CPL before ATPL?

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Hey everyone. I have another question. I have looked online and I have tried to find the answer on pprune, too, without success.
So, I've been thinking a lot about how I should finance my training and I thought, maybe I should do my CPL before my ATPL, giving me the chance to do some small job, earning a bit of cash and gaining hours. Usually people who want to become airline pilots start ATPL training straight after getting their PPL. I thought I might mix it up a bit ;) What do you think?

Thanks

[Graham@IDC]

There's not much in it in terms of the work you have to do. Most people go straight for the frozen ATPL.

[redsnail]

In Europe you'll only be increasing your costs significantly. The weather in the UK pretty much demands an instrument rating.
Since doing the 14 ATPL gives you the theory to do the CPL and IR then it's pointless just doing the CPL subjects only.

How you should finance your training? Firstly, focus 110% on getting the best A level grades you can. Forget faffing around here on PPRuNe.
Folks talk about getting a degree, but unless you get a degree that will get you a well paying flexible job ASAP I would say don't bother. You'll get only more debt. If you were in Australia I would tell you to get a job in a mine. Serious money is on tap there. So you'll have to find something else to do to earn money.

Look for jobs that pay night loadings, weekend loadings. Finding a job and sticking at it will make a huge impact on your focus.

[Tinstaafl]

If you're referring to the *theory exams* you have to pass (in the JAR/EASA system) then it's as Reddo wrote: Forget about the CPL theory and do the ATPL exams. The ATPL exams cover CPL & IR content, making the CPL exams superfluous for licence issue. If you the did the CPL exams you would still have to do the ATPL exams later (so extra cost & mucking around).

If you're referring to *licence issue*, you will only get a CPL at the end of your training no matter which exam set you do. Contrary to what the training industries' glossy brochures seem to highlight, you don't walk out of the school with an ATPL, only a CPL (+IR and ATPL theory and maybe a Multi Crew Co-operation course). That combination is often referred to as a 'Frozen ATPL' even though the licence that gets issued is a CPL, not ATPL - and it will remain a CPL until & unless, later in your career, you accumulate the required 1500 hrs experience (+ subdivisions) & pass an appropriate skills test

[pudoc]

Say there's a job opening CPL only required. You apply as does somebody with a frozen ATPL.

This guy is further qualified than you in terms of theory exams and practicality. You might get the job but you'll be competing with a lot of unemployed people who are further qualified than yourself.

Or say you have your CPL and then Jet2 start hiring low hour guys, only requirement is frozen ATPL. You've missed out.

Be fully trained, fully ready and then you can pounce on the first opportunity that comes.

But as always, it depends on you, your situation, want you want and how you want to do it. Many ways to skin a cat.

[737-NG]

PPL/CPL/ATPL; this is actually the logic progression of any pilot throughout most of the world. But not in Europe, where they like to put the cart before the horse. And make you pay 2 to 3 times the price for it. And have you spend all your spare money if you want to keep that "licence".

[Tinstaafl]

No. Even in JAR-la-la land it's still PPL-->CPL-->ATPL issue. The only difference is that the ATPL exams grant pass equivalency to the CPL & IR exams. Effectively, the CPL & IR exams are a subset of the ATPL exams. Doing the ATPL exams covers all knowledge areas of the CPL & IR exams. In Oz and the US the exams situation is different. The ATPL exam(s) cover new content that isn't in the lower licence level exams, so ATPL passes in those countries doesn't grant pass equivalency to any of the CPL &/or IR exams.

Even the other, more obvious terminology difference ie 'frozen ATPL' is little more than a marketing term that masks the underlying licence issue ie a CPL (+IR + ATPL exams and, increasingly, MCC).


Granted, the bureaucracy & resulting cost in Europe is excessive (and I'm being polite in my terminology. My usual description is far more robust).

[Genghis the Engineer]

Say there's a job opening CPL only required. You apply as does somebody with a frozen ATPL.

This guy is further qualified than you in terms of theory exams and practicality. You might get the job but you'll be competing with a lot of unemployed people who are further qualified than yourself.

Or say you have your CPL and then Jet2 start hiring low hour guys, only requirement is frozen ATPL. You've missed out.


I can see only one reason to only do the CPL exams. Because you only want to do CPL type flying and have no interest in flying multi-crew aeroplanes. I'm in that category, and quite happy - but I can think of no other good reason. Even then, I do wonder if I shouldn't have done the ATPL writtens so that I have the chance to fly multi-crew in the future should I change my mind.

(Then again, EASA will have changed all the regulations at-least three times by the time that's likely to happen.)

Pudoc's second point is absolutely right, if what you want is that multi-crew jet job.

