How many hours student pilot generally have when going first solo?

[roger_hujin]

Hi, I am having my PPL training at the moment (every weekend part time) and now have about 20 hours under my belt, but still haven't been able to go my first solo.

I am wondering if I am kind of slow learner though I have maintained a regularly training every weekend and done my theory study at home carefully, which I have no problem about it at all. It is the flying techniques I haven't been able to completely master.

Would you mind to share with me how many hours generally a student pilot will have when he goes to first solo? If I am indeed progress slowly, I want to know if there is anything I can do to improve my learning, or if I am just in a kind of standard time, so means I am on track.

I knew the time varies and very much depends on individuals, but still appreciate if you can give me a general ideas about it.

[prospector]

First Solo 4hrs 20mins, PA18 cub. But, 54 years ago.

[Fostex]

This could well turn into a pissing contest but the short answer is whenever you are ready. The instructor will only sign you off when they are happy that you are safe and confident enough to command the aircraft on your own. Have you asked your instructor on any feedback on why he/she has not cut you loose yet?

I went solo after approx 8 hrs but had a bit of light aircraft experience as pax in the past. I have known other people who took in excess of 30hrs. It takes as long as it takes.

Enjoy yourself and stay safe. :ok:

[KittyKatKaper]

Just under 30 hours for me.
Took me a long time to grasp the notion that 'trim' was my friend :)

[thorn bird]

Six hours in a tiger moth, in exactly the same time as my great Grand dad. Only difference I didnt have to go to the front the next day. Dont sweat it mate, it'll come, times have changed training has become a lot more anal.

[Ollie Onion]

I instructed for a number of years and I think the quickest I sent someone solo was around the 8.5 hour mark and the longest was around 70 hours (had written exam issues). 90% of my students though fell somewhere in the 15 - 30 hour mark.

As stated above, whenever you are ready!! Makes no difference at the end of the day. Just enjoy the experience.

Good luck :)

[clearblueskyy]

Any time you feel confident with controls of your flight is the right time for you to solo and rely on your instructor for this one . If you screw up its on him. this is why a lot of FI's dont like sending students on solo's until they're really sure , so stick around and keep at it .

PS - chair flying really helps !

Fly safe & all the best !

[Wally Mk2]

There would also be an element of dishonest practices going on in some training schools am sure.That being they tend to bleed you as much as possible out of you as they don't want to lose their golden goose/s:-)
There is obviously a syllabus that needs to be taught & demonstrated proficiently before anyone goes solo. There in lies the problem, what constitutes any one particular person as being ready to be let lose, it's subjective at best.

20 hrs seems reasonable to some & possibly a ripoff to others.
Ask around at yr flying school, try to find out what the typical 'let lose' hrs has been of late.
It matters none if you went solo in 4 or 8 hrs or a 100 hrs it's a goal to be achieved:-)



Wmk2

[Ozgrade3]

Ive sent over 250 students first solo in my time. The target is generally around 12-15 hrs dual. best was 7.5 and i have seen a rather "mature' lady take 200+.

Trim is indeed your friend. key points are to set the attitude you want and trim it. Reduces your workload by 90% if you have it trimmed correctly. Suddenly you have all that headspace to think about where you are going.

Try this, if you can set an attitude correctly, trim it, then say to yourself, loudly at first, "check trim", momentarily open your fingers holding the yoke. if the aircraft attitude changes, you're not in trim. Re-trim. After about the 50th time, you will start doing it automatically.

"hold your girlfriend, dont choke the chicken"......gross but a good descriptor. Hold the yoke gently, just the way you would hold an attractive ...erm...partner. Softly and tenderly. If the temdons on your wrist are bulging, it means you are griping on the yoke, ....means you're out of trim.

Try it next time,let me know how this works.

[dmussen]

Me- 7:15 Victa Airtourer.
Don't be dismayed. The day happened for me in 1970 and I can see the whole of that experience today.
Ask for lots of feedback from your instructors.
As mentioned earlier the numbers vary greatly.
The day you get the Dunlops of the tarmac/grass on your own your heart shall soar with you.
p.s. Don't forget the checks !!!!!!

[Aimpoint]

These days at ex-GAAP airports the larger flying schools seems to have about 14-16 hours of flying before solo in their syllabus. The old school system of sending guys solo in less than 10 hours seems to be out the window in an age of arse covering.

Sounds like you're not quite a natural - which is fine, but it may take a little longer to achieve your goals. Have an honest and frank discussion with your instructor/s to see where you are up to.

The longest student I ever had before they went solo was 75 hours. We had an honest discussion about possibly giving it away after 30 hours, but this pilot really wanted to go solo (but didn't fly much more after that).

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

This could well turn into a pissing contest

What the heck!

7.5 hrs in a C150 in 1973!

Dr :8

[Ornis]

If you worry about it it will take longer. Try to relax and don't over-think the actual flying. You don't say why you are learning; for the challenge and pleasure?

Remember the key to being a safe pilot is using your brains not taking to flying like a duck to water, so to speak. So it doesn't matter if you take longer than a natural flier.

[in-cog-nito]

Working at a quiet country airport with little to no waiting time, I saw on average about half the students age plus/minus a couple of hours to solo.

Working at a place like Moorabbin, where the circuit traffic can be like the Battle of Britian at times, 20-30 hours for a student in their early 20s was not uncommon.

And then there was the amount of effort an indivdual was putting in themselves. Taking notes during the debrief, preparing for the next lesson and so on and so forth.

Makes no difference at the end of the day. Just enjoy the experience.and...
PS - chair flying really helps !Good advice there. No need to put yourself under more pressure by adding a time limt. Think of the extra exposure you are getting to things like different weather, different amounts of traffic density etc etc.

Just enjoy.

In-cog

[Jabawocky]

About 12.......but I am only half as good as Forkie :}

[roger_hujin]

Well, I am surprised to see so many replied in this an hour time. I really appreciate all your suggestions and encouragement.

The school is good and the instructor is also great to me. I knew it is myself who has not been ready for the solo. I knew the importance of trim (thank you Ozgrade3 for a detailed explanation about trim too), but sometimes will not get it right straight. I am also still a bit stressed on my arms, should be as gentle as holding "an attractive ....partner"...that is exactly it should feel like I think. Need improvement on it.

I am still working on my flare techniques, so might still need a few hours to get it right.

The reason I asked this is if I am exceptionally slow than the general, it must be something I missed or did wrong, so I need to find it out and rectify it, but from your reply, it looks I am not the fast one, but still quite general. Considering I only fly one hour a week, I do not expect I will be moving very fast, so as it is normal and on track, I will keep at it until my time comes.

Thank you guys for all the replies.

[zlin77]

12 Hours..PA-28, 1972.

[Tee Emm]

Much depends on the skill of your instructor. Grade 3 instructors which dominate the larger flying schools are inexperienced since most of them have only recently obtained the instructor rating directly after graduation with 150 or 200 hours with a CPL.

Because of their lack of experience it is often the case where they `hang on` to their students longer than necessary before putting them up to a senior instructor for a solo check. It is also a fact over the years that some junior instructors unfortunately also hang on to their students by flying more dual than necessary to make more money at the expense of the student.

Remember whether we accept it or not, most new flying instructors don't necessarily really want to instruct. With a basic CPL of 200 plus hours they do not have the experience to get into the Regionals or even basic IFR twin charter. So they borrow another 10K for an instructors course in the hope of employment at a flying school until such times they can move away for better paying work and build more hours. It has always been thus.

While those that deliberately hang on to their students beyond fairness are in the minority, it is the CFI of the flying school who is often at fault for not keeping his/her eye (closely mentoring) his junior instructors and making absolutely sure the student is checked by a senior instructor at regular intervals to ensure the progress of the student is satisfactory.

Then again, the student may not possess the minimum required standard to be sent solo. Some students learn fast while others take longer to reach a safe standard. This, added to grade 3 instructor inexperience to accurately assess the standard of the student's progress, can often add up to excessive hours before solo.

You are obviously worried about your personal situation otherwise you would not have posted on these pages. Don't let the situation drag on since in the end it will cost you a lot of time and wasted money. Solo flying is where you learn from experience. It is comforting to have an instructor beside you but there is a limit where more and more dual becomes counter-productive.

In your case you should take your concerns to the CFI and ask him to fly with you personally - rather than simply change instructors. If he refuses, then consider your options. If nothing else demand a grade one instructor until you are sent solo. Remember you are the customer and paying for competent flight instruction. You not a schoolboy where you have no choice of teachers.

Much also depends on your airport geographical area. Some city based flying schools have to fly a long way to the training area and this all mounts up since travel time takes up most of the session.

Given the right circumstances such as regular training sessions, experienced flying instructors, good weather and close-by training area, you should be solo between 8 to 12 hours of dual. However, under other circumstances such as that described above, you could find yourself going as much as 25 hours before solo. Serious questions should be asked if that happens regularly at any particular flying school particularly if the student is flying regularly.

Having said all that, occasionally a student turns up that for no fault of his own, simply lacks the ability to be a safe pilot no matter how patient is his instructor. In that case the problem will have been obvious very early in his dual instruction. The CFI must be informed and personally assess the student. The truth may hurt but again the student has to weigh his options.

Because of the tight training schedule at Air Force flying schools a military student falling behind would be risk being scrubbed. The fact he might have had the rotten luck to have a screaming skull military instructor (they exist in civvy flying schools too) was never taken into account.

In fact in the old Air Force days of which this Ppruner is familiar, if a student had not soloed by 12 hours it was assumed he would henceforth struggle to complete the rest of Pilots Course. He was then out on his neck. Of course, civilian flying schools would be quickly out of business if they adopted that policy. If the student has got the money then the flying school always has the timehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Having said that, scrubbed Air Force pilots have often gone on to become airline pilots since they could progress at their own pace and do very well indeed.

[roger_hujin]

To Ornis,

Try to relax and don't over-think the actual flying.

