RAF Merlin Crews Screwed

[graf]

With the impending doom upon the Merlin force does anyone know of any slots for pilots or crewmen, flying or ground tours, coming available in the next 12 - 18 months? Escape tunnel digging must commence....

:mad:

[LateArmLive]

Try asking PMA?

[althenick]

Serious question - could you not transfer into the RN?

[Pheasant]

Probably a silly question but does this mean the transfer to the RN is actually occurring? What about marinisation of the airframe, folding tail etc? Are they going to be based at Yeovilton or Culdrose?

As for the aircrew - presumably you are being offered slots with the Chinook Force?

[Melchett01]

Probably a silly question but does this mean the transfer to the RN is actually occurring?

Yep. RAF told in no uncertain terms to get on with it and stop waffling / stalling / prevaricating.

[Finnpog]

It still should be not too much to expect the chain of command to provide all folk on the squadrons (not just the aircrew) some broad information on what posting opportunities are planned.

The same is true for the wider station infrastructure.

This is in no way a suprise. There must be a plan. (That is just me being an optomist).

[Tourist]

No, It isn't going to the RN.

If it was, then surely chopabeefer would have been on here to eat humble pie?....

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/471754-will-puma-survive-16.html

[GalleyTeapot]

Nimrod folk went through this when that was scrapped, guess who has had to reduce their branch numbers by 50% between last year and 2015. Unfortunatly something similar must be coming the way of the Merlin crews now as other flying or ground jobs just arent there!

[Rigga]

GT,
Do you mean that some crew will go to the states for years to sit in the ex-presidential 101's waiting for some future delivery to the RAF of a totally unrelated craft?

[OafOrfUxAche]

RAF told in no uncertain terms to get on with it and stop waffling / stalling / prevaricating


Procrastinating, shurely?

[Lima Juliet]

Err, prevaricating fits as well - it means being evasive...:confused:

And stop calling him Shirley...:}

[Unchecked]

Althenick

Can't just transfer to the RN - they've always maintained that their numbers are spot on and that they can fully man the Merlin, so surely there aren't any slots for RAF aircrew to transfer into ? Apparently all of their costings for the transfer have always been spot on too. Looking forward to seeing them published - then we can all see if this is all worth it.

Pheasant

Yes, it is going ahead - I know in the past I've said it wouldn't but it is very much so. Humble pie being eaten here for you Tourist. Don't know anything about the marinisitation of the cabs, the biggest challenge is going to get the crews trained against the background of operations whilst the RAF guys also try and get released into other jobs. No, the RAF will not automatically pick up a Chinook cockpit, or a Puma cockpit or any other cockpit.the original plan was 28 merlin's for 24 new chinooks - that ain't happening, go figure.

[Melchett01]

Procrastinating, shurely?

We started by procrastinating and when that didn't work moved onto prevaricating. Neither seems to have worked in the grand scheme of things.

And whilst Merlin may have been a political choice foisted on the Air Force many moons ago rather than the military preference, those cries throughout the intervening years of get rid of it and give us Chinook would now seem to fall into the bracket of be careful what you wish for given the uncertainty being created in the current fiscally constrained times.

[Unchecked]

It was only the chinook force making those cries, I believe.

[VinRouge]

this isnt just affecting the rotary guys. unfortunately, other streams are being affected by not enough cockpits for pilots, with light at the end of the tunnel, situation reversed in 2-3 years.

The easiest solution bearing in mind there are absolutely no quality desk jobs out there for development would be to let some of us take a bloody good break after 9 years flat out doing some local community work or even go back do a masters etc. Unfortunately, there seems to be no emphasis on stability or development, as manning unfortunately dont have the jobs for people to go to it seems.

[Unchecked]

Vin.

What light at the end of the tunnel ?

[TAC Queen]

The light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off to save money (£0.22 annual saving).
While this cost saving measure is in place MoD has asked the defense industry to design a new lightweight multi role light bulb and has set aside a budget of 1.9 million over three years. The team will be headed by 1x 3 star and 2x 2 star and 1x 1star, these will all be new appointments and thus ensure that the HM Forces maintains more stars than cars.

