The desert gives up one of the RAF's finest

[NutLoose]

Fascinating thread been running over on Flypast originating from photos that have appeared on a Polish modelling site following the discovery of a downed RAF P-40 in remarkable condition, shades of Lady Be Good...

Photos here

WWW.KONRADUS.COM - LOTNICTWO - Znalezisko (http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php?f=13&i=7154&t=7154&filtr=0&page=1)

And also films of the wreck..

Crush Air plane 1 Movie.mp4 - YouTube

Crush Air plane 2 movie.mp4 - YouTube

I just hope it is rescued before being stripped.. It deserves a place in a museum.

[Load Toad]

Been runnin; here too: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/483077-p-40-found-sahara-desert.html

[Nadder]

Looks in remarkable condition given the time it has been out there. Lets hope it can be preserved for all to see without any treasure hunters getting their hands on it or is that too late?

[TEEEJ]

Images at following link

https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink

[Whenurhappy]

I really hope that the aircraft and the integrity of the site is preserved - there appears to be an absolute wealth of information about the aircraft, the pilot and its mission...and from teh photos, it shows how effective camoflague is after 70 years!

[Fareastdriver]

- there appears to be an absolute wealth of information about the aircraft, the pilot and its mission...

Where did you find that?

[TEEEJ]

Fareastdriver,

The data plate appears to be missing from the P-40, but it is a possibility that it is serial ET574.

See following from page 14 onwards.

P-40 from Sahara - Page 14 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=14)

On 28/6/42 ET574 Piloted by F/Sgt DCH Copping 785025 left 260 for a ferry flight to an RSU . The A/C flew with u/c locked down due to damage . An incorrect course was set and the A/C was thought to have crashed in the Desert due to fuel exhaustion. F/Sgt Copping is listed as missing on that date.

[Fareastdriver]

Thank you for that.

[TEEEJ]

No problem, Fareastdriver.

[ZeBedie]

Does it look possible that this P40 landed with its gear down?

[TBM-Legend]

tail wheel is down...

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Does it look possible that this P40 landed with its gear down?


Interesting point, but I would suggest yes. At the start of the second video it appears that the tailwheel is down and the tailwheel bay doors are in the 'gear down' position (unlikely they would have ended up there if the doors were closed on impact?). There are known cases of aircraft landing successfully in the open desert with gear down, so perhaps this aircraft did so too.

[GreenKnight121]

Right up until it hit that batch of rocks at the end of its run... then the main gear broke backwards, landing it on its belly.

[Fareastdriver]

One of the suggestions are that the aircraft was being ferried with the wheels down. However, if the aircraft was force landing with either battle damage or otherwise unservicable would he not have put the gear down to absorb the first shock. The scenery, if, as it was sixty years ago, might have looked more inviting for wheels than the belly.

[currawong]

Except that the wheels are about 150m behind the aircraft at the beginning of the debris field....

[SCAFITE]

Here is a good link to a Canadian Warbird site that flies a preserved P40 in the exact markings of the lost aircraft. They have enhanced one of the pictures toshow the markings HS-B and picture of a later HS-B in a 260 Sqn line up in1942. The RAF used Tomahawks, Warhawks and Kittyhawks all variations of the P40 (most US aircraft names were given bythe British)
Original Kittyhawk HS-B Discovered > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/357/language/en-CA/Original-Kittyhawk-HS-B-Discovered.aspx)

[Evanelpus]

The first video showed people trying very hard to open the canopy.

Surely, if the pilot survived, he wouldn't have returned to close the canopy. Pilot listed as missing which is strange, so his body not in the cockpit.

The sceptic in me is saying is this an elaborate hoax?

