviet rail system.
Its a hell of a long and arduous drive to a railhead followed by an even longer rail journey
And that assumes the ex-Soviet states would allow passage

Might conceivably be more cost effective to actually seize a Pakistani port and fight the way back with the vehicles through the Khyber Pass...

[GrahamO]

If it costs more to bring them back, than they will be worth, it makes complete economic sense to leave them there. To do otherwise is just plain old stupid - something MOD would have done years ago and about which people rightly complain.

Then take the amount of money that would have been spent on bringing back old, battlescarred vehicles and spend it on new vehicles.

Win for industry, win for the Army.

Not exactly rocket science is it ?

[Pontius Navigator]

Some of these vehicles may be very Op HERRICK specific, but surely it's worth assuming we might operate in a similar landscape at some point again in the future....?

How far in to the future? Apart from the cost of recovery, the book cost of transferring to the MOD account, the cost of holding, the cost or training etc etc, how long before they are as effective as the Snatch Landrovers in the wrong context?

Surely after 12 years or so in Afg HMGs enthusiasm for another adventure will be blunted for long enough.

There are plenty of other ongoing projects that will see more capable kit being introduced in the meanwhile. Apart from someone close to me that wears blue and is involved, what has this to do with Air?

[diginagain]

........what has this to do with Air?

The last time this happened on a scale similar to this was in 1967 withdrawl from Aden when hundreds of Vehicles were left on the RAF runway and Bombed by the Fleet Air Arm and a mention of GSE and rocket scientists.

[6foottanker]

Consider your home. You have lived there for 10-15 years, you have bought a lot of items which make the place better, some of which only fit in a particular nook or cranny, some of which would look awful if it were not for the type of house it is. And when you think about it, you have bought an awful lot of stuff and spent an awful lot of money!

Then someday, you decide/need to move house, somewhere smaller now the kids have left home.

How much of that stuff do you actually take with you? How much goes into storage, and just how much do you throw away or leave for the next occupants because it just won't fit, you have something better or you know you're just never going to use it again?

Add to that the fact that you now only have one car and a week to move house, and .... you get the idea. :(

As an AT mate, I would not anticipate the prospective kit return with any sense of joy, especially now we have an AT fleet the size of a single squadron. And how much do you think the commercial freighter bill will have to be?

[NutLoose]

Just drop a Herc load of pikies off at Bastion then relieve them of it when it hits the cross channel ferry.

[sitigeltfel]

A lot of this kit was purchased under UOR; as such the Treasury paid for it out of the Reserve and therefore "own" it. No, the taxpayer owns it. And as usual, will be treated with contempt by the civil serpents.

[Jimlad1]

"No, the taxpayer owns it. And as usual, will be treated with contempt by the civil serpents. "

You've clearly never worked in a proper HQ or Main Building have you?

[Jayand]

At the end of this drawn out, pointless war the last thing I care about is an expensive loadof kit left behind.
Of far greater significance is the utterly desperate waste of life and blood we have lost out there.
No price can be put on that sacrifice!

[NutLoose]

In one......

[sitigeltfel]

You've clearly never worked in a proper HQ or Main Building have you?

Not unless you discount HQ 1Gp as being "proper".

But I managed to escape over the wire before I was assimilated.

[ozbiggles]

Interesting and informative thread this one. I have actually learnt one or two things.
I see NO reason for this to end up in the normal prune hate mail, so let's keep it civil. Its hardly worth getting ones knickers in a knot over this.

[Captain Radar....]

1200 vehicles? Khyber Pass? Sounds like a Top Gear challenge to me!

[NutLoose]

Just think of the amount if fuel left in those 12000 vehicles.

At the end of the War, Paul Mantz bought a load of surplus US Aircraft realising there would be a use for them in the American film industry, at one point he had amassed so many Aircraft, ( 475 bombers and fighters ) that it was said he had the Worlds sixth largest Airforce, this cost him $55,000, but when the USAAF delivered them, he sold the fuel remaining in the aircraft making a profit on the original investment of $55,000. He then retained 12 aircraft for film use and sold the remaining 463 for scrap which again was a handsome profit.

Indeed more on that from here

Airport Journals (http://www.airportjournals.com/Display.cfm?varID=0409007)

Following the war, Paul Mantz Air Service handled tasks including flying daily film rushes into Hollywood from distant locations. In 1946, he invested $55,000 in 475 surplus bombers and fighters, much to the amusement of his friends. At the time, it was the world's sixth largest air force. The fleet of surplus had cost the American taxpayers $117,000,000.

