Clink-clank...another medal

[Whenurhappy]

Like many others in the twilight of their careers, I inhabit Linked-In in the vain hope that the Book of Faces for Grown-ups will generate an amazing job. Sadly, to date, this hasn't happened.

However, today I did receive an offer - for an RAF Medal. Here's the link:

http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-medal-p-12737.html?cPath=21_211&utm_source=linkedin&utm_medium=cpm&utm_term=RAF+Photo+Ad1&utm_content=RAF+Photo+Ad1&utm_campaign=linkedin


It does stress that this should not be worn alongside operational/campaign medals, but who would buy this piece of tat? Cold War Warriors who spent their lives on Clutch Airfields?

OK, excuse my perjorative language, but is there anyone inhabiting this focum who would be tempted to buy one of these...be honest:\

[FFP]

A day out of uniform is a day wasted......no more ! Fit in with the 3 civilian friends you keep to show that you're not instituitionalised and still be loyal to your life long vocation by wearing this little beauty on your chest !!

[Whenurhappy]

Oh course, I forgot about the niche market of ex National Servicemen who spent 2 years at Little Snoring on the Wold on 'fizzers'. Will look good on the blazer with RAF Pocket Badge, assorted memorabilia (including the Diamond-Jubilee-Medal-for-those-not-awarded-it). Think Russian General, complete with the bulbous nose and whiskery 'tache.

(Tongue in cheek of course...dare not offend those called up for NS. I might get sent a National Defence Medal with a white feather attached).

[P6 Driver]

I love the little touch that a miniature is available, presumably for those Black Tie events. Or perhaps for when you're wearing your old Mess Dress in the privacy of your own home during your twilight years - a bottle of wine, a good meal, baby oil and a mirror to view your purchased medallions while ... (I'll let your imagination do the rest).
:ok:

[Milo Minderbinder]

"The full-size medal is available to all those who served in the Royal Air Force, their next of kin or direct descendants. "

So they're selling it to almost anyone.

[Ali Barber]

How about buy yourself a VC from the same site. A bargain at only 22 quid and you don't even have to get shot at!

[Samuel]

As an alternative Whenur, and as you are eligible, you could apply for a real Defence Medal....



http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/Shadblat/DSCF1700.jpg

[A2QFI]

It is Walt Heaven!

[SirToppamHat]

Though presumably, as they are covered in the RAF crest and such-like, these medals are authorised by the MOD for sale?

STH

[Whenurhappy]

Samuel,

NZDSM - got it, wear it (got approval via MOD DS Sec)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

WWI replacement medals can be supplied with your Service details.

I thought all of them had passed?


I think I'm more irritated at the MoD for authorising this.

Milo - since there were over 2 million in the RAF c1945, and they had something of a reputation for putting it about a bit, I should think almost everyone is a direct descendent. Norfolk excepted, of course.

[Samuel]

Whenur: NZDSM - got it, wear it (got approval via MOD DS Sec)

Good for you!:ok:

[TheWizard]

What about a natty baseball cap to show everyone you 'served'?
Air Force Baseball Caps | Embroidered RAF Veteran Baseball Cap (http://www.awardmedals.com/raf-veteran-baseball-cap-p-16676.html)
http://www.awardmedals.com/images/royal-air-force-veteran-baseball-cap-med.jpg

[Geehovah]

It does stress that this should not be worn alongside operational/campaign medals, but who would buy this piece of tat? Cold War Warriors who spent their lives on Clutch Airfields I'd say that does you a disservice.

Tat maybe, and few would even contemplate it but don't link such a medal with a legitimate "campaign".

We all fought the fight we were given. Careers are not a personal choice. You take the posting and do your best. Some tours bring glory, some don't, but all are Service in the truest sense.

I for one, enjoyed RAFG. We trained hard, and played hard but never fought. If we had, we'd have given as much and, perhaps, inevitably, more than some of those who serve today. Some of my friends who arrived at RAF Wildenrath never left.

I supported current ops for years and still spend every day watching how they are progressing but don't take away the victory that was the Cold War and, ironically, through politics not conflict.

[Whenurhappy]

Having started this thread, perhaps I am being a bit hard on some people. I am assuming - along with most of those posting here - that it will be RAF Veterans and wannabees who would buy this medal. I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of these are bought by relatives for Grand-dad who smells a bit of wee, as a keepsake.

If my young kids saw this, I wouldn't be surprised if they clubbed together and bought it as a birthday or Christmas prezzie for me. Thinking about it, if I unwrapped it on such an auspiscious occasion, I'd be really made up - (pause, dust in my eye...) not for the trinket itself, but for their very kind thoughts and enthusiasm. Although I now have 7 medals (presented - not purchased!), if the kids did did that, it would mean more than any of those 'proper' medals.

Not that I'd wear it of course...and I'd demand the receipt and get my money back! How dare they waste pocket money in these frugal times.

[Whenurhappy]

Gehovah - you make a very good point that the Cold War was a campaign and that complete victory was achieved - a point that we often forget. Ironically, perhaps, my recently awarded NZDSM was for service during the Cold War - and milled with my details as a mere Fg Off!

[ricardian]

What do you say if someone asks you "What's that medal for?"

[Whenurhappy]

Gullability?

[NutLoose]

Do you think they would sell me two, so I can put one on each side of my fleece to make them look balanced.. :E

[Bob Viking]

You have hit the nail firmly on the head there. It is something that has bothered me for a while and maybe it's time to air my view.
Let me begin by saying I have nothing but respect for the job that folks are doing on Ops day in, day out . However, the minute people start to crow about it and look down their noses at guys with less medals it makes them look like a prize tosser in my opinion.
I have been in the RAF for 12.5 years now and spent most of those flying FJs, for which I am very grateful. However, my particular jet was not deployed operationally during my stint. I had a blast but have not ticked that particular box and, trust me, it bugs the hell out of me.
I suppose I should think I'm lucky not to have been in harms way but I will be that loser stood at the Cenotaph in 50 years time with only a Diamond Jubilee Medal to show for my troubles (I will still not buy one of the above mentioned Medals regardless).
I was at an RAF funeral recently and several people I met, for the first time, introduced themselves by staring at the empty patch underneath my wings. I, in return, looked at their assembled Herrick and Telic medals and felt an enormous pang of jealousy but as Geehovah has correctly pointed out above. You play the hand you've been dealt.
The funny thing about the funeral (not that it was a particularly funny occasion) was that all those fellow FJ guys looking down their noses at me would have looked like REMFs in comparison to certain Rotary aircrew. There's a lesson there I guess. There's always someone with a bigger d1ck!
BV:(

[NutLoose]

I only got one for NI in my time and would be embarrassed to ever wear it, I must admit seen few people with those veteran lapel badges, but would even be embarrassed to wear one of those, I just think they look a bit sad. Similar to those that still flaunt their rank on stuff with retired on the end of it... I once said to one guy who introduced himself with a bunch of airs and graces as AVM XYZ Retd, get over it mate, you are a Mister now.

[glad rag]

...those diamante wings brooches wife-offs used to wear discreetly around the posher parts of ones Station.......:p

[Bob Viking]

Is that like the 'walk off' scene in Zoolander? What would the wives do to compete with each other? It sounds like a hoot. I'd pay good money to see one of those.
BV:ok:

[Rigga]

"I once said to one guy who introduced himself with a bunch of airs and graces as AVM XYZ Retd, get over it mate, you are a Mister now. "

LOL! I once introduced myself to a guy thus:

Hi, I'm sorry, I dont know you who you are?

I'm Wg Cdr Blogg you can call me "Wg Cdr"

Nice to meet you. I'm Mister Rigga - you can call me "Mister Rigga".


I do have a couple of jangly things but don't tend to wear them much (except for the missus).

[Melchett01]

Probably a slightly contentious view and I don't want to appear like one of those "sneering tossers", but I have never understood the fascination by these baubles and bling. Half the time, they aren't even particularly nice to look at - more cheese than a pack of cheesy Wotsits. What I find particularly confusing is when you look at the Old Boys parading on Remembrance Sunday, lots seemingly thinking their chestful of genuine, hard earned campaign medals aren't quite enough, so they add one of these underneath. Frankly, their campaign medals alone, even where it is a solitary Defence Medal or War Medal say far far more than an entire collection of purchased bling ever could.

But this brings me on to my point, medals are an emotive issue. And as has been said, it is often down to the luck of the draw and being on the right unit, in the right place at the right time that dictates things. Given the way that all 3 Services have been called upon to support the nation (on ops and increasingly at home) in recent years, and indeed during the Cold War, combined with the fact that this as an issue clearly isn't going to go away, why can't they just re-issue the old Defence Medal?

If memory serves, that was issued on a graduated timescale according to the risk and rigour associated with where you were posted; so spend your war sipping G+T in the Savoy and dodging the odd V1 / 2 post Blitz and that would rightly need a longer period of service than if you were in an operational area under the threat of regular air attack. I'm fairly sure that such graduated criteria would fit quite nicely with the concept of those spending much of their service in Germany whilst those posted to other areas might have a different qualification period. Also, rather than the War Medal which had a blanket 28 days under Colours and you get the medal, which would mean people potentially failing training but still getting a medal, the Defence Medal criteria could help ensure that you had to do a reasonable amount of time to make sure you had earned it.

Now I'm not a Muttley in any sense; I probably have the only 3 medals I am likely to get, am happy with them and don't feel the need to buy any others. But for the sake of a little harmony and to put these discussions to bed once and for all, as well as stopping these cheap baubles being put up for sale by "Del Boy Medals Plc", it has to be at least worth considering. Of course, this would depend on us not being skint and being able to afford it!

[Samuel]

Bob Viking: There's always someone with a bigger dick!

There is in fact a Law of Swinging Dicks, which goes something like: "When two or more swinging dicks are gathered together in one place for the purpose of achieving cooperative ends, the amount of cooperation actually achieved is inversely proportional to the ambient level of testosterone".

Empirical evidence of this law exists in all parliaments, and clearly at some public events attended by retired officers...like funerals.:rolleyes:

[NutLoose]

I just realised, I actually have 2 medals, I have a bronze medal I got at school for life saving :ok:

[Melchett01]

I wonder if they do those baseball caps with gold braid across the peak if you made it to Gp Capt :E

[NutLoose]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/Shadblat/DSCF1700.jpg


Interesting, I see that one is Regular... Do they do one for Constipated as well?

:E

[Melchett01]

I just realised, I actually have 2 medals, I have a bronze medal I got at school for life saving

So that's at least one you had to put your neck on the line to earn ;)

[NutLoose]

That's why I would never wear my NI GSM, the Army earned theirs big time, I didn't at Aldergrove .... A bit like all these senior officers that turf up places on some shallow reason simply to get a medal...
Oddly enough at the time in Germany I was the odd man out because next to no one at that time had any medals... No one did..

[Kengineer-130]

I gained an Iraq gsm & an Afghanistan gsm, really don't think I did much to deserve them apart from dodging the occasional incoming. Personally feel that the lads out on the front line are the ones that deserve them really, spannering a C-130 isn't really that dangerous ( unless you happen to be on a wonky set of ladders eh SPHLC? :ok:).

[Surplus]

Nutloose,

the one on the left must be a SMALL.

[Bob Viking]

Since you have some medals you are able to afford the luxury of indifference towards them. Those of us without any can only wonder!
Woe is me.
BV:(
Although, now I think about it a London Marathon Medal and four Nijmegen Medals weren't that easy to come by. A terrible case of groin chafing as I wandered the plains of Holland is the closest I've felt to dying.

[Whenurhappy]

Bob viking:

No medals? Not a problem...just follow the link in my original post and the world of Waltdom awaits!

[500N]

No medals and having some sort of service is better than Waltdom anyday !!!:O

[dctyke]

And what about those important OOA staff visits that had to be stretched out to 30 days before running home to the comfort of a desk and a new bit of bling!

[Whenurhappy]

Or what about those Gp Capts and 1*s in certain Branches who look forward to the QDJM so the QGJM won't be lonely?

[Bob Viking]

You're in danger of sounding like one of those people of which I spoke earlier. Does it make those Gp Capts and 1*s any worse at their job because they don't have medals?
CAS is a great example of a man who obviously grew up in an era when actual shooting operations were thin on the ground. Does that make him incapable of high command?
I am playing Devils advocate now, but have I made my point?
BV:8

[Whenurhappy]

I do take your point - of sorts. I had been in 14 years before I received my first campaign medal; since then I have received another one every 2-3 years - and at 50, there is probably every likelihood that I might serve on another operation in due course, before I am finally culled.