I totally agree with it, I am trying to do it though still not that natural. I knew I need to relax, will keep up on it.

I am not going to take pilot as a career, as your said, it is just for "challenge and pleasure", I do enjoy the flight, just wondering if I missed something so I am kind slow, as what I said in my previous post. I also understand it does not matter much at the end of the day. Thanks for your advice.

To in-cog-nito,

I am not in my early 20s any more and have to work full time through the week, so it might slow me down a bit in weekend. Also, I have my training in Moorabbin, it is not that bad in weekend, but it does have some waiting time.

I completely understand "it does not make any difference at the end of the day" and I am also happy to be exposed to different weather and different traffic situations while my instructor sitting beside me. Just had some 15kts crosswind circuits last Sunday in a C172, not doing great, but I was happy to experience it now.

Thank you very much for the advices too.

[Ixixly]

A few people i've trained have found it hard to trim, one of the main reasons was they flew really ham fisted, that is clutched fist on the control which makes it really easy to overdo control movements and not be able to register that you're out of trim. I've suggested trying to just use your first 2 fingers and a thumb and it makes it a lot easier to identify when you're out of trim and sometimes helps people be a little gentler on the controls.

And as the others said don't fret too much, sometimes it depends on the instructor as well, if they're a bit more rookie they want to be 99% certain you're going to be safe whilst an older instructor with more experience will be able to tell a bit sooner when you're ready to go. Its a team effort at this point!!! enjoy it, use the dual time and ask as many questions as possible. Clearblueskyy is spot on as well, that aircraft might cost you 150-200 an hour but sitting in a chair practicing is practically free!!


And Ozgrade3, you and me must be going out with different types of womenfolk :E

[roger_hujin]

Thanks a lot Tee Emm for your reply. I heard about there aresuch thing out there, but my instructor is a G1 instructor and I think he is doing his best to help me, so I cannot blame him for this.

I think I am a little bit slow, but definitely not "lacking of ability to be a safe pilot". ;)

If I am at my 20s and doing this full time, I am sure I will move much faster and master it easier. Maybe be able to meet the requirement in military and soloed in 12 hours. However I have to do my office work for a whole week, (brain work most of the time, software devs), and doing my study at night, then fly at weekend, it definitely slow me down a bit. So all I can do is keep at it, being relax, more chair flying and enjoy it. The click moment will comes I believe, very soon.

[roger_hujin]

I've suggested trying to just use your first 2 fingers and a thumb and it makes it a lot easier to identify when you're out of trim and sometimes helps people be a little gentler on the controls.

Ixixly, this is a awesome idea. I will try it next time. Thank you very much!

[NIK320]

I got held up waiting for a medical to be issued, the usual hoop jumping continues every year. You would think they would trust the dame assessment by now :P

Ended up solo at 19.5 hours, C152 in 2007.

[in-cog-nito]

I've suggested trying to just use your first 2 fingers and a thumb and it makes it a lot easier to identify when you're out of trim and sometimes helps people be a little gentler on the controls.

Holding the controls that way also tells which way it is out of trim, i.e. nose up or nose down trim required.

Try it next time. You will also see how important it is to hold the attitude while trimming. Pressure on the thumb, nose down trim required. Pressure on the finger tips, nose up trim required.

And don't forget to get little pinky sticking out like you are drinking a cup tea with the Queen.

[Avgas172]

Much depends on the skill of your instructor. Grade 3 instructors which dominate the larger flying schools are inexperienced since most of them have only recently obtained the instructor rating directly after graduation with 150 or 200 hours with a CPL.



What load of rubbish, I learnt to fly in PA38 JEM at YBCS, traffic, (mostly heavy) weather, waiting clearances and transit to the trg area were the deciding factors. The young instructors with low hours were often the best of the lot ..... a certain young instructor in particular saved my arse by telling me to just let go of the controls and let the plane fly if I was in doubt when doing incipent spin training (and I did just that when solo at 20 odd hours and entering an inverted spin at 4000 amsl over double island in the tramahawk) on the other hand a senior Instructor (no names) punched me on short final for rwy 12 because I wasn't going to make the glide approach, nearly causing us both to cark it. Incidently it was 17 hours in my log book for solo .........

[Aimpoint]

During the hold off ensure you look towards the end of the runway - not just ahead of the aeroplane. Amazing that many instructors don't use this technique to solve the final stage of the landing.

[in-cog-nito]

During the hold off ensure you look towards the end of the runway - not just ahead of the aeroplane. Amazing that many instructors don't use this technique to solve the final stage of the landing. That and ensuring the student has their seat position and eye height set right at the start.

[Eastmoore]

Don't sweat it. Just as a comparison.

16.5 hrs for me in C172 but:

1. Early 20's
2. Country airstrip no traffic or ATC.
3. A 5 min taxi
4. Trained by the CFI with over 10000 hrs Instructing.

Any thing less I would still be going.

[Fostex]

Indeed it is worth pointing out that you will probably go solo quicker at an uncontrolled aerodrome however the ATC and RT experience gained from training at an aerodrome with full ATC will count for a lot when moving on to nav.

[VH-XXX]

3 hours to solo, 12 years ago.

PPL in 15 hours of dual.

Probably not enough, but I'm still here !

[65er]

10.0 hrs in PA28 in 1974

[DK08]

it was 30+ hours till i was TRULY ready!

i met a doctor last year who had told me he went solo in the indian air force after just 3 hours! that was quite a while ago though....

[kingRB]

*enters pi55ing contest*

5.5 hours in 1998.

May have logged a couple hours in a glider beforehand though ;)

[Ornis]

If you are having trouble with the landing, you might try flying very slowly down the runway. It's pretty hard to stop the aircraft landing itself.

On the other hand, if you can walk away from a 15kt cross-wind landing you must be doing okay.

[Nulli Secundus]

Roger,

I reckon Aimpoint has probably found your problem. You want your instructor to keep the "patter" up all the way to touchdown, basically doing the thinking for you while you follow his or her instructions. Gradually the instructor can wean off the patter, handing more over to you. In effect, you 'download' the patter your self (in your head) and it all comes together.

Its been a while but my approach was to patter.......... keep the descent coming on....... looking good............ gradually bleed back the power now as we approach the threshold....... start to round out to straight & level with gentle back pressure on the yoke........ now eyes on the end of the runway as you gently bring the power fully back to idle & raise the nose gently to the horizon & ...... keep eyes on the end of the runway as you feel the ground come up around you...... keep raising the nose with back pressure, back, back ........ well done, beautiful touchdown!
(Why its almost orgasmic!!)

Remember, make the aeroplane go where you want it to & feel the aeroplane through the air. Sense the ground in your peripheral vision with eyes at the end of the runway & you're there.

[Dream Land]

I flew my Areronca in the mornings, and afternoon after lunch at a grass strip without ATC (or a radio), 6.5 Tach hours, but if you're only flying on weekends, in a more complicated environment, ATC, other aircraft etc, my guess would be around 20 hours.

I like Ozgrades remarks, probably a great instructor.

[Mike Litoris]

I was 24.5 hrs and getting really frustrated, complained to CFI but he wouldn't listen. Then for other reasons involving another student, my instructor was sacked and my new instructor sent me solo after 45mins. :ugh: Apparently my first instructor was getting students to do more hours than required to fill his own log book. :mad:

That being said, got my CPL after 153 hours, so all in all I was happy.

Don't worry, almost everyone will have issues with one or two areas and use a couple more hours than 'normal', but once they 'click' with the problem, it will all work out. Who knows you may breeze thru other areas faster than normal :ok: (MECIR had me stuffed!!!)

Good Luck

ML

[mcgrath50]

My favourite line from an instructor I had during flight screening a few years back, that I use now myself was, "Hold the stick like you'd hold your brothers penis" While demonstrating the two fingers and thumb technique and making a disgusted face! Sums it up pretty nicely.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

When I first asked about flying, my instructor just pointed at the plane and said, "Fill yer boots."
Solo on 0 hours! I must be the best fcuking pilot who ever lived!:*

[jas24zzk]

<< enters pissing contest also.
2 Hours Dual. Ian Sharp was the man whom had had enough of my gyrations. 1990 YCEM

[training wheels]

<< enters pissing contest also.
2 Hours Dual. Ian Sharp was the man whom had had enough of my gyrations. 1990 YCEM

Serious? I would have thought 'effects of controls', 'climbing and descending turns', 'EFATO' and 'Stall recovery' would take at the least 4 hours to teach, let alone practice and that's even before getting to do circuit training. I would never release any student to go solo before they could demonstrate all these competently, AND OF COURSE, the fun bit... approach, flare and land.

[Ozgrade3]

If you are having problems with the feel of the elevators during the flare, this is what i do with problematic students.

2 stages of flap, i control the power, get the student to fly down the runway at about 1 foot above the surface, hes not allowed to touch down, nor go above 3 feet. This is done at about 60ish kts, just above the normal speed so it gives you teh correct attitude for landing, also the ground being so close you get the instant visual feedback of your adjustments to the back pressure.

Now on a landing, if you baloon, relax the back pressure to halt the climb, then re apply the back pressure to stop the subsequent sink again, which is really the 2nd flare.. Say to yourself, relax, re apply, thats about the cadence of it.

This video is a good example of it.

Pilatus PC-12 approach at Elk River Club jetport on August 20, 2010 - YouTube

[VH-XXX]

XXX SOP's say to hold of with a trickle of power and fly as close to the taxiway as possible. Saves on rubber and time especially when you own the beast and are paying the bills.

[jas24zzk]

Serious? I would have thought 'effects of controls', 'climbing and descending turns', 'EFATO' and 'Stall recovery' would take at the least 4 hours to teach, let alone practice and that's even before getting to do circuit training. I would never release any student to go solo before they could demonstrate all these competently, AND OF COURSE, the fun bit... approach, flare and land.