[Unchecked]

Brilliant TACQ. Thanks ! :ok:

[chopper2004]

There's always the old saying "grass is greener on the other side" :) In this case its finding work in the Land of Black Gold, the land of plentiful curry spices, textiles etc and a former French colony via a nice interview and maybe a checkride or two in an office in the middle of a classic Somerset town!

Then again flying training for the former French colony operators seems to be taking place a lot in a former Nimrod colony lately :)

[chopabeefer]

How many people were posted to the New Nimrod? before it was cancelled...

How many hired by Soteria (SAR-H) before SARH was cancelled (I know a few)...

Navy crew training at Benson - Gee, I am worried.

It's staying.:ok:

[high spirits]

The aircraft is transferring to RN. The marinisation has not been funded........yet, that is my understanding. Good luck to the RN with it. I think they will find it tough to keep serviceable against an ever decreasing spares package and sending it to saltier climes.

My sympathy to the Merlin aircrew, who still have to deploy to the sandpit for the next 2 years whilst the RN crews are trained. They have been seen off big style. I think that the nimrod crews may feel fortunate that they got shafted when there were a few cockpits to fill. Now there are no spaces anywhere. I'm hearing from an insider that the offers from manning have been mostly derisory so far.

[globefan]

'Now there are no spaces anywhere...... The offers from Manning are derisory'.

Let's not forget this problem was not of Manning's making, they have to deal with the fallout from the decisions of our political masters. The bottom line is there are too many people for way to few jobs. It's going to be ugly just as it has been for the Nimrod boys and girls. Say what you like about Manning staff, but anyone really fancy that job right now? Thought not.

[high spirits]

Don't make me laugh....

This situation has been entirely predictable for nearly 2 years. They are just one more 'office' who buried their heads in the sand.

[Ivan Rogov]

I understand that emotions will be high on this subject and the SH world has my sympathies. I am one of many who are already in the predicament you will soon be facing, you have to make a critical choice.

Do you want to stay in the RAF?

It sounds obvious but until your job/role is gone it is difficult to get in to the right frame of mind, consider all the changes that will happen to pensions, allowances, SFA charges, etc. It will not be the job you know and maybe love now.

IF you decide to stay and avoid redundancy or the use of 'manning levers', then write off the next 3 years as far as any 'good' jobs go, the posting offers are not 'derisory', they are JPANs that need filling and can be opportunities to gain knowledge and skills that will make you professionally more useful and effective when you return to flying role.

I'm afraid it really is a case of drying your eyes and getting on with it :{, or seeing how many mouse clicks it takes to PVR on JPA :(.

After the initial shock many from my old fleet have found the opportunities outside the RAF too good to refuse, the problem now will be retaining what is left :sad:

[snafu]

As far as I'm aware (or have heard), the light blue are something like 100 aircrew posts overborne and didn't bother (dare) to include any in the recent redundancy round. I'm sorry fellas, but I think you've been shafted by your heirarchy!

[Tiger_mate]

It seems far fetched but I was told yesterday that there are already enough DHFS graduates in the hold to keep the Chinook OCF busy for 30 years! A precident in turning off the training pipeline for crewmen in total last occured in 1982 (for two years IIRC) and must surely be on the horizon again if there is even a half truth in the rumour.

[MaroonMan4]

I try and take a step back from the inevitable emotion going on up the road, but we should really take stock now of the way that we in the light blue do our business.

1. Can we stop all of the single Service agendas and politics (I know the other Services do it, but it appears to me on the shop floor that we really are brash, blunt and not very gifted at it). I personally believe that in 'fighting' some of the SDSR political decisions and also fighting the Fisheads has resulted in many staff officers being distracted (at best) from doing their day jobs, to potentially at worst running a campaign that potentially saw information witheld to further our position in the Merlin transfer fight. If people are our the main priority, then we took our eye off the ball when in reality we should at least have been running a shadow plan if Merlins didn't remain with us. By winning the Puma 2 debate we became over confident I believe. IMHO if some of the Airships and Blimps (including those doing non-jobs - see other threads on this forum) actually concentrated on running the RAF rather than a campaign of 'fight the Fisheads or fight the Pongos' at every opportunity in order to save cockpit seats, then we might not find ourselves in this situation.

