Hi All.

I am an Air NZ second officer and have been for the past 5 years on the 747/777. I live in Christchurch, and am at this stage looking at another 5 years untill an airbus A320 FO job out of CHC. That's correct, an A320 FO job. (that is 10 years as an S/O) this is best guess work, and could well be longer.

Please note that this is going to be standard at Air NZ from now on. At the moment an A320 Captain slot at Air NZ is about 20 years from joining. I Repeat , 20 YEARS for an A320 Command!!

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I went to Jetstar now, how long would it take to command??? 3 years maybe?? compared to 20???? this is realistic. I am aware there is a well deserved pay rise on the horizon at Jetstar, which I am sure will overtake Air NZ base pay in the short term(wont take much).

What I am pointing out here, is that if you are looking at Air NZ for a long time career, think again, there are far superior options, you do the figures, don't be fooled, Air NZ maybe a fools game.

Officially Air NZ is now the slowest progressing Airline in the world, it has overtaken Air Canada, depressing I know, but correct.

This post is purely for information only.

All the Best Comrads
Bushwackernz

The training bubble for the 787 and greater than average retirements over the next few years should bring some relief. Might get you into the A320, but it's unlikely to be the left one.

If its the left seat you desire ASAP then your future lies elsewhere.

The only way to a quick command is to either join an airline with a high turnover or one that is expanding. High turnover = poor conditions. Good conditions = low turnover. There is also the danger of joining a new airline that is expanding just until you join. With relatively young crew, it will take some time to get a steady stream of retirements and the new joiner will spend even more time in the right seat.

Simple mathematics would say that in an airline that is neither expanding nor contracting will have crew spend the same ratio of average career time in each position as the ratio of pilots in those positions. For example, if the average age of joining is 30 and average time of retirement 60, there is a career of 30 years. If the crew numbers are 1/3 Second Officer, 1/3 First Officer, 1/3 Captain, then you can expect to spend 1/3 of your time in each position. That is, 10 years in each rank. If the airline is expanding, quick promotion. Airline shrinking, slower promotion.

Now, if you join an airline that expands rapidly for 5 years and the average age of the crew is young so no retirements, and they stop expanding, you could be an F/O (or S/O) for a VERY long time.

These low-cost/pay airlines are kind of like a pyramid selling scheme for crew. Get in quick, get a quick command, and you are sweet, as the captain pay may be well less than the 'legacy' airlines, but you are on that captain pay for way, way longer. Last one in and you are pretty much screwed.

Are you interested in command or lifestyle/remuneration?

If its just about command go to Jetstar etc, or even stay at the links.

Personally Im not too worried about command, Ive had it in previous jobs. Ive also done more interesting flying. For me its all about the terms and conditions, and for that ANZ is hard to beat. Heaps of time off, good money, company doesnt muck you around too much.

For me ANZ is far better than the alternatives.

I thought QANTAS mainline was the slowest progressing airline in the world!

Definite trend here of course.

I thought QANTAS mainline was the slowest progressing airline in the world!
Nah, you go from SO on the A330 to FO on the A320 in <4 years, then its only 2-3 years to command, after which you can come back to the Q and pick up your FO spot on the A380. Not slow at all.

Trust me mate, terms and conditions are far far more important than progression. FO / CAPTAIN for a sh*t airline or SO / FO for Air New Zealand. I think that I would sit fat dumb and happy as an SO, you would be taking a pay cut to go to Jetstar as an FO, would be a minimum of 3 years to command and by then the expansion may have stopped and you might end up stuck as an FO at Jetstar :{

20 years next to grandad and their WW2 era CRM gets a bit tedious.

I'd hate to be in the back of a 380 at QF or in the right seat of a 330 purely for this reason!

Pilots by their very nature are ambitious and their comes a time when you need to flee the nest and taste the rewards and challenges of being a commander.

None of us joined an airline to sit up the back or in the right seat forever.

I'd happy with anything under 12 years.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but on the subject of Jetstar, does anyone have any inside goss as to if and when an improved contract will be offered to the pilots based in NZ?

Is there any recruiting happening for NZ at the moment?

