Sacked RAF Liable to Call Up for 18 Years

[Melchett01]

So just what is an individual's reserve liability these days? If the Telegraph reporting is correct, Air Manning are doing yet more to endear themselves to people by sacking them and then trying to hold them to an 18 year reserve liability:

Sacked RAF airmen have accused the Ministry of Defence of double standards after being told they are liable for call up at any time over the next two decades despite being axed.

Sacked RAF liable to call up for 18 years - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9190492/Sacked-RAF-liable-to-call-up-for-18-years.html)

Once again, it does rather appear to be Defence on the cheap. To my simple mind, if you sack someone because that post no longer exists that is fine. To then hold that individual to a call up to return suggests that your reasons for sacking them in the first place are not valid because there appears to continue to be a requirement to fill that post or duty. Would that potentially count as unfair dismissal?

Is this yet more Manning incompetence - once you've gone we can't dick you around but we can make life uncomfortable? My boss is an ex Army desk officer; on more than one occassion he has stated that for all the Army's faults - and he is man enough to admit there are plenty - if APC Glasgow treated it's personnel in the way that Air Manning treats RAF personnel, the individuals in question would have rightly been fired and then fed to the wolves.

With that in mind, just what is the RAF's reserve liability these days? And what is the chance of enforcing it ... especially if they don't know where you are? And should they enforce it, what is the likelihood of a recalled individual actually being any use after equipment, procedures and regs have moved on? For me, once I'm gone, then I'm gone, letters marked OHMS returned to sender.

[salad-dodger]

For me, once I'm gone, then I'm gone, letters marked OHMS returned to sender.

like he said ^^^^^^^^^

[Pontius Navigator]

Would it make a difference if you had:

a. A small annual tax-free retainer,

b. A 2-week paid summer camp outside of school holidays and relevant to your job/trade,

c. Status, ie indulgence flights, access to cheap shopping, cheap haircuts, station messes, medical services, etc?

Oh I forgot, that would cost money . . .

Of course they could save some money by sacking another 1000 people which would provide for up to 26000 reserves.

[Dengue_Dude]

I actually applied for redundancy in 1993 and (fortunately) was accepted.

I left aged 43 but was still on the Reserve List until 55.

It completely sucks but they may well be within their rights. Really good for morale to remind everybody now though - another master stroke.

[A2QFI]

The first time I left the RAF I was required to resign my commission as I was working abroad. I got a snottogram from MOD telling me that I was " No longer entitled to use the rank or style of Flt Lt" which came in an envelope addressed to Flt Lt XXXXX (Ret'd) which was vaguely amusing. I wonder what the legalities are of recalling to service an individual with no rank? Where are Gilbert Blades and Son?

[cazatou]

If you become Resident overseas you are no longer liable for recall.

[A2QFI]

Thanks Cazatou! That's a relief after all the years that have passed since 1977!!!

[AGS Man]

Cazatou
When I first came out to KSA my reserve status dropped from 2 (which gave me a small annual sum) to 5 which didn't. There was some talk during Desert Shield of recalling some guys direct from BAe who were already in Kingdom but nothing developed on that.

[Wensleydale]

Slight thread drift....

I always thought that using retired rank was reserved for Sqn Ldr and above and that you couldn't use Flt Lt (Retired).... I stand by to be corrected.

W.

PS. If you got called up again, you could always fail the fitness test.:}

[air pig]

Friend on of mine, Squadron Leader PMRAFNS, promoted to rank not long before GW 1, operating theatre shift boss, came back to the Uk, closed theatres at Wroughton and Halton under the defence review in which we closed all the military hospitals. One morning received the interview with coffee and biscuits and was informed that he was being made redundant. No pension as he did not have enough PC service time after converting from an SSC.

Fast forward to GW2, his comments was that the 'b*stards would have to take him back in chains'

Seems we neve learn the lessons do we!

Regards

Air pig

[Stuff]

Would that potentially count as unfair dismissal?

In a civilian company - without a doubt. On the other hand, the military are exempt from the unfair dismissal part of employment law.

[L-H]

If an employee is made redundant, whether compulsory or voluntary, that is a premature release from the contract and therefore I would not expect any reserve liability. However, being the military and all that and that the MoD is exempt whole swathes of employement legislation stand by to standby.

I'm with the OP and SD, just return anything obvious back to sender. It's a known problem that manning haven't a clue where people are these days.

F*** 'em!

[Lima Juliet]

The length of time in the Regular Reserve varies on rank and length of service. You can't dodge the commitment unless you become an Expat or your next employer has a VERY good reason not to release you.

All covered under the relevant Sections of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 (RFA96) and it is legal and binding - unless you want to go 'thermonuclear' and become a conscientous (sp?) objector but then you forfeit other rights.

The good news is, as a Regular Reservist, you are entitled to free landing fees at MOD Airfields according to JSP360. Furthermore, from what I can see you would also be entitled to go adventurous training at public expense.

LJ

[cazatou]

Leon

Thank you for the confirmation in respect of Expats Reserve Liability.