On the first point, however I think he's wrong. If an employer is looking for a tug or taxi pilot, or some kind of GA aerial work, then they would prefer to have somebody whose interests are doing that sort of flying, rather than just building hours and marking time until they can get an airline job.

I recall an occasion where I was sat drinking tea with the chief tug pilot of a well known gliding club, and an fATPL holder (ex integrated I think) came in asking about tug flying. It was very clear that said Chief Pilot would not consider touching this chap, whose sole flying seemed to have been about getting the fATPL and showed no real interest in GA except as a route to his airline job.

G

[mad_jock]

I did wonder that myself G. I would have thought the cranfield Jetstream would have been in your sights.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I did wonder that myself G. I would have thought the cranfield Jetstream would have been in your sights.

I have seriously thought of that I must admit - the work of NFLC is quite interesting.

At the very least I need an IR, and if doing that, I may as well go back an do the ATPLs rather than just the IR writtens for all the difference it makes.

CPL/IR without ATPL writtens would be fairly pointless, just as a silly non-saving that limits you quite a lot.

At the time I was doing the writtens I had no expectation of being able to afford the time or money to do an IR in the timescale I'd need to do it before the exams ran out. In that I was correct, so probably lost nothing really as I'd still have to re-do the exams when I do get around to an IR.

Unless this vaunted simplified EASA IR actually happens? But I've seen no signs of it yet, just talk, and not much of that lately.

G

[mad_jock]

Well if you do, you can apply your engineering intelectual skill and answer the question that Jetstream pilots have beeing wanting to know for the last 25 years.

Which is.....

Why is it such a pig to land.

You will need the full IR to get a TP multicrew rating. You might be able to swing getting a MCC pass though with your previous flight test stuff.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Thanks guys - very helpful stuff.

Just for the record I do want to (eventually) become an airline pilot.

One question though: would I be right in saying that it is overall worthwhile doing my ATPL in Europe even with the ''excessive'' cost and bureaucracy? I've gathered, from looking through your posts, that the JAR ATPL includes CPL and IR exams, which isn't the case in other countries.

Thanks

[mad_jock]

If its where your intending to work there is no point fannying around doing it else where.

There are ways and means of reducing the cost by doing an IACO PPL first then starting the theory with one of the ground school distance learning schools while hour building abroad.

Then coming to an UK school for CPL and any country for your IR rating.

But you have to outway the savings by how sellable you will be afterwards in the market you want to work in.

Nobody seems to care about the PPL or the ground school. Interesting different hour building is sellable ie don't go flogging around FL. Do some big trips to unusual places eg fly from UK to some ****e hole in the north of Norway for a burger and come back through Finland. And FFS mention it on your CV.

CPL/IR they seem to like you to be at the same school. Some do, Some don't care, it comes from a comment from one of the fleet managers at flybe and others have agreed with it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well if you do, you can apply your engineering intelectual skill and answer the question that Jetstream pilots have beeing wanting to know for the last 25 years.

Which is.....

Why is it such a pig to land.

You will need the full IR to get a TP multicrew rating. You might be able to swing getting a MCC pass though with your previous flight test stuff.

The current head of NFLC at Cranfield is a Test Pilot and to my certain knowledge has been flying the Jetstream for at-least 21 years. He's also one of the best TPs I know on fixed wing handling qualities. If anybody knows - he will already!

As you say, to fly anything certified as multi-crew I'll need the IR and ATPL writtens. As for the MCC course, maybe I'd get an exemption, maybe not, but to be honest I'd do it anyway because I'd learn useful stuff. Same reasoning as my declining to ask for an exemption from any components of the CRI course for being a qualified university teacher - I might have missed something useful.

Under EASA, Test Pilots on aeroplanes above 2000kg, and also test flying instructors now require an IR. No rational reason for this (most of what EASA has tried to do in test flying has been regarded as daft across the whole flight test community, who EASA have promptly ignored), but for that reason alone I'll need to do one sometime, otherwise I'll be somewhat career limited.

G

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Haha! I like your thinking mad jock. But tbh, I think it would be a better idea to do my ATPL here in UK, (where CPL and IR are included) and then go and do these exotic trips after my training

Thanks

[mad_jock]

Well ask him then on your type rating. And let the rest of us know.

Not that it will do any of us any good mind.

[mad_jock]

You haven't quite grasped how it works.

Either you pay for a zero to hero course with oxford or CTC or the like. And you follow that methods syllabus.

Or you go the building block way

which is

PPL (IACO or JAR)

Ground school and exams and while you are doing that build your hours up to 150 total (which is what you do your interesting trips in). You can do your MEP class rating during this time and night qual.