[NutLoose]

If you read the thread on Flypast you will find some interesting points, Pilots chute found opened by the nose of the aircraft , chute D ring on aft side of wing as if rigged up as sun shelter possibly, flares are outside the cockpit, the Radio is out of the aircraft and the cover has been bent back, the damaged battery is also outside the aircraft near the radio, so one surmises he may have been taking shelter whilst trying to get the radio working to send out an SOS.. also clock is missing, for navigation? you can see all of these on the high res picture link.

[phutbang]

I wander as to the state of the ammunition that you see been carried off? What are the chances of that working correctly after a 70 year baking and cooling cycle?

[ZeBedie]

Would it have been armed, for a gear down ferry flight?

[NutLoose]

One would have thought in a war zone one would want the best chance you could to defend yourself, gear down or not.

[NutLoose]

Update

Bruce,

The P40 was on a rocky escarpment. No sand dunes anywhere and literally in the middle of nowhere as you would expect.

Have also been given the OK to confirm that the Royal Air Force Museum are actively pursuing this P40 (which is probably not surprising for most of us) with the intention to recover and conserve. This is being discussed and dealt with at the highest levels.

Paul, have also been told it left LG09 and probably in the morning to take two damaged P40's to 53RFU and return with two replacements.

As for it being recovered, it was still there yesterday :-)

regards

Mark


Bruce

It is a two pronged approach.

The RAFM are very interested in the P40 due to its obvious historic significance to the RAF.

Due to its location, the MOD are looking at the information available as there is a high probability that there that there is a missing Commonwealth pilot, WHOEVER he is. (Just due to its very remote location).

The ID is critical and should be confirmed this week. Would love it to be sooner but will have to wait.

Mark


P-40 from Sahara - Page 21 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=21)

Looks like it may be coming home, hope they locate the missing pilot ( if he is ) and allow a family some closure.

[NutLoose]

Latest view, the vandals have found her :sad:

70 years it has sat there undisturbed....

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNzkevVbZL0s%26feature%3Dupl oademail&feature=uploademail&v=NzkevVbZL0s&gl=GB)

:(

[500N]

You tube link doesn't seem to work for me.


What have the bxxxxxd's done to her ?
You have to wonder about the mentality of some people that
they can't leave something like this alone and in one piece.

[NutLoose]

Try

Crush Air plane 3 movie.mp4 - aircraft cockpit - YouTube

[Rakshasa]

So after sitting undisturbed in the desert for 70 years, it gets smashed up and robbed by arseholes in 7 weeks. :ugh:

[Nadder]

With the added publicity of this in the DM and on the BBC today, lets hope this aircraft is recovered is soon as possible. Before it gets even more vandalised.

[NutLoose]

Yup, was in the Telegraph too, the hope is that the publicity pushes it, and also that the pilot is located and given a final resting place. So sad to see it getting vandalised, it is at its most precarious point in its 70 year life.

[Espasito]

Yep what a bunch of dick's to smash it up like that, I saw some early photos of her & she looked great, and now it had been wrecked. Even an arsehole should have thought---[ wait a min this thing could be special,] but no what do they do, throw something through the cockpit canopy & tear open every hatch they can find. once the strong desert winds get into her now she will be torn apart!!. It happens all to often all over the world. by the time it gets to being rescued it will be totaly ******. A huge shame to the Aero world.

Also it was clear to me it was the real deal right from the start & should have been to anyone who knows anything about anything!

[NutLoose]

Getting worse, latest news..

Thieves are already at work
With sadness and anger we get the news from our friends living in the oasis of Baharya, that in the only weekend 18/19 May 2012, arrived at the oasis three cars (not SUVs) with four persons each and that they have asked around to be taken to the P40.

Moreover they have paid an amount equal to three times the cost of a standard 4x4 excursions in the desert.

It seems that these "looters" have already taken steps to remove pieces and parts of the wreck.

We have been told that these "looters" had with them, the geographic coordinates of P40 bought from...... "someone".

We are convinced that Mr. ………. (self declared the discoverer of the wreck of the P40 who irresponsibly prematurely published the news of the find,
who has sold photos, movies and aircraft position, to the press agency is the one of the responsibles for the carnage that will be made of the wreck of the P40.



