Prince William and the RAF

[Samuel]

Just as a matter of interest given William has apparently got to make a choice on his future, just what is the usual progression from Pilot Officer to Sqn Ldr these days? Is there still a staff course component for promotion from Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr?

[Donna K Babbs]

They might just make an exception in his case.

[alisoncc]

It's not what you know, it's who you know. As he seems to have all the right connections then he will probably go straight to Air rank skipping more than a few. In truth think he's one of the good guys, but family is family and you have to look after your own. :ok:

[phil9560]

Just leave the boy alone.He's making a good fist of the hand he's been dealt.

[sisemen]

Cheap shot alison. And don't forget that, as a currently serving member, he's probably on here reading (and maybe contributing) so remember "do as you would be done by".

And I second Phil's comment: he'll do fine on his own abilities.

[P6 Driver]

How many times does this anti-prince sniping have to return to these forums?

Both William and Harry are, from what I can see, doing a decent job of work for their country - which is more than could possibly be said of some.

Some people have a higher standing in society than others. Some are elected and some are born into it through no fault of their own. Try to get over it before it consumes your everyday thoughts and you develop a chip on both shoulders.

:rolleyes:

[Whenurhappy]

Again, I echo the above comments. PPruners generally don't discuss serving military personnel and I think that the Princes should be no exception. It is clear that both of them got to their current appointments through a combination of aptitude and hard work and it is also clear that they both try 'to do the Right thing'. So we may see Prince William at Swindon Poly (sorry, Defence Academy) to do the ICSC or what ever it's called now. But if I had had family connections, I would have exploited them to avoid the course!

[pohm1]

Both William and Harry are, from what I can see, doing a decent job of work for their country - which is more than could possibly be said of some.

Exactly. Now, hands up, who'd change places with either of them? (excluding the obvious perk of coming home to Duchess Katherine, of course.;))

They both have a lifetime of service to their country ahead of them, whether they like it or not, most of us have/had a choice as to when we pull/pulled the pin.

P1

[Samuel]

How many times does this anti-prince sniping have to return to these forums?

I initiated this with a simple question, and there is no "sniping", and certainly not from me!I happen to think he does a good job, and is a breath of fresh air.

[Pontius Navigator]

Samuel, people obviously don't know who you are or where you are.

Around 1975 the RAF abandoned the last of its promotion exams. Promotion to fg off had been automatic for many years. In the late 60s the B for promotion to flt lt was abolished along with the permanent fg off (B-failed). Then the C was also abandoned to be replaced, for aircrew, with satisfactory flying proficient reports every year. Our old nav plotter actually failed his check as a sqn ldr flt cdr and immediately lost his flying cat. He later remustered to a ground branch. I don't know how ground officers were assessed.

Typically a flt lt will be in the bracket for promotion after 4 years in the rank with 5 the most usual. For aircrew this would be towards the end of his 2nd or 3rd flying tour depending on whether he was a graduate or direct entry.

He would be expected to do a junior staff course and also to embark on an individual staff studies course. To be an effective sqn ldr you do need to do courses. Promotion to wg cdr would follow perhaps 4-5 years later for a fast mover.

Once a Royal personnage had left active service promotion would follow at the normal promotion points until as King you top out at MRAF.

[Samuel]

Thank you PN, for a rational response! :D My opening post was mere curiosity and not about William per se!

[NutLoose]

I personally think they are doing a good job and good on them, it will be giving them a grounding in life they will not get elsewhere and is probably the only time in their lives they will get a sense of "Normality", if that is what you can call it.

If only all MP's were required to spend time in the workplace before entering their chosen professions, the Country would be a better place than it is today.

[Al R]

I read a piece in a broadsheet about Charles wanting promotion to Group Captain in the late 80s. The RAF agreed, but only after the first of his Cranwell contemporaries achieved the rank through merit.

.. not sure how true (to convention?) that is.

[Union Jack]

The RAF agreed, but only after the first of his Cranwell contemporaries achieved the rank through merit.

Sounds about right, Al R - this parallels what the Royal Navy did, promoting the Prince of Wales more or less in time with the same officer who was carefully put in command of another MCMV in the same squadron as BRONINGTON,as the latter progressed up the Navy List to Rear Admiral. When I say "carefully", they chose the other guy very carefully indeed, not least by choosing someone junior to Charles as a Lieutenant so that they could say that Charles had not had preferential treatment by being given undue early command ......:ok:

Jack

[Al R]

:cool:.