Then MEP (if you don't have it) CPL and IR. Once you have the IR you can do the MCC.

At the end of that your will be whats called a frozen ATPL. Which just means your qualified to CPL, SPA ME IR, MCC which is exactly what the first option kicks you out with. Although you will have about 170 hours with the first one and 200 total with the second.

The get an ATPL you need to have 1500 hours total, 100 hours of night, 500 multi crew and a ATPL license skills test in a JAR25 multi crew aircraft.

You just don't have a training course which gets you to ATPL license.

[pudoc]

Numerous people have advised me that if I want to be a pilot in the UK, that I am to do all my flying in the UK. An acquaintance of mine went for an interview and a question he was asked is why did he hour build in the US if he wants to fly for a UK airline, he froze up and didn't know what to say and never got the job. Probably because he wasn't properly prepared for the interview (maybe??).

1000s of people prove me wrong, you can hour build in the US and still get jobs in what country you like (ignoring the fact there are few jobs). This was just advice I was given by several people, none of it is factual and none of them worked in recruitment it's just their opinion.

So many ways to get into the right seat it can be a big ol' minefield at times.

I can see only one reason to only do the CPL exams. Because you only want to do CPL type flying and have no interest in flying multi-crew aeroplanes. I'm in that category, and quite happy - but I can think of no other good reason. Even then, I do wonder if I shouldn't have done the ATPL writtens so that I have the chance to fly multi-crew in the future should I change my mind.

I see your point Genghis and it's one I agree with. I was just highlighting the possible scenarios he could be faced with and things he should be aware of. But nothing's set in stone as your example proves. As I said, it all depends on what the individual wants.

[mad_jock]

Its not that the hour building has been done abroad as such its more that its been drilling holes in the sky.

If you can say that you have done something with your hour building and not just gone up and down the East coast of FL with an occasional trip to lakeland and Ceda Key to see the mad auld burd in her taxi with her manky dog.

Its the fact that your mate froze up that was the issue. Not that he did his hour building in the US. Flying from one coast to the other and back is a completely different kettle of fish to burning holes in FL.

Suitable replys would have been.

Time constraints with working while training.
Wanted to fly coast to coast in the US.
Wx in the UK.
Wanted to visit places I wouldn't normally be able to visit.

I am sure you can see my drift.

Training in the UK yes I fully agree PPL/MEP/CPL and IR

Hour building go and do something interesting and novel, you only get to do it once. With hind sight I wish I had done something other than burning holes in FL it would have made my CPL/IR a alot easier as well.

[Slipstream86]

You just don't have a training course which gets you to ATPL license.Perhaps not at this moment in time. But it's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility the way things are going....£500K anyone?

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Ah ok I see mad jock! cheers.
pudoc, your pal should have just said something along the lines of: "I wanted to enhance my flying skills and see a bit of the world and see how things are done in other places - I find it exciting to travel to other places and learn new things" etc...etc...! haha 'Im sure thats the stuff they like to hear! lol

Stupid Q: ICAO means International Civil Avition Organisation... doesn't it? And that covers the whole world doesnt it? That's what international means, lots of nations. Well whats all this talk about ICAO PPL's and the like?! I don't understand! :ugh:

[mad_jock]

Not quite nearly everyone has signed up to it though, you will find out all about it and its sodding annexs and when and where they had there conferences during your ground school.

An ICAO ppl is one from a country which has signed up to it and has its minimum standard the same or better than the ICAO minimum.

You can have compliant and none compliant in the same country. eg the UK JAR PPL is compliant but the NPPL isn't. And FAA PPL is but sports license thing they have isn't.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

I see!!! Thank you for explaining that - has bugged me for a while. My lack of knowledge of all these expressions and acronyms always bites me in the ass in these dicussions, but I'm getting there ;)

cheers

[mad_jock]

Do a search for a book called LASORS by the CAA then print out the bits to do with the different licence requirements.

It has all the abbrevations and terms in a glossary.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Will do, thanks :ok:

[pudoc]

pudoc, your pal should have just said something along the lines of: "I wanted to enhance my flying skills and see a bit of the world and see how things are done in other places - I find it exciting to travel to other places and learn new things" etc...etc...! haha 'Im sure thats the stuff they like to hear! lol

Pretty much.

I feel it should all be done in the UK, but still there's nothing wrong with the US at all and I understand that's the only way some people can achieve their goals in life. And I've just noticed how far off topic we are, my bad.

[mad_jock]

Nah no bad, go with the flow threads develope down different directions.

You won't go wrong doing all your training in the UK and if you can afford the time to deal with the UK climate during training and hour building you will be a better pilot for it for working in UK airspace.