Mode 'S' & 8.33kHz

[SMAZ]

Evening fellow aviators.

I am trying to find out if it is worth upgrading to a 8.33kHz comm. When is it going to become mandatory for GA? Same question for the Mode 'S'.

any advice greatly appreciated.

[bookworm]

The EU states have an obligation to change all frequencies to 8.33kHz spacing by 2018. If you can manage using 25 kHz frequencies before then (so far, nothing below FL195 is 8.33), there's no urgency to upgrade.

[peterh337]

The EU states have an obligation to change all frequencies to 8.33kHz spacing by 2018

An obligation to who? Is it an EASA/Eurocontrol reg passed into EU law?

I thought it had been comprehensively proven that the 8.33 requirement is based wholly on the Euro job creation scheme whereby each country wants to retain its frequency allocation rights. The USA which is much bigger doesn't need 8.33.

[bookworm]

Is it an EASA/Eurocontrol reg passed into EU law?

It's a Eurocontrol draft regulation that will become law soon. As far as I can tell, it has gone to written procedure in SES Committee (http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regcomitology/index.cfm?do=search.documentdetail&yxM4RF055xOZ5azF+BQRGmKwfOF/A9Yqc+y7cTEznxADftvKFOKx2dvStAkgOQoq).

[peterh337]

That's going to cost GA a lot of money. More than Mode S in most cases.

A basic but good quality 8.33 radio with NAV like the KX165A is $4000 or so (I put one in fairly recently).

There are some cheaper options but they will require significant rewiring - as will fitting a 165A in place of a 155 (non A) for example.

I guess most people will throw in a GNS430 or 430W, bought off Ebay - if they haven't got one already. But that's more rewiring.

For the lower airways, this is a crazy proposal.

Won't one need two 8.33 radios for IFR?

[gasax]

Filser ATR833 is £1280, so reasonably cheap - so long as you need a new radio. If you don't then it is a lot of money that could/should be spent flying.

But maybe, just maybe commonsense will set it before 2018...................

[robin]

Yeh right....

[Rod1]

“Same question for the Mode 'S'.”

In the UK there are no planes to make Mode S compulsory for VFR flight, but it is likely to get harder over time to fly in controlled airspace. Most TMZ’s will require Mode S or radio coms.
As to 8.33 – experience says things will get cheaper the later you leave it.

Rod1

[robin]

Have Mode S txs got cheaper? they seem to have plateaued at a consistent level but have not come down appreciably

[rapidshot]

May be this helps

EUROCONTROL - Requirements for civil aircraft (http://www.eurocontrol.int/avionics/public/standard_page/16_Avionics_civil.html)

National AIP s ( sign up for free access)
EUROCONTROL - EAD Basic (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/cfmu/public/standard_page/ead_basic.html)

[Rod1]

The first quote I got from BK around 10 years ago – before the 330 launch - was £4000. You can now get one for around £1500. Several co’s are looking at low cost 8.33.

Rod1

[peterh337]

That's an interesting site, Rapidshot :ok:

Interesting for 8.33 it says

2 Sets of VHF Transceivers with 8,33 KHZ channel spacing

but those people who put in a GNS430 hoping that will do it will have to put in yet another 8.33 radio of some sort.

For me the solution would be to replace the 2nd KX155A radio with another KX165A... not cheap.

Also interesting what it says about PRNAV, which is a much more expensive dark cloud for IFR GA:

OPS approval required to fly P-RNAV

What OPS approval? GA is mostly non-AOC.

This bit

Currently being introduced (whilst no ECAC-wide mandate for the carriage of P-RNAV is foreseen, some States may require P-RNAV certification for IFR operations in notified terminal airspace).
For certain TMAs for aircraft that are not approved for P-RNAV operations conventional procedures may continue to be available as stated in national AIPs


is somewhat more encouraging because while it suggests that PRNAV will be limited to terminal airspace (TMAs?) which Europe is full of, it suggests that non-PRNAV traffic will be provided for. It has to be anyway because "State" aircraft will be exempted.