It is not appropriate for me to comment on the current CAS - but a cursory look at Sir Glen Torpy's 'rack' is revealing, especially for a Cold War warrior. Unfortunately I know of fellow senior officers who have avoided service in various deserts - in part because it would upset their postings plot and therefore their promotions - or because, in one high-profile case, his wife didn't want him to go. Does it make them less effective? In terms of day to day staff work, probably not, but I know that my Service life is considerably richer for having undergone some risks on operations. Certainly, when I was in MB I could add a degree of understanding and urgency to many of the operationally-related issues that crossed my desk, whereas those who hadn't served on operations simply did not posess that empathy or knowledge. There is also a credibility issue with colleagues and subordinates.

I was filling an 'Any Branch' post; our team of 6 was an eclectic bunch representing most areas and capabilities of the RAF and it worked well. It's sad to note that these posts are now annotated 'flying related', thus narrowing the employment field for non Flying Branch officer. Anyway, that's another story...

[langleybaston]

We all fought the fight we were given. Careers are not a personal choice. You take the posting and do your best. Some tours bring glory, some don't, but all are Service in the truest sense.
I for one, enjoyed RAFG. We trained hard, and played hard but never fought. If we had, we'd have given as much and, perhaps, inevitably, more than some of those who serve today. Some of my friends who arrived at RAF Wildenrath never left.
I supported current ops for years and still spend every day watching how they are progressing but don't take away the victory that was the Cold War and, ironically, through politics not conflict.

I totally agree. As an attached civilian with a CC Commission in case WW III broke out, Guetersloh and JHQ [total 13 years] were real enough ...... deterrence worked, and we were part of it. I just went where I was sent.

[Halton Brat]

I find it quite sad that sundry posters in this thread display such a clearly disrespectful attitude towards those who served in previous and, generally, more peaceful times.

If the measure of a man's/woman's service to their country is merely to be ascertained by a collection of medals, many of which were awarded for being simply 'in country', then we have reached a low point indeed.

A couple of years ago, I had an opportunity to chat with General David Petraeus at a US Military Cemetery. If you want to see medals, see an image of him in uniform - perhaps we should take the American route on this subject in order to pacify some PPRune scribes here?

Remember, that Old Boy standing proudly at the village War Memorial on a cold November Sunday morn may, one day, be you. Yes, he may even exude a faint aroma of "wee" if you are downwind of him; but please do not trample on his pride here - he, like you, was ready to do what was required of him & more in the defence of the Realm.

I myself can boast no worthwhile medals, save one awarded by a PMC computer for turning up regularly during a 24yr 'Cold War' career. Though I respect & admire those who have put themselves in harm's way during the Bush/Blair Wars, I remain quietly proud of my service, in the knowledge that I was ready to Stand To & do my duty, and more.

I remember here also those who died 'in service' in peacetime, in the air and on the ground. Medals rarely graced their chests; they have no need of them now.

Finally, I am saddened to hear serving Officers discussing their numerical medal tally here; this is most distasteful and ungentlemanly, Old Boy.

HB

[BEagle]

I once said to one guy who introduced himself with a bunch of airs and graces as AVM XYZ Retd, get over it mate, you are a Mister now.

I imagine the retired Air Vice Marshal had rather better manners and chose to ignore such a rude comment?

[Tankertrashnav]

I had a militaria shop up to 3 years ago, and this sort of medal gave me a steady addition to my normal turnover. I can assure the OP that there is an unending supply of men (and women) of a certain age who are quite happy to purchase a row of these unofficial medals to supplement their meagre (or non-existent) complement of "real" medals. I've never been tempted to wear one myself, even though my single GSM is starting to look a bit lonely on Remembrance Sunday, especially alongside my serving son who with the QDJM now has seven.

[Whenurhappy]

Langley, HB et al,

I hope that I have not implied that those who have served previously are 'lesser mortals'; however the geo-political environment of 25 years ago is completely different from the global threats and challenges malarky of the last decade.

I joined up during the Cold War and very, very few people had medals, and if they did it was a major talking point. Now, most serving personnel have campaign medals as well as QGJ & QDJMs, and in this respect I am fairly typical. If current SP don't have medals, their contemporaries will naturally wonder why. It may be due to Branch/trade/qualification issues, it may be on a personal restriction on deployment (medical, sy, welfare...) or it could be down to a degree of time/location/luck. Unfotunately in the case of some SP I know, it is due to a degree of cunning, risk aversion and an ability to play the system. But operational experience does count as AFG is still our 'maximum effort' - thus, having served on ISAF I was able to comment on an ISAF-related matter within my competencies in a meeting earlier this morning with some partner nations who are participating. If I hadn't been there, I couldn't have commented.

However, campaign medals are sui generis, ie of that time and place. Once the majority of our forces are back from the 'Stan, very, very rapidly the number of campaign medals awarded will plummet. Given that the average length of service of a Soldier is less than 8 years, by the end of this decade a majority of young soldiers (and the same for airmen and marines) won't have served in a desert location (Syria/Iran/Sudan/Nigeria...notwithstanding!) and therefore won't have any medals.

On a related issue, I had been trying to update the RAF List for years - trying to get post-nominals correct (university qualifications and professional memberships) I eventually realised that this had to be done via JPA. I went to the clerks in MB and the LCpl dutifully entered the correct details. I added (as a joke) 'oh, and DSO, DFC and bar!', which he dutifully typed in without hesitation. 8 Back-spaces amended the record, again without hesitation. Damn! Pity I'm an honest chap!

[exMudmover]

Halton brat.

What a splendid summing-up.

The smug and dismissive attitude towards older veterans and survivors of Cold War flying is distasteful.

Whenurhappy

I can only speak reference Cold War Mud-Moving but I suggest you compare accident and death rates in the 70s and 80s with what has gone on in the Fast Jet world since GW1. Low Level training in the prevailing crummy weather (Yes, we flew regularly in weather below Low Flying limits), was moderately dangerous, with an associated butcher's bill. There was a lot of flying going on.

You do a disservice to all of my comrades who died carrying out their duty during that period, and yes - not one of them wore a medal.

[Fareastdriver]

There were no problems about medals from those of WW2 vintage. In about 1964 a new station commander arrived at RAF Honington; then home to 55, 57 and 90 Squadron. The messes and crew rooms, both air and ground, were carpeted with blokes with chestfulls of gongs mostly earned with Bomber Command. The Group Captain had none, he had joined after the war. Nobody worried and he was a first class station commander.

[phantomstreaker]

I admit to being one of those (sad) few who were tempted and bought the said "Cold War Medal".

Having served my 12 years and my only gong being a NI GSM I did feel guilty for serving mostly 2nd line and missing out on OPs.

However, honestly I am ashamed of it....it sits in the wardrobe and I wouldnt show it to anyone.


