F35 AAR

[beerdrinker]

A question about the air to air refueling system fitted to the F35.

The F35A has a receptacle for the boom of a USAF type tanker.

What are the F35B (primary customer USMC) and F35C (primary cutomer USN) going to have? These two services' fast jets have probes fitted for the Probe and Drogue method. I have yet to see photos of probes on the B & C.

[ORAC]

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http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7112/sddf35testb041.jpg

[oldmansquipper]

Might be a bit of a problem with the flying boom method on F-35B STVOL..

... `Direct injection` through the lift fan doors might work.... if only briefly ;)

[Dan Gerous]

Ref the vid, are they even making the aircraft wear Hi Viz vests now :confused:

[giblets]

There is the option to fit other variants with the probe, the C will have the probe only, and Canada and others will require this too (on their 'a's). There was a document posted some time ago detailing the fact.

[30mRad]

Nice to see that even TPs lunge at the basket and can't keep a smooth line on the hose!! ;)

[Heathrow Harry]

"Direct injection through the lift doors" = plenum burning on the cheap as discussed in the Carrier thread

[sycamore]

And will it ever become a `buddy-buddy` tanker off the ship?

[giblets]

It's not cleared to carry tanks currently, making it a bit difficult, however Israel is planning on developing, as are Lockheeed.

[glojo]

And will it ever become a `buddy-buddy` tanker off the ship? Been discussed several times on numerous threads. The USA does not require it and if we want it, we pay for all the costs of the full development of the aircraft and looking at the way the MoD are throwing out silly numbers then no doubt these costs would be in excess of £2bn :ooh::=

[Brain Potter]

I am curious as to whether the receiver "plumbing" downstream of the probe/receptacle is identical in all models. If this is the case then that seems likely that either:

1. The -A is saddled with a system that can only onload fuel from a boom at rates equivalent to that from a hose.

or

2. The -B/C is lugging around a weight penalty from the heftier pipework necessary to allow the -A to take proper advantage of boom AAR.

Has Australia made a decision on probe or receptacle for its -A models? The answer to the question above would seem fairly fundamental to that choice. There would be little point in opting for boom refuelling unless there is a substantial advantage in onload rate.

[XZ439]

30mRad

There's usually a reason why the TP's are making a lunge at the basket. Receiver Bow wave comes to mind.

[30mRad]

Receiver bow wave....sounds like a good excuse to use next time I'm struggling behind a tanker! In the GR4/1 we aim up and right, effectively to miss, to take into account the bow wave and thus have a graceful and smooth approach and plug.....apparently....never seemed to work......:E

[peter we]

"And will it ever become a `buddy-buddy` tanker off the ship? "

And how about using a V-22 as a tanker? I know they are expensive but they have other uses.

[Lonewolf_50]

Aren't "buddy stores" an external stores kit/module?

I find it curious that the USN did not include buddy stores capability (perhaps internal plumbing mod?) in its final JSF requirement. I thought it was in the original, but may be remembering incorrectly.

IIRC, one way to pressurize the external tanks is via a bleed air service line, though there are doubtless other methods.

I wonder if "the KC-10's will always be there" rubbish was bought. :p

As to V-22 acting as refueler, there is some talk about using V-22 to replace C-2 for C.O.D. mission. Not sure how many pounds of gas a V-22 could carry internally to use in AAR. Don't think it would be very much.

[WhiteOvies]

USN have no need for F-35 Buddy refueling as they have Super Hornet that can do it for them (for now).

Any buddy refueling pod would have to be underwing mounted. Not sure if any of the other USN carrier aircraft such as E2/C2 can carry a pod?

[peter we]

Not sure how many pounds of gas a V-22 could carry internally to use in AAR. Don't think it would be very much.

In theory much more than F-35B, 9000kg internal cargo, I assume with a rolling take off.

[VX275]

What's the airflow like behind a V-22? Can't imagine its smooth enough for AAR.

[D-IFF_ident]

BP - rumour has it the configuration is per your option 1: I.e. the plumbing downstream of the receptacle is of the same geometry as behind a probe. Doubles the contact time for a pair while adding a substantial overhead in terms of tanker and crew requirements.

Not confirmed and hopefully duff gen, but current rumour on the street.

[Brain Potter]

If that's true, then the probe-equipped F-35A is the better option for customers with multi-system tankers. It may be possible for Australia to reach this conclusion, but one suspects a mixture of dogma and sheer numbers of KC-135s will not allow the USAF to do the same.

[TBM-Legend]

RAAF F-35A is standard USAF kit. Another reason why our KC-30A's have both hose and boom. The E737 AEWC and C-17 both are boomers as are the tankers. Fox 18 etc can use hoses..:} The C-130 can be fitted with Boom receptacle and according to a friend we probably will option the boom mod for the P-8 [if and when] The C-27J is a hose job so we have most bases covered.