20 years next to grandad and their WW2 era CRM gets a bit tedious.

I'd hate to be in the back of a 380 at QF or in the right seat of a 330 purely for this reason!

you obviously have no idea what the culture is like on the 380 so you prefer to sit back & throw stones :rolleyes: very droll. :hmm:
I've been pleasantly surprised with things in that department - although a few are starting to slip through... :suspect:

From what I understand the 767/747 fleets have been purged of the A team who now are part of club 380 :cool:

Anywy we can have a thread on here about another airline can we? :hmm:

The golden days at AirNZ have long gone. Expect to be an SO or 320 FO for 20 years. Thats the cold hard reality. Some junior drivers are looking to leave Air NZ for that reason. Don't like it? Leave. The system won't change any time soon. There are some pretty bitter people out there.

Anyone hanging in the wings on an illusive "yes letter" should look at Pac Blue or Jet Star. At least the hands on time is recognised by EK which will give you the option to move on. AirNZ SOs don't really have that option.

By the way is anyone going to mention the recent reinterview of some in the hold pool? Starts in May confirmed with more to follow later in the year.

When you look at the demography of all legacy airlines then you will see that the flat lining is only a matter of time before there will be huge surge through the ranks. The slow down is really a product of the change in retirement ages.

The Air NZ pilots getting onto the Airbus LHS are all approaching 50 and those getting to the B767 and B777 are approaching 60. This is a huge bubble moving through but stalled by the pensioners not leaving the airline.

When this bubble finally bursts it is all going to hell in a hand basket with the movement expected.

Starts in May confirmed with more to follow later in the year.

New hire course for 5 advertised recently, (not sure of the fleet, but would assume the 777)

Also heard that that could be this years quota.

Starts are on 777, another course is planned for later in the year, some guys already pencilled in on it.

This is a huge bubble moving through but stalled by the pensioners not leaving the airline.


The pensioners? why should they leave?
People will always do whats best for them and their family, it's part of being a successful animal and has been so for 40,000 years+.
People who spend time moaning about those who stay on after 60 are wasting their own time and energy. Just forget about it 'cause human nature aint about to change in a hurry.

and of course when those currently whinging about the old farts in cockpit get to that age, they'll all stay on as long as possible too... 'it happened to me, it's your turn', 'i've got 3 ex's and 4 rugrats to support' and 'retire? the boss doesn't want me under her feet for the next 20 years' etc.

Being S/o = shame being one at ANZ = good luck suckers :{

Bitching moaning, bitching moaning! Everyone thinks they are owed something these days. All the posts here are an example of what the Indusitry today has become. To the S/O who whinges why he isn't a Captain yet, shows you are not ready to be one!!! And if you don't like it....... Tough!

Mmmmm you sound allot like a CX A-scaler who got his command in 3 years, does every sector and can't understand why no-one has a beer with him on an overnight.

well mate...back in the late 70,s early 80s...tried 5000 times to get on with ANZ
.......at the time,you essentially needed ....a letter from the pope...one from the prime minister....a "good bloke" letter from Sir Arthur Porritt..... have had tea and crumpet with Muldoons wife .....and graduated from Auckland boys Grammer.... with Honours
.............none of which I had,could steal or bribe for....so I left......it hasnt been a bad ride...... my advice,...make your own flying career,dont let anyone else make for u......its not that bad on the "outside"..............and ...no whinging,it wont do you any favours

The only people that could have an idea would be those that have done both, S/O and Command at a LCC/other operator.

There are guys/girls that have done exactly that... Air NZ S.Os have left before you..

Everyone thinks they are owed something these days.

No everybody doesn't, but screw you if I'm already at the top... nice.. I'm sure your a dream to fly with...

With no definite retirement age, as a certain court case set precedent for I see your pain... Sure the older generation do deserve to stay there.. but quite rightly as has been said, they probably got their commands after 3-4 years...
Did they even have S.O positions back in those days?

It's not the Air NZ S.Os that are the suckers.. they deserve a shot, but through unfortunate timing, you probably won't see a command this side of 60. Might explain why most people leaving the links are off to Virgin/Jetstar/Cobham...