Very serious. And validated as true and correct.

tho i did omit a word. my First POWERED solo. That being said, the first page of my gliding log book has less that 1.5 hours in it, of which 18 mins is solo.

If you're nice, i'll scan em for you if you like

[VH-XXX]

It's not necessarily the hours behind the stick that count, you need to pick up on the stuff at the aeroclub level. The experiences, advice, stories, crap and the like. These are of just as much value as the lessons. Admittedly a B.S filter is required, however that's where the beginning of airmanship starts to take form.

[jas24zzk]

I have to agree with XXX wholeheartedly here! :ok:

When I did my GFPT, I went to a school that whilst attempting to promote a club atmosphere failed somewhat. It was more a turn up, get a briefing, go for a fly, get a quick debrief, pay your bill and leave type of place.

Where I fly now, whilst it is no longer a club as such, still has a STRONG club atmosphere. You can do the fly pay and go thing, or you can turn up early, have a chat and a relax from the drive (yer like 1.5 km for me) go do your flying, and hang around chatting afterwards. You'll meet lots of great people, learn something from almost every conversation. Get asked along for a ride with GFPT holders, offered trips somewhere with PPL holders, and you'll learn something everytime.

Even our venerable CFI learns things

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Better check, it might've fallen off already.:rolleyes:

Roger, these dicky whackers are no indication of your own flying ability.

I have seen and sent many capable pilots solo at more than 20 hours. Some may take a little longer than others, but I have often found that because they have had to work harder, they have later progressed at a better rate than others who have found the going easier and tended to kick back a bit.

Your own progess is not to be judged by how long it took you to go solo. I would tend to suggest that those blowing their own horns about how good they (think they) are, merely demonstrate they more than likely had an instructor who;

A) didn't complete the syllabus
And
B) was lucky the student didn't kill themselves through inexperience

Yes, I was a low time solo myself, but I'm not going to make a student who may already be lacking a bit of self confidence feel any worse by whacking off in public. :hmm:

[Armchairflyer]

The more important question IMHO is: after the exam, when I am allowed to take to the skies without either instructor or instructor’s permit, will it make me a worse/less skilled/unsafer pilot if I have had more dual hours before going solo?

According to all pertinent statements from competent pilots and instructors (as well as the personal experience of not-so-competent me): not in the least. Unless you have 200 hours instead of 20 without having soloed, just disregard it, the topic is really not worth more than a pissing contest.

[LocoDriver]

Over here in NZ, I have been sending first solos for many years.

When they are given to me by a C cat instructor,(Oz, grade 3) I quizz said instructor re the syllabus, etc etc, to ensure evrything has been taught as per requirements, then checking the students medical, etc etc, do the first solo check.

I make a habit of not looking at their "hours", but, do a proper check of their ability to fly safely, and make command decisions.
AFTER, the first solo, all is revealed re the hours, and I find that 10 to 15 would be an average, not many would be more than 18.
(Busy airfield)

I have sent first solo, young pilots on their 16th birthday, and some years ago, a lady of 75 (who had a 3 month medical) who had always wanted to fly solo, just once.... she was good too!

I am a CFI, and still get a buzz by sending first solos.!

I am fortunate, a good bunch of Junior instructors always seem to do a good job.
They almost always, present a student, who is ready for solo.

Cheers
:ok:

[flyinkiwi]

It doesn't matter how long it takes, just that you get there in the end.

[VH-XXX]

It doesn't matter how long it takes, just that you get there in the end.

The guy that was at our club that had 120 hours and hadn't gone solo yet would probably disagree!

He had been told many times that flying wasn't for him, but he persisted by changing schools over and over. Some people were never meant to fly!

[prospector]

Given some of the hours quoted here for first solo, obviously some people were never meant to instruct.

[metalman2]

I went solo at around 18-19(with out having my logbook in my hand at the moment and my dikc in my other hand) I could have probably gone sooner but the **** running the school dicked about with my medical and an ASIC , in the end it didn't matter , I went solo , the dikcheads school shut down and I ended up in an RAAus school with a couple of top notch FI's. Got back to PPL after a couple of years. I wonder at some of the times here though, unless you've been around aircraft or had a parent or relative who let you have a go (it does happen I'm led to believe) I really take my hat of to anyone who is totally green going solo in under ten hours, for me , the first time I'd ever been within a stones throw of a light aircraft was a TIF.
Met

[layman]

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, as PIC you have to be prepared for "anything".

Probably a long way from the worst that can happen but was at the debrief after a first solo who was 'forgotten' by ATC, until he called, and was then asked to perform a 360 ... he was on final at the time. The airport was busy and cross-runways in use - and just a bit unnerving.

Welcome to flying!

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

money grabbing technique?
Fcuk that!
I know how much I spent getting my license and knew when I was getting gouged. I refuse to engage in that sort of practise.

That being said, I will not leave myself liable to legal action by send my student solo half assed. More importantly, my student deserves to be properly prepared for what I am about to send them up to do.:ok:

wrt excessive flying, different story if the student obviously won't put in the hard yards to help themselves. You can only do so much to help them through. Had a student who was getting his PPL(A) to step through to his rotary license, but had no interest whatsoever in anything fixed wing. Daddy was paying so he didn't care how long it took. Put no effort at all.:hmm:

Aside, he the hell did this post jump ahead?

[forever flying]

An interesting concept to note is how different schools follow a set syllabus in regards to the way they train their students or whether the instructors teach by the competency of the student.

Follow a syllabus and you stretch out the time a student could go solo from 10 hours to nearly 20...money grabbing technique? :=

[Fostex]

The syllabus is like a checklist, there for a reason to make sure everything is covered,

If one sends a student solo after 3hrs ( with no prior experience ) is one really confident they can handle incipient base-final stalls and EFATO? Ninety nine times out of hundred the first solo will be uneventful. On the other one occasion someone might end up dead if they lack the necessary skills to recover.

[jas24zzk]

Roger,
Have had a read back over the comments that more directly relate to your original question.

To my mind, the fact you are asking this question in an open forum, tells me that you feel you are ready.

Take a look at the syllabus for Solo level, and ask yourself if you can fly each of those tasks safely. Review some of your flying, to my mind at your level you'd pretty much only be doing circuits now anyway. Consider where your instructor has had to help you with control inputs, or therein lack of.

A few things not really asked/answered. Are you flying with the one instructor all the time? No? Then have that changed! the hours close to first solo are very important, and continuity in instruction method/style are very important. Yes? If you feel you might be ready then tap the CFI on the shoulder and book a flight with her/him. Ask for a progress report. Force the CFI to read your notes and quizz your instructor(s) Maybe ask for the CFI's opinion before you go flying with her/him. Until you have a list of things you need to work on, your goal will remain in the distance in your mind.

Remember the standard you are required to reach for first solo, is somewhat lower than for your PPL. Its just proficiency you need to attain.
Heck make yourself known, go for a fly with someone else as an observer. Often this is enough to break a block to a student going solo when they see how other people go about the business.

Sounds like you are close dude, relax and pretend the instructor isn't there.

Trimming techniques discussed here, whilst helpfull, are things you will develope after solo anyway. Even guys with 10k hours have trouble trimming some days.

Cheers and good luck.

Jas

[Pilot.Lyons]

Try flaring at "double decker bus" height and then look at end of runway and try to keep it flying..... It will settle itself down easy enough.

12 hours to solo passed in 45hrs 10mins in 2011

[FutureFO]

Solo in 13 but I only got my ppl at 90. Honestly thought it was all easy but struggled to grasp xcountry navs I could follow the track and plan well but deviations and TE was my downfall early on.

I say practice heaps in the training area, at home at the desk simulate stalls, pfl's. I think if you are honest with yourself you'll know if you are ready.

Some instructors may wait for you to show/say that your confident & you are ready .
GL

[Centaurus]

Most experienced flying instructors will remember "memorable" students they have met in their career. That could mean very nice, but unfortunately bloody awful students. Or maybe the occasional first class students who were "naturals".

I was privileged to have flown with one of the naturals. He was a Pacific islander sent by his government to Melbourne for a flying scholarship assessment.
He was from Nauru and his love in life was fishing on Anabare Bay on the island of Nauru. His parents pushed him into applying for the scholarship and if everything worked as planned he would become a first officer on the national airline called Air Nauru. His brother was already in the airline.

From the time our Piper Warrior lifted off the runway at Essendon, you could see this young chap was a natural. Yet he had never flown before. Over the next few days we flew to Point Cook in the calm of the early morning while there were no others in the circuit. Every manoeuvre that I first demonstrated he would emulate with no significant errors. As he flew he was watching for other aircraft and reported seeing the big jets heading to Tullamarine in the distance. I didn't have to tell him to keep his eyes open for traffic-he did it naturally.

Stalling clean and dirty configurations steep turns, practice forced landings in the training area and immediately after take off, circuit joining and lots of circuits of all types. Just one demonstration by the instructor and this student could nail it every time. I felt that I had discovered a flying genius.

Go-arounds from the flare with full flap were done perfectly. Each day was perfect weather and we landed on the grass at Point Cook. Finally we lined up on grass right runway 18 (or was it 17?) and I told him to fly one circuit by himself and I got out to watch. Normally most instructors feel slightly uneasy when sending someone on a first solo and it is a relief when they get down safely. With this student I just knew he would grease the landing. After all, the dew was still on the grass and any slight crosswind would not result in the sound of sideways skidding tyres.

His solo flight was perfect and he taxied back to pick me up and we flew back to Essendon. He was a big quiet sort of bloke who said little but was a good listener. My log book showed he had gone solo in 4.2 hours and that included travel times Essendon to Point Cook and back.

At Essendon I signed his log book and said well done. Yet, I sensed it was all a boring game to him and told him I got the impression he wasn't really interested in being a pilot. He admitted as much saying he only came to Melbourne for the scholarship assessment because he wanted to keep his mum and dad happy. He preferred fishing and mixing paints as his hobby. And he missed Nauru and his mum and dad and he hoped they wouldn't be upset. He never flew again but still has his log book with his 10 minutes of solo in it.