[Peter Gristwood]

Rod1

A lot of electronic gadgetry 10 years ago was very pricey, but you should look at more recent comparisons

4 years ago in 2008 when the proposal was to mandate Mode S the cost was £1500 or so. The CAA were looking at the low-cost option at 700 euros - remember?

The cost is still £1500 (+ fitting + fees) so it hasn't really come down at all in over 4 years. And the lo-cost tx was a non-starter.

[chevvron]

8.33khz: this was discussed at the UK Phraeology Working Group some time ago. The CAA stated they had no plans to issue 8.33khz frequencies for use below FL195 for at least 10 years and probably longer, all allocations being for use by Area Control Centres for en-route traffic.
There are about 5 allocations in UK Airspace so far.

Having 8.33 frequencies in use means that we have to uses 6 digits when referring to any frequency with more than 4 digits ie '122.3' can be stated as such but '125.25' has to be referred to as '125.250' and '123.225' as wrtten rather than be abreviated to '123.22' as previously; 25khz and 8.33khz* frequencies (*why? My old ICOM was set up for 12.5khz spacing which would have been adequate) have to be stated in full. I argued that as 8.33 spacing was unlikely to be used in class G airspace for many years, we could file a 'difference' with ICAO stating this rule would not apply to traffic in class G airspace below FL95, expecting the MOD rep to support this. Unfortunately he didn't, and as no-one else on the PWG represented GA/class G interests at the time (there was no FISO rep established then) pilots and ATSU's are lumbered with it.

[peterh337]

I don't think the UK can just file a difference to ICAO anymore because it signed up to the EU, and if Eurocontrol present a reg to the EU for lawmaking and it becomes EU law, then the UK has to obey it.

In the same way, EASA+EU can force the UK to file a difference to ICAO on something else.

Personally I would be a bit more concerned about needing 8.33 for IFR in CAS in Europe generally. The IFR community is getting lumbered with more and more equipment/approval costs and most of them are 4 or 5 digits, just for fun. None of them give you any flying functionality as such.

[bookworm]

Personally I would be a bit more concerned about needing 8.33 for IFR in CAS in Europe generally. The IFR community is getting lumbered with more and more equipment/approval costs and most of them are 4 or 5 digits, just for fun. None of them give you any flying functionality as such.

If you're talking about IFR then it's much easier. IFR in class A/B/C will require 8.33 radios from 1 Jan 2014.

[achimha]

Try switching your GNS430 to 8.33kHz... mine was accidentally setup like this and it drove me crazy. You have to turn the knob eternally to get to the desired frequency. If this ever comes, it will be a nightmare.

[peterh337]

If you're talking about IFR then it's much easier. IFR in class A/B/C will require 8.33 radios from 1 Jan 2014.

I am in the wrong business, clearly.

The interesting Q is how many 8.33 frequencies will actually be used below FL200 i.e. whether one 8.33 radio will do.

[Rod1]

“You have to turn the knob eternally to get to the desired frequency. If this ever comes, it will be a nightmare.”

If you have an integrated EFIS controlling your radio you can drop the frequency you want straight out of the GPS database into the radio, and even set up lists in advance. This tec works with several of the uncertified EFIS systems into several of the existing 8.33 radios. There are also black box radios in the pipeline which do not have any direct user interface and do not have to be panel mounted. The units are totally controlled by the EFIS and are likely to be a cheap solution if you have a compatible EFIS – Dynon and MGL both do this for example.

Rod1

[achimha]

Yes, I actually do have that capability but I think it is of very limited use. Normally ATC tells you "contact RADAR on 123.45" and you dial that frequency directly instead of first checking whether it's in the list of upcoming sectors and choose it. Some people even write it down before they start dialing it.

[jez d]

When it comes to 8.33kHz, the other regulator you need to throw into the melting pot, in addition to EASA, Eurocontrol and the CAA, is Ofcom.

Their risible 'Administered Incentive Pricing' proposal aims to force the aeronautical sector to switch to 8.33 by making 25-spaced frequencies prohibitively expensive for ground stations.

