£660

[Rollingthunder]

Parents reveal fury after 'heartless' airline charged £660 for oxygen to keep their daughter alive on flight | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2130704/Parents-reveal-fury-heartless-airline-charged-660-oxygen-daughter-alive-flight.html)

I know it's the Mail, but,,,

My airline provides this for no charge, even tho' there's alot of activity in the background to be able to make it happen.

£660

[Bealzebub]

Are there no dolphins closer than the ones to be found 11 hours away in Curacao?

[Load Toad]

we assumed......free

Says it all. Feel sorry for the child and the family for the illness but surely for a child so ill it isn't simply a case of the airline providing free oxygen?

[crewmeal]

Judging by the title of the thread I thought for one moment that was what FR charged for excess baggage priority boarding etc etc... However i wonder if they looked at alternatives with other carriers rather than accept KLM's extra charges (if it was true that is).

[Hotel Tango]

Nobody was available from KLM yesterday.

They never are. Try and speak to anyone in authority at any airline these days.

If KLM had played their cards right they could have had some very useful positive publicity from this. Instead they have damaged their image. Yet another sad example of the disadvantages of modern-day management and methods. :yuk:

[Avionker]

If KLM had played their cards right they could have had some very useful positive publicity from this. Instead they have damaged their image.

Except for the fact that there would have been no story in the first place. If KLM had waived the charge, which I believe is detailed in their T and Cs of Carriage, the parents would have been happy and would have felt no need to contact the media would they?

[Hotel Tango]

No, but with a little intelligence KLM themselves could have generated good PR from it.

[jackieofalltrades]

KLM Physically Challenged Passengers (http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/prepare_for_travel/travel_planning/physically_challenged/index.htm)

The link, easily found, on the on the KLM website clearly explains what is needed in order to have oxygen supplied during flight. It states that there is a standard charge for this, but doesn't say how much. One is to phone their special number to find out that detail.

I am not at all surprised that KLM, or any airline for that matter, would charge for supplying oxygen. Maybe if the couple had done some simple research they wouldn't have been so keen to unleash their fury via the Daily Mail.

[jabird]

Sorry but I'm with KLM on this one but agreed they need to have someone prepared at least to make a statement.

The condition, which effects just 200 children in the world, has left the toddler unable to walk, talk or feed herself.

Her parents, Shane Barton, 23, and Jennifer Stermann, 26, raised £15,000 to send her to the Caribbean to undergo radical ‘Dolphin Therapy’ which has been proven to reduce the symptoms of the condition.

Well those two claims simply don't add up. You can't possibly have a condition with just 200 sufferers that has a treatment which has been tried and tested and peer reviewed in the usual scientific journals (the standard test any competent doctor, as opposed to journalist will apply to such a treatment).

She has defied the medics to make it to three and her parents hope the dolphin therapy could dramatically improve her life. Jennifer, who is 20 weeks pregnant with the couple’s second child, added: 'It’s not guaranteed that it will help, there’s just a chance.

I'm afraid this is what happens when emotions take over from rational thinking. We can do amazing things with modern medicine but there are still limits.

I would not wish this condition on any parent, but airlines have their policies about what is chargeable, I presume the fee is a reasonable reflection of the actual cost of such provision and not a Ryanair style price-gouge?

There are equally wide ranging conditions on the types of wheelchairs that an airline will take - you can't just whip out the discrimination whistle just because the airline doesn't carry you on the terms you naively expect.

[jabird]

I am not at all surprised that KLM, or any airline for that matter, would charge for supplying oxygen. Maybe if the couple had done some simple research they wouldn't have been so keen to unleash their fury via the Daily Mail.

Well presumably they have taken out insurance for this trip and the good people at the insurance company have given them a standard £40 long haul policy with no special conditions?

How much is HMRC making from this trip? As we know, they don't count the capital of Curacao as Amsterdam so are they not taking 3 x £82 for the privilege? Just to put things in perspective, that is half the oxygen charge - how heartless of the HMRC to charge the full rate for a sick kid!

[jabird]

Is there a doctor on this forum?