From

P-40 from Sahara - Page 33 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=33)

[Espasito]

Its a crying shame! Right from the begining you can see they had no intention of trying to keep it as it were discovered. In the very first moments of its discovery one of the idiot's throw a piece of the engine through the side of the cockpit. Makes you mad for sure. but what can we do? I have the coordinates !

[Mark in CA]

Ran across this news:

Pictures: World War II "Time Capsule" Fighter Found in Sahara (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/05/pictures/120524-world-war-ii-plane-egypt-desert-science-p-40-lost/)

[salad-dodger]

Blimey, not another one :rolleyes:

S-D

[Laarbruch72]

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8479/titanicsinks.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/207/titanicsinks.jpg/)

[FLYAIR10]

WWII fighter plane hailed the 'aviation equivalent of Tutankhamun's Tomb' found preserved in the Sahara - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9256879/WWII-fighter-plane-hailed-the-aviation-equivalent-of-Tutankhamuns-Tomb-found-preserved-in-the-Sahara.html)#

Hi,
The plane was apparently found in the southern part of Egypt,close to Sudan border. Is there anyone (maybe ex-RAF 260th sqdr)who has info on the exact planned route of the plane ,from which airbase to which airbase and timings of the flight?
Any update on the recovery of the plane?
Thks
Grtz:D

[MrBernoulli]

This aircraft has already been the subject of 4 other threads here on PPRuNe:

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/483077-p-40-found-sahara-desert.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/483378-desert-gives-up-one-rafs-finest.html

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/485162-american-made-curtiss-kittyhawk-p-40-found-desert.html

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/485110-sands-time.html

Talk about pointless duplication. :rolleyes:

[fallmonk]

Does anyone know if it was rescued or ripped apart by locals for scrap???

[NutLoose]

The damage has apparently stopped and the RAF museum is working on bringing it home, see

P-40 from Sahara - Page 36 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=36)

[Fareastdriver]

Any news on this event? The last I heard was that they had found some human remains about 8 k from the aircraft.

[NutLoose]

It's been recovered dismantled by the RAFM and is sitting in a container at a Egyptian museum, however it has gone a bit quiet because of soe embarrassment I believe... You can see it being disMantled here


As for the pilot, well the UK appears to have no stomach to see him buried if the remains are identified, haven't even bothered to visit them and that sickens me, seems he gave is life for this country and the country cannot do the right thing by him......


Qattara - Documenti e Testimonianze - Home Page (http://www.qattara.it/60-152%20arabic%20version.html)

Search for his remains

http://www.qattara.it/Kittyhawk_files/caption%201.pdf

[TEEEJ]

The P-40 has ended up in this state. Images at following link.

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126933-P-40-From-Sahara-Dennis-Copping-Merged-And-Reinstated&p=2424664#post2424664

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126933-P-40-From-Sahara-Dennis-Copping-Merged-And-Reinstated&p=2424671#post2424671

[Heathrow Harry]

For all the outrage it's not much different to restoring HMS Victory to pristine condition TBH

[Pontius Navigator]

FWIW I would rather see a restored aircraft than a box of bits. That said, at East Kirkby there is a crash recovered P51 I think. Set out as if AAIB it looks more like z Flight cutaway drawing.

Anyway, I had heard from an RAFM manager that the RAFM insisted on restoration to flying state before putting an aircraft on display. He thought that a waste of money. Don't know it that was true or still applies.

