RAAF Mirage 3 losses

[tartare]

Was up at Fightertown with Little Tartare looking at the jets the other day.
What struck me about the Mirage 3 (beautiful looking jet) was what appeared to be the large number of fatal crashes when introduced into RAAF service.
Almost one a year, in some cases two a year.
Have searched the interweb as to why - but not much luck yet.
I wondered if there were any common factors?
Certainly the cockpit feels very cramped - slightly more so than other fast-jet ones I've been in... I'd hate to have to eject from that.
Can any ex-Mirage pilots shed any light?

[rjtjrt]

There is some information here :-

ADF Serials - RAAF A3 GAF Mirage III (http://www.adf-serials.com/3a3.shtml)

John

[OK465]

That is fascinating reading. :ok:

Had a USAF friend who did an exchange tour in RAAF Mirage III's. Said it was the best duty he ever had.

[Heathrow Harry]

almost every 50's & 60's fast jet had what would now be considered unacceptable loss rates

In 1965-73 the US lost to ACCIDENTS only in S E Asia

F-4 Phantom 62 aircraft
F-105 63
F-100 45

Thread Military Aircraft Accident Statistics [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-75284.html) has some horror stories about the Harrier

1975-93 the USAF had 204 F-16A "Class A" Accidents

Quote:- Formation position, phase of flight and primary cause of the mishap indicate that maneuvering, cruise and low-level phases account for the majority of the mishaps (71%),

air-to-air engagements associated with a higher proportion of pilot error (71%) than was air-to-ground (49%).

Engine failure was the number one cause of mishaps (35%),

collision with the ground the next most frequent (24%).

Pilot error was determined as causative in 55% of all the mishaps.

Pilot error was often associated with other non-pilot related causes. Channelized attention, loss of situational awareness, and spatial disorientation accounted for approximately 30% of the total pilot error causes found. Pilot demographics, flight hour/sortie profiles, and aircrew injuries are also listed.

Fatalities occurred in 27% of the mishaps, with 97% of those involving pilot errors.
------------------------------------
The Indian AF is currently writing off a plane a month


according to Wikipedia :-

F-104 Starfighter Some operators lost a large proportion of their aircraft through accidents, although the accident rate varied widely depending on the user and operating conditions; the Luftwaffe lost about 30% of aircraft in accidents over its operating career,[/URL] and Canada lost over 50% of its F-104s. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter#cite_note-Fricker_p92-33)

The Spanish Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Air_Force), however, lost none.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter#cite_note-Fricker_p97-35) The Class A mishap rate (write off) of the F-104 in USAF service was 26.7 accidents per 100,000 flight hours as of June 1977, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter#cite_note-Bowman_p._21-37)(30.63 through the end of 2007] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter#cite_note-USAF_Safety_.26_Inspection_Center-38)), the highest accident rate of any USAF Century Series fighter. By comparison, the rate of the Convair F-102 Delta Dagger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_F-102_Delta_Dagger) was 14.2/100,000 (13.69 through 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter#cite_note-Bowman_p._21-37)), and the mishap rate for the North American F-100 Super Sabre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-100_Super_Sabre) was 16.25 accidents per 100,000 flight hours.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter#cite_note-39"]

[StopStart]

OK465 - that wouldn't be WZ would it by any chance?
My father did an exchange to W'Town back in the 70s as a Medical Officer. I remember him bring involved in a couple Mirage III crash investigations.....

[ehwatezedoing]

the Luftwaffe lost about 30% of aircraft in accidents over its operating career, and Canada lost over 50% of its F-104s.
Something need to be put back into its contest here.
The Canadians CF-104 had the highest flying time, close to 6000hrs per airframe versus something like 2000 for the Lufwaffe.

:suspect:

Anyway, back to the Mirage III.

[OK465]

StopStart:

Yes that would be WZ. :ok:

Semi-famous picture of him & his WSO standing by the tail (what was left of it) of his F-4E. :eek:

I took him on his T-37 student cross country way back when and flew against him a few times in a couple of the aircraft Heathrow Harry mentions, when WZ was flying Reserve F-16's.

RAAF fighter exchange was one of the all-time good deals. Enjoyed hearing about his exploits in the Mirage...and on the ground. :E

[D John]

I was talking with a young USMC F-18 pilot at the Reno Air Races a couple of years ago, he was looking forward to his exchange posting to fly with the RAAF, said it was the best ("a dream") posting for a US F-18 pilot.

I still remember that RAAF Mirage losses in the late 1960s and early 1970s seemed to be fairly common, not all were related to problems with the aircraft.

cheers,

-John:ok:

[StopStart]

Nice one - he gave me the model of his F4E that his crew chief (I think) had made for him when I was an awe struck 8 yr old back in 1977! Great guy - last caught up with him a couple of years ago when I was passing through Hill AFB.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/061006-F-1234S-053.jpg

:ok:

[4Greens]

The Scimitar in RN service lost close to 50% of those built. There wasnt even a war on.

[brakedwell]

Not forgetting 890 Meteors were lost.

[NutLoose]

The Scimitar in RN service lost close to 50% of those built. There wasnt even a war on.


Hmmm have you seen the film of the sad demise of Cmd Russell as he went over the side but was unable to get the canopy open, the film is on the Pathe site, I won't post the link because it shows the poor guy dying... The press were there to film the arrival of the first Scimitar on the Carrier.... I couldn't believe it had actually been shown on newsreels at the time.... Tragic loss. :(

[TBM-Legend]

RAN lost nearly 50% of their A-4's in accidents...

[Samuel]

When I was in ANZUK 1974-76, one of the many other nationals of my acquaintance was a RN guy who told me he was the only survivor of his wings course, all peacetime flying casualties.