As my grandfather said before he died " At least you served and wanted to be deployed...thats a lot more than a lot did, don't be ashamed"

[Chinny Crewman]

Bob I couldn't agree more, rotary aircrew have the biggest dicks! (or should that say we are the biggest dicks?!)

[Melchett01]

Since you have some medals you are able to afford the luxury of indifference towards them. Those of us without any can only wonder!


Bob,

I certainly didn't intend to portray a notion of indifference. If I had be aiming for that, I wouldn't have suggested the re-introduction of something along the lines of the Defence Medal, which I would intend to provide some form of medallic recognition to anyone who had provided productive service i.e had passed out from professional training and possibly completed their first tour.

FWIW, I think medals are an important part of the moral component of fighting; they serve as an outward symbol of what you have achieved (up to a point) or done as well as, I would hope, providing something for the junior personnel coming through the system to look up to for inspiration.

My own personal view is that the UK has not quite got the medal issue right. I wouldn't want to look like some third world dictator, but equally, I think the notion of risk and rigour as the sole criteria has been taken to the extreme. May be it is a cost issue, may be one of political embarrassment that awarding a medal is indicative of UK personnel ending up in some pretty nasty places, thus demonstrating the politicians' collective failure once again, I don't know. But I currently think our medals policy is too restrictive. If I had my way, I would like to see

A Defence Medal

The introduction of some form of Ops Support Medal (similar to the concept the US had in hte post 9-11 era) whereby if you are on a named op but not in country and so won't get the campaign medal, you would be awarded this one instead. That would capture many individuals deployed to places like the CAOC, Falklands etc who arguably have a role to play in enabling the smooth running of ops but aren't in harms way, thus preserving the credibility of the official campaign medal.

Neither am I convinced by the rules surrounding 'double medalling' which strike me as being a blunt instrument created by some desk polishing jotter blotter who doesn't even have a passport let alone go on ops. Frankly, I think HM has more things to worry about than being gravely offended because someone who has served multiple tours in AFG has the audacity to want to wear a NATO medal as well as the OSM.

Just my tuppence worth to hopefully set the record straight. Unfortunately, I think I am probably in the minority in those ideas and in the current climate, there is likely to be no interest.

[langleybaston]

Difficult.

What follows is an outsider's view but not, I hope, worthless.

If you have many medals, and you like that, good.
If you have many medals and sling them in the drawer like my father did, good.

If you have few or none, and don't care, good.
If you have few or none and do care, not good.

The attitude of HMG and, for all I know, Her Gracious Majesty, is not new, and generation after generation has faced a lack of outward recognition while others have strutted and swanned around. The Gallipoli star is one example of a binned medal. Bomber Command is a more recent case. The inequitable issues of ration gongs such as Jubilee medals is yet another.

I have in front of me a strange document, addressed to Group Captain Langley RAFVR, with a personal number, from Gloucester. It went with my last overseas post, and in previous incarnations I was almost a Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr. It is without a date, and was held on file for issue if the balloon went up. A complete uniform was held in store, fitted once, checked annually. I did a full NBC course every year, went on every 1BR Corps Exercise, and a fair number of Harrier and other jollies in the field. I think I helped to win the Cold War.

No medal.

Apart from being buggered about with guard duties, SDO and the like, my existence was similar to, and parallel to, that of many a non-flying RAF officer at the time .......... even the 7/24 aspect was written in, and sometimes enforced. Paid less than a Group Captain, a lot less.

Would I like a medal? Yes.

Do I think I should have one? No.

Was it a worthwhile use of a 41 year career? Yes, undoubtedly.

I even got a few forecasts right, and no crew that I ever briefed was lost. Better than a medal.

[November4]

That's why the Veteran's badge was introduced - to show you have served in the Armed Forces. No matter where, when, what medals you had - to show you had served.


Plus it was lot cheaper than issuing a medal

[Tankertrashnav]

Nutloose, your AVM story reminded me of a certain knighted admiral who retired to a Cornish village. He put it about that he'd like to be addressed either as "admiral" or "Sir John". He was therefore somewhat taken aback when he walked into the pub one day and the character who habitually propped the bar up greeted him with a cheery "Hello sailor"!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Since you have some medals you are able to afford the luxury of indifference towards them. Those of us without any can only wonder!
Woe is me.
BV:(


Bob,

I have a few, none of the "Top Trumps" variety but the standard campaign ones but I tell you I would trade the lot to have been good enough to have spent 12.5 years doing what you do.

Medal or no medal you are part of a select band of people who have achieved something most of us can only ever dream about :D

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I imagine the retired Air Vice Marshal had rather better manners and chose to ignore such a rude comment?

I should imagine the retired Air Vice Marshall thought it rather refreshing to not have yet another sniveling bum tonguing sycophant stood in front of him, carry on Sir :ok:

[Training Risky]

I should imagine the retired Air Vice Marshall thought it rather refreshing to not have yet another sniveling bum tonguing sycophant stood in front of him, carry on Sir

+1 :D:D (Replacement keyboard and new coffee required!)

[NutLoose]

Beagle, he walked into my hangar without a by your leave! spotted some screws on a bench, walked straight over to them ignoring me and said Ahh just what I need, can I take some, I asked who he was, got the AVM Retd Drivel, I then told him he was actually a Mr and would he mind fecking orrf..
You don't see Tony BLiar calling himself Pm Rtd do you and I cannot see why some ex RAF officer should think it is apt either, it's a total load of ballcocks.

If he had come in asked if there was any chance of scrounging a couple of screws he might of got somewhere, instead of getting me pointing out his actual rank these days and giving him some directional advice.

[500N]

I met heaps of people when I was very young who were Major this,
Colonel this, the odd Captain from the war days and it seemed
to be the norm for those of field rank and above.

So what is the consensus now regarding using your rank
in civvy street ?

[Yellow Sun]

So what is the consensus now regarding using your rank
in civvy street ?

To quote an old friend in BA:

"When I meet an ex Sqn Ldr whose first name I don't know, I call him sport until I find out"

[500N]

Over here, everyone is "mate" !:O

[Tinribs]

I used to give a little grin when I recall the A1 QFI who had me thrown out of CFS because I wasn't "the sort of officer he wanted" signed a chipmunk out on his last day of service in wind just over twice the linit and tipped it on its nose

Now I just feel a bit sorry for him

I have known for a while I'm not immortal and now I think I might not even be perfect

[Samuel]

So what is the consensus now regarding using your rank
in civvy street ?