Mantz ended up bringing a dozen of the best ships to Burbank. His partners in the deal disposed of the rest of the fleet for scrap. First, however, they drained the fuel tanks; the fuel alone sold for more than he had paid for the entire fleet. Then, Mantz netted $160,000 worth of scrap aluminum, $100,000 worth of Plexiglas, more than 1,000 good engines, and a warehouse full of 6004-A oxygen regulators that an embarrassed U.S. government bought back, at $75 each, for their own postwar airplane fleet.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nut, there was a similar case in UK. I could make a guess at the entrepreneur but:

He went to a war surplus auction and bought a truck. I might have been a Bedford 30cwt. When he went to collect it he was asked when he was going to remove them. He had bought 100!

Each truck had a covered tilt. He opened one and found a brand new motor bike inside. He was assured that this was part of the deal. He found a motor bike in each one.

From planning a simple one-man truck operation he became a fleet owner in one bound.

Such profligacy continued of course. We furnished our first home with solid oak furniture that Kinloss fed on to the local market at around £20 a throw. They were told to stop it and pass everything through the official sales at Stirling. One day, somewhere in Forres, we saw single oak ended beds one pound each. That sorted a bedroom out too.

Not just the RAF. Boeing in the early '90s defurnished all their hirings in Lincoln and the stuff was sold knock down in a hangar sale at Waddo.

Who ever came up with Resource Accounting did the secondhand and surplus market a power of good. We even managed to buy a paint locker back from our local surplus store for £35 against the stores price of £495. Better, the MOD actually owned that £35 locker so the monet went from Strike to some other department where the administration fees probably ate it up anyway.

[Dundiggin']

Nice one matey!!:ok: I know loads of pikies just let me know when the vehicles are available. Oops! too late.....the pikies from here have already left!!
No doubt they'll be selling lucky heather and clothes pegs on the way over!!

[SCAFITE]

I posted only what had been printed in the paper that day,one reply stated in was Journo rubbish, but it is pure fact as far as the number of vehicles goes.

The UK force out in Afghanistan has 1900 combat and protected vehicles out of a total force of 6000 for the whole of the British Army, and possibly thousands of utility and logistics vehicles and IMHO I don’t think one vehicle will be recovered. It is most likely no one on this forum including me knows just how much material is out in theatre and the consequence of the loss of that material on an Army that is already strapped for cash. As one poster has stated the country is land locked and there is no place to run.

There have been many valid reply’s including the ones about the cost effectiveness of recovery , and of course the tragic loss of our service personnel, but in the end materialistically it will be one of the biggest disaster the British Army has faced including WW2.

We can all come up with excuses about funding and it is no use back in the UK, but it is disaster coupled with the loss of all the logistic and other vehicles, plus god knows how much in spares and tools that will simply be abandoned. It realy does sound like some Victory or not.

The lives of our personnel is of course the most important factor in withdrawal and I am sure this will be sorted no problem, but the loss of Billions worth of equipment of all shapes and sizes that fiscally we may not be able to replace could leave the British Army in a very poor state.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Do you suppose we'll bury them secretly so in 70 years time anoraks will get terribly excited about digging up the hugely valuable historical treasures. Why doesn't the MoD sell futures in them?

[diginagain]

The lives of our personnel is of course the most important factor in withdrawal and I am sure this will be sorted no problem, but the loss of Billions worth of equipment of all shapes and sizes that fiscally we may not be able to replace could leave the British Army in a very poor state.
Just how many lives to you propose to put at risk in this recovery effort?

[SCAFITE]

None we have almost two years to recover what we can and if the armed forces logistic system cannot organise this we are in a poor state.

Dont get me wrong some equipment will be left behind, but we are talking of the wholsale abandoment of a huge slice of the Army Fighting and Logisitc capability.

How many flights will come back almost empty that could over the 2 year period start to recover and salvage some vehicles and parts that can be re-used.

An Army that abandons it equipment is on the run.

What of the Royal Air Force where my experiance was, it will now know there is an end game and a logistic withdrawl plan will be in place, and all major ground equipment, Tools, Spares will be on some blokes inventory and will be recovered if possible, it alway has been and always will. Until you get rid of all your RAF Suppliers, and hand your Supply network over to the Army, and it will end up the same old game of dumping equipment. The British Army has never changed

[Avitor]

The politician who got us into this war will shortly be able to buy the lot in one fell swoop.