[Wiley]

RAN lost nearly 50% of their A-4's in accidents... In the days when the RAN had FW FJ and HMAS Melbourne had a flat top, the word was that RAN A4 pilots were not allowed to land on USN carriers because they didn't have the proper USN certification and security clearance etc - and USN pilots weren't allowed to land on 'Melbourne' because it was too ****ing dangerous!! (Melbourne had a VERY small deck.) The Tracker, (the RAN's ASW FW aircraft after the Gannet) had a ridiculously small wing tip clearance on the Melbourne's island, even if absolutely on centreline.

A mate went in off Melbourne's bow in a A4 after a cold cat launch and waited until Melbourne steamed over him before exiting the cockpit (from about 90' under, I'm told). He said afterwards that as he waited to pop the canopy and get himself out, he kept saying to himself: "Thank God it's not the 'Enterprise'."

Back to Mirages, there's at least one Oz ex Mirage driver still alive and well (JK) who stepped out of a Miracle twice, in JK's case, both times into the sea - and not a balmy flat (nor warm) sea either.

[Trojan1981]

Hmmm have you seen the film of the sad demise of Cmd Russell as he went over the side but was unable to get the canopy open, the film is on the Pathe site, I won't post the link because it shows the poor guy dying... The press were there to film the arrival of the first Scimitar on the Carrier.... I couldn't believe it had actually been shown on newsreels at the time.... Tragic loss.

That truley is a sad piece of footage. It's still not known why he didn't eject. He was unable to release the canopy due to fouling of the release, but the seat would still have worked, reportedly; even under water. Also, there was no diver to use the external release or help to the pilot to escape. Alas, times have changed.

A mate went in off Melbourne's bow in a A4 after a cold cat launch and waited until Melbourne steamed over him before exiting the cockpit (from about 90' under, I'm told). He said afterwards that as he waited to pop the canopy and get himself out, he kept saying to himself: "Thank God it's not the 'Enterprise'."


Second time that happened I think the pilot ejected before the aircraft even got wet! His story is just as gripping! ;)

Seriously, aircraft reliability and safety has come leaps and bounds since the days of the Mirage. Compare the records of Wessex or even Seaking to Seahawk.

[tartare]

Interesting thread - questions answered... tks guys.

[4Greens]

After Russell's accident all the systems were modified to allow underwater ejection.

[NutLoose]

I wonder if the fact the Helicopter was overhead prevented his use of the seat. :(

[HamFan]

Then there was the knuck who stepped out on departure from, I believe, a departure from YPDN to the east after a flame-out. The jet stabilised after the pilto ad seat left and dead-sticked itself nicely into a mudflat. Last time I was in DN, the jet was still in the hangar.

[Trojan1981]

I wonder if the fact the Helicopter was overhead prevented his use of the seat.

Yeah, that was dicussed elsewhere. It's a shame if that contributed. A nasty set of circumstances. Thank goodness things have evolved.

[GreenKnight121]

Then there was the knuck who stepped out on departure from, I believe, a departure from YPDN to the east after a flame-out. The jet stabilised after the pilto ad seat left and dead-sticked itself nicely into a mudflat. Last time I was in DN, the jet was still in the hangar.

Seems to be a characteristic of pure deltas... as shown by USAF F-106A # 58-0787.
Full story here, as well as lots of pics (including the belly after retrieval): F-106 Delta Dart - 58-0787 Pilotless Landing (http://www.f-106deltadart.com/71fis_PilotlessLanding_580787.htm)


On 2 February 1970, while assigned to the71st FIS at Maelstrom AFB, Montana, its pilot ejected during an inflight emergency. The pilot somehow got himself into a flat spin — considered generally unrecoverable in an F-106 — and he did what the flight handbook said to do — get out of it, i.e. eject. After the pilot did just that, 58-0787 recovered itself from this “unrecoverable” situation. In a vain attempt to break the spin, the pilot had lowered half flaps, rolled in takeoff trim, and throttled the engine back to an approach power setting. After the ejection, the aircraft recovered from the spin on its own, and established a wings level low rate descent under reduced power to the ground. Ground effect broke its rate of descent, and it settled into a near-perfect gentle belly landing in a farmer’s snow-covered cornfield.
When the local sheriff came upon the scene, the engine was still running. The aircraft was situated on a slight incline, and was creeping forward slowly under the thrust of its still-running engine, as the snow compressed to ice under it. Concerned about where it might be headed, the sheriff didn’t think he could wait for the recovery team to get there from Malstrom which was about 50 miles away; so he got himself connected to the aircraft’s squadron for engine shut down instructions before he entered the cockpit to secure the engine.


A depot team from McClellan AFB recovered the aircraft and it was eventually returned to service. When the 71st FIS was disbanded in 1971, 58-0787, now famously known as the “Cornfield Bomber”, was transferred to the 49th FIS, where it finished out its operational service life. Pilots of the 49th FIS would occasionally run into ex-71st FIS guys at William Tell and rag them unmercifully about the “emergency” so dire that the plane landed itself.
58-0787 is now on permanent display in its 49th FIS markings at the USAF Museum at Wright Patterson AFB, where its story is told in the exhibit. While the 49th FIS Eagle jocks are reportedly glad to see their squadron immortalized in this way for millions to see, they would prefer to see it made more clear that it was the 71st, and not one of theirs, who jumped out of this perfectly good aircraft.
Sent To The Cornfield! « (http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/sent-to-the-cornfield/)

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/580787pilotless12.jpg?w=655&h=433

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/580787pilotless4.jpg?w=655&h=505

[Heathrow Harry]

that looks like a bloody good landing TBH

[GreenKnight121]

Yeah... the F-106 handles pretty well without a pilot. ;)

Many of them were later used as remote-control drone targets.