Hard to find pilots?

[CaptainProp]

From Flight Global:

IN FOCUS: Gulf business aviation operators admit it is getting harder to find pilots

Harder to find suitable and experienced pilots, or any damn pilot as long as he/she is type rated? That goes for the European operators as well.... :mad:

[inner]

Indeed, hard to find typerated pilots!! Non typed are too expensive :yuk:

[lk978]

Hard to find:

- Type rated guys
- Previous sim within 6 months
- 500 on type
- No license conversion required
- 24/7 standby (or days off but must remain available if required, but it is not standby because that would be against the contract)


Basically its hard to find the same guy who just left.... maybe should of asked if they were happy.

There are plenty of guys out there just might need to have a 3-6 month plan for recruiting rather than pressing the emergency button and calling the media about a pilot shortage.

[cldrvr]

Pay and conditions have eroded in the ME and are no longer significantly better to contemplate taking up employment there for a few years to bank some serious cash. The difference was far greater a decade ago compared to what it is now and plenty, especially EU based pilots that are employed, will no longer take the plunge. The ME has gone the way of a lot of entry level jobs in Europe and they cannot justify that. They should go back to what was on offer 10-15 years ago and they should have no problem getting their postions filled.

[chimbu warrior]

Hard to find:

- Type rated guys
- Previous sim within 6 months
- 500 on type
- No license conversion required

Ah, so it is hard to find pilots that some other operator has trained and prepared for you.

Just get real and hire for attitude, then invest a few bucks in your employees. Stop trying to "steal" from the training budget of some other operator.......and don't give me the "..but everyone does it..." line.

In the past, decent operators invested in their staff and reaped huge rewards in loyalty. Simple really.

[flynowpaylater]

Chimbu - Totally agree with you.

[CaptainProp]

Chimbu, that's correct and I think all posters so far agree on that.

The problem is that a lot of management companies are promising owners that they can do this and that for them, we can find type rated pilots for you so you don't have to pay for that either bla bla bla.... Everything they can, just to look cheaper than the competition and lure over aircraft owners from other management companies. Due to this practice a lot of aircraft owners will simply not accept the cost of type rating a new pilot anymore and this leaves operators with no choice but to chase up a rated pilot.

[bingofuel]

Unfortunately, aircraft owners, or potential owners, despite clearly being successful business people, often have no idea about operating their aircraft and seem to believe all the hype of these management companies spout forth, how then can put their aircraft on an AOC and it will make them money etc etc, and fail to seek alternative advice. Of course these companies tell the owners that pilots know nothng about operating aircraft, or that plots are incapable of operating all aspects of the aircraft.
Of course if they were to perhaps ask the correct questions, then they could reduce their overall costs which would pay for type ratings and recurrents and have very professionally run flight departments

As most of us know, because of this, there is only one winner and that is the management company.

[skylog]

Fully agree with most posts, IMHO although we are partly to blame, it is with our "Pimps" aka Management companies where the great part of the blame lies, who promise the world to owners at justifiable premium rates.
I personally had one owner who was under the impression that I was earning 50% more than what I was actually earning & he was wondering why I expected to be paid extra to work extra :eek: & argued that he expected a greater deal of understanding from our side for the amount of money that he invests in us ....problem solved......he employed us himself directly.....
........never been happier.

[FrankR]

One thing is true in most all business, and life in general.

They (we) spend great amounts of time, energy, and money attracting new customers, employees, and friends, and scant little of same to keep and improve what we have.

Remember that the best ones will leave easily, the "poor fit" will hang on forever.

... Repeat this acquisition and departure cycle ten times, and what do you have?....

FR

[skylog]

FrankR...Spot On :ok:

[2992]

I think one of the problems that has set in, is the extortionate price for type ratings! It is a huge racket! Come on, 15,000 for recurrent on a medium jet???

But we all get those nice manuals, coffee, couches, and a friggin sim that costs as much as the aircraft! Really? For a week????

And because this has become such a huge out-lay, then this problem of finding typed / current pilot has made this artificial market where being current outweighs most other factors . . . And has made companies and airmen alike act as they might not otherwise have.

[CaptainProp]

@ 2992 - Yes, and no.

Let's see here. A G550 / GLEX / 7X is going to cost you anything from $40 - $55m, depending on YOM, TTAF etc etc. Initial type ratings for 4 pilots will probably cost you around $200K. That is less than 0.5% of the total investment.

To put this in to perspective, I've heard rumors that parking in the new hangars up in Moscow SVO is around $50K. Per month. I have been quoted $55K for a new carpet for one of our jets. New FMS? $55K?

If your aircraft is going to be operated on an AOC and you hire a rated pilot he/she still needs to do an OPC. If you get the "wrong" guy, just because you were chasing type rated pilots, and he/she leaves before the end of the first year, you would have been better off financially had you hired the "right" pilot, that stays with you, and given him/her an initial....

[qualityjet]

:D:ok:

Exactly!

[chimbu warrior]

Excellent post Captain Prop. Better to get the right pilot than someone who fits the beancounter's requirements. :)

[PukinDog]

2992

I think one of the problems that has set in, is the extortionate price for type ratings! It is a huge racket! Come on, 15,000 for recurrent on a medium jet???