[Impiger]

Not sure why you all believe Mr Harding as usual his work is flawed (not least the figure 32,000 which is neither the 2015 position nor the 2020 one). Liability for recall for the Regular Reserve of Officers or the Regular Reserve of Airmen varies enormously by the date one joined (some are subject to RFA80 not RFA96) the terms of Service applying to you on exit (for many this is 9 years Regular plus a Reserve liability of 6 years). It is just plain wrong to suggest that all have a liability to age 55 or 18 years after leaving. The liability for recall is also subject to an appropriate call-out notice being signed by the Defence Secretary and under the terms of RFA96 for a true national emergency (so not just a bit of a NEO or a UN relief mission in Libya). I've never heard that the RN and Army can 'opt out' I don't believe this is true either as terms of Service are well controlled on a tri-Service basis (but I could be wrong).

To put this in perspective, HQ Air reckon there are about 10,000 airmen out there who have left within the last 6 years and for the opening stages of GW2, the last time we called-out the Regular Reserve, 100 were taken back in to Service. Not really the sword of Damocles Harding would have you believe it is.

But if you're worried about this don't listen to rumour and ill informed journalists - phone first your own desk officer or if you have left already HQ Air policy staffs and get the real picture as it applies to you - as I said there are several different sets of circumstances out there.

[CRM Monkey]

You can use your previous rank as long as you made Flt Lt, you don't even need to use the suffix Retd although that is normal

How to address Retired Officers of The RAF - Forms of Address by Profession, Royal Air Force (http://www.debretts.co.uk/forms-of-address/professions/armed-forces/raf/retired.aspx)

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

If the letter ever comes I think they'll find I've just splintered my pancreas. I seem to remember from way back that they only expect a response rate of something like 40% anyway? Always happy to be be part of the majority.

[L J R]

.....and the day you get 'back in' is the day you fail the fitness test. What do they do then??? pay you for 4 months getting fit (with a view to fail again of course)...?

[baffman]

I've never heard that the RN and Army can 'opt out' I don't believe this is true either as terms of Service are well controlled on a tri-Service basis (but I could be wrong).I don't know the legal basis [i.e. for WAIVING reserve liability], but for the current round of redundancies the MoD has clearly stated in the relevant DIN that as far as the Army redundancies are concerned, only commissioned officers will be subject to reserve liability.

The Naval Service position, however, appears to be the same as the RAF's.

Reserve liability after redundancy? | from BAFF - British Armed Forces Federation (http://www.baff.org.uk/201201181366/reserve-liability-after-redundancy.html)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Cazatou, Leon - Do you know if 'ex-pat' residency include Commonwealth countries?
Moving to Canada hardly counts as 'turncoat'.
Also, since the Head of State is the same, am I now liable for Canadian Reserve Service?

In practice, I would have thought only Intel and Medics are liable to call up. Thoughts anyone?

[Melchett01]

The liability for recall is also subject to an appropriate call-out notice being signed by the Defence Secretary and under the terms of RFA96 for a true national emergency (so not just a bit of a NEO or a UN relief mission in Libya). I've never heard that the RN and Army can 'opt out' I don't believe this is true either as terms of Service are well controlled on a tri-Service basis (but I could be wrong).

From the 2008 edition of the RFA 96 Act:

10. RFA 96 restates the existing call-out powers, but within a new framework of call-out
orders.
11. Thus Her Majesty may make an order authorising call-out:

12. The Secretary of State may make an order authorising call-out:

13. The making of an order also activates the corresponding power under the ReserveForces Act 1980 as amended. The warlike operations power has been extended for the first time to all Reserve Forces. (Under the 1980 Act, it did not apply to ratings of the Royal Naval Reserve, members of the Royal Marines Reserve or to the Royal Auxiliary Air Force).

14. There is a new power, under which the Secretary of State may authorise call-out;

15. This new power is intended to cover peacekeeping, humanitarian and disaster relief operations. The wording is specifically designed to exclude the call-out of Reservists in theevent of civil disorder in the UK. Transitional members of the Reserve Forces cannot be called out under this power.


Paras 14 & 15 would appear to be a slightly worrying 'catch-all' given the recent history of using the Armed Forces for interventions of choice rather than necessity :\

[pottwiddler]

Now there's a name I've not heard for a while. He's still practising this is his url for all those who need him...
http://www.wilkinchapman.co.uk/site/profile/gblades

[cazatou]

Fox3

I don't know the answer to that one - from here in SW France I could be back in UK inside 12 hours. I doubt however that the RAF would be in desperate need of a 65 year old former Pilot.

[Lima Juliet]

Normally to be in the Reserves you must have been resident in the United Kingdom for three years - therefore Expats become exempt on my understanding.

Other exemptions, deferral or revocation can include:

- you have primary parental or care responsibilities
- you are engaged in full-time education or training
- you are self-employed or work in a family-run business which would be seriously harmed by your absence
- you have entered into a contract of employment but have not yet started work and your employer won’t agree to postpone your start date
- other compassionate reasons

Don't forget that call-out is normally for VERY extreme needs - like Gulf Wars, Falklands Wars, World Wars, etc...