This is largely a British things isn't it? I've not come across it in Australia,and it's pretty rare in NZ. I know of some pretty senior guys in NZ who don't both with the affectation of rank. There is one I know, retired Air Marshal, and former CAS and CDS who was a Pathfinder but always introduces himself as "Dick". Another more recent Lt General is "Don" to all. Possibly NZ is too small for tall poppies!

[500N]

Yes, like Australia, too small for tall poppies.

The military here has a much higher profile now and the last 10 years
due to the wars we have been fighting plus the two VC winners.

I notice the media here always show and intorduce the media commentators
by rank and mostly address them by rank.

I haven't met any of the recent one's - Cosgrove, Cantwell, Molan so don't know if they use their rank.

[Herod]

Having retired from the military as a Flt Lt and from the commercial as a Captain, I don't use anything except Mr. However, if I used Captain (which is still the address on my BALPA magazine delivery) that could be Army, Navy, commercial aviation or maritime. Worlds of difference.

[L J R]

I thought a civilian 'captain' was the guy in a funny hat behind the desk in the lobby with a bell and a luggage rack.

[NutLoose]

Sounds almost RyanAir.
:E

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

If I used all my entitled titles, I (and I suspect many of us) would have more letters before and after my name than I have in my name (and I have two middle names).
Reminds me of the Monty Python doctor with DLitt (All Other Places in Canada except Medicine Hat) in a nameplate which circled the room.

Monty Python - Cosmetic Surgery - YouTube

If people know your background, there's no point telling them your titles. If they don't, and you don't have a big enough reputation to precede you, then there's also no point telling them.

Besides, everyone can have a lot of fun watching pseuds make fools of themselves.

..and only the praise of the praiseworthy is worth having.

[Union Jack]

Thread drift continuing, and although still rather surprised at NutLoose's curious response to someone who it now appears can't have completely ignored him, because he said "... can I take some", then, when not unreasonably asked he was, introduced himself with a reply which seems to put his request and his presence in the hangar into some sort of equally reasonable context, I must say that it has always seemed much more fun not to let on about rank or rating achieved, or even that one has served. This has invariably led to some very humorous situations and much, sometimes embarrassed, laughter in the long run when one's cover is blown - and never a hint of rudeness or chippiness.:ok:

And yes, I have been on the other end of such situations, including meeting and chatting informally whilst very junior with someone I was led to believe was a middle-aged civilian whom I subsequently discovered - and not from him - that he was a serving admiral and, to come back to medals, a VC to boot!:O

Jack

[Jamieone]

For what it's worth Debrett's says this:

How to address Retired Officers of The RAF - Forms of Address by Profession, Royal Air Force (http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/professions/armed-forces/raf/retired.aspx)
The old-man is an ex-Medical Branch Wg Cdr doctor and his full title (plus array of medical qualifications) would take up a fair chunk of business card. Since he's been a civilian he uses 'Mr' almost exclusively. He never uses 'Dr' and certainly not when travelling; presumably to avoid finding himself cast in some kind of Leslie Nielsen role from 'Airplane' in the event of an in-flight calamity.
As an aside was it B.H. Liddell-Hart who wound up some of the establishment by referring to himself as 'Captain' post-retirement?

[BEagle]

Beagle, he walked into my hangar without a by your leave! spotted some screws on a bench, walked straight over to them ignoring me and said Ahh just what I need, can I take some, I asked who he was, got the AVM Retd Drivel, I then told him he was actually a Mr and would he mind fecking orrf..

Why could you not have simply said "Excuse me, may I help you?" in a tone which would have left him in no doubt as to your authority. Your response was ignorant and totally lacking in manners, irrespective of whether or not you considered his previous rank merited due respect.

Incidentally, why did you consider it to be 'your' hangar? Did you own it?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Why could you not have simply said "Excuse me, may I help you?" in a tone which would have left him in no doubt as to your authority. Your response was ignorant and totally lacking in manners, irrespective of whether or not you considered his previous rank merited due respect.

Incidentally, why did you consider it to be 'your' hangar? Did you own it?

Why is It that when reading the above i am instantly reminded of Capt Darling :ok:

[BEagle]

I've no idea.

Anyway, I suggest that it would have been far more satisfying to have had AVM (Retd.) Hardly-Worthitt going pink with embarrassment at being caught like a naughty child raiding the sweet tin than belittling his former rank.

[November4]

Looking at Jamieone's link to Debretts on Use of an Officer's Rank Without His Surname (http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/professions/armed-forces/rank-only.aspx)

Debretts says

In social correspondence certain officers may be addressed at the beginning of a letter by their rank alone, e.g. 'Dear Admiral' in place of 'Dear Admiral Smith', but some officers dislike this practice, especially when used by those outside the Services.

In any event this practice is limited to the following ranks:.
.
.
.
Royal Air Force: Flight-Lieutenant (shortened to 'Air Commodore'); Air Vice-Marshal and Air Chief Marshal (shortened to 'Air Marshal'), and Marshal of the Royal Air Force (shortened to 'Marshal').

Surely Debretts have not made a mistake?

Flt Lt Bloggs
RAF Little Airfield Still Open

Dear Air Commodore.....

[langleybaston]

"Over here, everyone is "mate""

In deepest rural Lincolnshire the only way to avoid "mate" is to wear a tie, and even then it is not foolproof.

Why do I find "Shag" or "Horse" more acceptable? Funny old world.

Drifting ...............

[paull]

I am NOT ex forces so there is no reason for me to know this but my understanding is that at a certain level you "Carry your rank" into civvy street.
For Royal Navy that rank is Captain, but because Commanders are often promoted on retirement to Captains I think they get it.

I do not know the equivalents for Army and Airforce but if anyone is using the title Captain, then it is navy or its bull5hit (and that goes for ATPL too)

Based on tables of equivalence of Ranks, it looks like
Captain (RN) = Colonel (Army) = Group Captain (RAF) so perhaps these are the ranks that "Carry"?

[Samuel]

How to address Retired Officers of The RAF - Forms of Address by Profession,

I have posted that to the fridge door with immediate effect! I expect she'll take heed....:ooh:

[Melchett01]

I am NOT ex forces so there is no reason for me to know this but my understanding is that at a certain level you "Carry your rank" into civvy street.
For Royal Navy that rank is Captain, but because Commanders are often promoted on retirement to Captains I think they get it.

I do not know the equivalents for Army and Airforce but if anyone is using the title Captain, then it is navy or its bull5hit (and that goes for ATPL also)

I'm pretty sure that it's actually Sqn Ldr / Major / Lt Cdr level that you are entitled to use your rank in an honorific sense.