Three-year-old Jolina Skye Barton suffers from Ohtahara Syndrome, a rare form of epilepsy which can spark dozens of seizures a day.

Does the flight itself not pose a real risk then to someone who is so vulnerable, and does this not also create a huge possibility of the flight needing to be diverted to find treatment? Given the lack of land between AMS & SXM, not to mention the lack of specialist hospitals in the region (how many childrens' units are there - maybe one in SJU?), it all sounds very risky to me.

[Avionker]

@ Hotel Tango

No, but with a little intelligence KLM themselves could have generated good PR from it.

Agreed, but the cynic in me can't help but feel that the story would be unlikely to get any further than an in-house magazine.

Big corporation does something good = no interest

Big corporation does "evil" = equals public outcry

Yet another sad example of the disadvantages of modern-day management and methods.

Keeps the shareholders happy though, and these days that is the over riding concern of airline management, or so it appears anyway.

[ExXB]

Airline provide it 'free'?

I suppose just like the bottle makers gave it to the airline for free, and the O2 suppliers provided their bit for free, and the safety inspectors provided their time for free, and the equipment makers provided their certified equipment for stowing the O2 bottles securely, and the handlers loading and unloading (and securing any residue) all of the above for free.

Oxygen under pressure is a 'dangerous good' and cannot be boarded without significant (and costly) checks. Can you imagine what would happen if a bottle was mishandled inflight and turned itself into a torpedo? It could, or more likely would, endanger the aircraft and everyone on board.

No, I don't want airlines providing this for free. They might be tempted to cut corners.

[radeng]

They should have checked before booking. Then decided if they wanted the flight. For anything not 'bog standard' you need to check. But by all accounts (see past threads here in SLF) and experience of colleagues, an unadvertised service of KLM is the high probability of losing your bags when you transit through Schipol. I work on the basis that generally speaking, if airline A offers better value for money - which doesn't necessarily mean alower price - than airline B, then A gets my business. But it depends on how one judges 'value'.

Having said which, a typical 'where you are screwed' is a BA codeshare transatlantic where for timing reasons, you have to take the codeshare operated by American Airlines. Who are pretty crap on service these days, even in first class.

[cavortingcheetah]

It would have been perfectly reasonable had KLM insisted that the girl be accompanied by her own doctor if she's that vulnerable. It's considerate of the airline to even provide supplementary oxygen at a charge when by the tone of it all, had the little girl died on board, the airline would have found themselves with a damages claim at worst and bad publicity at best even had the parents signed a waiver.
No doubt the £660 will be provided by a donation, which is probably the law of intended consequences. The Dolphin Academy on Curacao cooperates with the Dutch Make a Wish Foundation which permits children with a life threatening disease to live their dream of swimming with dolphins.

[CelticRambler]

They could always cancel and drive down to Kerry so she can swim with Fungi. :ok:

They'd want to do it quick, though. Yer man was on the radio a few days ago saying he's going to have to put his prices up by 5€ to comply with some directive or other. :rolleyes:

[Rollingthunder]

Do tell how you can justify £660 $1200 , while we provide this at no charge.

[Shack37]

Do tell how you can justify £660 $1200 , while we provide this at no charge.


Good question Rollingthunder. I'm also a little (but only a little) surprised by the general lack of sympathy here. I wonder how many posters are wannabe bean counters. I also wonder how many of them have children fighting a life threatening condition and are as desperate as the parents they criticise.

[Load Toad]

My point is simple:
- For a child so ill surely it isn't just a case of having access to 'free oxygen'. I mean does the child need oxygen during a 'normal' day - what other care is needed especially if the child has an attack whilst on the 'plane. What about the impact on other passengers. As much compassion as I may have I'd feel pretty uncomfortable if a clearly disabled child was in distress on a flight and needed serious medical intervention.
- The 'assuming' aspect. We seem to live in an era where people 'assume' a lot & think that asking for something means that one shall receive. The actual GBP figure I have no idea if is reasonable (but see above - is it just about having access to a bottle of oxygen in the cabin...?).
The child is ill, respect for saving up to arrange some care to enhance the quality of the child's life - but given the severity of the illness couldn't the parents have discussed this with KLM (or any preferred carrier) in advance - they aren't going to turn up at check in with a severely disabled child are they?