2. There are some very good and capable officers up the road, and sadly I believe that they have been prevented from passing on information and applying their leadership skils early by an alleged policy from our Airships and Blimps of not stepping out party line so as not to jeopardise the RAF Merlin fight. Hopefully now these same officers will have unrestricted and unrestrained ability to properly inform and lead those under their command.

3. Just Culture is very much alive at my level. If I make a mistake then I fess up, however embarrassing or damaging it migth be. I believe that our Airships and Blimps should also have the same just culture and fess up to the SoS Defence in order to get a a Tranche 3 for the redundancis. We all know that MOD bad news is not liked, well if this is a genuine mistake by Air Command then it should be expalined as such in order to get the fair result for our people. If there is a significant pool of RAF aircrew that cannot be employed elsewhere (and I have no idea of the numbers, but gathering from the rumours it is hundreds) then our Airships and Blimps should at least have the honesty to request a Tranche 3 to give many of the 100 the option (if selected) to leave in a managed way, rather than hold them for years, put to them into jobs where they are not suited, or create an (unsafe and unhappy) environment where the majority are not doing jobs that they enjoy. We are just storing up trouble for when the pensions, New Employment Model and all the other Terms and Conditions of Service are changed/whittled away and they will leave disillusioned after many years loyal service.

What I will say is that although I do not agree with all of the Defence and Fishead arguments for our Merlin Force to transfer to the dark blue, I can (and always have) seen the logic. The buzz going round here is that there are now significant numbers of Fisheads up the road (the clearest indicator that transition is really is happening), and rather than rub our noses in it and gloat the Fisheads have quietly just got on with their jobs. I am not too sure that we would have been the same if Merlin had remained with us - a review of the 'Will Puma Survive' thread alone makes uncomfortable reading for some of us with our very arrogant and ill informed posts.

However sad, however painful, now that the Merlin transition is happening and the cat is out of the bag down on the shop floor I look forward to RAF people and personnel once again becoming the true focus over the coming months and years to get ourselves out of this mess.

And seriously, please can we now just stop the single Service agendas and politics which we have proven we are not very good at, and concentrate on what we excel at and are the envy of many Air Forces around the world.

[KG86]

MM4,

Fine sentiments, as usual.

You said "However sad, however painful, now that the Merlin transition is happening and the cat is out of the bag down on the shop floor I look forward to RAF people and personnel once again becoming the true focus over the coming months and years to get ourselves out of this mess."

As far as I am aware, no air officer has yet formally told the Merlin crews that the ac are transferring to the RN. The crews have read it here on PPrune (so it must be true!), and no doubt have observed that the latest Merlin OCF Cse is 100% dark blue.

That is a shameful lack of leadership.

[Finnpog]

It is more than a lack of leadership.
It is a lack of personal and professional integrity.

[Tourist]

chopa

Have you got multiple personalities, or what?

[Pheasant]

As far as I am aware, no air officer has yet formally told the Merlin crews that the ac are transferring to the RN.

Several points here. Firstly it was SDSR policy so to do....except that CAS tried to reverse this in the text of the document and the briefing notes that followed. As far as everyone else was concerneed the policy was to transfer. Secondly VCDS ordered CAS to get on with it. Thirdly I think CAS went to Benson and told them it will happen ("but watch this space") - and was later asked by CDS to confirm that it was all going ahead.

