RAF Para Wing observation

[P6 Driver]

I've just seen a first (for me), and this is in no way a criticism or gripe...

Duchess Gives Out Royal Warrants (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/duchess-gives-out-royal-warrants-10052012)

In the last photo, a Warrant Officer wears two forms of parachute qualification badges. I know I don't get out much, but how common is this?

Just curious.

[99 Change Hands]

Perhaps the "Parachute Trails Team" has its own insignia.

[longer ron]

Doesnt look unusual to me !

The half wing = PJI (para jump instructor)

Para badge on right shoulder = qualified parachutist (who has served with an airborne unit)(or perhaps is operationally qualified)


Edit...perhaps this is a better explanation for the 'operational' wings,it refers to the army but I am sure the RAF will be similar...

The Parachute Badge with Wings insignia, which depicts an open parachute embroidered in white flanked by a pair of wings embroidered in light blue, is only to be worn by a qualified parachutist who has subsequently been on the posted strength of a unit where he may be ordered in the course of his duties to parachute. Those who do not serve with a parachute unit are permitted to wear the Parachute Badge without Wings, colloquially known as the 'Lightbulb'

[longer ron]

Reminds me of the 'Fairy' chief we had on the Canberra ocu at Marham,I believe he had been with the Chindits during WW2 ...he had 'operational' para wings and a few strange medals.During his inspection one year the AOC did a double take and said ''christ you have been around chief'' :)

[Melchett01]

I think the OP is talking about the badge half way down the WO's right sleeve - and above his rank.

Looks like the RAF PTI trade badge, the one you would normally see on their T-shirt / vest in the gym, but this time on No 1 uniform.

Can't post a link for some reason, but if you google RAF qualification badges, it comes up with all the Branch and Trade badges you can wear and this one is on page 7-31.

I'm not sure whether the 'Lightbulb' is still in issue. Had a discussion about this a couple of days back with a good mate who was 'badged' in a couple of units. My argument was that given the number of people you see wandering round with para wings on in the various HQs - especially Army HQs - set against the number of airborne or para qualified units, my guess is that there must be a lot of people out there who have done the jumps course only and thus should be wearing the Lightbulb vice full wings. His thinking was that he couldn't remember a Lightbulb being worn / awarded for a long time and thought that people nowadays just put the wings on regardless.

[longer ron]

Yes I ignored that one melchett because it is the PTI badge,it did say in the link that the WO concerned was a PTI :)

The quote I put up about the para wings means it is now a vaguer qualification than it used to be anyway I guess :)

[P6 Driver]

I think the OP is talking about the badge half way down the WO's right sleeve - and above his rank.


No, as the OP, it was the combination of the Parachute wings and the Aircrew half wing that I found unusual. As I wrote originally, it's just curiosity born out of 24 years of never having seen that particular mix before. Personally, I would have thought the aircrew badge would have done the job on its own.

[Roadster280]

The writeup does say he remustered to PTI after a couple of years. I would be surprised if wasn't in the RAF Regt originally, acquiring his para wings there. It then goes on to say that he remustered to PTI, becoming a PJI.

The Army have a special badge for their APJIs, like a normal set of para wings, but with APJI in the centre. You have to have the basic parachutist qualification to go on the APJI course, so only one badge required.

[Avionker]

joined the RAF in 1979 as an RAF Policeman. In 1986 he remustered to RAF PTI an on completion of the course was posted to RAF Locking. In 1990 he was posted to RAF Brize Norton on to the Parachute School where he completed the PJI course.

No mention of RAF Regiment there Roadster 280.

[Union Jack]

I'm not sure whether the 'Lightbulb' is still in issue.

As worn by members of the Royal Navy Submarine Parachute Assistance Group (SPAG), vide page 9 of http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Reference-Library/~/media/Files/Navy-PDFs/News-and-Events/Naval%20Publications/BR%203/br3book/an39e.pdf

Jack

[langleybaston]

What puzzles me is the reference to ROYAL Warrant: I thought the essence of WO - ship was that the Warrant was from the Secretary of State, and not the Monarch. The latter surely for commissioned officers?

[diginagain]

...... RAF Guterslough ........