I wrote a story about him a few years ago and I called it "The Ace of Anabare Bay". That was nearly 20 years ago and he is married and now lives in Brisbane with his wife and kids. Occasionally he has been known to fly back to Nauru to see his relatives and to throw a fishing net into Anabare Bay - just to keep his hand in you know.

[Tiger35]

I only took me two years training to go solo.

Mind you I did go solo on the first day that I was legally able to because of my age. ;)

[dhavillandpilot]

7.4 hours, I remember Stan Mobbs getting out of the C150 on a cold winter morning in 1974 with the words "don't bend it I have another student at 9"

These were the good old days at Bankstown where you could walk through Sid Marshalls hangar and look at the Me109 and the Lockheed 10 from Ansett rotting away outside.

[Metro man]

I remember "How many hours to first solo ?" being asked on one of the hundreds of job applications I've filled out over the years. Obviously they wanted to gauge basic ability.

I had about 14 hours altogether in my log book which was spread out over a period of time. It would have been a bit less had I started with a couple of weeks free time and sufficient funds in the account, arse covering was far less important in the 1980s.

Longest I remember was 83 hours to solo and 160 to PPL, determination won in the end.:ok:

[BurntheBlue]

First solo in a Glider in I cant remember how many hours, my gliding logbook is hidden away somewhere and I'm not digging it out.

We all have a favourite part to our jobs, as an instructor taking someone from zero to first solo is my buzz. My record is 5hours zero to solo. He was a special case though, the next closest sits around 7.5 but most fall between 10 and 20 hours.

There are those that have the gift and those that don't. If you're among the 95% of us that don't then it's half you, half your instructors experience and 100% determination that will get you through in a timely fashion.

"...you only go first solo once..." :ok:

[flywatcher]

It is a pissing contest. 2hrs 40 minutes, 1968

[scavenger]

now eyes on the end of the runway

and

During the hold off ensure you look towards the end of the runway - not just ahead of the aeroplane. Amazing that many instructors don't use this technique to solve the final stage of the landing.

Instructors probably don't use this technique because its wrong, unless the end of the runway is 50 - 100 m away. Consider:

You are trapped on the roof of a house that's on fire and you want to jump to the ground. Would you look 1000 m in front of you to judge when to brace your body for impact? You would, but only if you wanted two broken legs.

You would look straight down and this works because you have little or no forward speed.

On an approach in a training aeroplane, you do have forward speed - lets assume 70 KIAS. If you looked straight down to judge your height the ground would lack texture and be blurry. It is therefore inappropriate to look straight down.

But looking at the end of the runway is overkill. If you start by looking at the horizon the ground will appear to be stationary. If you draw your gaze back towards you, you will reach a point where the ground first appears to begin rushing towards you. It is just prior to this point that you want and you will find its about 50 - 100 m ahead.

Not that i put much stock in anything CASA says, but PUB 45 and its successor (Flight Instructors Manual p45) both say similar things.

I know one very experienced instructor who teaches to look about a cricket pitch in front - but then, his assessment technique sometimes revolves around whether the student is a white man, who speaks english and likes cricket...

At night, there is no texture anywhere, so the best spot to look is at the end, where the lights are. Using this technique by day is just lazy instructing.

[metalman2]

I've got a mate who can trump all in this pissing contest,,,first flight , "solo" ,,,,of course first landing was a bit of a crash,,,,second flight was also solo with a bit better landing, still flying today but does talk fondly of the good old days

[Capt Fathom]

It is a pissing contest. 2hrs 40 minutes
http://www.emotihost.com/peeing/2.gif

Lower.....:E

[Nulli Secundus]

Instructors probably don't use this technique because its wrong, unless the end of the runway is 50 - 100 m away. Consider:
You are trapped on the roof of a house that's on fire and you want to jump to the ground. Would you look 1000 m in front of you to judge when to brace your body for impact? You would, but only if you wanted two broken legs.
You would look straight down and this works because you have little or no forward speed.


At night, there is no texture anywhere, so the best spot to look is at the end, where the lights are. Using this technique by day is just lazy instructing.

Rubbish!

For a start, you're not bracing for impact. I don't get the burning house thingy either.:ugh:

The end of the runway is the ideal focal point because its clearly identifiable but more importantly means the visual cues from one's peripheral vision will facilitate depth perception - day or night.

I wouldn't count on the CASA manual as bible on all things flying.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Scavenger, are you actually an instructor?

Lazy instructing?
CRAP of the highest magnitude imo.
(Choice opinions as to where you might have gotten this information deleted)

Agree with Second to None's comments.
In addition, why the fcuk would you be landing with 100m remaining?
Go around time, Sunshine.:cool:

It doesn't necessarily have to be the end of the runway, but 50-100m is nothing (ie. not enough) in the big picture.
Looking ahead down the runway (note the wording and I am quite happy to say if it's a 700m runway, then yes, they will be looking more towards the end) tends to dampen out the student's reactions. They begin relying subconsciously on their peripheral vision to judge their height. Looking directly at the point in front of them tends to produce overcorrections resulting in a porpoising effect until they finally bang it onto the runway.

This technique is not something that is consciously carried throughout your flying. It is a way for the student to learn to smoothly flare the aircraft and when used in conjuction with another technique like the holding-off-as-long-as-possible-with-a-bit-of-power game gives the student the "feel" for landing the aircraft properly. We can describe to you exactly how to land, but I'll guarantee you won't get it exactly right on the first try. Like driving a car, it's all shiny and new and takes a lot of effort when you start, but with practise, it becomes second nature.:ok:

Been teaching it that way for many years and yet to have a student prove me wrong. I am in no way berating another instructor for using a shorter amount, but mildly pissed that you choose to describe me as lazy (albeit in generalisation) for using a technique that works. :hmm:

[Aimpoint]

Glad the two previous posters backed up my original comments.

Looking only slightly ahead means the pilot cannot see the 'whole' picture during the hold off i.e. drift, yaw, ballooning and sink.

It's not lazy instructing - in fact a technique that's worked for me over the years from sending 10 hour students solo to solving landing issues in heavier aircraft for CAR217 organisations.

Remember, I said "hold-off", not "initial flare". You'll be focusing on the aim point to judge when to start flaring (more like the jumping from a building scenario you gave), then moving your vision upwards as you commence and maintain the hold off. If you don't understand the difference between the flare and the hold-off go away and read a book about it.

A side story, my "favourite" landing technique was from one of aviation's "experts" in the NT who makes pilots look out of the side window to judge the hold off. I flew with a pilot who'd been using this technique for 12 months and his landings were inconsistent and of a poor standard - I wouldn't send him solo based on his efforts! A few circuits of looking ahead had his landings back to perfect.

[Move On]

Ohhh G_d.....:ugh:

[GCS16]

You get sent solo when the instructor knows he (or she) will still be guiding you from inside your head even when they are not in the cockpit.

A really good instructor will keep flying with you for the rest of your flying career!

[Frank Arouet]

Just do it, then let us know the results.

It takes 5 hours to get a RAA certificate even if you have 30,000 hours on heavy jets.

Just do it!

[Dashtrash]

30 hrs is certainly not excessive but it is worth looking into. At one school i worked at there were guidlines that required CFI/G1 intervention at a certain point. didn't always require a flight, just a discussion with the instructor about the students progress. Just so such things didn't balloon out.
Often a fresh set of hands will work wonders. Even though yours in a G1, doesn't mean he knows everything. Have a talk to your CFI about it. often it can be the simplest thing and then you'll nail it.
most of all.....enjoy it and always be safe.

[VH-XXX]

You can look at the end of the runway sure, but don't do it from 200ft altitude; do it when you are close to the runway to slow down the descent for a perfect landing. That way, 500 metres or 1000, it doesn't matter.

[Centaurus]

30 hrs is certainly not excessive

I'd hate to see what you think is excessive!

Just so such things didn't balloon out.

They already have by any stretch of the imagination.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

You reckon 30 is excessive?
I saw a student that was milked for over 50.
Absolutely CRIMINAL on the part of the flying school. They just kept flying him with Grade 3's. No need to actually fix his problems....:mad::hmm:

[tmpffisch]

...and if anyone is looking for a way to fall asleep tonight...

ATSB: Investigation of Visual Flight Cues for Timing the Initiation of the Landing Flare
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/32724/grant_20050119.pdf

[in-cog-nito]

Visual Flight Cues for Timing the Initiation of the Landing Flare
Keep flying towards the aim point. Don't give up on the aim point. Aim point now filling the windscreen. Wait until the instructor screams and goes for the controls.....and there's your visual flight cue for timing the initiation of the landing flare.

It's late, and I am bored.:E
In-cog

[slackie]

At an annual flying school held near Hobbiton 16 yr olds are taken from 0hrs to about 8hrs in 2 weeks... most (not all, probably 90%) go solo in that time. The differences here are probably: quality, close supervision of less experienced instructors; total immersion environment dedicated to the students; "tried and true" syllabus and lesson plans; young minds eager to learn; early intervention when issues are identified.

[sevenstrokeroll]

dear student pilot


don't worry about the time to solo. when I was instructing I taught at a 2500' strip right under the Class B airspace of San Francisco, CA, USA...we had crosswinds galore, took time to get to a practice area clear of the airliners...had to teach at least one other airport in case the home airport closed while someone was soloing in the pattern, lots of radio work , ATC, avoidance of airliners, P3 sub chasing planes from nearby Navy airfield.

IT takes longer than 4 hours due to modern inconveniences like other planes and regulations.