[GreenKnight121]

Nice to see that even TPs lunge at the basket and can't keep a smooth line on the hose!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Don't knock it... Brit Tornado drivers are too timid.

Seat the probe in the basket firmly!

IN FOCUS: Shared Voyager delivers the RAF's new tanker/transport (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-shared-voyager-delivers-the-rafs-new-tankertransport-370777/)
Analysis of the problem has revealed the issue stemmed largely from system response and the closing speed at which test pilots were engaging the fuel hose basket. Airbus Military and Cobham were asked to certificate a design capable of handling contacts made at between 3ft/sec and 10ft/sec, but it was found that in UK trials these were being made at only 1-1.5ft/sec. This resulted in either a poor connection or the hose withdrawing in some instances.

[Lonewolf_50]

Digging deep into memory, there is a kit you can put on any USAF tanker (sounds like "mippers" though I forget the actual acronym) that renders either boom or basket method viable. Good for joint ops. (EDIT: Multiple Point Refuelling System, MPRS, under wing kit that allows a boom equipped tanker to also refuel drogue/probe equipped aircraft).

EDIT:

Hmm, interesting to note that most KC-135's have the drogue mod/kit equipped. Or maybe you have to make that decision before take off. (Why can't I remember any of this? Old age?)

[LowObservable]

The P-8A has a boom receptacle as standard fit.

Possibly because it's not going to do you much good refuelling a P-8 from a Super Hornet...

[Lonewolf_50]

Possibly because it's not going to do you much good refuelling a P-8 from a Super Hornet.
:ok:

That mental picture had me chuckling. :D

[D-IFF_ident]

Drifting off-topic, but... it would be challenging to refuel the C-27J off the KC-30A hoses. There is no centerline hose, while the Spartan has a wingspan of around 28m, the KC-30A measures about 60m. The hoses are somewhere inside that wingspan so aircraft separation would be a problem.

Back to the F-35 - there has been no public indication of the RAAF considering probes for their order. AFAIK there has been no non-public indication either ;)

[giblets]

Possibly because it's not going to do you much good refuelling a P-8 from a Super Hornet...

You mean something like this? :

http://www.naval-history.net/WXMemoirHamiltonFAADH-Valiant%20plug%20in.JPG

[BEagle]

The P-8A has a boom receptacle as standard fit.

Due, I hear, to the fact that the USN didn't know that there's no real problem when prodding with a 737-size aircraft.....:rolleyes:

[sycamore]

Didn`t a **-10 do some from a Kiwi A-4..?

[ORAC]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQh-uN_YMXWSxkUen8OJlXUbf2o7adIYoRnUaTECADASiGpvCQZAC1XUT9

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_2ngGMeMjjLI/TWo1Z46jJ6I/AAAAAAAAA8U/g6duibuyWG0/s640/Bucc%20Tanks%20Tristar.jpg

[Algy]

DEFENCE MEDIA RELEASE

First refuel for RAAF KC-30A refueller to F-35A (JSF)
http://images.defence.gov.au/S20152721

The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) has completed the first fuel transfer with the air refuelling boom from a RAAF KC-30A Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) to a US Air Force (USAF) F-35A Joint Strike Fighter at Edwards Air Force Base in California. A total of 59 contacts were conducted of which five contacts transferred 43,200 pounds of fuel during the four hour sortie.

Chief of the Air Force, Air Marshal Leo Davies AO CSC, described the trial as a significant step in the development of the KC-30A’s capability.

“Our KC-30A is an essential force multiplier. Mid-air refuelling is critical to ensuring global reach for our aircraft, our people and our equipment,” Air Marshal Davies said.

“Refuelling between the KC-30A and F-35A is an important step towards the KC-30A’s achievement of Final Operational Capability (FOC) and represents continued progress in the development of the F 35A.

“This achievement is significant because the future of Australia’s air combat capability is reliant on the successful partnership between these two aircraft and our ability to be interoperable with our international partners,” Air Marshal Davies said.

The KC-30A has two refuelling systems – the hose-and-drogue and Advanced Refuelling Boom System (ARBS). The two different refuelling systems allow RAAF to support a wide range of coalition aircraft on Operation OKRA where a KC-30A is currently deployed to support combat operations against Daesh in Iraq and Syria.

The five KC-30As are based at RAAF Base Amberley (QLD) and Air Force will receive an additional two in 2018. A single KC-30A can carry a fuel load of more than 100 tonnes and remain 1800 kilometres from its home base with 50 tonnes of fuel available for offload, for four hours.

Australia has committed to 72 F-35As for RAAF Bases Williamtown and Tindal, with the first aircraft arriving in late 2018. The F-35A will replace the ageing F/A-18A/B Hornet with a 5th-generation networked fighter aircraft.


Media note:
Details of FOC is available at Capability - Royal Australian Air Force (http://www.airforce.gov.au/IOCFOC)

Imagery is available at http://images.defence.gov.au/S20152721

Media contact:
Defence Media (02) 6127 1999