WO Coyle recieves his Royal Warrant.

WO Churchyard recieves his Royal Warrant.

WO Isherwood recieves his Royal Warrant.



Quite a few errors in the article. Hope someone has a word with

Editor: Flt Lt S Higgins

[Roadster280]

What puzzles me is the reference to ROYAL Warrant: I thought the essence of WO - ship was that the Warrant was from the Secretary of State, and not the Monarch. The latter surely for commissioned officers?

No. Warrant officers hold a Royal Warrant. It is signed by Sec Def, but is in the Monarch's name.

Not that it makes any difference. The oath of allegiance (for Army & RAF) binds the soldier or airman to obey the orders of "Generals and officers set over me". No reference to commissions or warrants. A Lance Corporal derives his authority from the Monarch as much as an MRAF. This of course has led to innumerate problems between RAF SAC(T)s and LCpls. LCpls are officers, SACs are not. Same as Flt Sgts are not WOs, but WO2s are. But then a Flt Sgt's next promotion is to WO, which is above WO2.

[John M]

I think the half wing badge is his PJI qualification. As for the para wings I work on the same base which houses an airborne unit and all of their PJI`s (a mixture of army and RAF) wear para wings. I would imagine that at some time he has served a tour on an airborne unit.

[Lima Juliet]

I know an officer who was rumbled during Court Martial for wearing para wings rather than the light bulb - however, that offence was 'small beer' compared to the main one!

I agree, their are probably 1000s of Walts out there wearing para wings they shouldn't...

LJ

[Roadster280]

No mention of RAF Regiment there Roadster 280.

Quite right. I missed the Scuffer bit.

How does a non-RAF Regt airman earn para wings then?

I was on exercise once with an RAF officer, he was BALO to 5 AB. He wore RAF capbadge on his maroon beret, and Army para wings (as well as RAF pilot wings), as he had passed P Coy. No idea what he wore on his No1s.

I was under the impression you had to complete an "arduous" prep course (P Coy, SFC Selection, AACC) AND serve with an airborne unit to get the wings. I imagine a PTI would have no problem completing the arduous bit, but where's the opportunity?

[alwayslookingup]

As an aside, a long time ago I remember reading that para wings are normally worn on the right shoulder, but if the holder has made an operational jump he is entitled to wear them on the left breast, above any medal ribbons. The only pictorial evidence I have seen of this is various Hereford hooligans, some of who, had them on the left breast even on DPM combat jackets. Any readers shed any light on any of this?

ps maybe WO Isherwood is reading all this and may care to post a definitive answer?

[longer ron]

From another sad forum :)

The gist of Army Council Instruction (ACI) 1589 28 Dec 1940:
- The regular parachute qualification badge was awarded after a specified number of jumps.
- That number seems to have been four, having been reduced from an initial proposal of six. (I imagine that this was increased during the war because of the introduction of kitbags and valises plus the night jump; Sims - Arnhem Spearhead - quotes eight jumps to qualify.
- The badge was worn on the right arm midway between shoulder and elbow (see below)
- Qualified personnel could wear the badge in perpetuity unless they had refused a jump in which case it could be withdrawn.

ACI 1274 17 Jun 1942 primarily revised the position of the badge to 2" below the shoulder seam - the original position led to the wings being worn in front of stripes.

The only personnel authorised to wear regular para wings on the breast were SOE agents who had made an operational jump.

Those were the rules (according to Davis - British Army Uniforms and Equipment of World War Two) that's not to say they were always followed. I can't comment on the practices in India.

SAS wings were not formally approved by the Army Council until 1948 when the SAS were reformed; before that they had only been approved locally. That allowed the SAS - not regular paras - to do their own thing with the badge moving from arm to breast after 3 operational jumps. Off the top of my head, Frost made four operational jumps: Bruneval, Oudna, Sicily and Arnhem - where did he wear his wings? After the war and the disbandment of the SAS, the War Office prohibited the wearing of SAS wings on the breast, that position being the preserve of [glider] pilots' wings.

[John M]

The half wing is clearly described here: RAF Flying Badges_U (http://www.rafweb.org/Badges3.htm) .

[The B Word]

Surely, this is the ultimate Walter Mitty uniform...check this out!