[diginagain]

None etcOK, you win. I can't compete with logic like that.

[VinRouge]

What of the Royal Air Force where my experiance was, it will now know there is an end game and a logistic withdrawl plan will be in place, and all major ground equipment, Tools, Spares will be on some blokes inventory and will be recovered if possible, it alway has been and always will. Until you get rid of all your RAF Suppliers, and hand your Supply network over to the Army, and it will end up the same old game of dumping equipment. The British Army has never changed

Thats a bit unfair old chap. First, learn to spell. Second, the closure of the Ground Lines of Communication out of this place have more to do with why stuff is now being left behind. Lets also not forget that the kit is in a million different mod states, is on UOR purchase so therefore has no long term funding and hopefully we will never need to use this highly specialist kit again in the near future. Why would the brown-jobs want to pay long term for kit maintainance, training and disposal that was originally funded through the treasury reserve? Different budget, not their problem. The kit will cost more to extract than they can gain for surplus, so whats the point in moving it?

The longer we fly bits of land rover, wooden chocks and lifex kit out of theatre to be sold for buttons at surplus, the less valuable stuff will be brought out. The easiest, simplest way of doing this if there was the will to withdraw kit would be to cut a deal with the talibs to allow a big long convoy out of the place in a one-er. It seems there is no will to do this, possibly due to reasons speculated above, so I imagine the kit will be staying put.

[Fareastdriver]

cut a deal with the talibs to allow a big long convoy out of the place in a one-er

They did that in 1842. In the 90 miles they had to travel 16,500 were slaughtered.
One, with his horse, made it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Scafite, I see what you are driving at and FED is not quite right (or wrong).

When we left the Canal Zone I believe the Army abandoned a lot of WW2 stored stock for much of the reasons stated above. The RAF OTOH recovered a Hastings C1 that was fairly modern but had been declared Cat 5. That aircraft later saw service as a T5.

Remember, when we left Aden and the Canal Zone these were both potentially opposed departures and a lot of equipment had to be abandoned for various reasons.

In the case of Afg we are there by invitation and will be departing leaving a friendly Government in power. Equipment left behind is therefore being turned over to a friendly country.

and if you believe that last paragraph

[Lonewolf_50]

Pontius has the best angle on this, in terms of the support contracts potentially in store for somebody.

(If any of you want to weep about waste, see Gulf War 1991, and the mountains of stuff the US DoD left in Saudi and Kuwait, some of it buried, some simply abandoned).

But there's another way to look at these vehicles, which I'll call the three baskets:


One of a kind mods for Afgh only: Grant to friendly government, in as is condition. (See contracts above for a negotiated package)
Stuff inop: strip for spare parts, fly the spare parts out, leave the carcases for scrap/salvage. Aviation analogue: Hangar Queen / Parts Locker
Common equipment for Brit Army: Ship/fly a few cherry one's out, (after first cannibalizing from basket 2) or, treat as item 2, but only harvest for hard to get or critical parts. Leave the rest for the locals to deal with / use as they see fit.
I have ignored the "demil" detail as I'd assume that to be obvious.

This leaves the Army with least waste, a plus up to the spare parts account from previous fiscal years' money, and a few usable items "gifted" to help with the diplomatic angle. Also, the scrap/salvage may well come in handy for local forces as they apply their ingenuity to using industrial grade scrap/salvage.

[Halton Brat]

I don't give a rat's ar$e about the kit.

Just bring the boys & girls home asap.

That medieval cess-pit is not worth one drop of their blood.

The sooner we declare victory & make our exit, the sooner they can get on with the business of reverting to the ungovernable collection of fiefdoms that the region has always been. The Taliban and Pakistani SIS will assist them in this task.

HB

[diginagain]

Nice plan, Lonewolf_50, but despite your endeavour, I don't think it'll cut the mustard with SCAFITE.

[Halton Brat]

And another thing.

At least the guys in the Stan have done their best on the 2-way range to reduce the ammunition stocks in theatre.

Just imagine if Defence Secretary (2006) John Reid's hope that we would leave Afghanistan "without a shot being fired" had been fulfilled.

What to do with all the bullets?