The problem with the RAF leadership, even down to station level is that they cannot follow an order! And they cannot provide the leadership to tell their own people in an honest way....and because of their obfuscation they do not allow the PMA to sort the poor Sqns out. Given they were losing a capability then redundancy should have been the honest way forward. Sad but true. By the by the same would have happened for the RN crews if the transfer was cancelled as that is where the savings really come from.......the RN leadership would have been totally up front throughout.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I don't know the current state of RW manning, but if the RAF losing the Merlin is going to result in dozens and dozens of people being out of a cockpit, does that mean the FAA have dozens and dozens of people sitting around spare? How are they manning it, is it replacing another airframe?

[Widger]

Its replacing the Mk4 Seaking.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Thanks Widger, I thought it had to be something along those lines.

[globefan]

High Spirits

'this situation has been entirely predictable for the last 2 years'

...maybe so, doesn't mean that on the timeline of the transition there were going to be anymore jobs to put people into. From what I hear there simply aren't. Anyone who knows anything about the redundancy program will know it was a political decision not to have a tranche 3. Moreover, tranche 2 timings simply did not work for Merlin and a number of other platforms. I know this is a rumour network, but it would be nice to get closer to the actual truth sometimes....

[MaroonMan4]

Tourist,

Chopabeefer probably deleted his post as he possibly wrote after a few too many sherbets and got all emotional-I would cut him/her some slack as reading between the lines it would appear that he/she is one of ours that is a victim of this high level activity.

5 Forward,

It is my understanding that this debacle is not purely down to our senior leadership playing politics with the Fisheads over Merlin. We took all the things we as a Service liked about the Rotary Wing Strategy and SDSR and swiftly acted upon them (increase recruiting through DHFS for the anticipated increase in Chinook numbers etc being but one example), but at the other end of the spectrum we also delayed, procrastinated, prevaricated, (you name it, we tried it!) for the political decisions that we didn't like (again fighting Merlin transfer being but one area I believe).

Therefore, while we were tapping away all these letters and demanding these 'studies' and reviews challenging these political directives and orders, concurrently increasing our aircrew numbers for Chinook and Puma 2, no one was allowed (or even dare) mention or staff options that would have considered a managed drawdown should our premis be incorrect and the politicians and VCDS actually go through with the orders given to them via SDSR.

If there had been any concurrent planning or wider military judgement then we on the shop floor would not feel so shocked by the reality of the last 2 weeks.

I personally believe that sadly this plan by our Airships and Blimps was taken right to the wire until very recently , when a combination of some senior intervention telling our senior leadership to get on with it (i.e. Merlin transition), combined with a political decion to reduce the RWS Chinook new buy. Which all of a sudden means that we have far too many aircrew 'in the system' , with only the newbies made redundant (in a pretty horrid way by all accounts, and also potentially strangling the new blood that may have been our future leaders).

IMHO we would be in a much better place if our Airships and Blimps had just accepted the RWS and SDSR outcomes and planned, staffed and delivered an honest and fair manpower aircrew drawdown across all ages, ranks, skills and qualifications, admitting that we might have jumped the gun with Chinook new buy recruiting and also that our Merlins were transferring to the Fisheads.

As to Tranche 3 being political (and therefore un available to us), again it is my understanding that the Pongos are having a Tranche 3 to manage the huge numbers that they have been asked to reduce (note the context of size and also the Army's ability to explain to the politicians the essential requirement for a Tranche 3).

I really hope that as our senior leadership got us into this mess by playing political games and gambles, that they will have the moral courage to get us out of it, firstly by apologising to the other 2 Services and seeing if we can fill any spare cockpits with RAF 'exchanges' and secondly being honest with the politicians and piggy backing an RAF aircrew Tranche 3 on the back of the Army's. Thereby at least giving the option for some to leave in a managed way, rather than 'tough, if you don't like it you can get your P45 on the way out the door'.

How very sad, and I really do hope that our Airships and Blimps have learnt some lessons and have noted the pain, grief,angst and uncertainty that they have now caused to their personnel and to service families that they have the prime responsibility for and which should have been the priority post SDSR, not trying to score points or get one over on the Fisheads or Pongos.

Especially when we might need their help to sort this mess out and in presenting a united front as we run into SDSR 15.

