View Full Version : Basings study update?
Red Silox Cup
29th Apr 2012, 06:52
There seems to be a lot of on line chatter about certain basing areas being reduced or closed.
Does anyone know when this study was completed and when it will be actioned?
Can they even close bases legally where they are on shored?
29th Apr 2012, 07:00
Rumours of a announcement regarding basings sometime in June. Who knows...
29th Apr 2012, 07:16
All basings will close and officers wishing to return to HKG must take the new housing package of 24K per month.
29th Apr 2012, 07:54
If bases close then what is plan B for those in HKG wanting a base?
29th Apr 2012, 07:59
There won't be a plan B as there will only be a HKG base!
29th Apr 2012, 08:02
Baywatcher. You are a first class pratt. There is NO possibility of bases being closed. Perhaps some, but certainly not all. You are simply trying to wind people up. CX would see a mass exodus of pilots if they even hinted at such a thing. Put up or shut up pal.
29th Apr 2012, 08:15
Wait and see!
29th Apr 2012, 08:21
Because of the commercial downturn and to save CX a lot of money in basings with social security demands and other benefits that hit our bottom line.........
29th Apr 2012, 08:57
Baywatcher. There is NO chance of it happening. As I said, put up or shut up. Remember the old adage: better to keep quiet and let them think you are an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt. What part of 'CX would see a mass exodus of pilots' can't you understand? The airline is already chronically short of pilots (the ONLY reason they may park a/c). If they threatened bases, there would be probably over a 500 pilots leaving the airline in short order.
29th Apr 2012, 09:06
Furthermore Baywatcher.....if (and it's a BIG if) CX closed bases, officers would have the option of returning on the PRESENT housing scheme. You really are a pathetic little wind-up artist aren't you? Again....put up or shut up.
29th Apr 2012, 09:18
Hey dbored, me thinks you might be the only one here making a fool of yourself. You said it yourself, they would have a mass exodus if they announced closing bases. Why not just keep quiet and let them wither away, or perhaps announce their closing at the next downturn. Pilot surplus sorted.
29th Apr 2012, 09:25
Eddie. What 'pilot surplus' are you referring to? Everyone who is operating knows that we are severely short of pilots.....!!! What 'Alice in Wonderland' fantasy world do you live in pal? I've just done my 7th month in a row with overtime. Also, perhaps you noticed the fleets are begging for people to volunteer as trainers? Seriously, have you and Baywatcher been in the pub together since early morning?
29th Apr 2012, 10:18
There never will be / has been a mass exodus. What are you smoking? Where would you go!
29th Apr 2012, 12:25
I have a young family here in the US. My wife is near her parents, and she has a good job. If CX wants to play games with peoples family life and stability they will reap what they sow. I can categorically confirm that I will not return to HK under any circumstances. I am sure there is at least another several hundred who wouldn't as well. It's the company that's 'smoking' something if they think such a dramatic move wouldn't result in absolute chaos.
29th Apr 2012, 15:09
You got mental probs mate. Go get an x-ray or something. You may not like the guys you fly with - they may not like you - but you are on the same team maaty.. You need a mental check-up = go get it :ok:
29th Apr 2012, 15:12
CX management WILL f@<hidden> you around as much as they can - especially with the latest yearly results - no living up to the high expectations (even though it was a bloody nice profit!).. Just learn to understand that management are not there to cater for you (dbored inclusive) - they are there to make a bonus.. thats it! :eek: :ok:
29th Apr 2012, 16:51
It is well known that Mr Slossar wanted to close all the bases before onshoring began, primarily because of the difficulty for the company in satisfying what are often conflicting rules between different jurisdictions. When you look at what is happening in Canada and Europe he was right.
Housing costs were not an issue.The only reason it did not happen is because Flight Ops said he could lose a third of his crew.
With the exception of the US, the current policy is to allow the bases to decline. As FOs take their commands in HK they will not be replaced and it goes without saying that there will be no new commands on the bases. This is already happening as is evident to everyone.
My understanding is that the basings review will re-assess the establishment on each base. It is entirely likely that where a base is overcrewed, then crews will be offered a transfer to HK. Seniority will decide who goes. Manchester and Vancouver are in the crosshairs.
The US is unlikely to be affected since a judge has already decided that US based pilots work for a HK company, whereas in the UK, Canada and Australia onshoring transfers the employment and therefore the tax liability to the onshored jurisdiction. The laws in those jurisdictions are clashing with HK laws and since CX is a HK enterprise the company cannot avoid HK law. Neither can it avoid onshored law. The company is in a vice and should never have onshored, but hindsight is terrific asset.