Is there a private aircraft in the ME that doesn't throw or give away at least $15,000 worth of catering in a week?

If I'm going to spend regular parts of my life in training and take it seriously, I'll take the manuals (for an aircraft I'm supposed to know) coffee, couches, and working sim thank you very much. You think those are luxuries? Jeez man, I had all those things forever ago at uni in the frat house. Believing 15 grand for recurrent is exhorbitant is the first step down the road that ends where you ask crew to share hotel rooms at expensive destinations the pax want to go to. I mean, whaddaya get anyway reaaally? A shower, bunk, and a head right?

Hotels. What a racket.

[Fokkerwokker]

Better to get the right pilot than someone who fits the beancounter's requirements

Funnily enough some big players were talking about this at the EASA symposium during the lunchbreak at the Belgrano yesterday. Perhaps entrenched attitudes of employers/managers/owners are slowly changing and we may be witnessing the greenshoots of a 'Bizjet Pilot Spring' here?

[CaptainProp]

Funnily enough some big players were talking about this at the EASA symposium during the lunchbreak at the Belgrano yesterday. Perhaps entrenched attitudes of employers/managers/owners are slowly changing and we may be witnessing the greenshoots of a 'Bizjet Pilot Spring' here?

Don't hold your breath!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

That is universal. Most industries have lost all appetite for training people if they can possibly avoid it.

Strangely however, the companies most prepared to train, seem to do best!

Hence a mock conversations somebody sent me once:

Finance director: "What if we spend all this money training people and they leave".

Ops director: "What if we don't, and they stay?"

G

[2992]

"Let's see here. A G550 / GLEX / 7X is going to cost you anything from $40 - $55m, "

- That's the top end. In the US, most aircraft being bought are in the 5-20m range (used)- there is a huge sag in the market.

" that doesn't throw or give away at least $15,000 worth of catering in a week?"

- OMG! In the real world, we do not throw away $2,000 USD/day. Maybe Mr. Brunei, but not in any commercial endeavor attempting to make money.

" Believing 15 grand for recurrent is exhorbitant is the first step down the road that ends where you ask crew to share hotel rooms at expensive destinations the pax want to go to."

- No, believing "$15 grand for recurrent is expensive" is stopping many many people/corporations from buying or keeping their aircraft.

Before any others try and accuse, I help run and am chief-pilot of a 135 (AOC) in the US. I deal with the owners of the aircraft, pilots, sims, maitenance, etc.

Not only do I see the owners of leaseback aircraft scared of the initial outlay of purchase of the aircraft, but your should here what an owner's accountant thinks of $15 grand for a week training! When you have the meeting with potential owners and lay out the cost structure to operate a jet, there are usually laughs involved!

When an Oil Temp Sensor costs $2000, something is inflated. Yes, you can say it covers the cost of R & D, but that is on a mid-80's Hawker - they already recooped their money on that one!

I know I am never going to win this argument. . .

[PukinDog]

- OMG! In the real world, we do not throw away $2,000 USD/day. Maybe Mr. Brunei, but not in any commercial endeavor attempting to make money.


The subject wasn't the real world, it was the Gulf where your typical management company is conceived by some poseurs who hire a tea boy first and is managed like a poorly-run money laundering operation. They're spawned, they hatch, and die.

But during that brief, shining moment, lots and lots of catering.

(Brunei's not in the Gulf. It's another place and has trees)

[2992]

You know what, I forgot the original post was about the ME. . .

I guess that might be the "real world" now. . .

A brave new world.

[CaptainProp]

2992 you are correct when talking about the "lower" end of the market but that market does not really exists in the ME, or Europe, not in the same way (extent) as in the US at least.

Yes, the initial quote was from an article about the ME but the same argument is true for Europe, the CIS and Asia for the Falcon 2000 and upward size aircraft.

There are tons of qualified and experienced pilots around to fly these aircraft, but very few companies are hiring qualified pilots, they are hiring type ratings.

What you are telling us 2992 is that you are trying to do things the right way by explaining to potential owners about the involved costs before they buy a jet.

I know numerous operators in Europe and the ME that intentionally misinform potential clients about costs just to get them to sign a management contract that will be very costly and difficult to get out of. Once its signed they slowly but gradually "introduce" all the real costs involved.

The same goes for quite a few brokers who are interested in selling a jet, any jet. They don't care if it's the right jet for the client, if it's going to really do what the client wanted it to do, costs what the client had budgeted for etc etc....

[mutt]

the "lower" end of the market but that market does not really exists in the ME It limited in the ME due to the range limitations, but it's increasing, all you have to do is look at the aprons in Riyadh, Jeddah and Dubai and you will see what I mean.

- OMG! In the real world, we do not throw away $2,000 USD/day Oops, guess that I dont live in the real world.

Mutt

[EMB170]

in my experience, if you buy a new aircraft you will get 4 typeratings thrown in , so no issue with training costs !

[CaptainProp]

Unless you want to sell on those training slots and make some money one them. Now where can I find those rated guys again? :yuk: