RN & RAF SAR rescue off North Wales Coast

[grimfixer]

Not sure whether this was a dark blue or light blue job (might have been both due to the winch being u/s on the first cab) but cracking job by all concerned. Link to BBC footage...
BBC News - Rescue mission as cargo ship hits rocks off Conwy coast (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17607105)
:ok:

[Spanish Waltzer]

In the hope not to start another pi$$ing thread congrats to both crews involved last night in the rescue of the ships crew. Would like to know more as to the cause of the winch 'failure' on the RN cab from prestwick and why the Valley cab was not involved in this job that was on their doorstep? Were they already tasked or having a bad run of unserviceabilities?

However, the Royal Navy rescue helicopter's winch broke midway through the operation, when five of the crew were off the ship.

Rescue co-ordinators had to send out another helicopter from RAF Leconfield to collect the remaining two crew members.

BBC News - Ship rescue: Oil leaks from Carrier off Llanddulas after crew saved (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-17607325)

[Heathrow Harry]

Well done everyone concerned

but the Nation is agog to discover if it was a ROYAL rescue

[XV208 SNOOPY]

Was Valley perhaps outside of weather limits? METAR for last night shows very stong winds and gusts.

Well done to all involved, no matter if light or dark blue!:ok::ok::ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Snoopy, or maybe already committed or Leconfield already alerted to assist?

[KG86]

Without wishing to denigrate the excellent work of the crews involved last night, I can't help wondering whether it was all necessary.

The ship was swept onto the coast, where it became firmly stuck. It was not going to sink (it had run aground), it was still there this morning, and it will probably still be there in a few days time.

Why risk life and limb (especially of the winchman in the exceptionally blustery weather) for a non-life-threatening situation? The ship's crew could probably have climbed down a ladder in the cold light of day.

[glojo]

Without wishing to denigrate the excellent work of the crews involved last night, I can't help wondering whether it was all necessary.That ship might have, or might not have broke up over night. It might or it might not have turned onto its side and thrown those sailors into the sea. I saw NO WAY they could have got off that ship in those conditions without outside assistance and would you want to be on that wind swept freezing cold deck in gale force conditions and the sea continually breaking over the decks? I cannot begin to imagine the conditions they were enduring and respect to every single member of all rescue services that helped save the lives of those stranded mariners.

I salute the bravery of those involved in that rescue

[dazdaz1]

Heathrow Harry

"but the Nation is agog to discover if it was a ROYAL rescue" I can assure you the Prince is an avid poster/reader of this site. Tower of London 4u naughty boy asking questions.

Daz

[Biggus]

.....keep guessing....

[Cpt_Pugwash]

Re the broken winch, a report on our intranet said the winch cable snagged on a lamp fitting and although it was freed, the winch was damaged and the Gannet cab returned to Valley for it to be repaired.

[OvertHawk]

a question with no suggestion or agenda - really!

Can you do a winch change rotors running on a seaking? If, for example, Valley had been out of wind limits - could the RN cab have had the winch changed there turning and burning?

I've heard of Bristow doing RR winch swaps on the S61 - but is that winch not electric rather than hydraulic as per the SK?

Curiosity only - BZ to all concerned.
OH

[MightyGem]

Was on duty last night, and heard over Police radio that 3 RAF Sea Kings had gone tits, the Navy's winch had broken and the next aircraft was an hour and a half away. The pan at Valley must have got quite crowded.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Millies hero swoops again as Navy chopper ace Mike Henson saves 14 in repeat drama | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4239853/Millies-hero-swoops-again-as-Navy-chopper-ace-Mike-Henson-saves-14-in-repeat-drama.html)

earlier in the day... grough — Nine walkers airlifted from Britain's snow-hit second peak (http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2012/04/03/nine-walkers-airlifted-from-britains-snow-hit-second-peak)

Heck of a way to start your first day on the job....

theres a fuller news report which says the Valley aircraft was unserviceable at Pollution fears, plus three weeks of A55 disruption to salvage ship - North Wales News - News - Daily Post North Wales (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/04/05/pollution-fears-plus-three-weeks-of-a55-disruption-to-salvage-ship-55578-30697259/)

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

KG86,

The ship was on fire! Waiting till dawn to evacuate via a ladder might have been a trifle uncomfortable!


