Anybody going to Friedrichshafen AERO 2012?

[peterh337]

I plan to, subject to wx which currently looks 50/50.

It's good for meeting up with a load of pilots from around Europe, and seeing what hasn't changed in GA :)

Not too happy with their parking arrangements. 2x we got concrete but last year we got poor grass and it took 3 of us to push the plane; I would not risk a prop strike.

[silverknapper]

Same here, 50/50 depending on work. Certainly my favourite show. Though as you say no doubt identical to last year!

[stickandrudderman]

I'd like to be going but I simply haven't got time.
If someone wants to check out Advanced Flight Systems and report back I'd be obliged!

[peterh337]

I wonder how many are going. The wx looks pretty "interesting". On the current data it is unflyable; the only final decision will be doable on the morning.

But getting stuck at EDNY (the return trip wx looks no better) is a lousy option, as there are no direct flights anymore - that I can see.

The "bonus" will be if the marshallers make one park on nice boggy grass ...

[silverknapper]

I'm out of it I'm afraid. Hope anyone who goes has a great time.

[peterh337]

Some brief observations...

As always, the best value is in meeting up with specific people, old friends from far away, etc. The exhibits are mostly same as the previous year :)

Turnout (crowds) significantly smaller than last year which was in turn significantly smaller than the year before... etc.

The exhibitors tended to say this was because the show is every year instead of every two, which makes it harder for visitors to find something new, and doubles the already very high cost for the exhibitors and many don't bother to turn up every year. The event seems to have been milked by the organisers just a bit too much.

Which doesn't stop the arrogant managers of the fly-in side of it imposing a ludicrous slot system whereby no IFR slots were available (for the apparently mandatory online booking) below 1600kg, but in reality ATC disregards this on the day and you can just fly in on an "I" flight plan and get the usual ILS etc. It looks like the airport doesn't like the show at all and just regards it as hassle...

I saw the usual arrogance from some exhibitors too e.g. Avidyne whose man takes phone calls while talking to you about some $20,000 avionics upgrade. Not something I would do in my business... these people must find money growing on trees.

A really interesting new aircraft was this (http://www.pipistrel.si/plane/panthera/overview). I do hope that these very clever people break the mould and manage to drag this into certification. It ticks all the boxes for a decent tourer: a proven engine (IO-390), 4 seats, retractable gear with trailing links, TAS pushing 200kt (which I believe is possible in this case). The prototype was very well finished and is a real flying aircraft. They project 400k+ euros for a certified version with IFR avionics (GTN650+750+G500) which is well below anything from e.g. Cirrus.

I finally bought the Mountain High O2D2 demand regulator. Due to the widespread atmospheric instability all over the place we flew most of the way there and back at FL180-FL200 and my existing Precise Oxygen demand regs don't cut the mustard at those levels. The O2D2 is amazing, easily doing 96% blood o2 at FL200 with a cannula, and 99% (effectively the sea level figure for a normal fit nonsmoker) with the mask. A flight test (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/oxygen2/index.html) I did a while ago with a friend validated this performance advantage (and drew some vile feedback from Precise's marketing manager at the time :E ) but it took me a while to get around to spending the $800 :)

I in fact flew into Stuttgart EDDS because the forecasts indicated bad wx at EDNY (for the return trip too) but this turned out to be mostly bollox. EDDS means a long drive but is well organised (if pricey) without any grass parking which they try to force onto everybody "light" at EDNY unless they absolutely refuse. EDNY used to be mayhem to fly into in the past but there is so much less traffic these days.

[achimha]

Turnout (crowds) significantly smaller than last year which was in turn significantly smaller than the year before... etc.

On the other hand, several exhibitors told me that they were seeing a lot more qualified interest than in the years before.

Also a surprisingly large number of exhibitors from the US, probably surprised that Europe's largest GA fair has the size of a typical small-town aviation show :)

My favorite was the UK CAA booth -- they came to inform people about the London 2012 restrictions. Their budget must be massive...

The event seems to have been milked by the organisers just a bit too much.

One exhibitor with a relatively small booth told me total cost (including travel from Germany) was around € 40,000 which is a lot for most outfits. Some told me last year they would not exhibit this year due to cost but then they did show up. Reason was that they all feared not showing up would send a negative message about their financial health.

Which doesn't stop the arrogant managers of the fly-in side of it imposing a ludicrous slot system whereby no IFR slots were available (for the apparently mandatory online booking) below 1600kg, but in reality ATC disregards this on the day and you can just fly in on an "I" flight plan and get the usual ILS etc.