See here (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/licence-charges-2012/)

The squeeze is inexorable, in my opinion. 8.33 is on its way and unless you are planning on hanging-up your flying boots in the next five years I think it could be a false economy opting for a cheaper 25kHz radio.

Regards, jez

[peterh337]

I too have auto-tune but it's not of much use for the reasons given; it is much quicker to set the frequency by hand.

[LowNSlow]

According to the LAA the current situation is:


From 17 Nov 2013
• Manufacturers may not market radios
unless they are 8.33 capable.
• No aircraft may receive an initial CofA
or Permit unless any radios fitted are
8.33 capable.
• Any upgrade to aircraft radios must
include an 8.33 capability.
From 1 Jan 2014
• No aircraft may fly IFR in class A, B or C
airspace unless it is 8.33 capable.
• No aircraft may fly VFR in class A, B or C
airspace that is operating 8.33 channel
spacing unless it is 8.33 capable.
From 31 Dec 2017
• All aircraft radios operated in the EU must
be 8.33 capable.

I'm about to change aeroplanes so, as I am based within the Luton Zone I have to change out the Narco 810 that works perfectly well..... Thanks for nothing EASA :mad:

A bit of research has turned up the following:

Dittel Avionik KRT2 - £999
Funkwerk ATR 833 - £1,194
Becker AR6201 - £1,434

All fit a 2 1/4" instrument hole which is handy but will leave a Narco 810 sized hole in the panel.....

[Bob Upanddown]

Garmin Nav Com £3114 or £3834 inc VAT.

[OpenCirrus619]

Does it actually say that "all aircraft must be 8.33 capable", or "all radios fitted to aircraft must be 8.33 capable"?

OC619

[LowNSlow]

Bob Upanddown, I only need a COM not a NAV / COM, but I would prefer to replace the Narco rather than move the radio location.

OC619, the wording was copied directly from the LAA article.

[Bob Upanddown]

Garmin Nav Com £3114 or £3834 inc VAT.

Most light GA with a full C of A will have a Nav Com or two. Most of the club aircraft I see have either old King 170 series or newer KX155/165 or the Narco equivalents. Even if they have a 430, they might have an old 170 series as second Nav Com.

So, for someone with an IMC (or IR(R)), the potential cost of going 8.33 compliant might bebetween £6k and £9K?? plus installation. Total spend might be 50% of the value of the aircraft. Will the aircraft be worth any more?? No but the ones not 8.33 capable in 3 years time will be worthless.

[bookworm]

I'm about to change aeroplanes so, as I am based within the Luton Zone I have to change out the Narco 810 that works perfectly well.....

I don't follow that. The Luton Zone is class D and doesn't operate 8.33. So is the issue simply that you need to change radio, and that if you do so after 17 Nov 2013 the new one must be 8.33?

Thanks for nothing EASA

This one actually nothing to do with EASA, but part of the European Commission's Single European Sky stuff. That doesn't make the cost less, it just changes the destination of the missiles you'll want to launch...

[proudprivate]

And although you can say a lot of things about SESAR and wasting an atrocious amount of money, it's even difficult to blame the 8.33kHz debâcle on entirely on them.

A good short explanation is given here (http://www.roger-wilco.net/8-33-khz-channel-spacing-%E2%80%93-what-is-this/)

The main reason is a lack of willingness to cooperate at European Level and to keep each of the dust gathering telecom frequency managing departments, well shielded from their political masters by a smokescreen of radio-physics and geography.

My country is not without blame either : Our DefMin is even better than its French counterpart when it comes to frequency hoarding and bull****ting at technical meetings.

Clearly small GA-interests were largely ignored. It would actually make sense and be possible to keep the lower flight levels and departure / approach frequencies on 25 kHz spacing. But hey, you don't expect them to do an effort for "those stinkin' rich people and their aeroplanes".

[A and C]

I am told that Trig are soon to release an 8.33 NAV/COM that will fit into a KX155 rack without and wiring changes.

........... I will have four please !