[Haraka]

I had heard from an RAFM manager that the RAFM insisted on restoration to flying state before putting an aircraft on display
Indeed that was a general policy years ago. Obviously there were exceptions
( e.g. the Halifax :) )

[MPN11]

That's a fine abortion of a paint scheme. A 10-yo Airfix kit builder would do better :(

[NutLoose]

It's worse than that, didn't the RAFM secure the recovery by exchanging a Spit? In their care for the recovery costs, it was a time capsule and now that has been lost by a totally poor and thoughtless treatment. The treatment of it reminds me of this....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/9491391/Elderly-woman-destroys-19th-century-fresco-with-DIY-restoration.html

[Davef68]

It's worse than that, didn't the RAFM secure the recovery by exchanging a Spit? In their care for the recovery costs, it was a time capsule and now that has been lost by a totally poor and thoughtless treatment. The treatment of it reminds me of this....

Elderly woman destroys 19th-century fresco with DIY restoration - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/9491391/Elderly-woman-destroys-19th-century-fresco-with-DIY-restoration.html)


Yes, it's no surprise the Director General of the RAFM was replaced shortly after. Sadly his replacement is a 'modern' CEO who seems intent on ripping the heart out the place by replacing all these pesky aeroplanes with modenr interactive exhibits

[Cazalet33]

Did anyone figure out the Human Factors aspect of the navigational blunder?

From Wadi Natrun to Merseh Matruh should have been a simple trip, navigationally. 289°T for 171nm. You're going along the Western edge of the Delta to the coast. Green then blue to the right of the aircraft, sand to the left.

https://s17.postimg.org/d0zjflfj3/289deg.jpg

The crash site is 70° to the left of that track at a range of 231nm from departure.

How could he make such a blunder? There's no mention of a sandstorm.

Sure, he might have forgotten to set the DI to the compass, or perhaps stowed a pistol on the compass, but the sight picture should have been as wrong to him as it was to his wingman.

Was he perhaps burned out from battle fatigue?

[CONSO]

FWIW - MANY MANY years ago - late 1950's- an oil exploration team found a b24 in the libyan ? dunes- near perfect condition - name as I recall was ' lady be good ". they eventually found a few traces of crew nearby who had laid out rocks into an arrow as they thouiht they were headed to coast

was a TV program about it.

Turns out during the time period, the germans had set up some phony RDF stations with the aim of confusing the planes returning from bombing raids, at night. In this case the plane had run out of gas, and most- All (?) the crew had bailed out at the last minute. As I recall, they found thermos with tea, and a radio that with minimum check and powered up still worked.

It may well be plane under discussion here suffered the same problem- following a phony RDF station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)

[Pontius Navigator]

Conso, Lady be Good certainly but it was a navigational error. The radio compass, a GCE IIRC, could give an ambiguous direction as it did not have a sense aerial. The navigator expected the beacon to be ahead when they had already passed it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Good_(aircraft)

[NutLoose]

Did anyone figure out the Human Factors aspect of the navigational blunder?

From Wadi Natrun to Merseh Matruh should have been a simple trip, navigationally. 289°T for 171nm. You're going along the Western edge of the Delta to the coast. Green then blue to the right of the aircraft, sand to the left.

https://s17.postimg.org/d0zjflfj3/289deg.jpg

The crash site is 70° to the left of that track at a range of 231nm from departure.

How could he make such a blunder? There's no mention of a sandstorm.

Sure, he might have forgotten to set the DI to the compass, or perhaps stowed a pistol on the compass, but the sight picture should have been as wrong to him as it was to his wingman.

Was he perhaps burned out from battle fatigue?

He wasn't alone and the wingman tried in vain to get him to correct course until having to break off or join him.. when landing they joked he would turn up on foot which he never did.. the aircraft was being ferried for repair I seem to remember.

[Fareastdriver]

Could have been a simple error such as setting the Direction Indicator 90 degrees out from the compass.

It was easy enough to do on the Provost T1 which is why we checked the DI against the runway on take off.

He could have flown at right angles to his course; realized his mistake too late and turned North for the coast.

[Martin the Martian]

For all the outrage it's not much different to restoring HMS Victory to pristine condition TBH

Sorry, HH, it's totally different.