LJ

[NutLoose]

Prior to GW1 my mate got a big brown letter from PMC as it was then, we debated over what it was as he was on active reserve having just left and was experienced on several types that went and current by a few months on one, in the end after talking about it, we came up with if you haven't read it how can they do you for not responding to a reserve call up, so the letter sat propped up on his desk for months :) when eventually opened it turned out to be forwarded on mail lol.

[BEagle]

Having served out PVR-porridge at Binnsworth establishing why reservists hadn't responded to requests to come and join Bliar's illegal Iraqi misadventure, I attempted to make head or tail of the baffling, ambiguous wording of the Reserve Forces Act and was unable to do so.....it is written almost with the intent to deceive.

Most often the reason for failing to respond was the complete and utter institutional incompetence prevalent in the Reservists cell, resulting in post often being sent to the wrong person and no actual signed copies of the Notices being retained....:rolleyes: Nor had they any proof that people who had either married or moved house had failed to notify them - as I told them, when they moved from Barnwood to Innsworth they didn't notify all Reservists, so any address change notices after 1991 would be few in number. In any case, people could just have notified them by phone....:hmm:

When I left, I sent something back to Binnsworth stating my understanding of my liability to any future call-out or recall notice by Recorded Delivery, stating that unless I heard to the contrary within 28 days then I would consider the matter closed.

I didn't, it was!

The whole reservist liability system, Impiger my old chum, needs to be re-worded in plain English which anyone can undertand. Otherwise any solicitor would simply say "I don't understand this gobbledegook, how can you expect my client to have done so?". Set your staff the task of doing so!



Never had a reply......:\

[Heathrow Harry]

The whole idea of the Reserve is not to ocver the situation as it is now but as it may transpire in the future

If you don't want o be called up just make sure they know you've been lunching the Chinese Defence attache............

[Lima Juliet]

I agree that the Reserve Call Out Procedure is a crock and that is exactly what Future Reserves 2020 paper spelled out and wants fixing ASAP.

On the subject of not answering a mobilisation/call-out letter; if you don't have a good reason for replying then you can be sent down for 3 months and a hefty fine (it's in RFA96). I don't believe "I haven't opened it" would quite cut it! Also, RFA96 spells out the offence for inciting AWOL or failure to report - some of the words on this thread could be construed as such...:eek:

Finally, Reserve Liability is set out very succinctly in the Service Leavers' Pack. Here's a link to the 8mb document (beware lots of big pictures!)

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/68DEEA3D-B384-419E-8FF9-F599F3EAAC19/0/424330_SPVA_GUIDE_P4562.pdf

LJ

[Two's in]

On leaving, my RO2 oracle advised me to write a "Dear Betty" letter to the Manning Office, saying I would be unable to fulfill my reserve commitment due to the fact I was getting on with my life somewhere else - or words to that effect. I got a prompt response saying 'Thanks for all the fish, no further commitment". Of course, that was before random politicians decided that we needed to carry out operational evaluation trials of shabby kit all over the globe, so maybe it's not that easy any more.

PS. Just as well......Turncoats not wanted!

The word is “clairvoyants”

[BEagle]

Finally, Reserve Liability is set out very succinctly in the Service Leavers' Pack.

No, it certainly isn't. For example, where does it explain the difference between 'call -out' and 'recall'?

Each individual leaver should be given a clear, unambiguous and PERSONAL letter which make clear his/her reserve liability with specific dates applicable to his/her situation.

That brochure is a total waste of time in its current form. For example:

Duty to inform your Service Personnel Centre

You have a legal duty to inform your Service Personnel Centre (SPC) of any circumstances which may affect your call-out or recall. These would include any change of name or address, if you believe you have become medically unfit for service in the Armed Forces, or you plan to be abroad for a period of over 3 months.

Really? What 'legal duty' might that be? Where is the reference? And precisely HOW are people expected to inform their 'Service Personnel Centre'? How many RAF folk who PVR'd, say 10 years ago, know that the RAF's 'SPC' is now at Hot Air Command, not somewhere in Gloucestershire?

[taxydual]

Before mass panic breaks out. Does anyone here actually know of, or have heard of, anyone being recalled to the Colours? (or Ensign, in this case).

To narrow the question down. In this Century?

[A2QFI]

A period of duty abroad, with no change of citizenship, should not be a barrier to anything relating to living or working back in UK.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Wise words on checking the details but the thrust of this debate (as appreciated by the civilian masses who do not understand our unfathomable ToS) is that you can be made compulsory redundant (non-volunteer) and be called-up at a time and place of HM's choosing. I'm sitting amongst a bunch of civilian friends this morning and they all consider this to be most unfair.

JTO,

Why do you consider that unfair? I don't see this as being for the situation where they've made a mistake and suddenly need more people in a certain branch. Rather, I imagine they'll set the required manning and then have it upset by WWIII, whereupon they need you back because you've still got the requisite skills.

Seems alright to me; I wouldn't expect to get called back for "we're a bit short, can you come back for a few years?" but I'd be happy to do my bit in the even of another GW1/Falklands etc.