[Echo Romeo]

I've got a Narco Com 120 in my Terrier, despite certain folk slating them mine has a good range and the audio clarity is absolutely fine, I would argue it's as good if not better than my mates Becker.

So should the time come when I have to replace it, does anyone know of a budget make that will fit that size tray and avoid wiring alterations. I'm not to keen on the round type such as the Becker, they're a bit fiddly.

[A and C]

You must have the only satisfactory Narco 120 in captivity !

Unforunatly there is nothing on the market at the moment that is a direct replacment and as the Narco is not very common it is unlikely that anyone will make one.

i have seen a Trig 8.33 radio retrofitted to a Piper cub, the fact that the control head and radio are seperate units made the instalation very easy and the owners are very pleased with the performance of the unit.

A Becker was considered for this job but the Trig won due to instalation issues.

Becker have a very good reputation and i think that any sound quality issues your mate has are likely to be due to issues outside the Becker radio.

[Piper.Classique]

Certainly the Trig transponder is good quality, if rhe radio is as good that will be the way to go. We have limited panel space (cub) but also limited cash.....
So I intend to wait and see what changes, as my current radio works fine.

[Echo Romeo]

You must have the only satisfactory Narco 120 in captivity !

I kid you not, it is very satisfactory and I'd be loathed to get rid of it just because EASA, CAA or whoever dictate I have to :{

Re my mates Becker, it was professionally installed so I'd be surprised if there are any other issues, 'could be the intercom! I don't know, but all I can say is that I wouldn't swap.

[peterh337]

Note that a KX155 has a different connector to a KX155A. Nobody IMHO should make a transponder compatible with a KX155 because that is a very old radio; about 17 years since discontinuation AFAIK.

If you have a KX155A then a KX165A/8.33 is a direct swap. 5 minutes.

[A and C]

A KX155A will slide into a 28V KX155 instalation ( but the backlighting won't work)

The KX155/165 swap will work if you have an audio panel but not in single radio instalations that use the KX155 audio amp.

[Shoestring Flyer]

I would have thought that a direct slot-in for the Garmin SL30/SL40 range was the obvious target for TRIG to aim for with an 8.33 Com. Or at least if not slot-in, to go for the same tray dimensions.
As others have said the KX155 is a very old piece of kit.

[A and C]

The KX155 may be an old bit of kit but it is robust and reliable, that is why it is still the standard radio in most UK training aircraft and therefore a slot in replacement that requires no changes in the rack will make a slide in replacement an instant sucsess.

Just remember the Garmin 430 only fitted into the same space in the rack that a KX170 occupied and that I'd now the fleet standard for touring aircraft.

Slide in replacements are all about the size of the market, across my fleet of three aircraft for rental I will need four radios, the question is are Bendix King interested enough to ramp up KX165 production and drop the price to make worthwhile to replace all the KX155's with KX165A's or is Trig going to steal the market from under them ? Looking at the way Bendix/King have lost the GA plot over the past fifteen years or so my money is likely to be going to Trig despite me being more that happy with the service I have had from my Bendix / King equipment over the years.

The other problem is that most single KX155 insatations require an audio amp in the radio, that the KX165A has not got so perhaps Bendix king need to look at producing a KX155B with 8.33 & audio amp and getting one of there European dealers to write an EASA approves Mod for the instalation changes on any aircraft............ It is only if they do this that they will retain any foothold in the GA avionincs market.

[LowNSlow]

bookworm, thanks for pointing that out!!

Basically, if you are not going to fly IFR and stay below 4,500' over a large swath of the UK then it is very likely that you will not need 8.33 until the blanket installation required Europe wide by the end of 2017.

I had a chat with some of the purveyors of avionics at Sywell on Friday and one chap reckoned that a good Narco 810 should fetch around £500 on the second hand market which will be a useful offset to the £1,000 - £1,500 + fitting for a new radio. I suppose as the final countdown ticks away the non 8.33 units will be worth less.

[Sam Rutherford]

Is the 31 December 2017 date still looking likely - or is there anything to suggest it may be delayed?

Two years to go, so the clock is ticking...