They're planning for CAVOK all week and everybody and his cousin flying in. This year the weather forecast was terrible but the actual weather much better so they ended up having a lot less traffic than last year. I agree that the 1600kg limitation is ridiculous but as you said, the instrument approaches are organized by enroute ATC and it wasn't a problem this year (neither was canceling IFR and performing a VFR approach).

It looks like the airport doesn't like the show at all and just regards it as hassle...

I don't think that statement is justified. Consider the separation minimums for IFR and think of a C172 doing IFR with 65kt on the 5NM final + a 5NM straight missed approach. One IFR approach blocks a lot of VFR arrivals and given that EDNY has a control zone, they can't work around this. If it was setup with an airspace F (remember, no IFR in G/E in Germany), it would be easy because IFR traffic would have to do see and avoid.

I finally bought the Mountain High O2D2 demand regulator.

Congrats, I fully agree with your observations. It's by far the best system out there. I tried flying at FL200 for an hour using the cannula and I did not notice any unusual fatigue. I also took a closer look at Oxyfly (http://www.oxyfly.com/). It's a compact oxygen enriching device selling for about € 10,000. A great technical solution but too large to fit in a 4-seater.

I in fact flew into Stuttgart EDDS because the forecasts indicated bad wx at EDNY (for the return trip too) but this turned out to be mostly bollox.

Ah, you should have posted before... Why didn't you fly to Memmingen EDJA, that is much closer and fully equipped? Also even though the slots were gone quickly, once people realized the general wx, the slots quickly become available again. In fact, the weather was VMC all the time. Also, ATC has no issue with you changing destination enroute, I've done that several times.

[S-Works]

I finally bought the Mountain High O2D2 demand regulator. Due to the widespread atmospheric instability all over the place we flew most of the way there and back at FL180-FL200 and my existing Precise Oxygen demand regs don't cut the mustard at those levels.

Priceless. :ok:

[peterh337]

One exhibitor with a relatively small booth told me total cost (including travel from Germany) was around € 40,000 which is a lot for most outfits. Some told me last year they would not exhibit this year due to cost but then they did show up. Reason was that they all feared not showing up would send a negative message about their financial health.

40k is a huge amount. But it is a bit like Cebit - if you are "somebody" you have to be there :)

They're planning for CAVOK all week and everybody and his cousin flying in. This year the weather forecast was terrible but the actual weather much better so they ended up having a lot less traffic than last year. I agree that the 1600kg limitation is ridiculous but as you said, the instrument approaches are organized by enroute ATC and it wasn't a problem this year (neither was canceling IFR and performing a VFR approach).

The problem is that only the locals know this... you would never work it out from their website etc which is absolute on the rules.

Another thing is that the slots are basically meaningless. You can turn up anytime.

Congrats, I fully agree with your observations. It's by far the best system out there. I tried flying at FL200 for an hour using the cannula and I did not notice any unusual fatigue. I also took a closer look at Oxyfly (http://www.oxyfly.com/). It's a compact oxygen enriching device selling for about € 10,000. A great technical solution but too large to fit in a 4-seater.

I saw that - very pricey though and not exactly light or compact. Considering I now refill my two "48 cu ft" carbon/kevlar cylinders only about once a year...

Why didn't you fly to Memmingen EDJA, that is much closer and fully equipped?

I think a friend (who was renting the car) suggested EDDS... Also the close-in wx forecast for EDNY was bad.

I think there are many strategies for going to EDNY with minimal cost+hassle. One of the best is to use a hotel say 30km away and rent a car :) Another must be to use a different airport (particularly one which has assured hard surface parking) and hire the car there.

[achimha]

The problem is that only the locals know this... you would never work it out from their website etc which is absolute on the rules.

Posting in advance here would get you this local knowledge :)

I think a friend (who was renting the car) suggested EDDS... Also the close-in wx forecast for EDNY was bad.

In case you didn't know: you can get thorough enroute weather information by calling FIS on your 2nd radio. The IFR controllers usually don't have the time or equipment but the FIS controllers have full access to all weather data and they can tell you everything about where fronts are, how fast they're moving, radar pics, etc. Especially during IMC or marginal VMC, they have plenty of time to help you. Ryan Air makes regular use of this, I've heard them many times block the FIS frequency for 5 minutes asking all kinds of European METARs and TAFs. I guess all the other airlines have satellite downlinks.