Can you do a winch change rotors running on a seaking [sic]?


No!

The pan at Valley must have got quite crowded.

If the Valley aircraft were broken, they were probably in the shed, especially in that wind. Besides, there are 9 spots on the SAR dispersal, plenty to host a few guests, such as happened during the Swanland resuce late last year.

[Old-Duffer]

The coastline around those parts is very difficult in places and the weather unpredictable/changeable etc.

In August 1941 an aircraft crashed off the beach at Rhosneiger and the three crew got out. During the rescue, the three crew died as did ELEVEN resuers. Two boys aged 17 were each awarded the George Medal (one went on to be a brigadier) - that's how dangerous it gets and that's why the crew had to be taken off. Well done the helio boys/gals involved.

Old Duffer

[[email protected]]

All 4 Valley aircraft off state - Prestwick nearest (in time) due to strong N wind - rescued 5 then broke the winch leaving winchman on the boat - Leconfield battled through snow to recover RN winchman plus remaining crew from boat.

Not sure why Chivenor weren't scrambled since the low level transit around the coast would have been significantly easier and possibly quicker than Lec having to hover taxi in snow to get there - someone at the ARCCK probably needs rebriefing that just because the computer says call Lec, the weather might not favour that option.

Good job though, well done to all involved.

[Wander00]

OD - do you have more on that story -sounds interesting (say Hello to Northamptoshire for me - a county that has figured a few times in my life.

[Norfolk Inchance]

Bit embarrassing for the SAR Force HQ, missing not only a job on their doorstep, but also HRH not being involved. PR Flight must be very upset.

[Old-Duffer]

Wander00,

I will post the story here when I've had my supper

O-D

[OafOrfUxAche]

also HRH not being involved


That's right, they always make sure he's going to be on shift when there's a big job:ugh:

[Vizsla]

Didn't the Bristow Coastguard contract S61's have a 2nd winch fitted after
winchman fatality ?

[Old-Duffer]

Wander00,

A bit later than intended but here is a summary of the loss in question. It comes from a book I'm writing but I don't believe I said that!

28-Aug-41 L6417 Botha I 4 AOS Off Rhosneigr, Anglesey 3+11
The aircraft was flying on a navigation exercise when an engine failed. The pilot ditched the aircraft in rough seas and the conditions were such as to make rescue efforts ineffective. The men listed below were amongst a group who attempted to rescue the aircraft’s crew but who died when the four small boats, which they had launched from the shore, were overwhelmed by the seas running at that time. Two 17 year old boys were awarded the George Medal for rowing out to the wreck and attempting to rescue the pilot. These boys; John Wood and Derek Baynham, spent well over two hours in great danger during their attempt. In addition to their George Medals, the boys received gifts from the Polish President and the RNLI Silver Medal for Gallantry. Baynham was subsequently employed on special duties work whilst still a teenager and he subsequently served in the Army, retiring as a Brigadier. He died on 16 May 2006 and his obituary makes interesting reading.
Sergeant Kazimierz Stefan ROSIEWICZ Polish Air Force - Crew
Leading Aircraftman Thomas Alexander DIXON 20
Leading Aircraftman Frederick Charles GLOCKLER 27