If the aircraft was restored to an authentic finish it would not be so bad. There is nothing authentic about the colours, the finish or the markings. I shudder to think what these muppets would have done with the Victory.

[PDR1]

I'm afraid that's the state of the art in Egypt these days. It's simiar to the crude concrete "restorations" of many of the hyroglyph panels on the walls of the temples at Karnac and Habu, and Hatchetsup's temple near the valley of the kings (to name but three). They look like they were done by a primary-school craft class...

PDR

[MPN11]

The story makes today's Times ... A Royal Air Force fighter plane that survived 70 years in the Western Desert after crash-landing during the Second World War has been ruined by a “hideous” restoration, experts say.

Aviation historians accused Egyptian authorities of turning the perfectly preserved P-40 Kittyhawk into a “badly made Airfix model” before displaying it at a military museum at El Alamein.

Full story behind the paywall at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/second-world-war-raf-kittyhawk-ruined-by-el-alamein-restoration-j0h6w67wg

The comments are fairly scathing too. Apparently this airframe should have gone to the RAF Museum, and swapped with Spitfire PK664. However, the deal was never completed due to 'turbulence' in Egypt, and the whereabouts of PK664 is now apparently uncertain.

[Haraka]

Surely some transparency (even financial) is now beholden from those who did the deal involving PK664 ?
At the time of the debacle RAFM stated:

"In 2012 the museum undertook a joint project with Kennet Aviation to recover RAF Kittyhawk ET574 from the Egyptian desert in exchange for one of the Spitfires from the museum's collection.

"The aircraft has been successfully retrieved and for the time being remains in secure storage in Egypt.

"Given the uncertain political situation in Egypt however there is a possibility that Kittyhawk may never be returned to the United Kingdom."

The report values the grounded Spitfire at £200,000. ( My Italics) An airworthy Spitfire with some historic significance is generally valued at between £1 million to £3 million.
I just wonder how much this airframe will come quietly back on the market for ,when it finally resurfaces......

[Wander00]

Aah, so that is my question on History and Nostalgia answered comprehensively

[Haraka]

Aah, so that is my question on History and Nostalgia answered comprehensively
Perhaps to add that Kennet Aviation has been dissolved. (Distribution of assets etc.?)

[sycamore]

Haraka,any further info on your last,#58 ?

[Haraka]

Sycamore .Nothing to add. In summary, as I understand it, it would appear that the RAFM paid a U.K.organisation( seemingly Kennet) with a Spitfire (donated to them in good faith by MoD) to recover the P-40's remains from the desert to an initial place of safe keeping in Egypt, pending their return to U.K. This Kennet apparently did and so discharged their responsibility for that part of the operation. It would then appear, for whatever reasons, ( and without compensation) that the Egyptian authorities later appropriated the P-40 for their own purposes, the end result of which is now evident.
Basically the U.K. funded this sensitive recovery of an RAF aircraft flown by a deceased RAF Pilot, which the Egyptians then simply grabbed, gratis, for their own ends.

[NutLoose]

There is a fascinating response from a Sun journalist that has been looking into the story on here, it makes interesting reading

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126933-Flt-Sgt-Copping-s-P-40-from-the-Egyptian-desert/page82

[Bing]

It would then appear, for whatever reasons, ( and without compensation) that the Egyptian authorities later appropriated the P-40 for their own purposes, the end result of which is now evident.

To be fair we did a similar thing with their whole country and then used it to hold a war in, so I can see they might feel entitled to it.

[Heathrow Harry]

and don't mention the Rosetta Stone sitting in the British Museum................

[NutLoose]

And let's not forget Cleopatra’s Needle.

[Blacksheep]

The aircraft itself is just a relic, the human remains are most likely those of Flt. Sgt. Copping and have been treated in a way that reflects no credit upon Egypt. The Egyptian Government should be ashamed of themselves - but what else can one expect from such a disfunctional and corrupt government?