No.1 Dress Uniform RAF Regiment Jacket With Brevit Wings & Wing Commander Braid | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/No-1-Dress-Uniform-RAF-Regiment-Jacket-Brevit-Wings-Wing-Commander-Braid-/130693115080?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item1e6deaacc8#ht_500wt_922)

[Extg3]

Are my eyes deceiving me or does that uniform have Wing Commanders stripes and SAC props on the sleeves?

[taxydual]

Yes, but it does have a button missing. So it's not legit....................

[Airborne Aircrew]

Surely, this is the ultimate Walter Mitty uniform...check this out!

Actually, after the war that jacket would have been perfectly reasonable since many surplus pilots chose to stay in the RAF and remustered to the Regiment.

The major failure of the jacket though is the Wingco rank along with the SAC rank... :ugh:

[Roger the cabin boy]

I think there has been some form of recent change to various badge regs that allows PJIs (and former PJIs) who have served with 5 AB or 16 AA to wear the para wings as well as the brevet. My former OC PMS (ex-PJI) turned up one day with new wings on his arm and tried to explain it. Something akin to the previously mentioned difference between serving with an Airborne unit or not.

Or he might have been BS'ing me.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I might be being a snob but if you haven't passed Pre-Para or P-Coy then you can't wear wings... As to a PTI/PJI having no problem passing Pre-Para... You might be right, (it's easy to run alongside a man carrying 50 lbs and a rifle in boots though), but let's see the same people pass Pre-pre Para - it's a different animal altogether.

PJI's wearing wings is just another manifestation of their fixation with mirrors...

[parabellum]

I was under the impression you had to complete an "arduous" prep course (P Coy, SFC Selection, AACC) AND serve with an airborne unit to get the wings. I imagine a PTI would have no problem completing the arduous bit, but where's the opportunity?


Is it possible he was on the posted strength of an Airborne unit, as Roger the Cabin Boy suggests, if so he would have been expected to go with them in action and jump accordingly? Alternatively he may have been a member of an airborne element of the RAF Police? (If there ever was one?).

Reference Airborne Aircrews remarks, an old Para once told me that Pre-Pre Para as conducted by units like 9Sqn RE etc. and 'P' Company earned the red beret and the jumps earned the wings.:confused:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Parabellum:

When I was on II Sqn. we had cooks, suppliers, radio techs, MT mechs and pencil pushers that wore wings... Every one of them that wore their wings went through Pre-Para and then did their 8 at Brize... Every one of them I served with earned them and I'd be happy to fight alongside them any day...

We also had other tradesmen, (often in the same trades as those mentioned above), that were posted to II despite their protest that they didn't want to jump. Some of them earned their respect amongst the lads, others didn't.... They all remained wingless....

There was also a Rock that was posted to II when I was there... He stood in front of the entire squadron and said, bluntly, he wasn't para qualified and he wasn't f:mad:g interested. I'd still follow Warrant Officer Alec King to the end of the world and am quite confident that, had we ever had to have jumped in anger, Alec would have jumped with us without ever having been trained... There are just some men that you implicitly know will do what it takes to get their men where they need to be... with the absolute intent of bringing them out alive. Alec is that kind of man.

:D:D:D

But yes, everything that came before No. 1 PTS made you Airborne... No. 1 PTS simply confirmed or denied it...

I've been very proud of many achievements in my life but becoming Airborne is hard to beat. Truly, hard to beat.

[Mr. Rotorvator]

From the link in post 5:

0736. Physical Training Instructors badge. The badge, worn by qualified physical training instructors below the rank of WO, depicts
crossed swords with an eagle superimposed, surmounted by a crown. It is to be worn on the right jacket sleeve of No 1 SD (male and female
personnel) and No 6 SD with the top edge of the background ½" (1.3 cm) below the point of the chevron. A white background version is
provided for the PTI Jacket and vest.

I'm not too sure that WO Isherwood should be wearing the PTI badge on his No.1s.:=

[Lima Juliet]

The info on PJI qual badges is here Royal Air Force - Parachute Jump Instructor (http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/britainraf/britainrafparachute.shtml)

In short, they originally wore an insignia on their sleeve, but by 1945 this had turned into a Brevet as they had also been doing the aircrew "air dispatcher" role.