HB

[orgASMic]

https://www.defesa.gov.br/arquivos/File/2011/laad2011/andy.pdf

Take a look at this presentation from ACDS (Log Ops), presented by Air Cdre Andy Gell last year on logistics transformation (I know, I know 'yawn'). Slides 21-28 are about Op BROCKDALE, the redeployment of materiel from Iraq in 2008/9. Slides 30-34 give a summary of the challenge in Afghanistan for those who have not been.
FED might have given us the worst case scenario from our last expedition there, but the point is well made, if a little sensationalist. The Force Protection burden would be huge. Op PIKE (the road convoys from Basra to Kuwait) was a challenge both in logistic and FP terms and it was a walk in the park compared to the similar task from Helmandshire to the Pakistan border. That is if the Pakistanis reopen the crossing point for us. The drive from there to the port at Karachi is no picnic either. Get a map and look at the other overland options - not pretty.
'Use AT' you say? - great idea. Whose? At what cost? Using whose fuel? Every gallon (diesel or avtur) is worth a fortune due to the effort to get it there. AT will be used to fly home the important, expensive stuff (like people, weapons and crypto; the last two having been stripped from the barely road-worthy UOR vehicles that are unsupportable back home).
Anything that gets left behind would have zero net book value once it got home or will have political value as a gift to GIRoA. Everything else will be needed back home or destroyed where it is and a new one bought in the UK, whichever costs the least. Rest assured that the National Audit Office will be all over this.

[SCAFITE]

But there's another way to look at these vehicles, which I'll call the three baskets:


One of a kind mods for Afgh only: Grant to friendly government, in as is condition. (See contracts above for a negotiated package)
Stuff inop: strip for spare parts, fly the spare parts out, leave the carcases for scrap/salvage. Aviation analogue: Hangar Queen / Parts Locker
Common equipment for Brit Army: Ship/fly a few cherry one's out, (after first cannibalizing from basket 2) or, treat as item 2, but only harvest for hard to get or critical parts. Leave the rest for the locals to deal with / use as they see fit.
I have ignored the "demil" detail as I'd assume that to be obvious.

This leaves the Army with least waste, a plus up to the spare parts account from previous fiscal years' money, and a few usable items "gifted" to help with the diplomatic angle. Also, the scrap/salvage may well come in handy for local forces as they apply their ingenuity to using industrial grade scrap/salvage.

The post above is bang on

Nobody is saying that certain BER Equipment will not have to be left behind and yes some equipment will not be worth bringing back, this is common sence.

As the post above state we have 2 years to look at this and now is the time to start the logistic plan unless it is already in place. With a bit of forsight we could save Millions if not Billions of re-usable parts and equipment. We know we are coming out, how we come out will be a reflection on the Military.

Post like I dont give a rats arse about equipment is understandable when it come to loss of life, and no life should be put in danger to recover equipment, and most of this kit will end up at the main bases whare it should be safe to carry out any recovery.

On AT, unless it is mission crit equipment you would not put on AT, but over the next 2 year just how many flight will there be into theatre and any spare space needs to be filled on a slow programe of returns. In 2 years you will be suprised how much stuff will be shifted almost un-noticable to the main operation. More thats done now over 2 years will save lots of pain.

Dont get me wrong if the power that be stated that right chaps you have all got to be out next week thats a different ball game, but it not like that you know whats coming over a long period.

Yawn Yawn Logistics it a pain in the Arse we all know, but a pain in the Arse that will not go away.

[Pontius Navigator]

Scafite, two points:

First plagarism. OK, you do refer indirectly to the orign of your quote but it would have been polite to attribute it and show it was a straight quote. You could either use " " or [quo te] [/quot e] (remove the spaces).

Secondly logistics is not a PITA. One reason the Dardanells campaign began as a fiasco was it started as a naval operation with the army planned to garrison the defeated Turks; it was not planned as an amphibious assault. The logisitcs organisation was completely wrong footed by both the plan and how it evolved.

I think we all know that without logisitics nothing else amounts to a string of beans - the aircraft that deploy without weapons and are wholly dependent of the in theatre supply of fuel and weapons - the troops that deploy with rations and equipment that they can carry which will last for bare days - the fleet without the train etc.

You argue that spare spares be returned to UK over the next 2 years. But a useable spare in theatre may be required tomorrow. You also suggest any spare space needs to be filled on a slow programe of returns. but occupied space equals weight and weight equals fuel. To uplift a greater weight out of theatre more fuel will need to be trucked (or flown) in which in turn would reduce the inbound payload.

The wholly is a carefully balanced act that despite the lack of the right equipment (a different argument) seems to be a remarkably successful with water, fuel, food and ammunition being delivered in sufficient quantities.