[ExXB]

Do tell how you can justify £660 $1200 , while we provide this at no charge.

Your Company may provide it at no charge, but that doesn't mean it provides it at no cost (to itself).

O2 for use on board aircraft is not the same as O2 that patients can purchase at medical supply centres. The bottle itself is designed to for use on board aircraft and is VERY expensive. Use of a passengers own O2 is not permitted. True, they can be (and are) reused but even the transport of 'empty' bottles is strictly regulated. I don't think they can be carried in the hold of passenger aircraft. (Do you remember ValueJet's crash into the everglades?) The bottle must be secured properly for take-off & landing, be of the proper pressure for the patient (everyone, apparently, is different). I'm only touching the basics, there are a lot of significant costs in this process.

In the case of KLM O2 would be required on four flights.

It is 'nice' that this seriously ill passenger could travel to swim with the dolphins I would be more sympathetic if the passenger was required to travel for medical care and had no alternative.

[jabird]

In the case of KLM O2 would be required on four flights.

Five - the route to Curacao calls at SXM on the outbound. Now that right turn to avoid Signal Hill is enough to have all passengers needing extra oxygen! :ok:

[Rollingthunder]

ExXB

We know exactly what a Medi-Pac costs. It is provided as customer service related to doctor's advice.

Value Jets tragic incidence was caused by improper shipping of seat back O2 generators. An entirely different thing.

Purpose of trip is not part of the equasion.

[ExXB]

I agree the purpose of the trip is irrelevant, I was just stating my opinion.

However, as a result of the ValueJet incident - or if you prefer crash, O2 canisters cannot be carried in the belly of passenger aircraft (or in KLM's case in the hold of one of their combies). While this may have been a knee-jerk reaction at the time, it is now part of the ICAO/IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations. This alone add significant costs to the process, particularly in a market like the ABC islands where there are few freighters flying to Europe. That was my point. The costs are not insignificant.

Having O2 canisters in place for the four airports in question (or five) is a logistical nightmare.

I am glad that your company is prepared to absorb these costs, but obviously not all companies are that generous.

[Avionker]

Just out of curiosity ExXB are you confusing gaseous oxygen cylinders with chemical oxygen generators?

[jabird]

aving O2 canisters in place for the four airports in question (or five) is a logistical nightmare.

True, but could anyone comment on what would happen if, say, midway between SXM & CUR, the passenger starts having a seizure?

Given what was stated in the article, is the chance of that not almost 1?

Firstly, that is a terrible thing to inflict on the other passengers. Secondly, what is the procedure for treating, and who does it? What equipment is needed and how much space is needed? Presumably a "lessor" airline would just refuse to take the passenger?

Now if it gets more serious, where do you divert to? At least if this trip was to Florida, there would be a number of major cities up the east coast with specialist childrens' units that could help (but at what cost?). The Caribbean is a nightmare in this respect - different jurisdictions and very different standards of facilities as the populations on each island simply don't warrant the existence of the kind of facility you would find in a hospital like, say Great Ormond St. And that, of course, is assuming they will let you park your 747-400 there in the first place!

[Rollingthunder]

Medi-pacs, in the cabin, are not subject to Dangerous Goods regs.

I like swimming with dolphins. They are usually friendly.

[gusting_45]

Passengers' gaseous oxygen cylinders are permitted on board provided the operator is notified and the captain is informed. If KLM refuse it's carriage then that is their own rule and not a restriction imposed by it being defined as dangerous goods. Gaseous O2 systems are not permitted in checked in baggage. Liquid O2 systems are not permitted on board in either carry on or checked in baggage.

[BlueTui]

Should of just flow Thomson to Aruba and got a short internal flight... Thomson provide it free of charge.....

For something like this you do your homework, these people clearly have not and are just milking the press.