Air NZ Human Resources won't see this as a problem as they've already counted on some of you leaving and have started a cadet scheme in time for the planned hump in 10 years.

It comes down to this, whats more important? Lifestyle or a Command..?

You can have a (jet) command based in NZ, however the conditions aren't Air NZ... and they aren't Emirates but they are very livable...

Capt link hog.... one of the more amateurish contributions Ive read here in a while.

Hey PB..like most legacy carriers mate...you dont have the space shuttle type rating mate, thats where you fell down...:ok:

The only way you can possibly be disgruntled is if you feel you have been sold a lie.

If you join Uncle Koru, as an SO, you have a very good idea of your potential career path.....be that 20 or 30yrs to heavy jet command (the actual time is irrelevant)

Do your homework and make your choice.....and suck it up or leave!

If stripes on you shoulders, a dinner plate for a watch & a big chest for all your medals & bar stories is what you're after go elsewhere.

Gate 15L stole my thunder but it's a lifestyle choice and the choice is yours.

We (pilots) are not special cases......promotion, location & restructuring effect almost every vocation.

Oh whoa is me, I'm an 777SO.....quite frankly I'd rather that than A320FO, who has to work multiple sectors 5 days week.

This job is not about flying (anymore) nor hours in your logbook (if anyone still has a logbook?)......it's about lifestyle.

Perhaps you'd all be happy if everyone got 4-stripes (you could identify the Captain by his zimmerframe)

The grass is always greener....until you get there and realise that field, like yours, is filed with cow pats

This whole thread appears more about ego than substance?

sand dune sam......youve read the script mate...and I beleive that "rating" would have turned the tide for sure!!!!.......but the kiwi space programme was just a dream in the wind

some of these young fellas will learn the youth and skill will eventually turn to old age and treachery.....some of us get good at it.....life is a gr8 meat pie and cold tinnie....

some of these young fellas will learn the youth and skill will eventually turn to old age and treachery.....some of us get good at it.....life is a gr8 meat pie and cold tinnie....

Pure class PB, pure class..now say after me "the french can't build jets..":E

H1....Yeah mate...never a truer word spoken.....you would think that after being on this thing the same amount of time it takes to chug 987,321 tinnies I would have a handle on it....but just about evey other day its

WTF!!! IS THIS THING DOING NOW????.........

Go Hurricanes!!

I think by space shuttle rating he was referring to the B1900D as operated by airnz link with the purest most Zen form of SOPs.

mattij...I have flown the 1900 A-B Models .....they looked like space shuttles...and probably flew like them....get a kick out of the number of trim tabs the new ones have

"Quote"...Give me variety and realistic progression mixed with a bunch of good bastards that enjoy what they do and are always up for a beer on an overnight any day of the week!

cheeky buggar for sure....mate..when you were swinging in your dads bags ,....I was loading them.....

with a bunch of good bastards that enjoy what they do and are always up for a beer on an overnight

Well a good bastard certainly is an improvement to barns, green grassy fields and wooly flocks of NZs finest.

Personally I prefer drinking with a good bloke than a bastard though. Then again we all know Kiwis are not very fussy :D

To all the Air NZ SOs who don't like the job. Please leave and I will happily do it. Thanks :ok:

To the originator of the post.....if you are one of the "younger" S/Os, your long term prospects and total career earnings at NZ may be better than you think. With many long term F/Os now into their 50s, their actual length of time as a wide body Captain will be quite limited....indeed some have told me they are not expecting a command before they retire.
That points to "the bubble" of retirements expected within the next 10 years meaning commands earlier, and for a longer period for the current "young guys". Admittedly that may be 15 or 20 years after joining, but for some that could mean a widebody command in their mid to late 40s, as opposed to the current late 50s or not at all.
I've been continually downgrading my own career expectations....maybe a 767 command, or posssibly a 787 before I'm 60, but I had the misfortune to work for a couple of now defunct airlines, so I don't have a lot of years left.
As everyone else has advised, it's all about choices. I doubt anyone ever promised you quick promotion in Air NZ...afterall, even the early batches of S/Os did up to 10 years in that role. Be thankful you have CHC living costs, not AKL ones, but if you want to get a quick command, then go elsewhere. If it's Jetstar or PacBlue, remember that once you have the jet command, that will be it. No further advancement until you retire (unless you leave NZ) At least at Air NZ the carrot of a "big jet" is always there.
Swings and roundabouts....evaluate the options and take your pick.
I'm staying put, as a lifestyle choice. It's not about the aircraft type or even the seat I sit in...it's about where I get the best money/days off/lifestyle balance. I choose to live in NZ, and compared to other occupations , I think I do ok.
Cheers
DC