Not so sure they do this these days though as an WSOp(ALM) is carried to do this, so maybe they should go back to the original sleeve insignia with more history behind it?

LJ

[chopper2004]

WHen I was in the UOTC, the RA Wing PSI wore two sets of jump wings, one of which was the Paras as he was P Co trained and he another silver looking emblem which looked suspiciously close to US jump wings. He said they were they were Dutch ones.

Slightly digressing here, but I've seen the then 55th SOS brought their MH-60G to Mildenhall for the 98 Air Fete for the first time. The aircraft commander wore two sets of wings on his brevet patch, one of which was the silver USAF and USN gold wings. Turned out he entered the Navy, flew for a few years on the SH-60B and then transferred to the USAF.

Funnily enough I have come across RAF SH pilots that had transferred either from the AAC or FAA, but they don't appear to wear both sets of wings they've achieved on their flight suits? I am assuming its the regs that says that.

[Trim Stab]

WHen I was in the UOTC, the RA Wing PSI wore two sets of jump wings, one of which was the Paras as he was P Co trained and he another silver looking emblem which looked suspiciously close to US jump wings. He said they were they were Dutch ones.


It used to be customary to hand out host jump wings to qualified personnel from other NATO countries on airborne joint excercises. Usually the requirement was to make two jumps with the host - often this would be the aircraft jump at the start of the excercise, then often they would put up a balloon as part of the endex-hangover recovery day to get in the other. I ended up with wings from four other NATO countries.

It was not considered good form to wear any of them though, but things might have changed.

[Al R]

Warrant Officer Alec King

He would walk around the sqn, pointing out jobs with stabs of his pace stick and the 2ic and Adj would follow in his wake, frantically scribbling notes.

[Al R]

Trim stab,

You could buy your jumps course from Belgium at one point as I recall. Not the best design - like ours but much bigger and worn on the front of your jersey.

[Trim Stab]

You could buy your jumps course from Belgium at one point as I recall. Not the best design - like ours but much bigger and worn on the front of your jersey.


Yep, go a set. Didn't buy them though - did the qualifying jumps and the last one with a massive hangover after a night out in Flawinne.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Whilst pre-para (for RAF Regt) and P-Coy (for Army) are requirements put in place by those organisations for attending the parachute course at BZN it has never been a requirement of the course itself. A certain level of fitness is expected and units that sent folk more suited to MSP delivery would be looked upon in a negative light but there are a few units out there (such a TSW, TCW and a few other mainly RAF units) that have a scaling for jump courses and funded slots due to a theoretical war role.

The wearing of the 'lightbulb' is linked to the funding behind your acceptance onto the jump course. If you are attending to qualify to fill a funded establishment slot (parachute pay payable) then the full wings are the correct qualification badge and this can be retained on leaving the role for which it was awarded. If though an individual attends the jump course as an unfunded attendee with no established parachute role in current post then the 'lightbulb' is the correct badge to be worn. If subsequently though the individual moves to an established parachute role then the 'lightbulb' should be replaced by the full wings.

To sum up, the type of badge initially awarded is based purely on whether the individual is in a funded parachute role. Subsequently the 'lightbulb' can be upgraded if individual moves to a qualifying role but the full wings are always retained once awarded.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Subsequently the 'lightbulb' can be upgraded if individual moves to a qualifying role but the full wings are always retained once awarded.

Such an individual would find it very hard to get respect on II Sqn, anywhere in the Parachute Regiment or any other fighting unit.

[El_Presidente]

Airborne Aircrew Quote:
Subsequently the 'lightbulb' can be upgraded if individual moves to a qualifying role but the full wings are always retained once awarded.
Such an individual would find it very hard to get respect on II Sqn, anywhere in the Parachute Regiment or any other fighting unit.

Yarp...however, the TSW chap who, in 2001 became one of the first members of the UK Armed Forces to get 'boots wet' whilst parachuting into Afghanistan, alongside a load of blades, in order to set up a FARP to support yank egg beaters - well he gets my thumbs up...

The sooner we loose our infatuation with willy waving (I'm more important than you) the better...morale is low enough as it is without the addition of unchecked ego...