I'm not a sycophantic cap doffing lick-spittle, but William and Harry have turned into a couple of men we should be proud of. Harry's speech last night in the US shows a degree of sensitivity, empathy and maturity that you'd be hard pressed to find in a half full Members bar on any given night in Westminster.

[Exascot]

The suitability of ones wife always used to be an important factor when assessed for promotion. I don't think there is a problem there :ok:

P.Nav please do not bring up the subject of ISS before I have had at least a breakfast beer. The AOC once asked me how I had managed to get promoted without even starting this ridiculous time consuming course (not his words). I asked him if he wanted the truth. He replied in the affirmative. I explained that it just required a tick to be placed in the correct box on my flight commander's 'chaps qualifications' board on his office wall. :) I forget the reply.

[Whenurhappy]

Samuel, Beagle et al,

Perhaps I am one of the last serving officers still with B and C exam qualifications - still duly filled out on the front of my OJAR (F1369 in old money). I completed both in 1986 in the RNZAF and they were recognised when I subsequently trasnferred to the RAF in the 1990s.

The B Exams consisted of 2 general papers (Air Force Law and General Service Knowledge) - each about 3 hours long, if I recall correctly. Then there were special to branch papers: aircrew had to do an Airmanship paper, an Air Operations paper (drawn from the archaic but strangely prophetic AP1300) and a Nav/Pilot/Eng/ALM...paper. Ground Branches completed an additional Branch-specific paper. The knack in passing all the papers was to sit them immediately after completing officer training (for the general papers) and then immediately after your professional training for the Branch-specific papers.

The C Exam was renamed the International Affairs paper and involved attending a week-long series of seminars and lectures on...international affairs, follwoed by the exam. It was a subtley renamed PI$$EX for Flt Lts. From mid 1985 onwards, if you completed the 19 week IOT, the C exam was accredited as the IOTC included quite a bit on IA.

Even in my time there were Fg Offs who were unable to progress to Flt Lt becasue they had dropped papers and there were several elderly Flt Lts that I can recall who refused to sit the C Paper.

Bring them back, I say!

PS: Remember the Filofax thingy introduced by Sir Peter Harding that required you to get Akala's signature on as a junior officer?

[foldingwings]

ISS has gone!

I believe the way it works these days is that a JO has to complete JOCC1 (Junior Officer Command Course) followed by JOCC2 - both held residential at Shrivenham. Then, as a Sqn Ldr, the ICSC (Intermediate Command and Staff Course), followed by A(dvanced)CSC (year long and encompassing an MA in Military Studies) - residential at Shrivenham. Most ground branches do ACSC as Wg Cdrs whereas aircrew tend to complete the course as Sqn Ldrs gaining promotion at the end of the course. Higher Command and Staff Course (HCSC) follows for those destined for very high rank - residential at Shrivenham.

The RAF also now runs 'through-life' air power doctrine training for all ranks which, for officers, commences at Initial Officer Training with the Basic Air Warfare Course (BAWC) and, for all those selected for promotion to Wg Cdr, the Higher Air Warfare Course whether they have completed ACSC or not! These 2 courses are 'trigger points' a) for commissioning and b) for promotion to Wg Cdr.

Information accurate to 2007 when I retired but updated by a daughter now serving.

Hopefully that helps.

Foldie:ok:

[Basil]

Never forget the satisfyingly disapproving look on my flight commander's face when the 'B' was abolished and Flt.Lt. Bas appeared down at the Sqn. :}

I'm pro the gentlemen under discussion and my only anxiety is that their royal duties permit sufficient professional immersion and exposure to keep truly current, safe and effective.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fg Off Bas, there was still a slot on the 1369 for 'not yet fit'. It was a catchall to avoid the Redress of Grievance charge if you put 'Unfit'.

Many fg off were dischuffed that they had moved up the career ladder and became eligible for SDO and other flt lt duties such as courts marshal. They had much rather been professional aircrew exempt niff-naff and trivia.

[alisoncc]

I wrote: In truth think he's one of the good guysWhich was followed by
Cheap shot alisonI don't see what was cheap about stating the obvious. He is destined for the very top, and may well he deserve it. Sometimes people just go looking for the negatives in a posting.

[Basil]

there was still a slot on the 1369 for 'not yet fit'
One can only surmise that, without the foreknowledge that the 'B' exam was going to be abolished, they'd omitted to write that on mine :)

[Less Hair]

Looking at it from the outside: It is so valuable to have the top guys get inside knowledge about the armed forces. Those backgrounds will enable them to decide future stuff in your favour as they will know the other side as well.

They could just hang around parties all day long but prefer to seriously work. Telling you from a republic's perspective: A monarchy gives more to you than it takes.

[melmothtw]

Looking at it from the outside: It is so valuable to have the top guys get inside knowledge about the armed forces. Those backgrounds will enable them to decide future stuff in your favour as they will know the other side as well.
Quite agree, with those "at the top" serving and deciding stuff in our favour Britain's armed forces would never be subject to cuts such as those announced in the SDSR...oh wait.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

PN,

'courts martial' :O

Unless, of course, you meant a 'court martial mashal';)

Duncs:ok:

[sisemen]

this ridiculous time consuming course

Yeh I agree there aint no point in doin niff naff ‘n trivia when you is an oficer aircrue I mean whens you gonna of to write stuff when you poling yor airplane in the skies and bomming things in any case oficers get all the respek they needs wiv the uniform ‘n all they dont needs to be able to write that poncy service riting ‘n stuff just leev us alone to get on wiv the real air force and leave all that poncy stuff to blunties in any case i can catch up when i is a wing commander or an air marshall ‘n stuff 'n have to do cort marshals 'n uvver boring things.

[Fareastdriver]

You tell them; siseman.

[Exascot]

Your Royal Highness, if you are following this, I do apologise for the thread drift. I am sure that if I had completed the ISS course when I had the privilege of flying ‘The Firm’ I could have ‘crossed’ the threshold and ‘dotted’ the centreline a little more competently. I felt that concentrating on my MBA studies was beneficial than struggling with service writing. I had a secretary who put my notes into the correct form.

Despite this, I have just published book about getting ‘Out of the Rat Race’. My editor said it was more like a military report than a book and had to practically re-write it. So obviously something rubbed off.

I have the honour to be, etc, etc…

Exascot

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was at uni later in life one of my tutors told me it was evident I had been in the services, as my essays were always to the point and devoid of unnecessary verbiage. The "cut out the c**p" style of service writing had obviously stuck, and unlike Exascot's editor, my tutors generally approved of it.

[sisemen]

I have just published book

Well, that wouldn't have got past the 11 plus, never mind ISS or your publisher!

Let's be generous - mind moving faster than your fingers over the keyboard. :}

Was this your personal weapon by any chance Exascot?

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/0/2/4/9/6/3/3/Backfire-guns-24751043437.jpeg

[teeteringhead]

And isn't Exascot advertising in contravention of Pprune Ts & Cs ?? ;)

[Exascot]

And isn't Exascot advertising in contravention of Pprune Ts & Cs ??

No, I didn't put the title and if you look in Amazon there isn't a single author named 'Exascot'.

I was never very good with shooters Sisemen (ask the range Sgt!) I take my shots from this:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/Gin.jpg

[teeteringhead]

No, I didn't put the title and if you look in Amazon I have just published book about getting ‘Out of the Rat Race’.

1. Not exactly rocket science to find it in aforesaid well-known South American river! (and they are temporarily out of stock! Best speak to your publisher ...)

2. ;) denotes banter - the most important weapon the helicopter force possesses!

3. Apologies for thread drift YRH (if reading) [more ;)]

[EngAl]

Given that the original question was about promotion to sqn ldr (sorry, what's the opposite of thread drift?). As aircrew, in addition to the appropriate staff courses, I believe he needs an "above average in the air" tick on his OJAR.

[Tinribs]

Some nasty remarks about the boys drifting in from certain parties, envy I wonder

Think a little, if you were a Royal would you want to give your chosen career mates the chance of saying you bypassed the exams. Given they are not difficult and they have a fair amount of alert time to study wouldn't it be much brighter to be able to say you had passed on merrit

So by implying they would screw the system you are also saying they are stupid, all the signs are this is not the case

Perhaps the critic just wished he could amount to something beyond snide remarks about his betters

[Biggus]

PN,

While I don't wish to be a party pooper....you said in post 10....

"Around 1975 the RAF abandoned the last of its promotion exams. "...

Well I took the C exam in either late 86 or 87, I'm not sure which, but I certainly took the C exam (as a bet as it so happens) during my second flying tour (86-89), and I didn't join until well after 1975!!!







I went to a roadshow about officer training a few years ago (ironically enough I think it was called ROAD), where they had a slide showing the staff training requirements to qualify for promotion from Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr, i.e. JOCL or JODL 1 and 2 or whatever it is, and the path for the old school "legacy" candidates (an ironic phrase I thought, given that there had only been 1 or 2 of the new IOTs so far, so the "legacy" represented about 99% of current candidates). My qualifications were so old, C exam and OCC (yes OCC, not JOCC) that I didn't even feature on their radar... Dinosaur or what. I think that, having once been qualified for promotion in terms of "staff training", I no longer am. You won't be surprised to hear that this situation doesn't keep me awake at night.... :ok:

[sisemen]

I took the C Exam in 84 and was promoted in 85 - they scrapped it at that point! I think I sat one of the last, if not the last C exams.

[SOSL]

Me too.

Sat the exam in the Education Centre at Akrotiri, in 1984.

Posted back to UK on acting promotion, re-ranked uniform, took over as oc squadron, received blue letter. Then Wg Cdr said no to my promotion - lots of hassle - retained the acting rank, got posted.

Worked for a notorious Stn Cdr who was a big fat bully and tormented me at every opportunity. In the end though he recommended my substantive promotion. I hate him and I love him.

Rgds SOS

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, OK I accept that, it was 27 years ago :)

All I know is I wasted my time although it did have it brighter moments.

I was sitting next to a chap who didn't put pen to paper in the whole exam. I was later his escort officer at his court martial :). He got off on a charge of sexual assault but left the Service shortly thereafter. The alleged offence took place the day before the exam. His performance in the C was not noted.

[Rossian]

....then there was the chap of the maritime persuasion who waited the obligatory? 20 mins? Then wrote "intentionally blank" in the middle of each page,back and front. Then walked out.

The Ancient Mariner

(The staish did give him a monumental bollocking.)

[Brian 48nav]

4th May 1972 was the date that Basil and all his mates got their second stripe ie scrapping of B exam'.

Just picked up a copy of The List for Spring 1973 so that I can show people that this long-haired scruffy layabout really was an officer!

[Pontius Navigator]

Brian, I remember two professional fg off. One Dinger Bell (what else) who was a nav plotter, the other was an ex-Neptune AEOp commissioned, divorced, and effectively colour balled.

One day in the mess - lounge suits - he turned up in an avantgarde suit for the day; I remember it well. It was a 4 button affair with pseudo straps to a pseudo belt. It had black buttons, IIRC, similar to the old No 2 black buttons, and the whole set off with a magnicent scarlet wool waistcoat.

The PMC, who had hung on to the job of PMC for almost his full tour, just for the box tick, threw him out of the mess. Shame really as I like them both. The PMC, aka OC Admin, ex-Observer and ex-OC 7, and current Lancaster Nav, eventually made gp capt.

The fg off, AFAIK, never made flt lt :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Some time around 73-74 our squadron commander had a load of us into his office, told us he understood none of us had put in for the 'C', and virtually ordered us all to do it. As far as I recollect we all applied, and I think we all passed. Mind you it didn't do me any good as I came out on the great 1975-76 redundancy scheme - like to think I might have eventually have scraped a scraper, but it's all academic now.

[langleybaston]

"Brian, I remember two professional fg off. One Dinger Bell (what else) who was a nav plotter, ".

Is this the Dinger who served on staff at RAF Finningley c. 1970? A very entertaining gent., both in the coffee bar and the mess.
As I recall, one morning he read aloud from the newspaper that outed homos were to be dismissed the service [it matters not if true or false] and said that they were being sent to a holding unit pro tem. A very young student asked him where the unit was. "FINNINGLEY, darling!" and he caressed the lads knee ........ a lot of coffee was spilled.

[ghostnav]

@siseman

You are wrong I am afraid. I took the C in 1988 or 1989 - it could not have been earlier as I was on the OCU!