Leading Aircraftman Leslie Arthur FORD 615 Sqn - Rescuers
Aircraftman 1st Class Donald William BANNISTER 615 Sqn
2nd Lieutenant Peter Tyrel WHYSALL 23 Royal Artillery
Warrant Officer II (BSM) Alfred William MOGER 34
Gunner Sidney WILKINS 33
Gunner Clarence Herbert THORNTON 20
Gunner Ronald Kenneth SIMONS 33
Gunner Reginald EATON 20
Mr G C EVAN-JONES Coastguard
2nd Officer A J OWEN Merchant Navy
Police Constable George Cledwyn ARTHUR
Citation for: 404216 Sergeant John James PLUNKETT.
In August, 1941, an aircraft crashed into the sea. Many gallant attempts, both collective and individual, were made to rescue the three members of the crew, but conditions were such that all lost their lives, together with eleven of the would-be rescuers. Among numerous Royal Air Force personnel concerned, Sergeant Plunkett has been chosen for recognition as having shown outstanding gallantry. He swam out 300 yards in the raging sea and brought back an unconscious airman whom he attempted, with the help of others, to revive by artificial respiration. Unfortunately the airman died later. In addition to his efforts at artificial respiration, Sergeant Plunkett succeeded in bringing three other persons to the shore, and these owe their lives to his courage and determination.
(London Gazette – 6 January 1942)
A significant number of Royal Humane Society and National Lifeboat Institution medals were awarded for rescue attempts in this incident. For example, the Royal humane Society Bronze Medal was awarded to Lance Bombardier H S G Darke and Gunner F H Ebden, in addition to awards made to many of those who died in the incident.

I think you will agree a pretty dramatic event and it comes two days a Botha crashed through the roof of Blackpool railway station and killed very many civilians. Here again an RAF NCO was awarded a GM for his exceptional bravery with blazing petrol pouring down as he tried to extricate casualties.

Old Duffer

[Ivan Rogov]

BZ to all involved.

Crab, as a SAR pro rather than second guess the ARCCs reasons for sending particular aircraft, why not ask them directly? I'm sure you have their number. They are very professional and self-critical and would appreciate constructive feedback. There might have been very good reasons for sending Leconfield, if so you will learn something, if not they will learn something. I doubt they are permitted to comment publically on jobs unless through the official PR route, so this forum isn't really the best place to snipe at them :=

Would the original or new SAR(H) contract have the 'flexibility' to cope with the issues faced on this rescue? I suppose you could argue that most issues related to equipment, was that because it is old or the support is lacking? Would new/modern platforms be better? What would 3 u/s cabs do to the new structure? Not an attempt to knock the future, just genuine interest from someone who could be a customer one day :O

[Lioncopter]

Well to be fair on the s-92 we would have just switched to the second hoist.....

Well done to all involved sounds like a "fun" nights work.

[Daysleeper]

Didn't the Bristow Coastguard contract S61's have a 2nd winch fitted after winchman fatality ?

I think you mean BBC News. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/79008.stm) William Deacon on the Green Lily - 1997.

The line had to be cut after it snagged in the ship's superstructure and could not be used again. A lifeboat at the scene could not approach because of the severity of conditions.

AAIB report (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/april_1998/sikorsky_500140.cfm)

[Thomas coupling]

Valley, Prestwick, Leconfield, Ireland - the ARCC must have been running round like headless chickens :eek:
Q: why didnt the Navy cab have a 2nd winch me thinks?
More importantly, the A55 alongside where the tanker came to rest was single lane for bl**dy hours and the traffic was horrendous :\

[althenick]

Q: why didnt the Navy cab have a 2nd winch me thinks?

I'm not sure what yer getting at here the RN and RAF Cabs only have 1 winch as far as I can see but am happy to be corrected.

I think this is a more valid question

All 4 Valley aircraft off state

How in gods name was this allowed to happen

BTW - I am NOT CRAB BASHING it just amazes me - Britains premier air service cant keep at least one cab servicable. Whats going on guys?
:(

[louisnewmark]

Not sure that the RAF's Heath-Robinson emergency electrical hoist would have been viable in this situation - a snagged hook, heavily loaded, might well have compromised the integrity of the hoist frame mounting to the fuselage. Also not sure I would like to use a 50 fpm hoist in such conditions, but then the alternative option wasn't that palatable either...