The practice if promoting on retirement no longer happens and hasn't happened for as long as I can remember it - certainly in the UK military. RN Captains above a certain level of seniority may be appointed Commodore for a specific posting, but unless that 'promotion' is substantiated they will revert back to Captain at the end of the tour.

[Archimedes]

ISTR that the RN brought the rank of Commodore into line with the 1* ranks of the other two services and made it sustantive in 1997-ish. There was an article just before SDSR which noted that the RN had (at that point) 20 more 1*s than it could find jobs for.

[Climebear]

I'm pretty sure that it's actually Sqn Ldr / Major / Lt Cdr level that you are entitled to use your rank in an honorific sense.

The practice if promoting on retirement no longer happens and hasn't happened for as long as I can remember it - certainly in the UK military. RN Captains above a certain level of seniority may be appointed Commodore for a specific posting, but unless that 'promotion' is substantiated they will revert back to Captain at the end of the tour.

The rank varies between services IIRC it is Maj in the Army. For the RAF it is Flt Lt (with 3 years on service on the Active List); the pertinent regulations are set out in QR3002.

3002. Retention of Rank by Officers on leaving the Active List. Sponsor: RAF Employment Policy

(1) An officer of the regular air force placed on the retired list or on the reserve will be shown in his substantive rank. An officer of the rank of flight lieutenant or above leaving the reserve, or having no reserve liability, may be permitted to use his rank as a courtesy title subject to clauses (7) and (8) and to completion of 3 years service on the Active List.

...

[NutLoose]

My hangar, one man band, was working away never saw him straight off, by that time he was already lifting items off the bench.. was a WTF moment.
Believe me when you get people walk in and start going through your tool kit looking for a screwdriver to do XYZ up you soon start to get peeved to the ignorance of some people, these are my own tools and probably are in the £15,000 plus range, a ratchet screwdriver costs about £60 to replace the last time i looked, top that off with the fact you then have to start tearing aircraft apart because you cannot find it.... so yes one can get a bit short with them. And before you start on about shadow boards etc, believe me the best tool control is to have to buy them yourself, i can look in my tool kits and instantly see when something is missing, everything has it's set place.

[500N]

I believe in the Army it was or is Major and is the first of the "Field" ranks which I think I mentioned before. I'll leave the other services to those who served in them.

[cornish-stormrider]

nutloose - I find a photo taped to the door of the toolbox showing a crushed hand with an attached caption of "This is what happens when you use tools from here" ususally stops it.

I have had to use a swift WTFDYTYAD when I caught someone inside my shiny stack......

[diginagain]

One edition of 'Soldier' magazine from GW1 had a photo of a chef swinging a Schermuly container full of his dhobi around, with the letters 'KYTFHO' on the side.

Letters to the Editor followed, and it was only after several months that it was correctly de-cyphered.

[BEagle]

NutLoose, that certainly puts your reaction rather more into context. Someone helping themselves to the property of others in the way you describe certainly deserves to be challenged very firmly. No matter who they might be.

Doubtless those were 'aircraft spec.' fatseners and probably accountable?

Did he ever explain why he wanted them?

Tool control! I took my car to the local M-B dealer for a routine service. When I collected it, on the way home I noticed a rattle. Under the bonnet I found a 10" screwdriver left in the engine bay - it could have shorted the battery, fallen into the poly V-belt or punctured any one of 4 cooling radiators..... I had words with the dealer about tool control; it seems that there is no system of tool tags, shadow boards or the like at such places.

[Wwyvern]

Beagle.

Check PMs.

Ww

[NutLoose]

BEagle, this is one reason one gets upset,

Read page 5, this young lads ( a trainee ) screwdriver was found to have caused the pilots death, Though DNA testing found the pilot had come into contact with it, or it had been borrowed without his knowledge, it could have gone the other way and regardless of that this poor lad has to live with this for the rest of his life, even though it appears it may have been the pilot or someone else borrowing his screwdriver with out asking..

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_024587.pdf

[chopd95]

NL, whilst my flyer's head agrees absolutely with your sentiments regarding tool control, I find my lawyer's head shaking at certain of the deductions you make from the AAIB findings of fact - nuff said.

As for rank / titles etc. recently at my daughter's pre-op bedside. all who had been in attendance were a model of polite proffesionalism until..... an utterly arrogant "fellow" pushed aside the curtains and without a by your leave (and without consulting coleagues, or notes where all was recorded) launched into a rather nasty interrogation regarding her asthma inhaler on the bedside.
After taking a deep breath I found that " And you are ?",
was sufficient to deflate the arrogance and obtain a more reasonable conversation with Mr P...l (consultant anaesthetist). I have nothing but regard and respect for the operating surgeon and all in his team, save for the "don't you know who I am" attitude of that man.
As for VSO's, NL clearly caught a bad one, or at least one on a bad day. Happy to report that my experiences have been much more as they should be.

[Samuel]

Just to return to medals, and the wearer being a VSO, an ACM RAF, one Lord Elworthy, a New Zealander, who was CAS RAF, and CDS,UK, and Keeper of Windsor Castle, so he had more medals than you could shake a stick at!

When he retired, he returned to the family pile in Canterbury, NZ, but was sought out one day to address a Brevet Club function in Taupo, and an air force aircraft was laid on for his use.

I was sent to the party by road as "liaison officer". Come time for his return, and I was standing under the wing of his aircraft with the crew because it was raining rather heavily, when this car appears and drives over, and out steps the only Air Chief Marshal I'd ever seen[the rank doesn't exist in the RNZAF] wearing a dazzling array of medals and braids. I immediately did my meet and greet bit, and, as I don't do 'awestruck', suggesting he might like to get aboard out of the rain and I would collect his gear from the boot. "Son" he said, "if you're going to get wet, then we're both getting wet" whereupon he got his own bag out of the boot!:D Now he, for those that may not recognise the trait, was a true gentleman!

[BEagle]

NutLoose, yes, you're absolutely correct about 'borrowed' items. Although never involved in maintenance activity myself, because we had an on-squadron engineering flight my colleagues and I learned and respected the protocols and requirements for tool control, even for such seemingly mundane requests as asking to borrow a screwdriver to tighten up some loose screws holding up the perspex around the flying programme board.

[Rigga]

To continue the drift -

I fully support Nutloose's action to prevent petty pilfering in his business/hangar and his fears about the poor lad's Screwdriver. We all have our favourite worries and his is FOD, it seems.