I had one student who flew fine, but couldn't speak english well...he got mad that he didn't solo sooner...fine...but if had an emergency, well he couldn't communicate well.


so...go out and read, "Stick and Rudder" by wolfgang langweiche and happy landings

[OZBUSDRIVER]

How do you judge 20ft to start round out? When you can make out individual blades of grass. Can still here John Young in my head. Blades of grass old boy.... Funny when you are 16:-)

[Centaurus]

I saw a student that was milked for over 50.
Absolutely CRIMINAL on the part of the flying school.

Some years ago CFI's in the Melbourne area were asked to comment on their students average to time to solo. Most agreed it was difficult to generalise because of different factors including frequency of training. 15-20 hours was near enough to average.
However it is not always instructor experience as a factor. One CFI declared vehemently he would never send a student solo until he had flown at least 20 hours of dual. He said this was because in his opinion it takes 20 hours of dual to learn "situational awareness." He owned his own flying school and was the sole instructor.

Another CFI known for his propensity to delay sending his students solo until 25-40 hours, gave a commercial reason for his caution. Years back as a young instructor he saw a first solo student tip the aircraft over on its back on landing after several nervous go-arounds. After that experience he was determined not to run the risk of that happening at his flying school. He seemed oblivious to the fact that his customers were drifting away to other flying schools after they had logged 20 hours plus dual with him and had still not gone solo. The interesting part was that both CFI's described above were well experienced and operated one man band flying schools.

[Slasher]

I was booted out of the nest after 6 1/2 hours in DH82
including spins and loops. Average was 7 for that type.

[triathlon]

8.2 hrs then sent solo.
60 hrs with ppl and NGT VFR
154 CPL.
Part time SAT/SUN 14 mnths

[Trojan1981]

13 Hours for me... just like Robert Stanford Tuck!
That said I did stop flying for a year after my first eight hours, before starting again with another school.

I know of one guy (in his sixties) who has 70-odd hours and hasn't solo'd.

[jas24zzk]

And to think RST was almost booted off his course!

:rolleyes:

[Dashtrash]

Just to clarify for the hard of understanding.....

I wouldn't consider 30hrs excessive as there are any number of reasons progress may be delayed. Long breaks between flights/ weather/issues at home or work/money shportage/chopping and changing between junior instructors/changing schools/ student confidence issues. I've seen most of'em. The point is while 30 hrs is not excessive, it is outside the normal range. So any reasons for this should be investigated. Thats's why we had those points. So things didn't balloon out because of a problem rather than circumstance. The point is it should be looked into but it's not worth an inquisition.

[prospector]

How many hours student pilot generally have when going first solo?

Well Roger, you have your answer. It is very variable, depends on many factors, natural ability only being one of them. Natural ability when coupled with other factors, such as experience and quality of instructor, how busy the aerodrome where training carried out, amount of time and money available to devote to training all contribute to the amount of time to that first solo. And there are no doubt other factors that can be influential in the time taken as well.

[roger_hujin]

It seems impossible for me to reply to each individual posts in past a few days, I never expected so many replies. I do thank everyone who has given me advices and the ones who joined this interesting pi55ing contest.

My purpose is not to really ask how many hours, I knew it varies, what I want to find is if there is a generally reasonable range which can confirm I am on track. If I do fall out of the range, that might indicate there is something wrong about this and I need to find out and fix it instead of just keeping doing it and wait. From your replies, it seems I am not far from the track though a little bit slower than normal. I do accept that and believe I probably still need a bit more practice from the click moment.

However, apart from the contest side of things and some arguments along the thread, I did learn two important points I need to improve:

1. Holding the stick with just three fingers, relax and trim more.
2. Look far to the end of the runway when flare.

I exercised these two thing last Saturday while having some up to 10kts crosswind circuits, I think it did help me, the flare is getting better and less over controls, even have a couple of pretty good landing too. So thanks to everyone.

Now need to work on a new issue, I still have quite poor directional control on landing and flare. The problem basically is I cannot line up aircraft with the runway centre line. I might be a bit to the left while flying parallel to the runway, but when I try to fix it by turning right to the centre line, most of the time it will cross it and off to the other side.

[Trojan1981]

Yes, no doubt the air force of today would miss out on a man of his talents...

[Aimpoint]

Roger - great to see you are going to take the advice next time you fly. Hopefully it all comes together shortly.

At least some posts provided good advice - unlike those who thought it was relevant or useful to boast they went solo in 3 hours...

[RonM]

Hi Roger,

I have just flown my 1st circuit solo last Monday, 21 hrs in my log book ,but medical and SPL and ASIC check held me back a few hrs. It took a while to get the trim correct , and was always chasing the plane in base and finals and by the time I got to the thresh hold I was way behind the ball as far as roundout and flaring. Then one day it all just fell into place, it even made my instructor comment on what did I do with the other Ron as this person was getting it together. My instructor told me that I had it in me as when he pattered me I would do it, so when you do everything without coaxing you know you are on your way. I started out training once per fortnight but found I was falling behind so started training once per week. I didnt let myself get caught up in thinking that if I hadnt soloed by 10-15 hrs I was no good ,as this adds pressure to something I started for fun. Everybody has a different learning curve and dont be too concerned mate. You are doing well , it will come believe me and you will be like me now being on the other side giving encouragement to another student wondering when they will solo. And as my instructor said to me as he was getting out of the plane to leave me on my own , "Main thing to remember is Have Fun !!!!"
Good Luck on your 1st Solo mate.

Cheers, Ron.

[roger_hujin]

Ron, thanks a lot for your encouragement. I am having fun too. The first solo time will come for sure, I am not worry about it any more.

[roger_hujin]

A lot thanks to you too Aimpoint. There are heaps of good advices I can learn from these replies. I am enjoying my flying time, won't be pissed off by these three hours solos..:ok:

[roger_hujin]

I have some video shot from the flight last week. I had 8 circuits that day but the whole video is about an hour. Edited and cut three base to final and then touch and go sections and make a short video (5 minutes).

I will really appreciate if you guys can watch it and point out what I did right and what I did wrong in the video

I still have some problem on directional control during flare. I am a bit confused about how to correct it when I found I am just a few meters left to the center line right at the moment to start flare. Should I use rudder to turn aircraft to intercept the center line and then turn back or I should hold aircraft aligned with center line by rudder and use aileron to side slip to the center line.

I tried to step the rudder once in the video on the second landing, it seems not the best way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a7ksIiWpM4

[ranmar850]

As others have said, don't do it before YOU feel you are ready. I was offered solo by my instructor, IIRC, 8.2 hrs. Relatively quiet aerodrome, but with lots of strong wind--Geraldton, Mid-West WA, late spring /summer. C172P. Turned her down, then went, also IIRC as my log book is not handy, over 10 hours, until the weather settled, I certainly didn't want to do it in 25-30kts SSE with a crosswind factor of around 30 degrees.
When I did, it was all go from then on. Great feeling. But there is also the factor of actual traffic. Geraldton wasn't bad, some RPT (F-50's and Dash-8's) RFDS, regular charter, private. Not common to be in the circuit with more than one other aircraft. Then I did my first dual cross-country nav, to Jandakot , while it was still doing all the training, no-one at Merriden.:eek:
Fark me, is that a circuit or a dogfight? I was coming in from the SE, into a setting sun--I remember getting instruction to join downwind from overhead, and couldn't actually see a gap.:ooh:My instructor grabbed the yoke, and neatly slotted me in , and I took it from there. Adds a whole new dimension to training, actually having to share airspace.:O

[Aimpoint]

Roger,

Very difficult to comment because we are not in the aircraft. However, my observations are:

- seem to be too fast on late final. Been a while since I've flown 172s, but looks like you're around 75-80kts on mid final when you should be closer to 65-70. Depends on what your school teaches though. Power should be controlling airspeed, need to start slowing a little sooner.
- approach profile is inconsistent. Sometimes you look very high, sometimes low.
- flaring too high
- I think you're trimming but a bit hard too see from the angle. Trim so you can take your hands off the controls and it will keep flying to the aim point (dont literally take your hands off the controls).
- use aileron to control drift off centerline, and rudder to straighten the nose. As discussed in another post, if you keep looking ahead during the hold off you will be able to control the landing well. Get yourself on centreline early on final.

I'm not sure how much direction your instructor is giving, or what your situational awareness is like, use of checklists etc. - this could be holding you back too. The instructor needs to see consistent circuits without any direction before you go solo.

Be careful using my advice or anyone else on pprune because we are not in the plane with you, nor have we been during the prior lessons. Use our suggestions in conjunction with what your school tells you.

I don't think you are very far off solo if you can sort out the above items.

[roger_hujin]

Hi Aimpoint,

Thank you so much for the comments. I knew it is a bit hard to give advice with just a video, but I do appreciate any advice from you.

I think your observation is very accurate.

- I am aware that I was too fast on final. It is around 75-80kts and reduced to 60-65 at the threshold. There were a couple of circuts after these three and I paid more attention to the airspeed on final and it was getting better. I will keep working on it next time.

- The approach profile inconsistency is also correct. I think it is because I fly base leg differently every time, so the height at the point I turn final is different, sometimes I turn a bit early, sometimes late. I think I should descend slower if the circuit is wide?

- flaring too high, I am not really sure about this one. It seems sometimes I can do it okay, I think the first landing in the video might be fine? but the second one is definitely a bit high, so I have a bit 'heavy' landing at the end.

- I did try to trim better and fly 'hands off', but definitely need more practise on it.

- the aileron to control drift off and rudder to straighten nose, if this is the answer to my question in last post, my understanding is, if I am a couple of meters left to the center line just before flare, I should strenghten the nose and use a bit right aileron to get aircraft drifting to the center line, do I understand it right?

With all the posts and advices in this thread, I am not really worry about the solo moment now. I just want to get myself ready and get those problems fixed, which can make me really be prepared for the solo.

I will take your advice and integrated with what I learned from my instructor and come to my own plan to improve, so not taking anything blindly. Thanks for the caring.