[Lima Juliet]

Beags

I suspect you will find the 'legal duty' covered off in these 2 lengthy documents...RFA80 and RFA96...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/9/pdfs/ukpga_19800009_en.pdf

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/14/pdfs/ukpga_19960014_en.pdf

...and that's not Royal Fleet Auxiliary!

PS. In answer to:
And precisely HOW are people expected to inform their 'Service Personnel Centre'? it's on page 4 of the link in my previous post - at the bottom of the page is the address of all 3 Services' Reserve Cells. And you are correct, it moved to HQAir from Innsworth as did most of the other PTC functions during the STC/PTC merger. Is that really too unreasonable to ask people to track it down? :ugh: You could even Google "RAF Reserves" and it will lead you to the Reserves Cell at HQAir; unless, of course, you are a product of Bliar's British Education System and need to be "led to water" at every possible opportunity under the "Nanny State"?

[NutLoose]

I could see a lot of pissed off sacked people dragged back into the services for whatever reason simply saying **** you, they might be forcibly made to return, but one would bet the chances of getting them to do anything would be squat, the old adage you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink springs to mind.

[ShyTorque]

I was given a booklet entitiled "Notes for Officers retiring from the Royal Air Force"

18th Edition July 1992
Issued by the Air Secretary.

It says I'm liable to be recalled to service with the Regular Air Force at a time of imminent national danger. Up to the age of 60 in my case. It also says I will be employed in my former branch in a rank no lower than the substantive rank held at the time of retirement.

I didn't like the sound of half of my retired pay being abated for the privilege. I liked even less the statement that any portion of my retired pay (i.e. pension) that had been commuted would be recovered from my pay. Thankfully I'm too old for the last bit.

I have to keep RAF Innsworth informed of my address changes, which of course I have always done. However, they seem to have lost interest in me when I emigrated; they not been in touch recently and always seem to send the letters back saying "not at this address".

[Lima Juliet]

Nutloose

Fine, then they can do 3 months at Her Majesty's Pleasure and hand back some of their redundacy payment as a fine. Really, redundancy was a known deal when we signed up (it's detailed under the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme) and also the Reserve liability was in the small print for attestation or commissioning TACOS - it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone unless they have been in total denial. For most people we have all been through at least 1 redundancy round in the past as well.

P!ssed off, or not, it's something we all signed up to in the past and will just have to live with it.

LJ

[ShyTorque]

One does have to wonder how they would employ a long retired, 59 year old pilot who failed his refresher training or the medical/fitness test.

[NutLoose]

Leon you're living in cuckoo land..

What one is trying to get across is you might sack somebody, but do not expect that person having been sacked and having been debrainwashed and now happily working for a living to suddenly drop everything and turf up bright and breezy willing to jump through hoops for an Airforce that 2 years ago said b*gger off....l will never happen, all you will get is a resentful Reservist willing to do the absolute minimum or less to get through, after all it is not exactly doing anything promotion or job prospects wise for them, far from it, it is having the opposite effect on their civilian job. If you leave at the end of your service then fair do's, but sacked, you shouldn't have to do a reserve in my opinion as your service and your contract was terminated period.

[Lima Juliet]

Cuckoo land or not, if the individual has skills that the Country needs in dire emergency (don't forget that's what the liability is for) then the individual will be called forward. If that individual decides not to answer that call they can either go to Prison and pay a fine, or they can help the Country in their time of need. A simple choice I would think?

There are many things we cannot say "no" to in this Country - Reserve Liability, Jury Service, Crown Requisition of Property, Complusory Purchase Orders, etc... Well, we can say "no" but then we can suffer the legal consequence.

Or we can just continue living in denial...now where is that Cuckoo? :E

[BEagle]

No such thing as 'called forward' under the law.

Leon, those .pdfs sum up what's wrong with the system. No-one can really understand them completely.

Dear Bloggs:

You left the RAF on nn.nn.nnnn. Your reserve liability is as follows:

1. Call-out until nn.nn.nnnn. This means that, if (.....................), you might be required to augment regular RAF forces for a maximum single period of (....).

2. Re-call until nn.nn.nnnn. This means that, if (.....................), you might be required to assist in the defence of the UK for a maximum single period of (....).

3. Until nn.nn.nnnn, if you change your name, change address or (.....), please advise 0800nnnnnnn or via e-mail to reserves@..............

For further information, contact www.reservehelpline........

K.I.S.S.!!

As for 'dire emergency', how does that definition cover Bliar's illegal military adventurism?

[ShyTorque]

Beagle, yes, not a very organised system.

As I intimated in my last post, the RAF didn't even bother to tell me that they have changed their address where I'm supposed to contact them to tell them that I've changed my address...

The last contact I had with RAF Innsworth, they wrote to ask me to become an HRR pilot (High Readiness Reserve). I was living over 6,000 miles away from the base they wanted me to be on high readiness for (they did know where I was, as I had kept them informed, iaw the rules).

They offered to pay me motor mileage from Luton airport to the duty base. But it would cost me £1200 in air fares each time I reported for duty, and my employer wouldn't release me in any case, due to the nature of my new employment. So I declined. ;)

[NutLoose]

One could imagine a good lawyer could tie it up in court getting a definition as to what is dire and if your call up is legal...