[Willard Whyte]

Do you mean that some crew will go to the states for years to sit in the ex-presidential 101's waiting for some future delivery to the RAF of a totally unrelated craft?

Wait 'til TB (how apt) makes a 'glorious' return with gormless Broon as VP, when the Monarchy is deposed. Might need presidential transport then.

[Melchett01]

Do you mean that some crew will go to the states for years to sit in the ex-presidential 101's waiting for some future delivery to the RAF of a totally unrelated craft?

As I understand it, the Presidential 101s went to Canada last summer to be used as spares to keep their CH-149 Comorant fleet going.

[VinRouge]

Well, looks as if none of us are immune. Even Flt Lt Wales is desk bound.

RAF tells Prince he has to choose between flying and Royal duties | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2140197/RAF-tells-Prince-choose-flying-Royal-duties.html)

[high spirits]

Globefan,
If the situation was entirely predictable, is there a case for 'constructive dismissal'?
Remember, this is not a 'nimrod' situation as the ac is not going out of service. Instead, replace the aircrew, give them nowhere to go (except the sh!t ground posts that noone else wants) and then hope that they leave instead of paying out redundancy.

Food for thought.

[camelspyyder]

Melchett, WW

Do you mean that some crew will go to the states for years to sit in the ex-presidential 101's waiting for some future delivery to the RAF of a totally unrelated craft?


I think you both missed the point here - Rigga was clearly paraphrasing a statement about the Maritime Seedcorn initiative, in response to a Nimrod fleet poster (GT)

CS:ok:

[globefan]

high spirits

So with your deep understanding of all things Manning, with a heavy dose of cynicism to boot, what flying jobs do you advocate these guys and gals going into? Isn't everywhere full? The aircraft may not be going out of service like the Nimrod, but it's as good as when you factor in single service rivalries.

Which brings us back to the shocking lack of leadership from the senior 'leadership' - oh yes, and the so called politicians.....

[high spirits]

Globefan,
You make my point very well. I'm not part of the force, but i happen to know it is made up of some relatively young aircrew who (if they have nothing to fly) could take their talents elsewhere. Offer them a redundancy package.

Instead, and because of politics, they are in a snare. Stay and do sh!t ground tour or PVR and lose all flying pay. The service tempted them in by offering FLYING. Now it should do the honourable thing and let some of them go (who want to) whilst they are still young enough to get jobs. There are places recruiting - north sea for example.

As usual the mantra would seem to be, let's make life miserable, then they will leave and we don't have to pay them off.

[Heathrow Harry]

why should anyone be paid off if they go on to another job?

[nice castle]

Because most jobs don't require a year's notice to leave, and if they do, they don't financially penalise you in that final year.

[Unchecked]

And you won't spend a portion of that final year dodging bullets and RPGs over the badlands of Helmand province.

[wg13_dummy]

Has a point been missed here? If the RAF are losing airframes, surely it follows that their manning should also be reduced? The RAF seem to be clutching on to aircrew without actually reducing numbers even when they cant gainfully employ them. Its quite sad if you lose your seat but I'm pretty sure the MoD isnt a job creation scheme. Pretty shabby how certain elements within the RAF are actively trying to stitch the FAA up right up to handing the Merlins over.

Guess its payback time for the SHAR :hmm:

[airborne_artist]

Apparently it's all smiles at Benson from the boys (and girls) in light blue :E :

Trailblazers lead the way for future Marines helicopter | Royal Navy - "RAF embrace arrival of Royal Navy"
(http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2012/July/03/120703-RAF-embrace-arrival-of-Royal-Navy)

[Could be the last?]

As we are regularly reminded to look at the way industry conducts business, what CEO or, more importantly, shareholders in their right mind would take a capability (fully trained and productive) and give it to another part of the same company and start again from scratch.........?

[Bigpants]

Come and join us in civvy street, its not so bad, you need a stack of cash or a very big loan, a lot of hard work and in a couple of years hence you could be chained (financially) to the right seat of an orange airbus or something Irish....