Another aspect you have not touched is 'other nations' that will be facing a similar issue. The very tenuous exit corridors will, like the Berlin airlift, need full international cooperation and coordination.

[diginagain]

One final thought from me on the subject; SCAFITE (apt, BTW) - don't you think that this matter is being given a great deal of consideration by a large number of people as part of their everyday function? Now, pop that dust-coat onto its peg and pull the shutters down, would you.

[SCAFITE]

Sorry lonewolf 50 I hit the wrong button and was of course refering to your post which is one of the few post to look at the core of the problem other than we do not give a fook about our equipment and lets get out of here.

We have been out in theatre since 2001 and in numbers since 2006 and the whole of the service logisitc system as been cut back in that period. As far as the RAF Logisitcs goes possibly even worse, and when we talk about RAF logisitcs we dont just mean Stackers or Ex Stackers like me, we mean Chefs, MT Drivers, Movers and even the good folks who maintain and Fly the AT fleet who are in the bigger picture just cogs in a bigger service Logistic wheel.

Are we now going to pay the price of I dont give a toss about Yawn Yawn logistics in 2 years time.

If I have got folks backs up then I am sorry, but the services are faced with a huge problem bubbling away, sod all to do with me I stacked my last Blankets in late 2002 and now run my own small company with a logistics function running containers out of Hong Kong and China. If I get it wrong it just costs me money, if the service get it wrong it will cost a lot more.

In the end I did not print the report in the paper, I did not report this on TV, and as one poster put it the NAO will dance all over this when it come out in the wash.

I have edited this in responce to the last poster, Yes I have hung up my brown dust coat and pulled the shutters down see you all in two years.

[Pontius Navigator]

Scafite, it was not my post that you quoted but that of Lonewolf which underlines the need for proper quoting. You can still edit your earlier post and give proper attribution.

[Al R]

I'm sure the BBC could have done it cheaper if it set its mind to it.

BBC News - How will Nato exit from Afghanistan? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17999603)

Like, have a human being talking to a.. camera.

[Distant Voice]

There's a bunch of guys in the Kinloss area who are working their butts off to preserve Nimrod XV244, and MoD will not provide them with a simple power set.

DV

[Finningley Boy]

One thing you can be sure of, this recent infuriating revelation will not be the post script of our elected half wits' folly in Afghanistan!:(

FB:)

[Echo 5]

The last time this happened on a scale similar to this was in 1967 withdrawl from Aden when hundreds of Vehicles were left on the RAF runway and Bombed by the Fleet Air Arm to stop them falling in to the hands of the locals,

What was the source of this gem ?:hmm:

[hval]

Sell the stuff to civvy contractors who will remain out there after the departure of UK armed forces. The Chinese might like to use it. They have a fair number of mineral extraction projects ongoing. Or open a scrappy.

The Afghans had rather a lot of Soviet kit left over from the last time there was a mass exodus.

Final suggestion is to put all vehicles in to deep storage at Bastion & leave Bastion guarded by civvy contractors so that the equipment is ready for the next excursion in to Asia.

[GrumpyGramps]

"The last time this happened on a scale similar to this was in 1967 withdrawl from Aden"
I'm curious about that. Granted we left a load of junk behind, but the 84 Sqn Beverleys were flown all the way home (8 days in my case) to be scrapped at Bicester on arrival. And no, it wasn't to use the load carrying capacity as my aircraft had a cracked main spar and carried crew plus crew baggage and a limited fuel load, but no freight. We understood at the time it was to 'save face'!
Things have presumably changed, so bring home the troops and leave the heavy clapped out junk. (No need to tell them the oil has been drained out of the gearboxes and replaced with sand etc!)

[Fareastdriver]

My old AEO had just left the RAF and had joined the Aden Levies, as an officer. He was there at the pull out and he descibed how military, both Army and RAF were arriving at the airfield in vehicles and just handing him the keys. He selected a couple of the best for his own use and the rest were commandeered by his unit.

There was no mention of air strikes.

[Pontius Navigator]

GrumpyGramps,

Saving face was the same reason the 'scrap' hastings was recovered from Egypt or the 'cat 4 or 5' Victor 1 was recovered from Butterworth.

In the latter case it was grounded and unflyable when the Victor 1 Det handed over to the Vulcan. There had been some problem and they had bodge taped the aircraft seals and left it. Some time later they opened the organ loft and found it full of fungus. A voluteer crew eventually flew it home. No idea if it was converted to a K1.