[Avionker]

KLM Working on a Solution For Disabled Toddler | Blog (http://www.reducedmobility.eu/20120417154/Blog/klm-working-on-a-solution-for-disabled-toddler.html)


KLM offers the possibility to provide passengers with a medical condition with compressed oxygen during their flight. Passengers may also seek to bring their own Portable Oxygen Concentrator. Either application must be made in advance by a medical doctor.

Jolina's parents originally called KLM heartless, not being fully aware of the airline's regulation.


Looks like it's all going to work out in the end.

[G&T ice n slice]

Call me a heartless nazi .. but

They have "raised" GBP 15,000

the airline seats cost GBP 3,500
the airline wants to be paid for providing an extra service (seems fair to me)

Question 1 - GBP 11,500 is left over after the seats
taking out GBP 660 leaves GBP 10,840

Now as far as I can make out a dolphin swimming session is about GBP 100 a time
Hotels are about GBP 100 a night
so that's GBP 200 daily - thow in a few extras at GBP50/day thats GBP250

So out of GBP10,840 that means about 43 days

"It's not a holiday"
well, yes it is - around 43 days worth

Seems to me like another set of "the world owes me a living" types.

sorry, for the little one, but in past times seems like we carried our own burdens, now we expect everyone else to, and they complain when everything isn't to our own spec.

[edi_local]

Seems to me like another set of "the world owes me a living" types.

sorry, for the little one, but in past times seems like we carried our own burdens, now we expect everyone else to, and they complain when everything isn't to our own spec.

Couldn't agree more.

Yet another case of someone wanting special treatment because they couldn't be bothered to do the research before hand. I know they have a disabled toddler to think about but 10 minutes of checking on the KLM website, or even a phone call to KLM would have given them all the information they needed. I'm sick of this kind of culture now. If you're travelling with someone who requires specialised treatment then for goodness sake check out what the airline has to say on the matter. If they demand an extra cost then you pay it, simple as. Why should an airline go out of pocket to provide a service which is by no means standard? My aunt looks after my mentally disabled cousin and she regularly flies with him. The EZY staff at LTN know about them and she knows EZYs policies on dealing with people like my cousin, but when she travels through another airport or with a new airline she always checks to make sure they are able to offer the assistance she needs. It's common sense, surely to check these things in advance and be prepared.

Like others have said, sympathy for the little girl, but not for the parents.

[jabird]

If would still question what happens during the event of an in-flight seizure? Has this risk been assessed and if there isn't a suitably trained person with the child, do you rely on there being a doctor on board or do you divert?

Considering health and safety environment + need for a specialist, I'm not sure if the former is relevant anyway, the latter poses considerable challenges.

G&T - I think there might be a big cost difference between swimming with dolphins as a tourist activity and the kind of therapy that is being offered here.

I totally agree with other comments about the entitlement culture and the lose-lose that the airlines are in, but having to care for a child that ill is still no holiday. That's why we have respite care.

[parabellum]

Well presumably they have taken out insurance for this trip and the good people at the insurance company have given them a standard £40 long haul policy with no special conditions?


Insurance probably excludes pre existing conditions and if it is known that oxygen will be required then it would not be covered by insurance, which is intended for protection against the unexpected and not a provision for a racing certainty. (Pure life insurance policies are an exception).

[Chuchinchow]

[pedant warning]

There is a difference between "insurance" (events or objects, for example) and "assurance" (people's lives)!

[/pedant warning]

[jabird]

[pedant warning]

There is a difference between "insurance" (events or objects, for example) and "assurance" (people's lives)!

[/pedant warning]

To pedant you back (if it can be a verb) and more - life insurance is a commonly used term, whether correct or not. Although I have never seen policies for people less than 18.

Insurance probably excludes pre existing conditions and if it is known that oxygen will be required then it would not be covered by insurance, which is intended for protection against the unexpected and not a provision for a racing certainty

You can get cover for pre-existing, they just woof the premiums up. You slice the extreme likelihood of something happen by dividing it by only taking the trip for a short period of time.

Thus even an event with a probability of 50% to occur within a year becomes 1% within the next week (roughly).