Leon, one was not saying they would not turn up, hence have answered the spirit of the law, simply once there you would have more luck heading cats than getting anything out of them... No incentive for anything else is there.

[Whenurhappy]

Oh dear! People are getting into a tizz!

There is an Appeals Tribunal based at RAF Boddington that deals with ex SP or members of the RAuxAF who are called up - and refuse to do so. . A Mobilisation Order is a legal order issued under RFA96 and the Tribunal Is a properly constituted body authorized to adjudicate. irrespective of the muddling associated with tracking down ex SP, calling up the reserves does require SofS approval and is not done lightly.

I side with LJ on this one - its part of the deal when we enlist and the liability continues as prescribed.

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

We all knew what we were getting ourselves into at the time. I accept that most did not expect this exact situation to occur, however, there is no precedent of HMG calling up every Tom, Dick and Harry each week asking them to come in to work for a few hours. The reserve list is just a list unless something terribly untoward occurs. Accept it and move on.

[Willard Whyte]

you are entitled to free landing fees at MOD Airfields according to JSP360. Furthermore, from what I can see you would also be entitled to go adventurous training at public expense.


Woopie. F*****g. Do.

[Willard Whyte]

Accept it and move on.

How about the MoD **** right off and shove it up their funnel shaped faggot arses.

[Willard Whyte]

its part of the deal when we enlist and the liability continues as prescribed.

So they **** folk up the arse by sacking them and **** them again by ****ing their chances of getting the job they want.

Prick.

[Willard Whyte]

YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME ****ING PUKE.

[cokecan]

pies, thats the answer.

i'm afraid i've been less than diligent in informing the Army of my post-leaving whereabouts, and were i to get a nasty letter from them, i'd resort to the age old trick of implementing Operation FAT BOY to ensure that i was unfit for service.

if you want something, pay for it. if not, fcuk off.

i also, to my never-begining shame, completely ignored the hugely inconvenient letter about Jury Service as well.

nothing happpened about that either...

[lasernigel]

I did 13 yrs in the Army (1984 left to SOLF), then found out 6 months later I was still on the reserve until 55. Strange was promised by a S/Sgt in local records that I would get a pension at 55yrs old if I signed on for more than 9yrs. Found this later when reaching 55 and not getting a penny that this was standard practice to try to get guys to sign on for longer. Think nowadays they would be stuffed and have to pay out. Just typical get what they want at the time and then after you have given your best, or unfortunately recently from Iraq/Afghanistan your life/limbs and sanity be treated like a second class citizen and shoved on the scrap heap.
Do any other nations treat their Vets like us? Know the Germans get really good benefits, maybe something (not that I am pro EU) to bring up in court.

[Whenurhappy]

A General Mobilisation calling retired SP up (with a liability) would only happen when there were Jackboots stomping down Whitehall. Personnel mobilised in 2003 had only recently left the services, and were largely current in their trades (MT driver, MT Mech, etc) or in paricular niche areas.

Most of us are unlikely to ever be called up unless we are TA or RAuxAF or RAFR.

Given the degree of dripping about how great life was in the RAF by so many posters (and WW I know you are leaving on redundancy - my commiserations) I would ahve thought most would be digging out their Hairy marys and KDs to run back to the colours...

[Rigga]

Hmmm...Can't remember the last employer who asked how long I'd got left on reserve service. I doubt it ever crosses the minds of any HR managers too.

The simple quiet protest of non-acknowledgement would suffice in most cases and in most cases many people will have moved homes once in the 18 years after leaving.



However, if this does come into being: Could we all get 'Gats' to keep at home like we did at Laarbruch and like the Swiss do? I'd oil & polish mine once a month whether it needed it or not. (and can I have an SLR please?)

[baffman]

I don't think it is a question of "if this comes into being". It IS in being, and people have been mobilised (in many cases willingly/patriotically but in some cases reluctantly) under this provision.

[Scuttled]

Genuine question.

Is it many people really?

[baffman]

Genuine question.

Is it many people really?

Sorry, is it many people really what?

[Lima Juliet]

Willard

shove it up their funnel shaped faggot arses

Sadly, there would be someone willing to do exactly that to you during your 3 month stay in HMP if you choose to reject any future call.

Beagle

Yes, I agree KISS is the way forward and I also know that is what they are going to do very soon - it's all in the recent Future Reserves stuff. Unfortunately, Bliar told us we were under the spectre if WMDs and so it was "National Importance" - when is the Iraq Inquiry reporting?

WhenUrHappy

Yup, very unlikely to be called upon - normally for GW or a Falklands job a maxmimum of a couple of hundred pers out of a Regular Reserve of the RAF of about 10-15,000 pers. Now even I can live a normal life with those odds!

LJ

[parabellum]

When I came out at first option of nine years served, admittedly many years ago, my first civvy job was in Indonesia so I wrote and advised my records office, (as was the requirement then), who replied saying that my three years reserve commitment had been waived. Any chance this could happen today?