In support of his control fears and most others' fears of civil maintenance practices - I would like to explain that, while it may seem 'a bit unsafe' not having tool controls "like the military do", the emphasis we civvies have is to make sure the aircraft is FOD-free at the end of any work - rather than just accounting for tools used within the local environment.

The dangerous bit is allowing FOD (of any sort) to stay on the aircraft - and that is not really prevented by building complicated methods of checking tools.

NL has stated the best tool control system - your willingness to buy expensive replacements!

[NutLoose]

On the medal front, one would imagine winning something like a VC would ensure ones future guaranteed position on any and every Station parade..

[500N]

Or any parade for that matter and rightly so.

[Union Jack]

Just to return to medals, and the wearer being a VSO, an ACM RAF, one Lord Elworthy, a New Zealander, who was CAS RAF, and CDS,UK, and Keeper of Windsor Castle, so he had more medals than you could shake a stick at!

.... and one higher rank too, Samuel, that sadly is no longer awarded, either in the UK or Godzone - Marshal of the Royal Air Force.:ok:

Jack

[Whenurhappy]

Slightly back to the thread.

exMudmover, et al. I refer you to my response to your criticisms in Post No 45. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

Most people serving today with a few years of service with a have a rack of medals and thus on the rare occasions that SP are seen in Service Dress on Mess Kit a visual biography of their service career can be downloaded in a second or two. The additional point I made was that operational serving is an enriching experience for most. This does not denigarate those who have served in earlier times when the war was cold and our role was to defend Western Europe - and medals weren't awarded for that. My comment refers to some who are serving today and have avoided going on operations.

However at risk of offending some, perhaps older, members on PPrune, life on an airfield in the 1980s, waiting for the klaxon to sound is completely different from those who have served on operations in Iraq or Afghanistan over the last 10 years. Mostly you were home to the family on a regular basis and although flying in NWE was (and is) a hazardous affair and unless the Speznaz deployed early or PIRA were particularly active, you weren't subject to regular IDF on your bases and expect that your aircraft will take incoming once outside the peri track. The Cold War training and readiness losses were very high, and morbidly these losses ensured the Peace, and ultimately victory over the USSR. Again, though, I suspect the levels of PTSD then ('LMF'?) compared with the tidal wave that is being generated now is a mute testatment to how intense current operations are.

I agree that there should be some medallic recognition for a period of military service (NZ has chosen 3 years Regular, for example), but my original post was about buying commemorative medals. I'm please to read that at least one PPruner has owned up to buying one!

PS: In this morning's bag I've received the QDJM. Smart it is, too. And free:)

[Tankertrashnav]

I have been helping to organise next Saturday's V Force reunion at Newark Aircraft Museum. Most of the 200 or so attending will come into the category of "cold war warriors", and apart from the odd GSM and AFC there will be few who can claim the chestful of medals rightly adorning the uniforms of their younger RAF successors.

I dont think many of us feel we were badly rewarded for our service - I have made my objection to a Cold War medal clear in the past as being unnecessary and inappropriate - the whole point of a cold war is that it isn't a shooting war, so why the need for medals?

Those who were on duty in October 1962 at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, sitting bombed-up and ready to fly to all points east are going to be interviewed by the BBC at Newark for a projected programme on the crisis. Those are guys who very nearly took part in the ultimate shooting war - ironically one for which I suspect no medals would have been awarded!

[Blacksheep]

This does not denigarate those who have served in earlier times when the war was cold and our role was to defend Western Europe - and medals weren't awarded for that. We had a POL Storeman at Waddington in '69 - one "Flash" Thompson. Before joining the RAF he had served in the Parachute Regiment and had just the one medal.

With clasps for his service in:
Malaya, Kenya (Mau-Mau), Cyprus (EOKA), Yemen (Radfan) and Borneo (Confrontation). You couldn't see the ribbon for the clasps when he was (inevitably) on the AOC's parade. So, there were medals for active service in the Cold War years, but just the one size fits all General Service Medal. :hmm:

[sled dog]

Some years ago at a RAFA dinner, a young lady on my table asked why i had one minature medal with two clasps ( GSM ) but another, younger, person had two separate medals. I replied that the system had changed. Why was the system changed ? Surely one gong with clasps would suffice ? ( but not so impressive to the ladies...)

[exMudmover]

Whenurhappy

No, you did not make yourself clear in post 45.

Speaking solely about Fast Jet flying, my contention is still that Cold War flying was VERY MUCH more dangerous than current peacetime or operational flying.

Once again I pose the question: How many Fast Jet aircrew have been killed on operations since GW1?

Compare your answer to the scores of aircrew killed during the “peacetime” Cold War flying. This is not about medals, it’s about the risk to your pink body every time you climbed into your aircraft.

One of the reasons Cold War Fast Jet flying was so hazardous was because risks had to be taken to get the job done with some of the crummy equipment we had. For example, how many aircrew today continue on task in peace or war with no HUD or no radio? We were having to do that in the Falklands war and it was SOP in peacetime training. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, it’s just a fact.

As an example, if you had ever observed a Harrier Field site operating under TACEVAL conditions then you might have some idea of what I’m talking about.

[Tankertrashnav]

Sorry Blacksheep, memory is playing tricks with you there. Kenya appeared as a clasp on the Africa General Service Medal which was first awarded in 1902 with Edward VII's head on the obverse. There was a gap between 1915 and 1956 when the Kenya clasp was approved, probably the longest in the history of British campaign medals.

Malaya and Cyprus were clasps on the old 1918 GSM, whilst Radfan and Borneo appeared on the 1962 version.

Maybe he'd had the clasps refitted onto one medal, but I doubt if an eagle-eyed SWO would have let him get away with that.

[Melchett01]

Speaking solely about Fast Jet flying, my contention is still that Cold War flying was VERY MUCH more dangerous than current peacetime or operational flying.

Once again I pose the question: How many Fast Jet aircrew have been killed on operations since GW1?

But how much of the perceived reduced risk in current days is down to improved practices, a better understanding of risk management, mitigation and exploitation and a reduction in the political appetite for any loss at all rather than a change in the level of danger?

Although a 70s child, so very much a nipper during some of the frostiest days of the Cold War, I am guessing that if the balloon had gone up, many sorties would have been one way. In which case, it makes it very difficult to do a side by side comparison with today where a one way sortie would be political suicide for any politician that authorised it.

[langleybaston]

"One of the reasons Cold War Fast Jet flying was so hazardous was because risks had to be taken to get the job done with some of the crummy equipment we had. For example, how many aircrew today continue on task in peace or war with no HUD or no radio? We were having to do that in the Falklands war and it was SOP in peacetime training. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, it’s just a fact.
As an example, if you had ever observed a Harrier Field site operating under TACEVAL conditions then you might have some idea of what I’m talking about."