:ok:

[Corporal Clott]

Do the dogs get wings as well? :}

http://blogs.discovery.com/.a/6a00d8341bf67c53ef015432147004970c-pi

[Trim Stab]

You are a clott too. Learn to resize photos before you post. We don't all have screens six feet wide.

[Corporal Clott]

We don't all have screens six feet wide.


You should've worked harder at school then Trim Stab...;)

[500N]

CC

Put another way, your joke would have gone down much better
if people could see the dog !

[Airborne Aircrew]

El Presidente:

The sooner we loose our infatuation with willy waving (I'm more important than you) the better...morale is low enough as it is without the addition of unchecked ego...People work hard for certain things. Very hard. Allowing random wannabees to swan around wearing insignia they haven't earned is a far bigger detriment to morale and discipline than your perceived "willy waving".

Your post smacks of someone that has never done anything worthwhile or difficult in their life. As I said before, the training/selection that takes place before Brize makes a man Airborne, Brize merely confirms it. But Brize does not replace the training/selection and it never can. Lot's of people can jump from an aircraft, it's really rather easy and fun if you are of the right frame of mind. There is nothing "fun" about the prior training/selection. You can trust me on that.

As for the TSW chap... I'm sure he's a spiffing chap... Respect and all that... But he's a REMF that was needed where he went and was well protected by others... People who had gone through the training/selection and passed it... I'm sure he felt quite safe. I'm not being disrespectful to him, I'm merely pointing out the realities...

[longer ron]

'Fun' jumping out of a serviceable aircraft ?? ...shurely shum mishtake there :ok:

[El_Presidente]

AA, calm down dear... Chip on your shoulder?

I have had to work hard at quite a few things in my life actually chum; others came easier. For example, passing my ISS was tough but 6 months based in the OSB leading 2 foot/vehicle patrols a day ... now that was a doddle.

Now, are you fishing for a bite or just plain so far up your own derrier that you've lost the map pointing the way out...?

My point is quite simple - we all have a role to play and willy waving only serves to piss people off. Pissing people off is not conducive to team work. Task, team, org...

:E

[Airborne Aircrew]

El P:

AA, calm down dear... Chip on your shoulder?

No chip Princess...just a feeling that people should be allowed to present who and what they are with their insignia without fear of other, less qualified, people pretending.

Just so we are clear, what is ISS and OSB in today's terms... Just so I know who I'm talking to and all that...

[Roadster280]

Jesus, there's a lesson in humility.

I just got a 27" iMac, 2560 x 1440, and I can't get the bloody dog image in!

Edited to add, I did well at school but not that well!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution)

[Climebear]

AA

I might be being a snob but if you haven't passed Pre-Para or P-Coy then you can't wear wings...

Unfortunately, the Royal Air Force doesn't agree with your viewpoint.

PA

Any chance of a female Walt or is there some bizarre way RAF chap/chapettes wear Para wings without doing the selection course and bluffing the jumps phase?

QR(RAF) 435 only stipulates that the individual has to pass either the Basic Parachuting Course or the SF Parachuting Course and then serve in an established post attracting either para or PJI pay to be entitled to wear the prachute badge (with wings). Although some elements of the Armed Forces require Pre-Para or P-Coy prior to undertaking the Basic Parachuting Course it is not a course pre-requisite.

Those that complete the Basic Parachuting Course but do not fill an established post attracting para/PJI pay should only wear the parachute badge (without wings).

:Geek mode on:

Back to the original subject individual then, it would appear that:

a. PJI brevet is worn correctly iaw QR 435 (3) and AP1358 Chap 7 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/9647CE1A_E2F1_FD48_EE58A77DCDE87EBE.pdf) Para 0712.

b. ‘Badge, arm, parachutist (with wings)’ is worn correctly iaw QR 435 (1) and AP1358 Chap 7 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/9647CE1A_E2F1_FD48_EE58A77DCDE87EBE.pdf) Para 0715.

c. PTI badge is not worn correctly as it should not be worn by WOs iaw AP1358 Chap 7 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/9647CE1A_E2F1_FD48_EE58A77DCDE87EBE.pdf) Para 0736.
:Geek mode off:

It would appear that the standard of SWOs may well have dropped if we are letting our people appear incorrectly dressed before Royalty.