29th Apr 2012, 17:35
Can't understand your expression "put up or shut up"
I wasn't complaining old chap, merely stating a rumour; thought that was what pprune was all about!
29th Apr 2012, 17:42
Boy you people bite on a rumour; didn't you notice the starter of this thread?
29th Apr 2012, 20:15
Dbored was reacting to the comments of Baywatcher, and he was right. Baywatcher was stating without qualifying that bases would be closed, and furthermore that pilots would have to return on a base of 24K. Neither statement has ANY basis in fact. Under our contract, we can return to HK with our current housing deal based on seniority. CX can not just arbitrarily remove that, it has to be negotiated. As for the bases being closed, Hawkeye just mentioned that Slosar was told by Flt Ops (fact) that he risked losing up to a third of the pilots if he implemented that plan. That is exactly what Dbored said. Baywatcher is the one who needs a mental check up, as he was simply throwing a hand grenade and enjoying winding people up in the process.
Red Silox Cup
29th Apr 2012, 21:54
I echo your previous statements and can't see a return to HKG in my family's future.
That being said USAB is usually exempt from these rumors given that they have not on shored it.
Many people have already given up HKG pax commands to take up SYD and YVR freighter positions and they seem like likely targets...yet another FOP mess. I think any thing is possible, who would have foreseen that we now only hire SO's with no expat benefits at that.
30th Apr 2012, 01:55
The company won't close the bases:
1. A based pilot is cheaper than a HKG pilot (no housing, no education, cheaper medical, no reserve coverage in hotels)
2. To move all based crews back to HKG would cost too much
3. Too many pilots would leave
4. Recruitment is already scrapping the bottom of the barrel. No bases will only make it harder
30th Apr 2012, 02:49
The last two and particularly #4 - recruitment - is the biggest reason bases will stay around. The glimmer of hope that you'll end up at home instead of HKG is responsible for the majority of expat pilots in the last 10 to 15 years. It may be a great adventure when you're single but not very many guys are enthralled with raising a family in Hong Kong.
30th Apr 2012, 03:38
what about the little chestnut of, if they close the bases in Australia and say there is no need for the position and you need to return to hong Kong. They cannot force you to move and the position is now redundant, they need to pay redundancy packages to all those that say shove it! I wonder if that is factored into the profit and loss statement?
30th Apr 2012, 03:42
I believe that basings as we know it are finished. They will never force those on the base back to HKG but I think you will find that very few or no new base slots will open. "Wither on the vine" sound familiar?
There will also not be a BIG announcement of the the new plan because as a previous poster said there will be a large number of pilots, waiting for a base, calling it a day then. It's the old "dangle the big juicy carrot" trick. People will stay in the hope of getting that base when the company know that they have no intention of offering it.
This can then also address issue #4 above - it leaves the DEFO hired directly onto the base option open should it be needed at some future point.
I think the "issue" with basings essentially comes down to one thing - control/power. CX are losing control of the situation as they are being forced to abide by 1st world style labour laws. I am pretty sure that they will willingly forego some significant staff savings in order to regain the power that they are losing.
CX and Swire don't play very well with others when they are not getting their way!
30th Apr 2012, 03:53
Well said, tiger321. There will be no big announcement because too many guys might leave and less people will be interested in coming here with a view on future prospects.
If the guys at the top really wanted bases to happen, they'd be far more proactive in getting things going. Like you say they don't like sharing their toys, even if it saves a few pennies.
30th Apr 2012, 04:32
I don't think it will take the company 'announcing' bases are done to start at least a small exodus. I agree that they will never outright say they are done b/c a lot will leave, however, I personally believe that their silence speaks volumes. Their lack of communication regarding this to me says it all.
In the US alone, you have a once in a lifetime tidal wave of retirements beginning coupled with airlines like DAL looking at new contracts relatively soon. If AMR/USAir happens it will be pegged to DAL rates. It would easily be worth it to leave CX even after 10 years here to be at the beginning of that type of wave from a $$ and lifestyle perspective. Sure, upgrade times may be similar but would you rather be senior in your seat in the US with a free commute and short trips, or pay for your commute to do an 11 day pattern that you have no say in?
And finally, please those that take their retirement money as cash.....please stop counting it as salary. It is not. I hear all the time that we get paid in accordance with other US majors. We do not. We get paid relatively similar if you INCLUDE our 15.5%. Don't forget that most US majors offer anywhere from 10-16% B-plans/401K match as well in addition to their salaries.