If specified as an alternate, you don't need a slot for EDDS and the like. That's an easier way to get to those airports :)

[peterh337]

A brief report.
(http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/edny3/index.html)

[thborchert]

Ah, the usual "glass half full" versus "glass half empty" reports. It's all in your mind...

Guys, next time please come by our booth, we have decent coffee.

Peter has got it exactly right: the airport management couldn't care less about the AERO - and it shows. Their fee structure is ridiculous. Also, the control tower, operated under contract by Austrocontrol gets completely overwhelmed by more than three aircraft of any type. Since pilots usually put the blame on AERO, not the airport, I'd suggest writing to the mayor of Friedrichshafen, who serves on the boards of both the airport and the company running the show. [email protected]
This year, they solved the "soft grass problem" by putting gravel onto the grass parking surface (jeeze!). Large gravel, admittedly, but still, not a good idea. It is overflow car parking for the Tuning World shows two weeks later...

FWIW, the ridiculous and unsafe IFR limit of 1600 kg is instituted by DFS, the German air traffic control. All "excuses" like the one made in this thread are, I'm afraid, rather sorry in nature. Who is flying an ILS at 65? If there is IMC, the amount of traffic will be absolutely manageable. A visit to any decent size US airfield will show how it is done. A non-issue.

As for the show, for one thing, 40k for a small booth is simply not true. 4k is more like it, unless you have special heavy exhibits or some such. Don't believe everything they tell you...

I don't think it is fair to say there was nothing new. The three four-seaters growing out of microlight/LSA manufacturers and their progress was very interesting:
- Tecnam could have flown in their prototype of the Twenty Ten, if not for weather.
- Pipistrel did NOT bring a flying aircraft, but rather a prototype that will fly RSN, they say. Nevertheless, amazing progress from the scale model of last year. If they can pull off certification, at the promised price, in the promised timeframe (2015), with the promised performance - that would be amazing. Stunning, really.
- Flight Design moved from an exterior mock-up to an interior mock-up. Disappointing, IMHO.

Diamond presented the DA52 twin. Continental showed the (in my mind) only promising diesel of higher power (230 hp), with certification scheduled for this year (yes, that's the old sma developed further by Continental). Price Induction's DGEN turbofan is really interesting. Then there was the "small" stuff: Airbox's iPad app looks great. So do the new Cirrus paint schemes. And the new Rotax 912 iS, shown at a surprising number of airframe manufacturer's booths.

An interesting show, but, as mentioned, much slower than previous ones. For one thing, I'm not sure I buy the "more qualified visitors" argument. For another, I'm firmly on Dale Klapmeier's side, who told me: "This is a show with great potential - but where are the new people? Where are the ones that are not pilots yet, that we haven't spoken to already?" IMHO, show management does a lot to discourage them from coming.

That's how I saw it. Should you be interested to see more about two aspects of the show involving yours truly, see here:

- Avweb (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/exclusivevids/ExclusiveVideo_Aero2012_EngineTechnology_206562-1.html)
- Flitelevel TV (http://www.flitelevel.tv/episode/QuoVadisGA-DA)

Thomas
fliegermagazin

[peterh337]

The weather would have dramatically reduced the GA fly-in visitor numbers. What one doesn't know is how many just drive there, or take an airline. With Ryanair not flying there anymore...

What EDNY ATC could have done was to remove the stupid 1600kg IFR minimum and Notam that accordingly, say 2 days ahead once it became overwhelmingly obvious that the weather would hardly be VFR. These days, one can get weather on the internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet).

Ah, the usual "glass half full" versus "glass half empty" reports. It's all in your mind...Well done Thomas for expanding your "so and so is glass half empty" horizon beyond socata.org :) :ok: They will miss you there :)

[thborchert]

Peter,

Apologies! I tried to be funny, it appears I wasn't. No harm meant.

They do miss me there, but for different reasons...

[peterh337]

I thought you were still on there. I got kicked out in 2008 so you have outlasted me by 4 years :) Which amazes me.

Anyway I firmly believe that the best way to fly (proper trips I mean) is to take care of all the crap and then the trip is nice and uneventful.

Not everybody agrees with this (for various reasons; could be me criticising their country, or some pilots just like to fly and see where it takes them) and this is why I come under attacks from certain quarters for being a "glass half empty" pilot.

[thborchert]

I am still there, but sometimes get in trouble when I bring up the Cirrus, which I fly more and more often - or if I prolong discussions about it by injecting some facts. :O