[Clockwork Mouse]

I think some of you are confusing the path taken to earn parachute wings with that taken to earn the maroon beret.
Para wings are earned by doing the requisite ground training followed by the appropriate number of qualifying jumps.
The maroon beret is earned by passing P Company with all the blood, sweat, toil and tears that go with it.
Big difference.

[Top Bunk Tester]

I must say that I know TI and he's a thoroughly decent chap, but I'm surprised no-one has yet had a go as to why PJI's get to wear a brevet without going anywhere near selection at Sleaford Tech or Biggin Hill for the slightly more mature individual, or having to sweat blood and tears through AAITC. Granted P Coy is as tough if not tougher, but they don't do that either. If a Jubilee Medal is considered as a cornflake pack medal then surely the PJI brevet is a chocolate one.

Oh and I've taken off 1500 more times than I've landed in an a/c, but still, quite rightly, don't wear wings.

[The Helpful Stacker]

CM - It used to be the case that passing P-Coy was a prerequisite of being able to wear the maroon beret but that went years ago, shortly before they started to dish them out to anyone posted to 16 Air Assault Brigade. I know of a gym-shy RAF MT Sgt who was posted onto 16 Air Assault's strength and took particularly delight in the fact he was now to wear the previously coveted maroon beret.

Perhaps this is where AA should be directing his poorly aimed venom rather than the apparent issue he has with parachute qualification badges which, as already well covered, has (and never has had) nothing to do with a perceived requirement to attend pre-para/p-coy.

[orgASMic]

Politely Amused - the female you refer to could be an acquaintance who is an ex-PJI (she was on the PJI course at PTS as a sgt when i was on my BPC), now commissioned into the Flt Ops branch and serving in HQ 16 AA Bde. She wears her PJI brevet and Para wings and is hard as nails when she needs to be.

[StopStart]

TBT - they work as dispatch crew on the aircraft. I think I'm correct in saying that all RAF personnel that formally work as crew whilst the aircraft is airborne receive a brevet of some sort.

I can probably find you a few CDS containers that have 1500 more take offs than landings. None of them have brevets either :hmm:

[Climebear]

'Other' brevets, in addition to 'Pilot' and 'Rear Aircrew' flying badges, include:

Airborne Image Analyst (IA)

Fighter Controller (FC)

Airborne Technician (AT)

[Airborne Aircrew]

TBT:

or having to sweat blood and tears through AAITC. Granted P Coy is as tough if not tougher

Sorry but there is a huge bubble that needs to be burst here. AAITC is nowhere near as physically demanding as Pre-Para or P Coy. Not even close.

[charliegolf]

Sorry but there is a huge bubble that needs to be burst here. AAITC is nowhere near as physically demanding as Pre-Para or P Coy. Not even close.

93 Cse, AAITC- a walk in the park. With the occasional jog and a bad hair do. Actually, it is a challenging course, AA, and the physical was only a small bit of it. But I do concede your bubble burst.

CG

[parabellum]

People work hard for certain things. Very hard. Allowing random wannabees to swan around wearing insignia they haven't earned is a far bigger detriment to morale and discipline than your perceived "willy waving".




When I attended an AAC seminar in BAOR back in the sixties the then Commander, 1 Br Corps addressed the seminar and was presented with 'honorary' pilots wings which he wore for the remainder of his military life.
Many of us felt this was altogether wrong as he never attended a pilots course, I still wonder if it was 'correct' and allowed?

[Clockwork Mouse]

Perhaps because he had been appointed Colonel Commandant of the AAC. And if I remember correctly he was given an abbreviated pilot's course so could handle an aircraft though not fly operationally.

[gsa]

The maroon beret is earned by passing P Company with all the blood, sweat, toil and tears that go with it

Not any more it isn't, they wear the maroon beret from early on at Catterick during basic training. It was changed a few years ago to give them some "belonging" feeling.

[Finnpog]

No so the Cdo green beret, however.

