What makes a good Flying Club Secretary?

[Grob Queen]

Hi All,
I am about to take over the role of Club Sec, which I really want to do. My passion for flying and for helping the club in any way I can is known to other members and committee members, but I was just wondering, from any of you who are/have been Club secs, what made you a good one? What are the "Gotchas"?

From those club members here, what drives you mad about your club sec? What would you like to improve?

Not knowing the aviation world from a flying perspective that well, I would be interested in any input to avoid me putting my well meaning but slightly misguided foot in it!! :ouch:

Many thanks in advance
GQ

[robin]

Take my advice. Don't do it.

If you go in with optimism, a desire to help and a love of aviation you are on a loser. Far better to take up the role in a cool-headed manner with a clear idea of how you will take the club on.

Never expect to be liked or respected as every choice you make will upset one faction or another. Keep to your own principles in the face of many challenges - look at the poem IF for guidance. Never align youself with one faction or another as you will need to represent all the club members..

Finally plan your exit in advance and choose the time and the manner of your exit.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi GQ,

To be a good club secretary, you need to be meticulous and deal with club business promptly and thoroughly at all times. You also need to know the answer instantly when someone asks a question regarding some matter for which you are responsible. You need to ensure there is always a written record on file to show how you dealt with something when a question about it arises perhaps two or three years down the line.

I would not dissuade you from becoming club secretary, but I would caution you to consider carefully whether to take the job on. Find out who is on the management committee and decide whether you are going to be happy working with those personalities. Find out why the previous secretary resigned (or was sacked). Try to spend some time with the previous secretary and learn what you can about his/her experience with the job. Ideally, make a friend of the previous secretary, because he/she probably knows where all the corpses are burried.

There is upside and downside to being the club secretary. The upside is that you get to know, and be known by, everybody. That has its advantages. You will make friends with people whom otherwise it might have taken years to meet. On the downside, any mistakes you make are likely to be shouted from the rooftops. Certainly, from time to time you will cross swords with one or two as there are always some who don't follow club rules in some way and have to be confronted.

If it should go sour on you, don't be afraid to resign, even if this leaves the managment committee in schtuk. They're the managers; it is their job to sort out the mess. Don't keep the job if it has become the bain of your existence.

Good luck Kid,

BP.

[Cows getting bigger]

The role could be a poisoned chalice. If there are skeletons in the cupboard you will find them and you may well then take shared ownership. Consider the structure of the club (is it a limited company holding the associated protection for Directors?) and make sure you do your own due diligence before accepting anything. At very least, check the Articles of Association. If you sign on the dotted line, someone has an H&S issue the next day and you then find that the public/employer liability insurance hasn't been renewed........ :ouch:

On the other hand, if the club is well run/supported, the role will be fascinating. As others have said, be very wary of taking sides, be prompt with all enquiries and enjoy. Have an escape plan and don't let it take control of your life.

One last thing, it isn't the worst job; that lies with Treasurer. :)

[18greens]

There's some very good advice here. I think you should do it because you will learn so much and what doesn't kill you makes you strong.

The fact is the club needs a secretary and that individual needs to be strong and fair for the benefit of the club as a whole ( and not pander to individual needs).

I would manage it as a benign dictatorship, don't even think about democracy. Also don't allow it to take over your life. Allot time to deal with stuff and minute everything decided. And as BP said don't be afraid to resign.

You could take inspiration from that line - "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm"

If you think this is all a bit much do the job for a year then re-read this and see what you think then.

I'm sure you will enjoy the experience. Good luck

[BabyBear]

At the risk of being shot down in flames with the fingers of blame duly pointing in my direction I will reveal that following much badgering I agreed to becoming a Committee Member. It didn't take long to realise the Club's best interests was not the main motivation for all members and that certain Committee Members were outwith their capabilities.

It took me 3 meetings to decide I could not be associated with the decisions, by association, that were being made.

BB

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi GQ,

Cows Getting Bigger makes a good point when he says,

'If there are skeletons in the cupboard you will find them and you may well then take shared ownership'.

This is why it is worth speaking to your predescessor in post. If there are skeletons, then it is better to find out where they are at the outset, rather than to fall over them later. As he says, you could otherwise acquire shared ownership.