[cokecan]

Leon, with a 'dire' national emergency at hand, and prisons full to bursting point, do you really believe that anyone is going to go around searching for WW - or me - and then be arsed to do a prosecution and then bother with a prison sentance?

no, me neither.

its all balls, and its all to easy to get out of - being a fat concientous objector would be a good start - and they'll just piss off and move down the list till they find someone willing to do the job...

[langleybaston]

I for one am very glad that the RAFVR and other reservists turned up in 1939 ....... my father among them.
For many years I had a strange obligation as RAFVR myself, consisting of a dormant commission only to be activated in grave emergency.
I do hope there are enough reservists unwilling to dodge the column "next time".
Drakes Drum, where are you?

[I can quite understand the unwillingness of those sacked to be counted in, but time was when a gentleman would honour his voluntarily entered obligations. Different if the government moves the goal posts, that is breech of contract].

[Lottery Winner]

[QUOTE][YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME ****ING PUKE.
/QUOTE]

Oh how we do appreciate a well considered argument from a rational and intelligent expert in his field; and one based on well researched fact too! After such a clever and comprehensive response we might as well close this thread; after all, there is nothing left to say is there!!!

[Wensleydale]

I think that the time to be unhappy is when you get your re-call letter in order to act as a car park attendant for the Olympics.......

They didn't get the idea from me - OK?:E

[m0nkfish]

Maybe the FAPS should consider this legal obligation when they determine the specifics of our next pension? How many other jobs carry such a commitment which could have far reaching implications on an individual should they find themselves having to honour it?

Hopefully for most, the argument is academic as if the country is in genuine dire straits (WW3!) most would want to do their bit anyway and I would sooner sit in a CAOC picking my nose and boring the ops staff with my 'war stories' than get drafted into the army and sit in a ditch watching atom bombs go bang.

[cornish-stormrider]

monkfish - are you mental......
Have you ever seen a docudrama called Threads??

I always said I'd be outside with a beer and my beloved beside me, shades on and going to see a real bright light - no horrid end of the world aftermath from that one........

Non nuclear end of the world - you know the standard zombie apocralype....
bring it on - I got my plans.

As to the purpose of this thread - they need to define the circumstances, and we cut back too far to carry out our latest politico ego trip does not cut it,

[Melchett01]

As to the purpose of this thread - they need to define the circumstances, and we cut back too far to carry out our latest politico ego trip does not cut it,

Cornish - in part yes. This smacks of yet more cack-handed Manning decisions, not only the failure to define the requirement, but more importantly, the sheer front that Manning seems to have in thinking it can casually toss people aside and then expect them to have recall hanging over them for the best part of 2 decades. Journalistic licence and cock-ups apart, the sentiment behind the article did make my blood boil.

But the other purpose behind the thread was to try and establish exactly what the reserve liability actually is. Is there are set length of time that a reserve liability exists for i.e. X years from leaving? Or is benchmarked against your age i.e. you have a liability for recall until you hit 55, 60 etc ? I for one have certainly never had it explained; when I have asked J1 in the past, they muttered something about APs and JSPs without actually answering the question. Having Googled the Reserve Forces Act, that again, didn't seem to have dates and durations, just the circumstances (which seem to now be fairly broad) in which they can recall you. It would be quite nice, if not reassuring, to be able to find someone or somewhere that has this sort of detail to hand rather than getting the nasty surprise when the OHMS letter hits the door mat after you think you have done your time for Queen & Country.

[langleybaston]

My specialism is the British Army in and just before the Great War. In those days a soldier's commitment was on one piece of foolscap. The most usual was "7 and 5" ...... 7 years with the colours, 5 on the reserve, end of message.
There was provision for an extra year if overseas at the end of the 7 [a year for King George], or if a war broke out. Either way, the maximum commitment was 13 years in uniform. During the initial 7 years a man could voluntarily extend to pension c. 21 years, with the agreement of his CO.

Only conscription could overturn the moment when a man coulld say "pull up the ladder Jack!"

As a civilian outsider I am baffled that serving and retired RAF officers and men do not have a similar document.

[Jimlad1]

The whole thing smacks of an utter non story drawn up by people grumpy at being reminded that they've signed a contractual agreement which includes reserve service.

As far as I can make out, the regular component of the reserve has been used in tiny, tiny numbers since 2003 - I think it was used to find a couple of deep specialists who werent in the TA or Volunteer reserves, and even then I got the impression that it was done on a 'would you like to come along, if so then let us know and we'll call you up'.

The regular reserve is a bit of a historical legacy - great if you're planning for WW3 and Russians over the border, but in reality, its not been updated as a contigency planning tool for decades. What it is now is a pool of people, some of whom choose to stay in contact with the RAF, and of them, a smaller group of people may chose, if asked, to enter service.

The reality is that there is not going to be a mass call up of ex regular RAF personnel recently made redundant, except in the febrile mind of a particularly poor newspaper correspondent. To get to the stage where the RAF is actively considering a general call up ex Regs, it would need to have exhausted the entire pool of regular manpower, put the volunteer reserves into 100% mobilisation and still be running short of people. I suspect if we're in that sort of national emergency, many people would be volunteering to come back anyway.

