Citation X Dubai to London

[ME Pilot]

For all of you Citation X drivers,

Can you please let me know if you can fly from Dubai to London with 4-5 pax plus luggage and IFR reserves? If the answer is yes, can you also do this mission year round with winter head winds? Can you do this at max cruise speed as well?

Any insight from an operational side as far as aircraft capability would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[NZ X man]

During the severe winter months with heavy jet stream, possibly not, but pulling the aircraft back to .82 gives fairly good range would probably help.

[LGW Vulture]

I don´t think you need to ask Citation X drivers only that question. You can do DXB London every day of the year with even the strongest headwinds no problem. Just make sure you plan a fuel stop somewhere on route.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[x933]

Hawkers and Sovereigns won't do it non stop so at a guess the ten won't do it either.

Needs a CL30, HA4T or G200 or larger to do it non stop.

[His dudeness]

Had to stop Dubai-Farnborough in a CL300. DXB-FAB is 3432nm ovhd-ovhd...

Not C680/750 nor CL300 country, especially not with reserves usually needed in the London TMA cause of the way too early descent you get there. Always.

[ME Pilot]

Thanks all for the responses. I was able to get a hold of some operators and they ran flight plans with some actual routing that they have experienced and DXB-LCY was 3120nm, 7 hours of flight time and 11,500 lbs of fuel burn and the jet only holds 13000lbs total. This does not leave any margin for IFR reserves nor an alternate so it looks like the CX would not be a good machine for this mission. I don't think that the G200 and CL 300 would be good options either since the mission requires non stop capability. So it looks like the CL 604, GIV/GIVSP, and Falcon 900B or better will have to be the target aircraft.

Thanks again for all of your repsonses.

[cldrvr]

For that route to consistently do it non stop you are looking at the Falcon 2000 (EX only), 900 (all models), G300 and up, G IV/IVSP/V, CL 604/5 (the 601 can't do it with a bit of wind), none of the Hawker/Cessna/Lear products.

[falconeasydriver]

Running the plan is the easy bit, but the reality is you need to contact operators that actually do this on a regular basis. I used operate a 900 from both AUH and DXB to LCY and FAB on a fairly regular basis and I can tell you that you need to add at least 5% to the burn figures to get a realistic burn going into the London TMA.

[mutt]

3120 sounds like nautical ground miles, not air miles, we routinely experience 150 kt headwinds on that route during winter, especially crossing Saudi Arabia and Eqypt, so if you are looking for an all-year-round flight, you have to define your payload.

GIV wont do it, GIV-SP depending on payload, G5........ well you just went from a $10m aircraft to $30m....... Once you get into that sort of money, you might as well look at the 737-300 and 500's that are on the market.

Mutt

[FlyTCI]

Have done this route several times in the X and we always made a fuel stop in either Larnaca or Istanbul, both ways summer and winter. Time wise it will probably be a wash if you go max speed with a (quick) fuel stop versus pulling back to .82. Don't have time to check the numbers so it's just an educated guess.

If you plan on basing a X in Dubai I suggest you rethink. It does not have the proper range nor are the pacs good enough to be a good fit down there.

[PukinDog]

3120 sounds like nautical ground miles, not air miles, we routinely experience 150 kt headwinds on that route during winter, especially crossing Saudi Arabia and Eqypt, so if you are looking for an all-year-round flight, you have to define your payload.

GIV wont do it, GIV-SP depending on payload, G5........ well you just went from a $10m aircraft to $30m....... Once you get into that sort of money, you might as well look at the 737-300 and 500's that are on the market.

Mutt

He defined his payload at 4/5 pax with luggage and reserves. A topped-off GlV/GlV-SP/-450 will do that every day of the week year 'round on that route.

737-300,500?...that's a guaranteed fuel stop right there, and why would anyone want to fly that low and slow? As you very well know, the max ceiling of FL370 in that part of the world still has you ISA + a million and barely out of the haze, let alone the bumps (usually need 410+ for that) or wx down the road. Loaded they'll be sentenced to somewhere in the low to mid 30s for a couple thousand miles. Yes, the pax will have a lot more room in the cabin...to vomit. Why do you want them to vomit?

[mutt]

Why do you want them to vomit? They will have lots of room to vomit...... Our rule of thumb for haze layer is half ground temperature x1000, so generally its in the low 20's, so for the majority of the time, you will be ok above this, obviously there are days when its great to climb straight to 410....

As for the older 737, I would attempt to add 1-2 internal tanks to increase range.

Mutt

[Guptar]

150kts on the nose heading to the west over the middle east..............what sort of altitudes is that sort of wind found at.

Now according to my met book, winds should reduce significantly above the tropopause.

So generally what altitude is the tropopause in that region and is the book correct about the wind reducing above it.

I would have thought getting up around FL470 would have got you above the worst of the headwind.

When the x was launched many years ago, i was quite surprised that it was only given a range of around 2800nm in the early models, later bumped up to around 3000 in later versions.

I'm even more surprised that with the new Ten, Cessns havent given it an extra 1500lbs of fuel, would be a useful increase in range for trips that require an alternate or holding fuel.

[Deep and fast]

Have done it in a legacy 650 with the winter winds but it is still squeaky bum tight on fuel.

D and F :8

[NuName]

I've given up trying in a Falcon 900B, now always plan a fuel stop, quicker and more fun and less grey hair.

[davidjh]

No difference between GIV and GIV-SP in terms of fuel qty, flow etc. With same payload they will fly the same distance (all things being equal).

[mutt]

[img]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7206/6993032408_6249f474aa_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pprunemutt/6993032408/)

@Guptar, this is for today, look at the winds and look at the tropopause height.

@davidjh, true, however the MTOW is higher in the GIV-SP, so you can fill it with fuel and take suitable payload, this is something that you cannot do in the GIV.

Mutt

[AgentDenzel]

300 driver here............just did Kuwait London a week a ago pulled back to LRC landed with plenty reserves but ISA + even at FL450 throughout the western part of Europe winds were not that bad, but I do agree ATC descends u early

I've done OMSJ-LFMN with average head winds of 65 knots on the nose, routed south of Italy, this one was a bit stretched but landed with about 1h30 worth of fuel before the light comes on