The way to deal with skeletons is to report them to the management committee in writing and as soon as you become aware of them. Definitely find all of them and bring them out into the open within your first year in post. That will considerably reduce the likelihood that you will become saddled with part ownership.

BP.

[WestWind1950]

it all depends on the club set-up. Is it more like a commercial school is or more just a "weekend" type of club?

I was 9 years the treasurer of a"weekend" type club and only resigned because I moved too far away to do my job properly. If the job was so bad, I would not have done it so long, believe me. There were a few times when I was on the verge of resigning, but got talked out of doing so. And it had more to do with working with "macho" fly boys then the job itself. :oh: I was also the secretary for a flight school for a couple of years.

A secretary is responsible for all the paper work and correspondence. You will be responsible for keeping lists of the members in order. You may be responsible for any press work, keeping the minutes at meetings. As in ANY business, you may end up doing lots of odd jobs that the "guys" don't like doing (yes, emancipation isn't everywhere, yet). You need to make it a point that, as a club, you all need to work TOGETHER as a team!!

You may be asked to organise the school/student records and helping arrange schedules. Together with the head instructor, you will be the connection between the school and the CAA.

If you don't have regular office hours, arrange at least one night/day a week when you are available for members to visit. Knowing you are there and available to answer their questions or help them with their paperwork or for informing possible new members about the club is a good thing. I did that with the school secretary job and worked VERY well.

Go ahead and do it. A woman on the board is often a good thing... it makes the guys behave (usually)! :E

Make sure your duties are layed out in the clubs by-laws.

I say, go for it! :ok:

[Grob Queen]

Many thanks for all your advice so far everyone; some really helpful insights there. We are a "weekend type" club not a school and yes....I have already had a taste of how political it can be :(

From the point of view of it taking over ones life, I did think twice about this as I have that PPL study to do and a full time job! But there are issues that I want to have a say in...and being on the committee is the only way to do it.

I will have a chat with the outgoing Sec though...sounds like I may only want to do it for a year..... :)

[abgd]

Whilst understanding the concerns of people who advise you against this, clubs need people to do the heavy lifting, and I for one am grateful to all those who do so - provided they carry out their duties fairly and for the right reasons.

I'm not sure that I see the point of taking on the responsibility then getting out after just a year though - you'd be moving on just as you start to get to grips with the job.

[Katamarino]

Short skirt?

[Grob Queen]

Katamarino

...the Club members have never seen me in a skirt...

.....let alone a short one ;) ;)

[peterh337]

I wondered how long it would take somebody to drop in the right answer ;)

(a short skirt also requires fairly good legs though... although nowadays anything seems to be acceptable :E )

[Jan Olieslagers]

With a skirt or without*, I can't help feeling a bit disappointed that you took the traditionally typically feminine job of a secretary, confirming all the old-style traditions. Though I must admit private flying is a men-only environment to such a degree that even this cliche cannot often be kept up.

As for a short skirt also requires fairly good legs though you can go tell the average male US'an! I have never crossed the pond, and am not in a hurry either, but judging from photography from Oshkosh and the like Grob Queen could hardly look worse, even if she tried to.

Now back to seriousness: being a secretary in any organisation takes a good deal of dreary administrative work, and it must be done meticulously. It might well take you a year to gain an insight in the full contents of the job, 't would be a pity to leave so soon. Also I think you can never judge if the role really fits you in just one year. But you are surely right to prefer flying over working (because working is what it is!) , especially if you already have a full-time job.

Joining the board of a flying club, in whatever function, is certainly a solid risk - recreational aviators being a very peculiar subspecies of mankind. The warning for unexpected surprises can't be overstressed.
(in my own club, the complete board have resigned, and only a few are candidates for the upcoming election)

And don't forget you will get very few words of appreciation, if any. But whatever you do or even say wrong in any person's appreciation will be rubbed into you ad nauseam.

My advice would be: either go for it, wholeheartedly, for a full term, or keep out.

*meaning "with trousers" of course, all you dirtyminds!!!

[Grob Queen]

Sorry chaps, perhaps I should have made myself clear for those of you who think i'm a "Miss Monneypenny" type (if only there were members like 007 in the club...:E)..PBoyall is totally correct, the Club Sec is, in our club like a company sec as we are a Limited company and part of the appointment is to be one of the directors.