No sane desk officer is going to be putting a ministerial submission in requesting permission to compulsorily call up ex regular personnel who've just left HM Forces. Its simply not going to happen.

What has happened is that people have been reminded of their obligations, that they signed up to when they joined the Air Force, and they are now sulking because theoretically they may be liable at some point when its going very, very badly wrong, to receive a phone call saying 'would you mind'?

Its a non story except to people who like being easily outraged.

[Melchett01]

The whole thing smacks of an utter non story drawn up by people grumpy at being reminded that they've signed a contractual agreement which includes reserve service.

Got to disagree there - if nothing else, it shows that RAF Media / Comms have yet again failed to grip something that now puts the service in a bad light, whatever the rights and wrongs behind the article actually are.

Furthermore, I would suggest it is more symptomatic of the sort of poor leadership we have come to expect from the senior echelons. As a Flt Cdr, if we had a situation of mass confusion or people failing to understand correctly, the Boss viewed that was less of a failing on their part and more a failing on our parts as flt cdrs and leaders. As leaders, it was up to us to make sure those we were charged with leading understood what was going on, why a particular course of action was being taken and what the likely implications were of that course of action for both the individual and the unit.

Yes, you may disagree with the way in which the issue has been presented (leaked) - I have no doubt by an individual or a relative / friend of an individual who finds themselves in the boat in question. But the fact that such confusion exists, to my mind, is just another example of poor leaders not effectively communicating. Either that or based on the principle of there's no smoke without fire, then it is an issue that is doing the staffing rounds.

[baffman]

Just to add that the issue has been in the public domain since 18 Jan:

Reserve liability after redundancy? | from BAFF - British Armed Forces Federation (http://www.baff.org.uk/201201181366/reserve-liability-after-redundancy.html)

[sitigeltfel]

Commitment and loyalty work both ways. A young man or woman signs up and promises to dedicate a fair part of their lives to the service of their country. Many of them will do this in the knowledge that they had an option to chose a different career path but nevertheless they still took the oath.

It is entirely understandable, that when they are told they are no longer required, they feel the bond of trust and loyalty has been broken. To then ask them, at some unspecified point in the future, to come back again and place themselves in the hands of the service that has already rejected them is arrogance at its worst.

Being pissed about while serving is something most of us accepted. To carry it on into civvy life is ludicrous.

[Red Line Entry]

I'm always amazed when people say that public transport is underutilised when the outrage bus on this forum is so popular.

Jimlad has it spot on - it's a complete non-story. Reserve liability has existed for decades, without being dependent on the circumstances of release. As for 'arrogance at its worst' - give us a break!

[HTB]

This spells out quite clearly the reserve liability "At the end of your service in the Regular Forces...", although it does not specifiy how that end of service came about.


http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/68DEEA3D-B384-419E-8FF9-F599F3EAAC19/0/424330_SPVA_Guide_p4562.pdf


For RAF officers the liability goes on to age 60 - this did surprise me when I appled for a job that asked if I had a military reserve liability, especially as I was considered by my desk oficer as "too old to get back into the cockpit" at age 46, and you're considered to be well over the hill at age 55.

Had I known earlier about this handy little bulletin, I could have used the get out on the last page (medically unfit, changed address and living overseas):

You have a legal duty to inform your Service
Personnel Centre (SPC) of any circumstances
which may affect your call-out or recall. These
would include any change of name or address,
if you believe you have become medically unfit
for service in the Armed Forces, or you plan to
be abroad for a period of over 3 months.

Mister B

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A few points / questions.

1. The Reserve List. When was the last time the list was tested? Write to 100 random individuals; check they respond and are fit, etc. I strongly suspect the answer is never, and that the response would show the list to be worthless.

2. What is the utility of calling up people who were sacked or who PVR'd? If the reason for recall is politically dodgy, then dissent will increase. If the reason is a genuine threat to the values we all joined up to defend, then those who left will be phoning the Government, rather than the other way around.

3. How much use is someone who left 20 years ago? Especially when my understanding is that we must be employed in the same branch? I would expect to be asked to report to Hendon, since that's where all my aircraft types now are.

3. Is not the whole reserve list a means for politicians to pretend the country has a back-up plan, when in fact it doesn't?

[baffman]

2. What is the utility of calling up people who were sacked or who PVR'd? If the reason for recall is politically dodgy, then dissent will increase. If the reason is a genuine threat to the values we all joined up to defend, then those who left will be phoning the Government, rather than the other way around.

Well, it did happen in 2003. I don't have the numbers to hand. An RAF ex-regular reservist failed in his appeal against a summary punishment for going absent rather than take part in Op TELIC. (By the way he hadn't applied for exemption as a conscientious objector, but that would be another topic.)

If the requirement for reservists really does make it more difficult to embark on an expeditionary campaign which is "politically dodgy", some would argue that that is actually a good thing.

