55 years of exchange between RAF IOT and USAFA comes to an end

[chopper2004]

RAF exchange officer departs Air Force Academy (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123299261)

I wonder if this is about budgetary constraints on this side of the Atlantic or their side. Hopefully this program will re start again as said in the article.

[6foottanker]

As the article says, there are several other USAF exchange posts being withdrawn, including the UK/US tanker exchange I am currently undertaking. It's sad and hopefully not final, but there are myriad reasons for the reduction, not just a lack of MOD cash.

Just take a look at the goings-on in China's back yard with naval exercises with a variety of nations to try to extend the US regional influence to counter the expansion of the Chinese. Just an example of how the US is rebalancing towards that theatre, but with that comes the redistribution of exchange programmes with countries such as Japan, Australia, Korea etc.

And how are we keeping our Navy and RAF harrier pilots gainfully employed, whilst keeping naval aviation skills or regaining cats and traps experience? The UK has created extra Navy and Marine exchanges in place of other, perhaps less in demand posts.

Makes sense to me, even if it is disappointing.

BTW, congrats on the command (and the cheesy pic) Bomber!

[Startrek3]

When did OACTU/IOT last have a USAF exchange officer on its staff? IIRC there was no USAF presence when I was there in 2004.

[MG]

I was due to be the replacement in June and was told the reasons for its cancellation were those as described by 6foottanker. Needless to say, We'd have loved the opportunity to live in Colorado, but it wasn't to be.

[iRaven]

Are they really putting a Nav in charge of the Typhoon OEU? If so, there's hope for a lot of WSO/Nav Wg Cdrs out there!

I'm not maligning Bomber - he's a great bloke, I'm just surprised a Nav will head up the Typhoon OEU.

iRaven

[chopabeefer]

A day of mixed blessings I think. There are plus and minus points to this story.

Having worked with quite a few US exchange Officers (in the UK - not been lucky enough to ever go there), I feel a tiny bit qualified to comment.

It seems to me it really was a meeting that resulted in benefits for both sides. The US gained experience from real Sqn's, working in real time, without their level of technology, making daily decisions. I flew with very experienced USAF Instructors who would have genuinely struggled to pass an RAF Wings trip. Please don't take this the wrong way - they were top lads, the best their nation could produce, but bordering on incompetent in the UK, when working with the RAF. Vice Versa, UK bods who have had the chance to go there all agree the US is an amazing place to live, beats the UK hands down on a LOT of levels, but you need to be prepared to work with people...err...'less' intelligent than yourself.
Not a loss, really. At least, not for us.

Yanks - gotta love 'em - GREAT people and an wonderful country, but working with 'em? - another matter

[Red Line Entry]

Little harsh there, chopa, but I see where you're coming from. My view would be that they are more used to relying on technology and a heavy support tail simply because that's what they have. They are also incredibly rule-bound which can constrain initiative at the tactical level. However, this is balanced by the fact that their organisation as a whole is quicker to respond to changes than the MoD, despite the former's greater size.

For all that, their best is as good as (if not better, due to training resources) our best any day of the week.

[FIGJAM_SEA]

Vice Versa, UK bods who have had the chance to go there all agree the US is an amazing place to live, beats the UK hands down on a LOT of levels, but you need to be prepared to work with people...err...'less' intelligent than yourself.
Not a loss, really. At least, not for us.

Hell yeah, of course they are "less intelligent" than Brits!
I mean, just look at the present state of the UK and that of the US.. sooo much smarter these Brits....

And these Septics, always ranting against the countless faults of their country and so eager to leave it.. completely unlike the Brits I used to encounter all over the world all fondly thinking back about the motherland and always longing for getting back to "Blighty" ASAP....

[Art Field]

I regretably have to agree with several of the points made not so subtley by chopabeefer reference USAF exchange officers but offer one main reason and that is the Command Post mentality.In general the USAF aviator is not expected to make any decision for himself but how those that man the Command Post learn how to make decisions for them is a mystery to me.

I met many USAF exchangers and they were invariably really nice guys and great fun to be with. Just once, as if to prove the general rule, there was Fred, one of the best pilots in any mans Air Force.

[A and C]

While not strictly on thread I worked for an airline in the USA and found that it was populated by some extremely top line people and it had some people who I simply simply would not get a job sweeping the floors in UK aviation let alone flying!

What seemed to be missing was the middle ground of good solid safe aviators who seem to populate aviation in the UK.

The USA seems to be a land of extremes in a lot of ways.

[Secret1]

Is he in the RAF or the EAF?

It is such a shame that S/L Harris seemingly does not know very much about his own country's history and constitution! He talks about England, rather than the United Kingdom :uhoh: Is it because of incompetence, a lack of education, or adverse influence by 'them over there' having 'colonialised' him?'

And he is to become a Wing Commander?
Navigating himself and others only around England?
With or without a map of the United Kingdom?
Somehow, I cannot see him reaching 'star' rank!

Where would England be without the help of the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish, and others?
Spreckeningdeutchindewesternlandeofdegrossedeutchelande:*

[Max Contingency]

Secret 1 - Re-read the article! You will find that it is the author of the article that confuses England with the UK.

Of course a lesser man might now accuse you of incompetence or lack of education, but that would just be plain rude........;)

[6foottanker]

Over here, you find that articles such as these are written by very junior Airmen who have a poor grasp of a) grammar, b) spelling and c) current affairs. Most of the words outside quotations come from the authority of Google. All in the name of keeping the troops 'informed'. To be fair, they have to come up with enough local bull**** to fill a newspaper every week, and that's a lot of articles to author.