[Climebear]

When I attended an AAC seminar in BAOR back in the sixties the then Commander, 1 Br Corps addressed the seminar and was presented with 'honorary' pilots wings which he wore for the remainder of his military life.
Many of us felt this was altogether wrong as he never attended a pilots course, I still wonder if it was 'correct' and allowed?

Perhaps because he had been appointed Colonel Commandant of the AAC. And if I remember correctly he was given an abbreviated pilot's course so could handle an aircraft though not fly operationally.

And similar to several pilots, and at least one engineer, being presented with and wearing RAF Regt 'mudguards' after being appointed as Commandant General of the RAF Regt.

[Airborne Aircrew]

It was changed a few years ago to give them some "belonging" feeling.

How very metrosexual... I wonder how those who "belong" feel about their hard work being reduced to an attendance course?

Surely, if someone wants to "belong" to an elite unit it is incumbent upon the individual to get off their lazy duff and fulfil the requirements. Before long DI's won't be able to shout at you in case they hurt your feelings... :hmm:

[diginagain]

Before long DI's won't be able to shout at you in case they hurt your feelings... We're there, already.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I had a suspicion... So... What do the DI's do today, text in an aggressive font? :hmm:

[The Helpful Stacker]

AA - You're about thirteen years too late with your comments regarding the 'devaluing' of the maroon beret, given that 16 Air Assault was formed in 1999 and anyone posted onto the strength of said brigade is thrown one as they walk through the door.

As an aside though the maroon beret has never been purely for paras, it is only through reduction in force sizes and changing roles that the perception that it was only it for paras came about.

[Airborne Aircrew]

THS:

I'm aware that the maroon lid as with the "rampant" Pegasus on a maroon background is the official insignia of British Airborne Forces which also included the Glider Squadrons. Having been in the USA since 1988 I've been a bit out of touch with things in the Army though.

It's a shame they just throw them around now... Another example of the lowering of standards to accommodate the utter failings of the political leaders...

[El_Presidente]

AA

the lowering of standards to accommodate the utter failings of the political leaders

Now that, I wholeheartedly agree with...actually I'd add certain military leaders too...

:suspect:

[Airborne Aircrew]

El P:

Unfortunately, past a certain point in the promotional ladder, the military leaders seem to morph into politicians. :rolleyes:

[parabellum]

Perhaps because he had been appointed Colonel Commandant of the AAC. And if I remember correctly he was given an abbreviated pilot's course so could handle an aircraft though not fly operationally.


I knew he was to be the new Colonel Commandant, didn't know about the potted pilots course. Still think such awards, if awarded at all, should be worn on the opposite side to 'real' wings.

[P6 Driver]

I knew he was to be the new Colonel Commandant, didn't know about the potted
pilots course. Still think such awards, if awarded at all, should be worn on the
opposite side to 'real' wings.


Crikey, on that basis, you might consider that Princes Charles and Andrew might wear their Para wings on the left sleeve rather than the right!
;)

Hat, coat, and running for cover...

[Airborne Aircrew]

Prince Charles was on the Para course before mine in 1979. He completed all 8 jumps IIRC... So, you can't knock him for that. I seem to recall he was made Colonel Commandant or some such of the Parachute Regiment and he was the one that stated that if he was to be such he should at least jump. If true I'll give him credit for that and not complain about him not doing P Coy... :)

[The Helpful Stacker]

So you don't mind him wearing full parachute wings without doing P-Coy (although, as already well covered, the former is not a requirement for the latter) but have a hissy fit about anyone 'lower' than him doing so?

So its purely a rank/position thing then?

[Airborne Aircrew]

So its purely a rank/position thing then? No, nothing to do with Rank/Position... It's an honorary appointment and everyone understands that, (except, perhaps, you... :rolleyes: ). He could have simply worn the wings and got on with it. He chose to at least jump. Kudos to the man for that...

He is not some ne'er do well who finds that they can big themselves up because regulations potentially allow utter throbbers to wear insignia that implies they have actually achieved something. Before you tell me that jumping is an achievement I'll tell you it's not. People who will jump are predisposed to do so and no amount of Pre-Para or P Coy will change that in the man. Actually, that's not entirely true. Either course can persuade a man that he doesn't want to jump but neither course can convince a man to jump.