It is not just a pinko peacenik argument. US forces supposedly reconfigured themselves post-Vietnam with, some say, the conscious intention of making it impossible to embark on medium to large scale operations without reservist participation and a degree of public support.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Thanks for the example. If this was the Moshin Khan case, then I'm not sure it changes the argument. From my reading of the court summary, the RAF advised him to apply for discharge from duty on the grounds of conscientious objection. It indicates he was likely to have this approved. He declined, attended pre-deployment training, then went AWOL. This makes him a plonker at best.

Having a major engagement require reservists to happen doesn't seem to have stopped politicians starting unpopular wars. It just seems to have stopped them having a chance of winning them.

[ShyTorque]

Quote:
If you become Resident overseas you are no longer liable for recall.

Just as well......Turncoats not wanted!

So, having been given the heave-ho from the military, and then unable to find a job in UK, rather than go abroad to find work, one should stay here and be loyal.

On benefits.... just in case the military decides it wants you back in the next three decades.... :ugh:

I always wanted to be a street busker. Got the guitar (can't play it, can't sing, so well qualified in both respects). Got the mangey dog too. Just popping out for a carrier bag full of Special Brew, then we're away! :}

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Excellent point Shy!

Or even if your new profession is in desperate demand (science teaching in my case), does "loyalty" require one should stay and put up with moronic Government policy which is trashing your profession?

Loyalty is supposed to work both ways, otherwise it's slavery.

[ShyTorque]

Agreed, and in my case, having been to work for a Communist run state, will they really want me back? I might end up having to invade myself. :ooh:

[HTB]

In my link above, it doesn't actually say that you won't be recalled, just that you have to tell the SPC if there are changes in personal circumstances:

Duty to inform your
Service Personnel Centre

You have a legal duty to inform your Service
Personnel Centre (SPC) of any circumstances
which may affect your call-out or recall. These
would include any change of name or address,
if you believe you have become medically unfit
for service in the Armed Forces, or you plan to
be abroad for a period of over 3 months.

and the next paragraph:

Failure to Respond
Failure to respond to a call-out or recall notice
without leave lawfully granted or reasonable
excuse is an offence under the Reserve Forces
Act 1996 which may be dealt with by the civil
courts or by court-martial.

Sad to say, I did not fulfil my legal duty - but then it was never mentioned during the discharge process, and my desk officer did say...too old. Anyway, there was no need for time-expired Tornado navs with no other specialised skills.:sad:

Mister B

[AR1]

I left in 1994 on redundancy with 15 of 22 served. There was NO liability for reserve, that seems to me perfectly logical. If you deem a role to be redundant, you have done the maths and you can now function using those that remain. It's even more logical that if you give someone a tap on the shoulder and tell him he's leaving, that he probably won't do a very good job if you force him to return.

[BEagle]

Thanks for the example. If this was the Moshin Khan case, then I'm not sure it changes the argument. From my reading of the court summary, the RAF advised him to apply for discharge from duty on the grounds of conscientious objection. It indicates he was likely to have this approved. He declined, attended pre-deployment training, then went AWOL. This makes him a plonker at best.


Not so. I was at Binnsworth serving PVR-porridge at the time. The legal mob nearly had a heart attack when they found that many copies of call-out ntoices didn't even bear unit stamps or signatures; however, Khan's did.

During his appeal against the sentence he was given for being AWOL, the Court '...determined that Khan did not know until later that there was a possibility of claiming that his conscience did not allow him to obey the call up notice he had received and that it was not until his interview with an officer on 5 Mar after he had been arrested that he was made aware of the formal procedure for making such a claim'

In my opinion, he was poorly advised by his superiors.

The RAF had quite sensible investigative procedures for following up failures to respond to call-out notices, whereas the Army wanted to kick peoples' doors in. I highlighted the fact that Bliar's military adventurism was far from holding the nation's universal support, so heavy-handed actions to investigate reluctant reservists would be certain to attact considerable adverse publicity.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The joy of pprune - the truth emerges!
So much for court summaries.

...and boy did I get a good deal on my PVR posting, relatively speaking.

[sitigeltfel]

Flight Sergeant Tony Penfold told the court he managed to get hold of LAC Khan on the phone, the day after he went absent.
He said: "I tried to find out why he hadn't come back and he told me it was against his religion and he didn't want to fight against members of his own religion."
Obviously Khan was not the only Muslim serving in the UK forces. Did others also object, or was Khan just using his religion as an excuse to get out of active service?

[BEagle]

But did Flt Sgt Penfold explain the process of conscientious objection to LAC Khan during the telephone conversation? I feel he should have done.

Another person they tried to call-out had been messed about in his previous service. After being posted to different units, often at short notice, he asked for a period of stability due to his family circumstances. When this was denied, he PVR'd. Then they told him that they would give him some stability if he revoked his PVR, which he did. But no such stability was forthcoming, so this time he PVR'd and left.

Then 'they' considered serving him a call out notice for Bliar's illegal war. I read the circumstances and strongly suggested that this would only land some unit with a significant admin burden and mess up the chap's civilian career. I don't know whether my advice was heeded; I sincerely hope it was.

Total Force concept? More like Total Farce.....:uhoh: