Do IR hours count as P1?

[Bearcat F8F]

Hi guys, I am super-confused about this.

Lets say I need 100 hours PIC. Lets assume I have none at the moment. Does that mean that I can do 50 hours by hour building and get the rest of the required PIC time simply by doing the IR?

(for JAA)

[mad_jock]

Nope any time you have an instructor in the plane it is logged as dual.

[Bearcat F8F]

Well, in there it says "under instruction".

On some of the other topics that I read, it's been mentioned that IR hours can be logged as "PIC U/S" (Pilot In Command Under Supervision)". Is this incorrect? This is why I am confused...

[mad_jock]

Yes the only time you can log PICUS is when flying a multicrewed aircraft with permission of the Captain and passing a flight test with an examinor.


There is alot of rubbish spouted that you can log PICUS for any flight checks by instructors for rentals etc. YOu can't this is dual as well.

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks, so just to be 100% clear here. For purposes of obtaining 100 hours PIC in order to start the CPL, all of those hours need to be gained by means of hour building?

I also have 17 solo hours from my PPL training which I assume count towards the 100 required hours. Leaving me with at least 83 hours to get by hour building. Correct?

Thanks again for the help.

[aztec25]

To be absolutely clear you do NOT need 100 hours P1 to start your CPL training.

You need a TOTAL time of 150 hours to start the CPL training.

You DO however need 100 hours P1 to have your CPL issued after your training and a successful flight test. You can include the any PICUS time you have towards the 100 hours In command. (This will include any successful flight tests you've completed at the time you apply for your CPL licence)

[gooneydog]

Jock. What then does the captain log ?(in the above scenario) After all I assume he is the person signing the log book and responsible for the a/c Does he log P2 or do both log P 1

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks for the replies guys. Its all clear now.

To Get 100 hours P1 for the CPL, I can ONLY use:

1) Any solo hours acquired during the PPL syllabus
2) Hour building (e.g. renting an a/c)
3) Any hours flown for the duration of a successful flight test.

That's the way I understand it.

[mad_jock]

Captain logs PIC or P1 in old speak.

The FO doesn't log PIC they log the PICUS but still have the the Captain down as PIC.

It differs country to country and even between companys. In the UK the FO's tend to log any PF sector as PICUS and the captain doesn't sign their log book. Then they get a letter off the company saying thier hours are correct and the CAA will take that for ATPL issue.

The reason why they have it is so that pilots who go straight onto multicrew can build the required PIC time for ATPL issue.

Personally I have never logged it I had enough PIC time as an instructor and the folk that do tend to have to go back and rejig things when they get upgraded because it screws with your hours when you are applying for jobs because then companys arn't interested in PICUS time.

[Bearcat F8F]

Is there anything in LASORS about hours logged under the hood counting as "PIC U/S"?

A friend of mine is still convinced that anything under the hood once you have a PPL, can be logged as P1 and hence the IR hours too. He says that under the hood, the instructor counts as an observer. His previous instructor told him this apparently.

Personally I cannot find this anywhere in LASORS. Can it be in some appendix or something?

I can't imagine why any hours under the hood would make you PIC instead of P2. Whats the logic in that...

[madlandrover]

No. In a single crew aircraft, you are either P1 or you are not. P1/S applies only for successful skills tests, SPIC applies only on integrated courses. Your IR training will be logged as P/UT - otherwise it would not be an IR course. The FAA system is different in this respect.

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks. I've asked my friend to point the exact place where in LASORS it says what he told me. So if by some miracle he does find it, I will post it on here. Till then IR hours are P/UT.

Thanks again

[madlandrover]

He won't find it ;) - otherwise my IR students have been logging incorrectly. Without wanting to sound harsh, you would be well advised to read up thoroughly on logging rules from a source document rather than from online forums - I doubt any of the people who have given you incorrect advice would be happy to share liability should there be an issue in future! In essence, you may only log P1 when you are P1. If you are receiving training for a qualification/rating/licence etc then you cannot be P1, by virtue of you receiving training you must be P/UT.

[Gomrath]

once you have a PPL, can be logged as P1 and hence the IR hours too. He says that under the hood, the instructor counts as an observer. His previous instructor told him this apparently.
Maybe your mate is getting confused with FAA IR where hood time in simulated conditions can be counted as PIC with a safety pilot (also able to log PIC time).
but not under JAA..

[Genghis the Engineer]

He won't find it ;) - otherwise my IR students have been logging incorrectly. Without wanting to sound harsh, you would be well advised to read up thoroughly on logging rules from a source document rather than from online forums - I doubt any of the people who have given you incorrect advice would be happy to share liability should there be an issue in future! In essence, you may only log P1 when you are P1. If you are receiving training for a qualification/rating/licence etc then you cannot be P1, by virtue of you receiving training you must be P/UT.

Whilst I agree with you ML, in general, people on PPrune are pretty good at posting links to or extracts to source documents: as indeed City Flyer helpfully did. Something that, in my experience, makes it fairly unique amongst online bulletin boards.

G

[madlandrover]

True, it is better than most - and has the advantage that much of the erroneous information posted gets shot down fairly quickly! It's still distressing how many people get all the way through CPL/IR (and sadly even FI) courses without recourse to source documents. Probably partly due to test targeted learning!