Sadly, for many years multiple SKs off state have hardly been an uncommon occurrence although, by using a politician's approach to maths, needing combined total of 6 SKs and an S-61 to complete a single winching job (yes, I know, it was a pretty serious job) seems somewhat unfortunate. Even more sadly, 'what's going on' has very little to do with the quite astonishing daily efforts of those at the coal face who will have been doing their utmost to change the situation for the better, and no doubt have rather less hair as a result.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter how superlative your standards, training, professionalism, ethos and proactivity are if your helicopters don't work. A fully effective service needs reliable hardware, otherwise the taxpayers simply aren't getting what they are paying for.

Louis

[vib6er]

althenick

I'm more of a lurker really but i'm moved to post on the issue of valley being off state-
Normally we run 5 a/c not 4-

No 5 is at depth having a frame repair-spotted at valley and one tripped down to depth approx 4 weeks ago, no replacement available from depth, currently 3 weeks late.

No 4 has been long term u/s due to ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule and various peoples reluctance to get off the fence.

No 3 was u/s with a frame crack- now concessed with 5 hrly inspects till depth visit- now 3 weeks late.

No 2 was awating air test post ecu cx-its secound since the original failed vibs- which had previously been rejected for the same,but we won't go there.

No 1 was happily flying as the only S asset till it was recalled by mig with high debris count from samples, which is looking like a mrgb cx,while its out its frame cracks could be sorted!

The Sk is an old frame in need of much attention, nobody 'allowed' them all to break at the same time ,it happens, get over it.I would much rather have a knackered SK in the hanger getting fixed than flying as a potential crash site.

rant over:ugh:

[glojo]

I am an outsider looking in and simply asking question and most certainly NOT offering an opinion or making a judgement.

Is the role of Search and Rescue sometimes the very last option when someone's life is on the line and that aircraft is the very last option that might keep us from taking that last walk toward the pearly gates?

With several peoples lives hanging by a thread is it right that an aircraft is grounded just because:


No 4 has been long term u/s due to ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule and various peoples reluctance to get off the fence.I say 'just' but that might be unfair, if the odds are stacked against the aircraft not being safe then so be it but if this is bureaucracy that may or may not be responsible for lives being lost that could otherwise be saved then shame on those fence sitters!

I am not privvy to ANY of the facts regarding ANY specific incident and I am also NOT referring to any incident that has recently occured.

If tonight a military aircraft ditches into the sea and the only aircraft available to rescue the injured crew that are bobbing about in the ocean is No 4 then would that aircraft be grounded just because of

ambiguos wording/interpretation of the flight test schedule

[Norfolk Inchance]

This is not a mil bashing post, just a statement of fact. The modern civvy SAR aircraft have a vastly superior serviceability record. The smaller ones may not be a great platform, unlike the S92, but they still deliver when it comes to reliability. With only 2 engineers (and a day working Chief Engineer) keeping the HMCG aircraft online, are the mil aircraft over-maintained or is there too much paperwork/WRAM etc??? Does this not prove that the debate for upgrading/Carsonising and prolonging the SK was wrong. Replacements needed urgently- but with a decent aircraft and certainly not 5 big and 5 medium (small) as has been proposed. Lord help us.

[althenick]

The Sk is an old frame in need of much attention, nobody 'allowed' them all to break at the same time ,it happens, get over it.I would much rather have a knackered SK in the hanger getting fixed than flying as a potential crash site.

Vib6er
I totally agree but when you consider that Gannet have 3 cabs and were flying around like (Dark) Blue Ar5ed Flie over the previous 24 hours. It does raise the question. Thanks for setting me straight. From someone who knows very little about those whirly-thingies it does seem just to be rather bad luck. :ok:

[Welshwitch]

Wander00,

Re: your post abouth Rhosneigr / crashed Botha, A J Owen was my great uncle. He was home on special leave due to the death of his father who had been buried the day before the crash.

Regards

WW