Amen to that: NWE in most seasons potentially, and often, evil; skies often swarming with aircraft high speed low level, choppers [never mind Harriers] operating out of tiny clearings, popping up here there [and sometimes AAC, to add to the confliction] and everywhere, active airfields very close to each other and to civil ...... I was only a Met. man but the weather that "my boys" flew in would sometimes make you hesitate to use the car. Hats off to 2 and 4 squadrons' Hunter men in particular, and their successors at Guetersloh in the Harrier.
Not to mention 19 and 92 with very short endurance ....... I used to pray that an accident did not happen on my watch, because all sorties were briefed face to face, either at a 1000 bomber raid stand-up job, or later in the office. In bad weather OC Flying/Ops used to camp out in the Met.Office, alternating with trips up to ATC ...... I suspect he cadged coffee and fags in both. I don't think METARS and colour code trends had been invented in the Hunter days, everything had to be decoded, easy for me, not good for authorisers.

[NG_Kaptain]

Her's one from APC on the Military forum.

Lackland NCO earns Bronze Star - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/66379-lackland-nco-earns-bronze-star.html)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I was such a lightweight, doing night AAR, and low level intercepts in harry doggers wx when I should have been "training operational fund teams". No wonder I never got a medal....:suspect:

[NG_Kaptain]

"The Bronze Star is the U.S. military's fourth-highest individual decoration for bravery, heroism or meritorious service.

Gamez distinguished herself by meritorious achievement as the NCO in charge during a 365-day deployment, January 2011 to January 2012. While in Afghanistan, she accurately executed operational funds across eight remote bases, providing commanders with flexibility in support of counterinsurgency efforts. Gamez trained 68 operational fund teams, reviewed 34 projects and funded 280 joint acquisition board packages enabling critical base sustainment."

[Geehovah]

After post #94, you need to fess up as to whether your Cold War recollection is based on experience or hearsay.

I’ll follow up by saying that it’s apparent that medals are a contentious issue. I have friends who have earned serious “top row recognition” and will never mention why. I have others who will tell tales of derring-do which leave me humbled. I was briefed on the bravery of Chinook and C130 crews who braved the same fire fights of which our WW2 ancestors made us proud. Take nothing from them.

I flew for years. I flew sorties where I vegetated for hours on end. A Russian during the event was a bonus. I flew short exercise sorties (read air combat at low level) from Wildenrath where we never got as far as the POL (those who were there will understand). 20 minutes in an F4, 3 tank fit and back on the ground with 7 simulated “kills”. Hectic days. A friend landed after just 40 minutes with a real kill in 1981 but, sadly, one of our own aircraft. I had days where I was telling my man in the front where the “lumpy bits” were so he could avoid bumping into them while I was watching on radar to intercept anyone else daft enough to be down in the North German murk with us. And there were plenty daft enough - but mostly Brits! I saw French Mirages pull up using plenty of French expletives when they decided the Brits were mad. I nearly died on a bright blue day surrounded by 50 other aeroplanes when a planner thought WW3 in a 30 mile CAP box was good training. It was; but it was the only time that I left CAP before the fuel was on minimums. Three serious 500 ft “bubble infringements” ( 1 unseen until the pass) – read dust offs - was enough for one sortie. My pilot that day died later in the Falklands on a benign training sortie. I nearly died when one engine failed and a 2nd emergency meant the only remaining engine decided not to play ball. Luckily it reconsidered and allowed us to land. No Queens' Comm because we put it safely on the ground. I also nearly expired when my mirrors were filled with my leader’s airframe. That was life in the Cold War where unbriefed combat was the norm.

Contrast that with my “operational flying” – granted mostly F4s in the Falklands in the immediate aftermath of the conflict – when the real risk of a rogue Argentinean attack was relatively remote. Deny Flight was not really a period when we might have met an air to air threat, more likely a SAM.

I wasn’t under threat when I earned one of my medals when I was running the Ops floor in a well known CAOC when Milosovic left the Farm. No Scuds were likely to hit me unlike some of my friends during GW1. Interesting, all the same. I was awarded 4 medals on exchange in the US (including a top shelf offer) but “Brits Don’t Do Medals”. At least they look good in the shadow box in my study. My American friends felt at least I should be able to look at what I might have been awarded - but for HMG. A nice sentiment. Again, granted, no rockets were landing on my head and I never saw any sandy places. Different standards but the same wars.

And you're right. I was home regularly in 2ATAF. We only had one (or 2) week long lock-in exercises a month. We only had APC, MPC and ACMI detatchments that took us away for 3 to 6 weeks at a time so it was plain sailing. At least the 4 month Falklands detachments came a little later.

In our free time, a Warrant Officer was shot by the IRA at a crossroads in The Netherlands on his way to the ferry.

Ultimately, I go back to my original point. You play the fight you’re given. We all might be heroes. Some are. Some of us might have been. Those who are, deserve respect that even a medal can’t construe.

[alisoncc]

I wear the Cold War Commemoration Medal referred to here Cold war history exhibition - RAF Museum (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/cosford/collections/aircraft/cold-war-intro.cfm) with some pride on Anzac Day parades. Why? Because down here on the Mornington Peninsula some 50 kms South of Melbourne, Oz the locals were so isolated from the realities of the 1950/60's Europe and world affairs that their knowledge of the Cold War is commensurate with their knowledge of the Crimean War or the Boer War, and it helps me remind them that the Cold War was for real, irrespective of whether people died or not.

When asked I say it commemorates the time I spent manning the barricades against the Soviet hordes. I believe that those who were involved at the time took it very seriously, as did I. If we hadn't there may not have been many around afterwards to wear any actual WWIII medals awarded. The commemoration medal only gets an airing once a year, but when it does it fulfills a very worthwhile purpose.

PS. I regularly socialise with people who have no idea what the "V" Force was, have never heard of the Vulcan, and know even less of the threats posed by the likes of Khrushchev, Breznev, et al. And yes they are of a similar age to myself, so they should know.

PPS. Medals and the like aren't worn for the benefit of the wearer, unless one is taken with continuous glances in a mirror, they are worn to let others know that certain events took place, and the wearer had some direct involvement.

[NutLoose]

British Cold War Veterans (http://www.britishcoldwarveterans.co.uk/news.asp)

[Whenurhappy]

Gehovah - check your PMs.