Like the media airman who wrote enthusiastically about the 'VC10 Javelin'. When I tried to find out where she had found this blatanly made-up information, I put in VC10 into US Air Force Google search (yes, they have their own Google search engine), and the first hit was VC10 Javelin.... The link took you to an article on the BAe VC10 Javelin maintainence contract, but she never got that far. Must have been a tight deadline.

"Would you like to know more..." :hmm:

[Whenurhappy]

I have spent most of the last 12 years working for/with US personnel - including a 3* State Department diplomat - as well as officers from all four Services, in different locations around the world

I have found almost all of them to be intelligent, professional, hard working, flexible and a lot of fun to be around. Most - if not all - show a genuine interest about 'England' (luckily, because we've managed to let our holiday cottage to several groups!) and willingly take part in our modest Queen's Birthday and Jubilee Celebrations. They all love london - I cheerfully produce an itinery for those who want to 'do' London in 2-3 days. Clearly my time in MB wasn't wasted. Yes, US personnel - especially Officers - do put in long hours because of the 'face time' requirement for their fitness reports, but overall in the 6 overseas locations (3 operations, 3 HQs) I have served with US personnel, I have found them much more hard working that the average British officer.

I accompanied another senior US Diplomat a while back to treaty talks in London and squirmed uncomfortably witnessing the performance of senior British Civil Servants and Ministers (former and current) trying to tackle some of the treaty issues. That was not a time for the understated 'Heroic Amatuerism' approach that we in the UK seem to be proud of.

I have encountered a few a***ses, most notably the US Army Garrison Cdr at KAF a few years ago who pulled a pistol on a speeding RAF crew bus driver.* I also had a pistol pulled on me by a USA MP who accused me of rolling through a stop sign on a US Garrison in Germany.**

However, I have found their NCO cadre to be a little 'slow', in many cases. In theatre after the 6 month point the NCOs seem to go into an automaton state: they seem to struggle to understand simple instructions (in Engerlish) and have no sense of the 'big picture'. Unless they've worked in Europe, for example, they have not one wit of an idea about NATO - or Europe, for that matter. However, I could temper this - I've encountered similarly dull British Army NCOs in support roles - but this is an exception, rather than the rule in HM Forces.

Perhaps I should qualify my comments. None of these posts have been flying roles although we had two first-class USAF exchange officers in MB during my time. One doesn't survive several operational tours on A-10s, F-15 and F-16s without being rather good, I contend.


* speeding is such a perjorative term. Try 25 mph. The Col was also returned under escort to CONUS for striking one of his officers.

** In his defence, I had rolled through the stop sign and he was on a rest tour from Iraq and clearly suffering from PTSD.

[Fortissimo]

This is nothing more than a routine and regular re-balancing of the exchange distribution and it can be generated by either side. If you are managing an exchange programme properly, the placements should fit with strategic objectives (if you have any...) and both parties normally gain from the experience.

I was in MB a few years ago when HQ PTC thought it was a good idea to cancel the entire exchange programme as a saving and promptly deleted the budget lines for it. Then we pointed out that the front-line jobs previously filled by foreign exchanges still needed doing, so we would need to have the 'cancelled' RAF exchange people back to replace johnny foreigner! Ergo, no manpower savings, just huge disruption and loss of influence resulting from the Innsworth cunning plan. Strangely enough, the programme was reinstated shortly thereafter.

[Whenurhappy]

A mapping exercise done in the Air Staff a few years ago revealed a huge grey economy of RAF pers in the US - oftentimes long after the need for that post. It was further muddied by SP seconded to the defence industry and then moved to the States to work on joint projects. The numbers, in total, exceeded 150!

[Fbomber3]

Just want to put a few things straight from the article that kicked this thread off. Firstly, the USAF/RAF exchanges are being reduced because of this CSAF guidance:

'While the United States will maintain its focus on the Middle East, the defense strategic guidance also calls for a rebalance toward the Asia-Pacific Theater...'.

Hence it is the USAF who are rebalancing....that's not to say the RAF don't want to reduce US numbers as well, hence in the end it is a win win for both.

Secondly, there is definitely not going to be a nav in charge of 17!! Journalist saw Sqn Ldr rank and took it literally to mean command (leader) of the sqn!! Not even promotion, never mind command. But location is right for said nav.

Third point, the Cranwell (IOT) end of the exchange disappeared long ago....moved to the AWC(det), same base though.

Lastly, similar to the OC17 mistake, England vs. the UK point....LoL!! Again the journalist....not the Welshman making the speech!
Cheers....back soon!

[MG]

Fbomber3, I was looking foward to meeting you the other side of the Atlantic around about now but, alas, no! I hope you enjoyed your time at USAFA just as much as we were anticipating our time there. All the best on 17.

[Fbomber3]

Thanks MG. I did what I could to keep it going, you were an ideal fit for the job.

Thanks also to those above who could see the real story! Best I call the new boss to explain......!

One last point re. working with the US military - flown with lots of USAF/USMC pilots over the years; they will always have my utmost respect.

[MG]

Thanks mate, too kind! I guess Coningsby will be a little flat after a few years in Colorado.

[Fbomber3]

Oh yes....just a little!