30th Apr 2012, 05:04
You are all right guys, bases will never be closed. In fact, they are so happy with bases that they haven't offered any in 2 YEARS. That is two years of housing and education they could have saved on several pilots.
Cathay are so happy with bases that they even put a workgroup together to find out how to get more pilots on bases. We should know the results of this workgroup soon. That will be the official line from management every few months. Maybe the workgroup was put together to offer pilots incentives to take bases, like housing or 13th month. Yeah, that's it. You heard it here first. :rolleyes:
You can burry your head in the sand all day long, does not really affect me. But if I was on a base with no intent of being HKG based, I would be updating my logbook and doing research on the web into suitable options. :hmm:
30th Apr 2012, 05:56
So, to summarise:
We are firmly divided into two camps. Those on a base believe there will always be bases and those in HKG firmly believe bases will be closed.
That about right?
30th Apr 2012, 06:05
Bases are finished. Done. End of the line.
The *only* issue left to resolve is how to bring everyone back at minimum cost and minimal loss. The final nail in the coffin was the (unsuccessful) 777 JFK base opening discussions.
30th Apr 2012, 06:09
A close mate had JS visit the FD, he was asked about Basings.
JS said they will keep Basings, they save money and keep the crews happy and most importantly help retain crew.
So, if the big boss wants them then.........
30th Apr 2012, 06:39
He does not want the bases but he does want to keep the existing crew, so he will not rock the boat for now. But expect a reduction in base establishment. If freighter crews leave because they do not wish to re-locate there will be little pain to the company, since freighters will soon be parked.
The company are already putting in place the local conditions under which all future pilots will be employed. In 15 years time todays recruits will be Captains on local terms so the cost of housing is a diminishing problem.
I would not work for CX on local terms, but some may not have an option. Opportunities in Europe are limited by a stagnant economy so CX may be the best an aspiring pilot can get.
But looking on the bright side............................................errrmmm
30th Apr 2012, 07:51
It will be interesting to see what developes as the year progresses. It is my belief they will want to keep the option of basings open but quietly let some(Australia, in particular) naturally reduce in numbers. At least until the long service leave and other headache issues are sorted out in Australia.
And, of course, they will still be able to tell people at interviews that the basings option does exist. A bit like the 2 years as S/o and 10 years to command spiel being put forward recently.
For those wanting an Australian base in the future, you may have a very long wait.
30th Apr 2012, 09:13
If they are closing the basings, why would they be building a new crew hotel behind the AOA Building across the road from Cathay City?
30th Apr 2012, 10:29
It is not only cockpit crew that use the headland hotel.
There is plenty of cabin crew demand, engineers and outport staff coming in for training, let alone the odd boondoggle of a conference to fill it up.
30th Apr 2012, 12:12
why would they be building a new crew hotel behind the AOA Building across the road from Cathay City?
Well, for one they just recently delayed/cancelled those plans. But even if they did revisit it, it's because:
1) They're recruiting cabin crew, like mad, in 3rd world countries
2) Rest can be reduced to 10 hours if company provided accommodation is provided in HK, and
3) They've got a lot of crew left on the bases to wither on the wine.
Good Business Sense
30th Apr 2012, 13:16
Globalization the way of the future (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9235729/PandO-cruise-ship-crew-paid-just-75p-per-hour.html)
30th Apr 2012, 13:57
I know this is a ridiculous idea, but could any of you offer some defense of your opinions/rumors besides citing a friend of a mate talked to a bloke that had a flight with Slosar. How about using some numbers? Maybe past company behaviors?
Here are some relevant questions regarding the issue:
1. Why has CX had zero base openings in several years?
2. Is CX getting new joiners?
3. Is the global supply/demand of pilots in balance for the future?
1. The global economic slowdown has caused formerly uninterested governments to look for ways to boost revenue. CX has fallen victim to this and has been forced to adjust its old model of outsourcing bases. Rather than continue to add to bases that they are unsure of how to manage; they have wisely decided to install a moratorium. Meanwhile, HKG is still within their control and they still need pilots so they continue to staff HKG.
2. Yes. I am not debating quality, merely quantity. They are coming on sub-standard terms to boot.
3. Yes and no. While the global supply of qualified pilots has been on the decline relative to slightly increasing demand, CX are getting around this by hiring people and training them to be pilots. Additionally, they can always hire from other airlines that fold a la Oasis. The fact remains that CX is getting people to join. Counter to that is the relatively small number leaving, which is planned.