[P6 Driver]

As far as I can see your reasoning then, if Prince Charles wears wings and you're OK with that due to his appointment, having your cake and eating it comes to mind as the distinction seems a little moveable here.

As far as many people are concerned, the fact that some people have completed a Pre-Para or P Coy course doesn't matter. If the regs state that someone is qualified to wear the badge then it's the regs that are wrong, rather than the individual, surely.

I served underneath more than one cap badge and alongside some "old school" type 1970's ex-Paras in one unit. As far as they were concerned, anyone wearing RAF Parachute badges were not fit to do so, regardless of how they had been earned or awarded. Towards the end of my time, I heard some saying that anyone who had been awarded wings after balloon jumping had been withdrawn had it easy.

It's all relative at the end of the day. I have no problem with anyone wearing any trade or qualification badges, no matter what they are or how they got them, as long as it was done by the appropriate book. Equally, I have no problem with either Prince Charles or Prince Andrew wearing their wings.

[Trim Stab]

was the one that stated that if he was to be such he should at least jump. If true I'll give him credit for that and not complain about him not doing P Coy... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


Apparently he did do all of P-Coy, except milling - on the grounds that it would be unfair on another recruit to be obliged to try to beat up the future King. At least that was the genuinely accepted wisdom on Arsse last time I checked.

However, on the same grounds, I'm equally fairly sure that he didn't do all the (then) eight qualifying jumps. I think he only did the singleton 800ft daylight jump without webbing & drop-kit which used to be the first qualifying jump of the course.


anyone wearing RAF Parachute badges were not fit to do so


LOL - had the same smug snigger when I read Helpful Stacker's clarification of the RAF regulations!

[Airborne Aircrew]

Towards the end of my time, I heard some saying that anyone who had been awarded wings after balloon jumping had been withdrawn had it easy.Then they were BSing... The balloon was always easy. The most you ever did was carry a 45lb dummy container which was really just a jerry can filled with sand. More often than not the jump was clean fatigue and was an utter jolly. Hell, it was the only time I got to do a front somersault exit... :ok::ok::ok: Dennis Wreford, (II Sqn's PJI for a few years), even rode a pushbike out of the balloon for a giggle. Then you hand in your main and, hopefully, unused reserve and it's off to the mess for tea and medals... :)

In contrast the preparation for an aircraft jump took several hours of drawing kit and weapons and packing and checking your container. Then another couple of hours drawing, fitting and checking the parachute. At best it was another two hours getting to and aboard the aircraft where you might spend as much as 5 hours in low level flight before reaching the DZ. At P-30 you would be stood up to fit equipment and you'd often spend 15-20 minutes standing up with a 35lb main, 15lb reserve and a container sometimes in excess of 100lb. All before you jump. Then, at best, you had to carry all that crap off the DZ - If you were lucky the re-org was less than half a mile from where you landed. More often it was a lot further. Then, if this was an exercise operational jump you would carry your equipment, (possibly more than 100lb), 15 miles or more, tactically, across country.

Give me the balloon every time... :D

As far as they were concerned, anyone wearing RAF Parachute badges were not fit to do so, regardless of how they had been earned or awarded.Well... They would, wouldn't they... :rolleyes:

II Sqn. started off doing P Coy. alongside future members of the Parachute Regiment. They also did Pre-Para prior to going to P Coy. After a time it was deemed that the requirements of Pre-Para had proved to be equally as rigorous as P Coy itself and that there was no longer a requirement to attend P Coy. This decision wasn't merely subjective. After a while it was noticed that everyone who passed Pre-Para and went on to P Coy. passed P Coy so it was a bit of a waste sending them.

Your mates were winding you up...

[EODFelix]

AA,

Seem to remember a colleague some years ago in pre-MPA Falklands who was entitled to wear Para wings without having attended P Company. In his previous posting he had served as a member of the Para EOD Section (formed after the QE2 incident that inspired a major movie - in fact the guy who jumped into the oggie with the guys from Poole was our boss in the Ammo Inspectorate during our FI experience!!

Me - I never wore para wings just enjoyed "jumping" - from light aircraft, C130 door & ramp, GSG9s old CH53 anything going really!!!