Now I am no businesswoman and my maths is horrendous, so I hope that the treasurer does indeed deal with all the figures!

To answer you Jan, our Club, being Air Force has a less than usual set up shall we say, which leaves very few posts for civvies to be either voted or instated. Therefore, as I want a voice on the committee, there are very few options and being "only" a student pilot doesn't help either! :ugh:

Yes, I shall go for it for undoubtedly more than one year, following the advice here, it would be a shame to resign after only a year in post.


you can go tell the average male US'an! I have never crossed the pond, and am not in a hurry either, but judging from photography from Oshkosh and the like Grob Queen could hardly look worse, even if she tried to.

Well, lets just say, I'm not Kate Middleton or Ola Jordan...but neither am I Dawn French!! ;)

[Grob Queen]

Well, i've gone for it, have signed on the dotted line and am now Club Secretary and a director of the company. I already have some ideas, and am really looking forward to getting stuck in and trying to make a difference for the good of the club.

Idealised I hear some of you say, maybe, but at least I can try!
I have spoken to the previous Sec and there are no skeletons and no loose ends.

So many tans agian for your advice...i'm sure it will all come in handy at some point :)

[abgd]

Congratulations. I hope it goes well, and I'm sure there'll be some good advice from pprune if you ever need it.

[rateone]

Congratulations GQ

If you are now a Company Director make sure you read and fully understand the Articles of Association of the company and other legal documentation associated with the company. As Secretary you will be responsible for ensuring the approporiate paperwork is correct for the type of company you have taken on.

Also you should ensure that the directors have D&O Insurance. If not and/or there is resistance to purchasing such insurance walk away now. Under UK Legislation company directors can be held personally liable for a range of issues such as; health and safety, data protection, maintaining satisfactory accounts, negligence, etc. You need to make sure you are protected.

Rateone

[Grob Queen]

Thanks ABGd and Rateone,

I have the Articles of Association file, so will certainly have a read of that. Not sure about the insurance for Directors - although I do know that the Company has it written down that the directors are only liable to pay £1 if the company were to fold. I need to talk to Companies House so will properly look at the paperwork before I do so that I can ask any questions when I speak to them!

I've already thrown out all the old Pooleys....

[peterh337]

although I do know that the Company has it written down that the directors are only liable to pay £1 if the company were to foldThat wouldn't give you any protection.

If you are a formal Director then you do have to be careful because you can be held personally liable for the actions of other Directors - even if you have no influence over them or even know of their actions.

As a Company Secretary only you should not be liable for anything of great significance - provided the accounts etc are filed on time, etc.

In 1978 I was offered a directorship by two crooks who had got me to do some electronics design work for them but they never had the money to pay me. Me being just 21 I thought this was a gift from heaven - I mean how many 21 year olds have a seat on the Board of a Company :)

This led to many very fraught experiences. but being young and stupid (and loyal) I stuck in there for 13 years, until they finally kicked me out because I wanted to put a stop to some excessive and uncontrolled overseas spending.

One should never be a Director of a company where one has little or no control of what goes on. If one sees stuff going on which could sink the business (leaving debts around, etc) then one has to resort to writing memos (to create a written record) to the others, which is obviously plain stupid when you could just discuss it face to face.

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

Well done for stepping up and taking on the responsibility. It can be difficult to find people who are prepared to "put something back" and get involved in the running of clubs, so you will make a difference - even if you don't get a lot of thanks directly for it.

The advice on this thread has made you aware of the pitfalls, but I know from my own time serving on various (non flying) voluntary committees that you can build up some cameraderie and really make a difference. The Secretary is the anchor of a good club, and I'm sure that coming in with a fresh view and some enthusiasm will help.

Good luck

[robin]

but I know from my own time serving on various (non flying) voluntary committees that you can build up some cameraderie and really make a difference. The Secretary is the anchor of a good club, and I'm sure that coming in with a fresh view and some enthusiasm will help.

My experience is somewhat different. Enthusiasm soon wanes as you come up against the inertia, apathy and 'hostile action' of others. Camaraderie breaks down as egos are always involved.