[roger_hujin]

Thanks ranmar850. I completely agree with you.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Roger H, I think you may need to find another instructor.

I am PPL with bugga all hours but you are being taught to fly a 3degree profile. You are carrying too much speed for a C172 you are waaaaay flat on your approaches, because of that speed you are throttling back a long way out to keep that profile to the flare...which is pretty good...the flare that is.

Just looking at the times on your three approaches. Either your instructor is slack or you are being taught to hold 650ft on base until you intercept the final approach. Then you are keeping 70-75kts at 300fpm all the way to the threshold???? This smells like a sausage factory...unless you want to continue ALL the way from ab-initio to a direct entry cadet into the airlines, your instructors are doing you a great disservice at your current level of training....please note...I am only PPL but thats what it looks like to me.

EDIT- Get your instructor to show you a power off glide approach...hopefully, you will see what I mean:ok:

[roger_hujin]

Then you are keeping 70-75kts at 300fpm all the way to the threshold????

I think that is my fault. I was taught to fly 5 degree slope. It should be 60-65 kts at 300fpm on final. It is my fault to fly too fast.

but I am not sure if I got your point? is it the approach too flat because the speed is too high?

[Aimpoint]

Let's not start a "3 degree profile/sausage factory/glides approaches should be the way to land" debate in this thread. It's been done in the past and won't help Roger. It's up to the school to teach the technique they think is right, no matter the 'experts' opinions on PPrune.


- the aileron to control drift off and rudder to straighten nose, if this is
the answer to my question in last post, my understanding is, if I am a couple of meters left to the center line just before flare, I should strenghten the nose and use a bit right aileron to get aircraft drifting to the center line, do I
understand it right?


Affirm. Remember though, the slower airspeed means you will need greater control inputs to get the desired result. I found a lot of students were scared of using too much aileron to counteract drift because they thought they were going to strike a wing against the runway - this is highly unlikely.



- The approach profile inconsistency is also correct. I think it is because I
fly base leg differently every time, so the height at the point I turn final is
different, sometimes I turn a bit early, sometimes late. I think I should
descend slower if the circuit is wide?


Why do you turn base at a different point each time? Is it because you have traffic in front of you, or because you're not keeping the runway in sight (or don't know when to turn base using visual cues)? Yes, if the circuit is wide you should descend on base at a lower rate of descent to avoid being too low on final.

I am aware that I was too fast on final. It is around 75-80kts and reduced to 60-65 at the threshold.

Some approaches appeared to be around 75kts over the threshold. If you are fast, the hold-off is going to take much longer and you will land too far down the runway. This is a major item that must be fixed before anyone will send you solo.

but I am not sure if I got your point? is it the approach too flat because the speed is too high?

No. The approach is 'flat' when you are too low on final i.e. the approach angle is very small, therefore 'flatter' than a steeper approach. This can be completely independent of speed.

[sevenstrokeroll]

highly unlikely to hit a wing? hardly

[Aimpoint]

Go ahead, try it in a 172 at 50kts.

I get what you're saying about low wings though.

[roger_hujin]

Thanks Aimpoint!

I found a lot of students were scared of using too much aileron to counteract drift because they thought they were going to strike a wing against the runway - this is highly unlikely.

Yes, this is also my concern on using aileron at the flare time, it seems that much of control input will make the wing drop too much. I think I can try it next time.

Why do you turn base at a different point each time? Is it because you have traffic in front of you, or because you're not keeping the runway in sight (or don't know when to turn base using visual cues)? Yes, if the circuit is wide you should descend on base at a lower rate of descent to avoid being too low on final.

Sorry Aimpoint, I think what I mentioned is I fly base leg differently, not turning to base differently. I always turn base at the same location, sometimes goes a bit wider due to traffic to follow, but I think my skills on managing the descend rate on base is still not accurate enough, so sometimes I turn final at 600ft, sometimes at 700ft, sometimes 550ft which makes the starting point of final at different height, thus the different approach profile. I think I need to work on how to fly base leg better at different conditions.

Some approaches appeared to be around 75kts over the threshold. If you are fast, the hold-off is going to take much longer and you will land too far down the runway. This is a major item that must be fixed before anyone will send you solo.

yes, totally agree with you. This is a major issue and it must be fixed. In fact, I have paid much attention to the airspeed on final in the the circuits I flew that day after these three and tried to control the speed on final at 65kts and 60kts on threshold. Make a couple of pretty good landings too. I will keep working on it and make it consistent.

No. The approach is 'flat' when you are too low on final i.e. the approach angle is very small, therefore 'flatter' than a steeper approach. This can be completely independent of speed.

This is where I got a bit confused. I know the flatter or steeper has nothing to do with the speed. I think I kind get a little bit of what it means now. I knew there is an opinion that "glides approaches should be the way to land" instead of this flatter powered approach? If I did not misunderstand what it is, as you said Aimpoint, I believe that is just different techniques, like I heard about in US they taught in that "gliding approach" way all the time. It sounds that this debate has been going on many times in the forum, so no any intention to start it again.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Roger, appols for being a bit harsh there. AND overstepped myself a bit. You are flying out of Moorabbin so I am needing a good kick. I am chastising myself for this. Appology, mate. You are hitting the right spot exactly 1nm from the runway threshold at 500ft. OK.

My advice will now seem somewhat devalued...and cannot blame you for this.

So, combination of power setting and attitude gives you a low descent rate and faster speed. From the look of this in a better light, fixing up the base leg could well mean not starting your descent until after the turn and until you get a bit closer to that exact same final turn point you are using now.

Are you starting your descent immeadiatly after turning base?

MB is notorious for wide circuits. Keeping power up to maintain height and then keeping near that power setting down final will result in that profile. Try ensuring you are at 1500rpm at that same final position should result in the correct profile and a lower speed. If you want, you could fly a C152 at the same approach speed as a B200 and still follow the same profile as you would as if you were at full flap and 60kts...it is that sight picture that remains the same.

After digging myself a huge hole, I shall now try and bury myself:ugh: Appologies once again...looking at your flare, you do not have far to go...just adjust your descent on base so you keep a more even profile...but you certainly appear safe...just cannot hear what your instructor is saying...if he is quiet or less talkative than previous flights you are knocking on the door...keep it safe:ok:

[jas24zzk]

Yep,
totally agree that nothing you are doing looks unsafe. You can't be too far off.

Speed control on final appears to be your biggest issue. Get that sorted and your approaches will follow suit.

You mentioned in one post about targetting 300 fpm descent on final. That's a new one for me. Your aim point and airspeed are the most important items when on final.


5 mile circuits at MB.... eeek. Almost standard procedure there due to some of the sausage factories.
There are ways to deal with it. The simplest is just slow down on downwind. Select 2200 rpm and let the guy flying the 5er get ahead of you, even if you are flying inside him. By slowing down that little bit, you'll be able to fly your 3miler and remain behind him. You'll be surprised how far behind him you will get on one circuit alone, but you'll undo that with a 75 knot final.


You mentioned trimming is still a bit of an issue. Read back what several of us said about that, then look at the video and your left hand. :}

Thanks for having the nads to put your video's up. Was quite enjoyable viewing. (sincere, not sarcasm here) :D

Cheers
Jas

[Memphis_bell]

8.8 in 2009

[Aimpoint]

You mentioned in one post about targetting 300 fpm descent on final. That's a new one for me. Your aim point and airspeed are the most important items when on final.


Jas is right - in 14 years of flying I've never targetting a certain descent rate during a visual approach to landing (an instrument approach is a bit different - but you'll get to that later). Get your aim point right and control the airspeed with power. There are too many variables to worry about a target rate of descent.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Airspeed with power? How do you recover from too low too slow?

[RadioSaigon]

Yes power controls airspeed...

hmmm... I was always taught -and have always practiced- power controls profile, pitch controls speed. Must have had it arse-about all these years...

[Aimpoint]

They're interrelated, all back to the original formula "power + attitude = performance".

The most common technique these days is to use attitude to control the aim point (therefore profile) and power to control the airspeed.


Airspeed with power? How do you recover from too low too slow?


I would be increasing the power and stopping/reducing the descent but making a slight pitch up attitude adjustment. What would you do? We're going to do the same thing no matter what theory we subscribe to.

[roger_hujin]

Hey OzBusDriver, there is nothing to apologies about at all. I knew you were trying to help me so thank you for your advices. You are not on that airplane and it is very difficult to make any comments out of just this video shot, and I did not mention it is YMMB, so that is completely all right and I really appreciate your help.

Are you starting your descent immeadiatly after turning base?

I think in these three laps, I started descending during the base turn. I reduced the power on later downwind and do a descending turn to base. When sometimes goes wide or sometimes goes narrow, I was not managing the descend rate on base very well, still need more practise and experience on this.

it is that sight picture that remains the same.

Yes, completely understand this. I did have a couple of circuits that day which I managed speed on final a little bit better, maybe I can edit another piece of vide and post here.

looking at your flare, you do not have far to go...

Thansk a lot for the encourgement.

just adjust your descent on base so you keep a more even profile...but you certainly appear safe...just cannot hear what your instructor is saying...if he is quiet or less talkative than previous flights you are knocking on the door...keep it safe

Instructor did not talk as much as before, so I am making some progress! Thanks for the help.

[roger_hujin]

Hi Jas,

Thanks for your comments. I have start workign on my speed control issue on final so it will be fixed shortly I believe.

You mentioned in one post about targetting 300 fpm descent on final. That's a new one for me. Your aim point and airspeed are the most important items when on final.

I am sorry for the confusion, this 300fpm thing (actually 5 times ground speed, so 60kts make 300fpm) is just a rule of thumb my instructor taught me, I completely understand aiming point and speed are things I should pay attention to on visual approach, never tried or think about targetting a descend rate. It might be used as another source to confirm the profile, but never targetting on it.