[Biggus]

...and I told him in literally the previous post to his that it was still going in 86 or 87. It couldn't have been earlier as I didn't start my second tour until then. Still, you can't tell some people........

[Pontius Navigator]

ghost, I took the B while I was on the OCU. They were rather miffed but decided they couldn't stop me - I had only just got fg off. One paper was Air Ops - I hadn't got a clue; skipper told me about AP1300. I read it one night took the exam and passed :)

Langley, it may well have been; short and portly?

TTN, as I recall, Supplementary List officers were not required to pas the C as a prerequisite for promotion to sqn ldr. With the advent of single list and spec aircrew there were mixed messages. IIRC ex-supplementary list officers remained exempt but sqn cdrs, keen for the necessary tick in the box, pushed all unqualified officers to take the C.

I recall once requesting one of the drinking courses at Shawbury, JOCS or something similar only to be told that having passed the ISS I was too senior. Four years later, numbers at Shawbury were down and there was a 3-line trawl for all flt lt to do the course. I duly put to the boss that if I was too senior 4 years earlier . . .

[Exascot]

Am I correct in saying there was an age limit with the C when they gave up with you and you could be promoted regardless. I recall a friend (not aircrew I must add) who failed it 5 times and then was promoted as he had passed said age. This would be late 80s. It was to fill a post that everyone else was avoiding like the plague :hmm:

[Pontius Navigator]

exascot it could be that once the C went all holds were off, or spec aircrew?

[langleybaston]

"Langley, it may well have been; short and portly?"

Yes, and a barrel of laughs!

[Brian 48nav]

There were 2 Herc navs of that name who possibly were at Nav School instructing then.
Both vertically challenged, John had a hint of East African accent, very nice guy and later I believe 1st nav CO of Lyneham - the other who I only met for the first time in France 5 years ago, really tiny, quite punchy after a drink and real name George.

[Ron Cake]

PN

'...drinking courses at Shawbury.- JOCS or something like that....'

I think you mean the JC&SS course up the road a bit at Ternhill. IIRC that course was aimed at Flt Lt's who, in the case of aircrew, were about to take up a ground job where the abilty to string a sentence together and count to ten was desirable. I remember at the end of a gruelling afternoon on double entry book keeping, the DS saying to me, "I don't think you've got the hang of this, have you?" I had to admit he was right - which was a pity because I was about to become an OC Station Services Flt with all the non public accounts to look after.

I think the ISS course was meant to follow JC&SS. It was useful if you needed the ability to write an Op Order in five minutes flat or make brilliant decisions (...remember 'Essential' and Desirable' criteria and all that?). Then came the Basic Staff Course. That was a month at Bracknell spent chasing around trying to impress as a plausible staff office.

If Prince William has to do this sort of thing, I hope he can at least grasp double entry book keeping - I never did.

[Pontius Navigator]

'...drinking courses at Shawbury.- JOCS or something like that....'

I think you mean the JC&SS course up the road a bit at Ternhill. Quite right. As I said, I managed to avoid all that cr*p. My visits to that part of the estate have been strictly limited - the first when Shawbury was a Master and the div kit toothpaste we were issued was solid chalk it was so old. Then Pershore and the pubs of Worcester, and 40 years later when I took a load of junk to the RAF Museum.

IIRC that course was aimed at Flt Lt's who, in the case of aircrew, were about to take up a ground job where the abilty to string a sentence together and count to ten was desirable. Ah, having already done two ground tours, one a Ministry slot, I can see why I was too senior. To try and pick me up in the middle of a third ground tour . . .

I think the ISS course was meant to follow JC&SS. which I had done the previous tour :)

It was useful if you needed the ability to write an Op Order in five minutes flat but they never mentioned NADREX!

or make brilliant decisions (...remember 'Essential' and Desirable' criteria and all that?).

Actually a rather good part of the course. For Golf Clubs read caravan. For MRX read truck. For caravaning wife read long legged blonde.

Now chose. :)

[Exascot]

OCC course at Henlow mid 80s - inspirational introductory chat from an AVM. '40% of you in this room will become senior officers'. Anonymous voice from the back, 'may the rest of us leave now then please sir'.

Same course, we were asked to name the bomb which spread anti personnel mines on an airfield. In all innocence one potential senior officer said the JSP 101. Not a bad idea actually, I would avoid it.