Seriously, sort of, if the service is screwing you over and there is no respite on the horizon change suits. I did and it was a bumpy but interesting ride in 1995.

There is also a pilot shortage looming (has been for twenty odd years) so anyone with the required ability, including non flying service personnel, can give it a swing.

Oxford Kidlington just down the road from Benson....

Older civvy pilots like me fail their medicals, get fed up or have earned enough to get out so opportunities out there.

Bigpants

[seadrills]

This is hardly a new capability for the CHF. It is just a new airframe. When the Merlin Mk4 is delivered to Yeovilton the Junglies will be doing the same job the do now.

[Unchecked]

You're right, not a new capability for anyone. So why destroy the capability (trained crews) you already have and then train someone else to do the same thing at "x" cost ? It was a ridiculous decision, yeah, CHF may be saved, but it will prove to be a ridiculous decision when the RAF CH47 deploys on the boats to backfill the losses of chf lift due to the merlin failing to perform. Again. Jobs for the boys, no more, no less.

[seadrills]

The reason is simple. The RAF is run by men and ladies who do not do RW aviation. Unless you are a fast jet or a FW aircraft that provides a capability unmatched elsewhere in the Armed Forces then the RAF are not interested. The RAF are not interested nor do they understand rotary winged aviation and consider it best be left for the RN and AAC to use.

[MaroonMan4]

Here we go again :( I hope not:ugh:

Do we have to be so dramatic?

Lets get real, there is no cost in replacing 'x' with 'y' over the next 5-10 years, the Merlin OCF would still train people regardless of their colour of cloth (unless they are to lower standard of pilot and require more training?). The bean counters do not care who is in the course, as long as they put their bum on a seat. We would be training the same number of RAF crews over the next 5-10 years regardless.

It could also be argued that if (and it still is an if) Defence wants power projection through its carriers and not Expeditionary Air Wings (see Cats and Flaps thread if you need some bed time reading), then future long deployments at sea positioning '65,000 tonnes of diplomacy' around the globe are well suited to those brought up in the maritime environment (i.e. the Fisheads).

If however Defence just wants its future F-35s, AH, CH47 and Merlins to tip up and use the future carriers as a floating airfield for short periods, then lets re-visit a more Joint RW model (as per the current Joint F-35 plan) at the next SDSR. Then we can have a more mixed OCF throughput of RN and RAF (i.e. a Joint Force Merlin) or maybe take the leap to a Joint Rotary Force in toto?

As to capability delivery, lets do the homework and research before we sound off saying that the mighty wokka can do all the amphib stuff - across all areas, not purely in lift. If pure lift and the Chinook was the answer, then why did we have a Merlin force in the beginning, and why have we fought so hard to keep Puma 2? Amphibious operations and operating from the sea is not purely about aircrew, flying and deck landings, there is a plethora of other considerations that make a amphib capability.

We do need to be careful if we do go down what superficially appears a sensible, and cost effective option (i.e. our Airships and Blimps should be able to spin a Joint Force), then the next logical step is a Joint Force Apache, Joint Force Chinook, Joint Force Puma, all under Army, being deployed under a Joint Forces Command. It does not take a major step of logic to put all Battlefield Helicopters under Army full stop :ouch:

Do we really want to be 'owned' completely by Army, waiting for a rotational light blue Commander JFC or CDS to ensure that we are not abused by the Army or maybe by then we are just all Army :{

As I have said before we have to be really careful when we start throwing around comments of cost in this current financial environment, as all we do is attract scrutiny into the way we do our business, and we might not be perfect in many areas.

From where I sit, my friends up the road all seem to be content with their lot (i.e. Merlin crews are [B]not[B] screwed), with the majority moving on to career developing future employment and jobs that they are happy with. Not all, but the majority.

[OafOrfUxAche]

then why did we have a Merlin force in the beginning


Ah yes, Merlin was procured entirely on the grounds of the amazing capabilities it possesses...