There are ways to deal with it. The simplest is just slow down on downwind. Select 2200 rpm and let the guy flying the 5er get ahead of you, even if you are flying inside him. By slowing down that little bit, you'll be able to fly your 3miler and remain behind him.

Wow, never think about I can do this, what should I tell the tower when he tell me to follow a warrior on a wide circuit?

You mentioned trimming is still a bit of an issue. Read back what several of us said about that, then look at the video and your left hand.

Yes, that is what I am doing and there a heaps of great advices from your guys.

Thanks for having the nads to put your video's up. Was quite enjoyable viewing. (sincere, not sarcasm here)

Great to know it is a 'enjoyable viewing', not a horrified one. :ok: Thanks for your good comments.

[roger_hujin]

Jas is right - in 14 years of flying I've never targetting a certain descent rate during a visual approach to landing (an instrument approach is a bit different - but you'll get to that later). Get your aim point right and control the airspeed with power. There are too many variables to worry about a target rate of descent.

Hi Aimpoint,

I am really sorry for the confusion, this 300fpm thing (actually 5 times ground speed, so 60kts make 300fpm) is just a rule of thumb my instructor taught me, I completely understand aiming point and speed are things I should pay attention to on visual approach, never tried or think about targetting a descend rate. It might be used as another source to confirm the profile, but never targetting on it.

thanks for your comments though.

[roger_hujin]

Having a look at your rate of descent on final is a secondary way of assessing your profile, i.e 5 times ground speed equals 3deg or 5% profile. Convenient especially at night when its always reassuring to be extra sure of perspective and profile because of obstacle clearance considerations.

Coming up to your first solo i wouldn't worry about that stuff. Yes power controls airspeed and use attitude to maintain your aiming point at a fixed position in your windshield hence maintaining profile.
What is important is that you coordinate the two i.e your attitude and your power, and understand the secondary effects of both. Left hand forward, lower the nose, airspeed increases, reduce power and vice versa.

It is that coordination that is important coupled with your rudder / aileron work to control the centre line which is the essential element of a stable approach.

If your approach is stable in terms of centreline, airspeed and profile, the flare should be easy, just reduce the power to iddle over the threshold and progressively gently apply backpressure to a straight and level attitude until the main wheels touch the ground.

Crosswind techniques are add on skills that come later.

I suggest you start listening to your instructor instead of going on here and ask every expert for his opinion.

Hi blacklabel,

Thank you for the comments, but I am afraid that is not what I am asking here. What you said are absolutely correct, they are exact what is printed on the text book and I have read them hundreds of time and completely understand it (believe me, I am a chinese and very good on reading textbooks), but it is not the answer I am seeking here.

What I am asking here is about how to do it, not what to do. I knew what to do but flying is a technique which can only be mastered by practising. So I posted the video and hope the experts here can point out what I did correct and what I did wrong so I can keep on the good one and fix the bad ones. I also asked questions which has not been talked about on the text book like if I am a couple of meters left to the center line and just about to flare, what should I do.

I got heaps of good advices from these guys, some tips like holding stick with three fingers etc, they are all small things, but they are the ones which will help me to achieve what is described on text book and I think that is the reason why we cannot learn fly just by reading the book.

Also, I would like say I have been listening to my instructor very carefully since I started my training, otherwise, I might not get this far. However I do not see it will do any harm to ask more advices here from those experts about their opinion, they give me a different perspective and with their experience they might be able to point out the problem both myself and my instructor not noticed.

Cheers,
Roger

[Keg]

(actually 5 times ground speed, so 60kts make 300fpm)

That makes it about a 3 degree glide slope and whilst it's been a long time since I've flown a 172, that strikes me as being too shallow. Actually, now I think of it, it's probably a bit shallower than 3 degrees. In airliners we use half your ground speed plus 50'. So 120 knots ground speed down final gives a V/S of 650'/min. I won't comment beyond that as I'm not current on lighties.

You made a comment on the last page about how to get back to centreline if you're adrift coming into the flare. It's too late at that stage to worry too much about trying to get back to the centreline prior to touchdown. Sure, you don't want to drift too far downwind so a go around is the right solution if that occurs or get it on the ground a bit more quickly. If at the flare you're off the centreline then as long as you're not drifting downwind at a great rate you need to accept that and live with it. Get back on the centre line once you're on the ground.

I have one other bit of advice. There has been some excellent comment and advice from many contributors here. However you're reaching the point where it's all piling on top of each other and I get the impression you're trying to encompass all the feedback into your flying when the reality is you may not yet have the mental processing ability (when flying) of actually doing all that. If there is one bit of advice it would be to KISS. Take it right back to basics on what you need to achieve. Sometimes, listening to too much advice just crowds out the basics.

Good luck and remember to enjoy it. It's not supposed to be hard work- even when it is!

[training wheels]

Thanks for the videos Roger . .brings back some fond memories of flying at YMMB. I soloed there many years ago using runway 17L in a C152 after about 14 hours. From the videos, I say you're not far off from being sent solo. The approach appears stable and the flare height, from what I can see from the video appears about right. The fact that you're getting the stall warning horn just before touch would suggest that your speed is ok as well. By the way, what's that beeping noise on short final? Autopilot disengage perhaps? hahaha

As for keeping on the centerline, yes, you will need to use rudder for directional control. I do all my flying in the right seat these days so my technique would mirror yours on the left, but basically, what I do is to 'step' on the centreline with the inside of my right foot using the centreline as a reference point. I try to 'feel' the centreline run up the inside of my foot, all the way in to my groin during the approach. So for you, sitting on the left, you would do this with the inside of your left foot. If you have this reference point to aim for, for centreline guidance from early final, it will make it much easier to end up on the centreline at short final and during the flare.

This is just a suggestion which you can take or leave, but I have been a flight instructor before with about 900 hours instructional time and this is the technique I teach to my students who have trouble maintaining runway centreline.

All the best with your training, and when you do solo, please upload the video of your celebrations. I'm not sure what the tradition is for your flight school for solo celebrations .. some places throw a bucket of cold water over you, so watch out ... :E

[roger_hujin]

Thanks a lot Keg.

I do not worry too much about the V/s thing. The runway perspective is the major reference for glide slop, I do understand it. I never tried to reference or target the V/S. so I think if it looks not shallow, it is not shallow.

Also thank you for the answer for the centerline. In the video I posted, I do tried once to turn back to the center line with rudder right before flare, it looks not that good.

Your reminder of taking it back to basic is also great. I think that is the way I am thinking. I am not trying to pile myself up with the tricks and tips and hope it can solve my problem. I am trying to dig out what I did right and what I did wrong on basic flying technique by reading your experts observations. Then I can fix the basics. What I got so far is I am still not relax enough so overcontrol sometimes happens, not trimmed to the best, and also need to fly base leg better in terms of managing descend rater. Then combined with just a few tips, I believe that will make me a better pilot.

Thanks a lot for your kind comments and I do enjoy this "hard work".

[roger_hujin]

Hi training wheels,

Thanks! I think that is a great reference for the center line. I am using the center line at the right angle with the horizon as a visual cue to confirm I am on center line, I will try your trick next time.

Also I will watch that bucket of cold water, it is winter now...:\.. hope they won't just pour it into the cockpit..

[andrewr]

As others have said, the most important item is airspeed. Too fast will cause many problems:


Over controlling is more likely (particularly in pitch) as the controls are more sensitive
Everything happens faster
You have too much energy (speed) going into the flare, which means that ballooning is more likely and will be worse, e.g. at 75 knots too much back pressure might take you back up to 10 feet when at 65 knots it might have been 2 feet.
If you are trimmed for 75 knots instead of 65 you will need more back pressure for the flare, making fine control more difficult.
You spend more time in the flare waiting for the speed to bleed off, which amplifies the effect of any gust, error etc.
You are more likely to land nosewheel first due to the flatter approach attitude and extra back pressure required in the flare.

On final, you need to set the speed first, then fine tune the aim point. Changing speed will change the aim point anyway.

If you are being taught 60-65 knots on final that is good - from memory that is about right. I would suggest you aim to be stable at 65 knots by 300 feet. The earlier you slow down the easier it will be.

I would suggest:

After turning final, set power and flaps and use back pressure to slow the aircraft to 65 knots, then trim off most of the pressure. As the aircraft slows you might look like you are overshooting, but that is OK - you fine tune that after the speed is stable.

Once you have the speed at 60-65 knots, adjust power to keep the aim point stationary in the windscreen. As you change power forward or back pressure may be required to keep the speed stable (quite likely forward pressure when increasing power, back pressure when reducing it). Trim off any constant pressure.

The aim is to set up a stable descent ending at the runway, so that the aircraft almost goes there by itself, rather than needing to "drive" it to the runway.

The exact height you turn final is not so important - the final approach will be influenced as much by wind anyway. Of course consistency is better but 550-700 feet sounds OK especially if you have a long final approach, as I suspect is the case at Moorabbin.

Again, the key is to be at the right speed, and build everything else on that.

As for the centreline, once you are in the flare the aim is obviously to touch down travelling parallel to it, but it is too late to make major adjustments left or right. Aim for the centreline through the approach, and if you are far enough away from it at flare height that you are in danger of running off the runway go around.

In the flare use the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the runway (the same as you do taking off) and aileron to stop drift left or right and keep the aircraft travelling parallel to the centreline.

Hope this helps.

[A37575]

Having a look at your rate of descent on final is a secondary way of assessing your profile, i.e 5 times ground speed equals 3deg or 5% profile
A Cessna 172 is not an airliner and should not be flown like one, although there are flying schools that treat the 172 as an airline type aircraft. With nil wind and 60-65 knot approach speed at around 1200 to 1500 rpm powered approach with full flap, the angle of approach in a 172 or similar light training aircraft is more like 5-6 degrees - not three degrees as on a typical ILS or PAPI angle.