Speaking of lifestyle...does anyone know the current payscale and conditions for the Air NZ regional airlines?
Thanks in advance for any information.

Hi there,

Read the April 2012 addition of 'Pacific Wings' - an article about becoming an AirNZ pilot. There is a table outlining time-to-command with Regionals as well as a base pay figure for Link F/O's (taken from Eagle's rates I believe)

Thanks Scanman, I will look into that. :)

So when will Air NZ interview again? If youre a Captain in the Link group wanting to move onto the Jets, what are the chances of getting an interview in the next 3 years?

If it's anything like 20 years ago forget it, there's no chance as many of us found out!

Hi there,

It depends on the status of the hold pool. When (if) the 787 arrives along with the rest of the A320's there will be a requirement for more pilots due to fleet expansion and the likely introduction of new routes. These positions will be filled by 'Yes Letter' candidates in the hold pool. If there are still vacancies, then one would assume that they interview and hire.

As for the amount of people in the hold pool, I have no idea so I can't help you there sorry.

The other thing to remember is the expansion in Mt Cook that we'll see over the next few years with up to 12 -600 ATR's arriving to be based in Auckland. Recruitment-wise what this means is that (because of Recruit-to-Group) the Regional airlines together will be hiring fairly steadily in coming years.

I was speaking with a mainline AirNZ pilot involved with recruitment and they said that in years past, it wasn't uncommon for the Link carriers to (collectively) hire 5-6 people per year. In 2012 alone they're looking at employing 80+. I guess that puts things into perspective.

So to answer your question - it depends on the amount of people in the hold pool and whether or not AirNZ exercise their options on aircraft they've ordered.

scanman24

A couple of things to keep in mind regarding mainline recruitment.

Firstly, the arrival of the 787 and a320 is not a fleet expansion, rather it's a fleet replacement. As this is the case I wouldn't hold your breath on any extra vacancies being created during this time due to aircraft being added to the fleet (although the 2 options taken on the 787 late last year may help). There is however a large number of ageing pilots and I think it is fair to say that natural attrition due to age is finally taking place. We are already starting to see some of the over 65s who have spent a few years in the other seat move on and the majority of pilots still retire at or before 65 anyway. To give you an idea of the current situation there are around 10 777 captains retiring before the year ends and I believe this will be the norm for at least the next 5 years, if anything this rate will increase.

Secondly, Air New Zealand likes to keep around 50 people in the hold pool. I'm guessing with the latest recruitment and the one towards the end of year minus a few other who have left, the hold pool must be down to around 30-40 people. This being the case I think you can expect to see at least one or two interviews before the years out. With the reasons mentioned above I also think there will be a steady flow of interviews from this point on. I don't like to put numbers down but I'm picking about 150-200 new pilots over the next 5 years, solely due to age and medical retirement.

Hope this helps.

Does any on have a copy of the Pacific Wings article? My news shop has run out :(

I am also keen to move back over the ditch, what sort of schedule do Air NZ So's have? How long away, days off etc.

Thanks!

The article is available online through the AirNZ aviation institute website.

http://www.aviationinstitute.co.nz/ai/assets/So-you-want-to-be-an-Air-NZ-Pilot-PACIFIC-WINGS-LAYOUT.pdf

Firstly, the arrival of the 787 and a320 is not a fleet expansion,

and the 60 pilots presently on the 747 who will have to fit into the system when it finally departs - if and when the 787 arrives