My strong advice is to remember the words of Kipling's 'If' - especially these lines

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

Cynical? Moi? :ugh:

[rateone]

Hi GC


I do know that the Company has it written down that the directors are only
liable to pay £1 if the company were to fold.


The issue isn't the liability in case of bancruptcy, that's what the "Limited" does in the company name.

This is about the personal liability carried by the Directors of a company. Directors can be held joint and severally liable for the actions of the company. In other words you are liable for your own actions and, jointly, those of your fellow directors. So if there is an incident with a club aircraft and someone is injured or worse then there may be a civil case or the crown may decide to prosecute the company. In that situation you may have a great defence case but who will pay the legal bill? That's what the D&O insurance does. It doesn't protect from fraud (obvious) or wilful misconduct (e.g.knowing an a/c was u/s but still allowing it to be flown)- the company is expected to act as a reasonable and prudent operator - but it does provide a safety net for unforseen events.

Rateone

[abgd]

Cynical? Moi? :ugh:

It'll surely depend on the nature of the club. Some will be very rewarding; others will be a complete heartsink. I'm not in a position to comment on where the majority lie.

[Grob Queen]

I have now had a chance to go through some of the paperwork. I have not yet read the Articles of association, but reading the Constitution, it would seem that the £1 liability for Directors is a cert but that no other financial implications are obvious.

So, Peter and rateone, are you saying that even if it were not my fault, I would be possibly held to account for negligence on another director's part? I will ask the others about this D&O insurance - they must have come across it.

I'm slowly beginning to realise it is a huge job, but yes, I guess it does depend on ones club, and I think because my club is a friendly one, any disagreements in the committee room (aka our crew room no doubt) will stay inside the committee room and not affect our flying or socials.

I'm sure there'll be some good advice from pprune if you ever need it. I may just take you up on that abgd! ;)

And as a thread drift to my own thread...my Instructor has said that he thinks i could get my PPL in about 6 months from now.....:eek: :\

[robin]

So, Peter and rateone, are you saying that even if it were not my fault, I would be possibly held to account for negligence on another director's part? I will ask the others about this D&O insurance - they must have come across it.

In one of the clubs I was the Treasurer for, I reported that there were issues we needed to address or the club would go under. Instantly half the committee resigned.

The reason?

They were business folk and could not be associated as a director with an organisation that was going bust.

As a Director you are jointly and severally liable for the actions of the other directors. You might be able to prove that you were in the clear and others were liable, but that is not an easy or cheap thing to do,

When you become an officer of the club, you need to watch your back.

[peterh337]

So, Peter and rateone, are you saying that even if it were not my fault, I would be possibly held to account for negligence on another director's part?

Yes.

It is something to be aware of in GA where there are a lot more crooks and shysters and conmen than in business generally (I've been in business since 1978).

[rateone]

So, Peter and rateone, are you saying that even if it were not my fault, I
would be possibly held to account for negligence on another director's part? I
will ask the others about this D&O insurance - they must have come across
it


I think Peter and Robin have beaten me to it on this one but in short, yes.

The point here is that, being a Limited Company, your flying club has to abide by the rules that govern all Limited Comanies, large and small. That means that the club officers have full legal responsibility for the business. It wouldn't surprise me if the company does not have D&O as it costs money and most businesses associated with the lighter end of aviation (and some at the heavier end for that matter) are not especially solvent so another cost is not something that would be received with open arms. Also, there are some rogues out there with a reputation for ducking and diving. This might not be the case at your club but you need to be careful as you have legal responsibilities and you could be left carrying the can.

A couple of recent examples - unrelated to flying, but to illustrate a point.

1. Anna Ryder Richardson and her husband have been prosecuted after two people were seriously injured by a falling tree branch on their property
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article3396488.ece

2. Can't find the reference just now but the operator of Warwick Castle recently was fined a lot of money after a visitor fell from a bridge into the moat despite the defence that over 2 million people had visited the site and no one had fallen before.

Unfortunately, this is a symptom of our society. We have to protect against what may be criminal negligence but the consequence is that fewer people will volunteer to become officers of flying clubs, rugby clubs and the like because the personal risk is too great without any legal protection/insurance, which is a great shame.