The C172 is certified to approach power on or power off (idle RPM) for the same approach speed published in the manufacturers POH. A powered off approach (meaning glide approach) with full flap, is around seven degrees slope. To teach a stable three degree approach in the 172 with full flap and 60 knots requires around 2000 RPM which is equivalent to low cruise power and plainly inappropriate.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Blacklabel, if you fly with a glide slope beam all the time then just keep on pointing the thing. That's not flying!

[Seagull V]

Roger Hugin
You certainly have got a lot of value out of this post. Maybe you should write a book on landing techniques from the responses. You have probably by now received too much advice, but having sent my fair share of first solos I thought I would add a few pointers.

Can you see out? Many pilots do not sit high enough. Use the seat vertical adjustment and don’t be too proud to use a cushion if necessary.

Can you see the same thing each time you fly? Don’t accept the previous pilot’s seat vertical position.

Can you see? I have come across a few trainees who had the wrong glasses for flying or wore non prescription shades.

Can you recognise the touchdown attitude? Try sitting in the cockpit, with engine off,and have somebody (your instructor) weigh the tail down until:
1. The nose wheel is just off the ground.
2. The aircraft is in the touch down attitude.
3. The tail skid is on the ground. This last one is to show you that you are unlikely to ever cause a tail scrape.

Fly a consistent stable approach. You won’t make a consistent landing if each approach is different and similarly you won’t make a consistent approach if each circuit is different. Truly the landing commences on downwind leg.

Have the approach stabilised (On glide path, on speed, landing flap set, trimmed) by say three hundred feet on final.

Trim is your friend, but remember you are trimming to “relieve sustained control loads”. I have come across instructors who teach students to trim out transient control loads, such as those resulting from even the slightest turbulence, with the result that the students are always trimming.

Too many pilots are taught to approach too fast, resulting in a prolonged hold off and ballooning. The recognised approach is 1.3 times the power off stall speed. The airspeeds for a fully laden aircraft are shown as the low end of the colour arcs on the ASI and are listed in the POH.

Ask your instructor to give you more stalling practice, and while you are at altitude practice slow flight. You will be very surprised just how slow you can make it fly.

Ask your instructor to give you practice in low flying along the runway. Motor along at hold off height with just enough power to prevent touch down. At first you will over control, but you’ll soon get the hang of it.

Try to pick your weather. Try early am or late pm to avoid convective turbulence.

Try to fly twice on the one day sometimes. Two shorter periods might be better than one longer one.

A First Solo is a confidence trick. Both the student and the Instructor must both have confidence in the student’s ability to safely make the solo flight. As an instructor I look to see that the trainee can recognise when the landing is going wrong and make the decision to abort the approach and execute a go round rather than having the ability to pull off a greaser everytime.

Remember that landings are optional. If it’s going wrong Go Round. Don't try to sort it out just Go Round. If you do decide to go round and your instructor then takes over and sorts it out every time, shame on him/her. After all it’s you who is learning to fly.

Good luck.
Seagull V

[Tee Emm]

If it’s going wrong Go Round. Don't try to sort it out just Go Round
Before a student is ready for first solo he should have been trained how to recover and land ahead from a bounced landing and from a high-hold. Providing he is confident and competent to recover from both situations, which are common on some first solo's, then a go-around is less likely to be needed. . Don't be mistaken, A go-around on the stall warning with full flap from a bounce or high hold off is a tricky manoeuvre and it is all too easy to stall with full power still applied.

The blanket advice high-lighted above sounds like a good idea to cover all eventualities but may require very careful handling especially as the student will be naturally tensed up being his first solo. Most botched landings in training aircraft are easily salvageable simply by combining slight change of attitude with a trickle of power to re-land straight ahead on the remaining length of field. A go-around is not always necessary nor desirable.

[roger_hujin]

First soloed on last Saturday, 2 June 2012.

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice in this thread and also my great thanks to my instructor!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Congrats...See! It's not that hard:ok:

[Aimpoint]

Well done Roger!:ok:

[RonM]

Congrats Roger,well done mate:ok:

[Wally Mk2]

Welcome to the 'club' Roger,you may however regret that you even stepped aboard a plane to fly it. Two wives latter it all might come back to haunt you;-):E

.......but for now,enjoy the ride, there's nufin' like it !:ok:


Wmk2

[jas24zzk]

Well done Roger!


you owe each and everyone of us a slab! :E


See the pundits around here were right...you were worried about nothing :P

[training wheels]

Great to hear .. congrats Roger on logging your first PIC entry in your logbook. May there be many more hours in that column of your logbook in the future!

[flyinkiwi]

Congratulations Roger! Please tell us about how it went.

[roger_hujin]

Thanks everyone. It is really a big day for me as I believe I have stepped over the first milestone of my aviation experience, it will continue further and further I am sure.

It was a calm day Saturday, we got a CAVOK too, but it was the busiest day I have ever seen in YMMB in all my circuit training. I never expected I will have my solo that day. Flew with the instructor first, there were about 4 or 5 planes in the circuits already when we prepared to depart. We had four circuits and my instructor told me to have a full stop, I thought immediately that it might be the time finally comes.

Landed and parked the airplane, we went back to the school and my instructor told me I will have my first solo then but we still need to do a little bit paperwork (forgot to sign-in in the first flight) and brief me a bit.

20 minutes later we went back to the apron. I was wondering why I was in such a surprisingly calm and not exciting. It feels just like I will just fly another circuit as the four I just did. Unfortunately, my feeling was proved wrong later on.

I dipped the tank, hopped in, taxi for runup and finally took off from 35R. The airplane did feel much lighter as my instructor briefed me before. It soon reached 1000ft even before I finished the turn to crosswind. I had to lower the nose while turning. As a side note, the DG was broken too, so solely rely on ground reference point. I intentionally flew the crosswind a few more seconds to get to the right spot to turn downwind.

what interesting happened from my downwind call, nothing is what I expected in my first solo, but it does put the circuit training I had in a very good test.

Reported turning downwind for full stop, tower advise I need to widen the circuit to follow a lancer approaching parkmore to come in before me. Without the lance in sight, I reported I am turning left a bit to widen my circuit but haven't seen that traffic.

While searching for the traffic I need to follow and flying a downwind wider than I usually do, tower called again to ask me if I see the lance from parkmore. I did not, but I saw a traffic at my 12 oclock. Report that and tower ask me to change plan to follow the one in front of me, which is a cherokee joining base from parkmore. In all my circuit training, I never was told to follow any airplane out of the circuit, not mention the change plan sort of thing, so this is the first time I see this complex situation, and unfortunately, I have to deal with it myself in my first solo.

To make space with the cherokee, I flew a long downwind and an unusual long base, which are all deviated from the circuit I just did or even the circuits I ever flew. At this time, I think my efforts on 10+ hours of circuit training finally paid off. I did not have any difficulty on flying the airplane while much of my brain power was on looking for traffic, talking to tower and thinking about how to deal with the situation, where to turn etc. I barely remembered I looked at the altimeter, but from the video I shoot, it seems I maintained the altitude no problem and the base descending are all good in terms of speed and profile.

In the middle base, lost track of the cherokee, so decided to ask the tower again if I am the no.1 now. They said he is on short final and I then caught him in sight. It seems I did not do anything wrong, so I turned final at exactly 600ft.

The final leg was flew carefully as it is flatter than usual because I was a bit far from the field, keep it at 65kts, and stabilised, it looked all good to me, time to flare and damn, floating up. I flared in my usual way, but the plane is lighter, so I pulled too quickly and floating up. Fixed it by releasing the back pressure a bit and flared again, the second time is fine, no bouncing and not a hard landing, but not on the centre line any more.

Right after my landing and I was still trying to recover from what I have been through, tower advise me to exit from 31L. I never heard this kind of instruction before and remembered we cannot use runway to exit, so puzzled on what I heard for a couple seconds, so asked them to say again, but while they say again, I had rolled past 31L. Trying to make it by stepping a bit brake but soon give up as it looked too dangerous for me to make it. Then heard in radio that the guy behind me was told to go around. It sounded he was very close to me indeed.

Taxied back to the apron and jumped off, my instructor was waiting for me. Shutting down and jumped off and I have finally completed my first solo.

In this first solo flight, what I learned from those many hours circuit training was put into a test. I did not realize at all before this solo flight that how much I have improved from those hours of training, but it does show me clearly that I am capable of flying semi-automatically and using my brain power to plan ahead and deal with the situation around me. If there were not that much training I had, it will be definitely a mess when I still need to concentrate on flying the airplane, and then fail to deal with the situation and falls behind the progress and screw up.

However, it also revealed my weakness, situational awareness is still a weak point of me. I will start working on this point while keep improving my flying techniques too.

Especially thanks to my instructor Charles, he is leaving the school for a great job in north, but he guided me with his knowledge and experience in past a few months, prepared me well with his high standard of proficiency, I will not be able to make it without him. It is a great fun to fly with you and all the best to you Charles!


Here is the video I shot from cockpit. Any comments are welcomed. :ok:

First Solo Circuit - YouTube

[in-cog-nito]

Congrats Roger.:D
You are very lucky! Most of us old hands don't even have video of our first solo to remind us of that memorable day and how far we have come since.

Did the Tower know you were a first solo? I remember the tower guys and gals liked to know this so they don't try and request you to do something you might not be ready for.

Charles is a big unit, so there's no surpise about the ballooning (sorry Charles, hehehe!). That and the cool day, 1020 something QNH combination. The 1/2 rho in the lift formula bites again!

Centreline will come with pactice, confidence and discipline.

Now comes the second solo. Don't be too concerned if you fly like a complete chook and don't solo next time. This happens more than you think.

Good luck mate and all the best with the next one.
In-cog

[mcgrath50]

I found landings were a thing of practice, just keep doing them. Slowly you will do less and less bad ones and you will get closer and closer to the centreline. One day you will suddenly realise you haven't ballooned in a while and realised you've improved.

Be careful though, usually the next flight after this realisation I will :mad: it!