Could anyone comment on the procedure for a divert in this case, and who pays? If it happened, would KLM claim the costs against the insurance policy?


and got a short internal flight... Thomson provide it free of charge.....

Quite a variety of providers for that hop, a challenge if any flight is late at the best of times, but let's say they went this way.

Some aircraft doing this are small and unpressurised. The only comparable machine I've been on is the twotter, and I think getting anything other than yourself into those seats is going to be a struggle. Could anyone comment?

Also, not (directly) relevant to this case, but I'm confused:

Aruba is one of the four constituent countries that form the Kingdom of the Netherlands, together with the Netherlands, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten whose citizens share a single nationality: Dutch citizen.

In which case, why is SXM not a domestic destination from AMS, and why is there immigration for arrivals from CDG / ORY? Surely if one is a Dutch citizen, one is a European citizen and therefore these airports are part of the Schengen zone.

And if so, then the capital of Curacao is Amsterdam, and APD for this journey should be £12 per head. Heartless UK government!

[parabellum]

Chuchinchow - Point taken!:ok:

jabird - Yes you can get cover for some pre existing conditions but I don't believe that would cover the cost of the provision of oxygen, as a pre requisite for the journey, that would amount to making a claim before the event, a non starter as far as the insurance world is concerned.

If the oxygen is a known requirement prior to the journey then it is down to the passenger or their supporting health services to provide it, or the airline, at a cost.

[Avionker]

A slightly different angle on the story from the BBC.

BBC News - Birmingham family receives oxygen bill for disabled toddler (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-17750224)

As there does not appear to be any updates on the story, and they were due to fly yesterday, one assumes that they got away as planned.

I suspect that KLM may well have reviewed the charges, but if they did that wouldn't be newsworthy would it?

[jabird]

Yes you can get cover for some pre existing conditions but I don't believe that would cover the cost of the provision of oxygen

I wasn't suggesting that. As you say, the need for the O2 is a cert, there is nothing to insure in that respect.

The reason I brought up insurance was that the original article stated that the child would have upto 10 seizures per day. That also vritually guarantees there will be one on the flight. I wonder what procedure is to deal with that?

I then said that there was still a very high chance that the condition could deteriorate and that this might need additional and urgent medical help. It was the potential cost of this divert that KLM might claim from the insurance company, not the O2 cost.

BBC article says:

According to the family, they had expected to be charged £330, but Dutch airline KLM doubled this amount a week before they were due to leave.

This implies they did know O2 was chargeable.

A week before Friday's flight, he said the cost had been doubled as KLM considered the journey from Birmingham to Curacao, via Amsterdam, as two flights in each direction

I might have expected this from my local bus company, but not for an airline offering a through ticket. I had also assumed that the cost of €660 was due to a fairly sizeable quantity of O2 being needed. Now it turns out that they are actually charging per sector. KLM should have known this as soon as they got a booking reference number. And why on earth would a British family otherwise fly to CUR from AMS without a connection? Sure - as a cheapskate APD avoider I'll do it, but not for a complex journey like this.

"It's not the fact that we can't afford it, it's just the principle of paying 800 euros for something that's potentially going to keep my daughter alive," he added.

Just as I am starting to think that KLM have done a PR boob, we get back to this kind of talk.

Either they have done their research and they know it is chargeable or they haven't, in which case tough. Point the finger at being given the wrong info about the costs, but there seems to be a lot of having cake and eating it going on.

Presumably they are expecting free food when they arrive in Curacao - after all that will keep the three of them alive will it not?

family receives oxygen bill

When I was first scanning this, I was thinking either KLM had backtracked or a donor had stepped forward to fund the difference.

At the end of the day, it is a moving story, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there (and out of millions of paper readers it would only have taken one), someone came up with the cash.

I'm afraid that I'm just a little more cynical than that. My local quite often has this kind of fundraising event, and it is easy to ask why treatments like this can't be provided on the NHS.

Sadly, anything provided by government, or indeed by private company has to conform to some form of cost and benefit equation.

I guess we're always going to be cynics on pprune because we need to think with our heads all the time not our hearts.

Assuming that have gone, I hope it works out