Workplace ombudsman prosecuting Jetstar (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8445458/workplace-ombudsman-prosecuting-jetstar)

Thank goodness that someone has some balls with this arrangement and it is about time that the architects were brought to account to justify their actions.

The evidence to the Senate Hearings should provide some interesting insight into what was going on.

It doesn't matter about penalties (sort of) but rather a proper legal scrutiny as to what was attempted here to make sure that if actions were against the law there is some accountability.

Lets see how the spinmasters spin this one.

Lets see how the spinmasters spin this one.

If you cant spin it out then you just buy people dont you, you know, with bottles of grange, gold memberships, that sort of thing. Has worked in the past

"As a goodwill gesture, Jetstar has already paid cadets any shortfall between New Zealand and Australian superannuation contributions," the company said.

Cause they're just such nice guys....

This is the best news I have heard for a long time.

It is a very significant step if the process is a a genuine one.

BUT lets heed the warning of these processes by remembering the effectiveness of the HSU investigation. Took forever, no definitive findings of note and complete lack of action.

AM - Imported trainee pilots 'underpaid': Ombudsman 03/04/2012 (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3469541.htm)

Of course J* will vow to fight FWA, it sets a precedent for foreign employed Cabin Crew flying around Australia.

How is this different from ANY of the newly employed Jetstar New Zealand pilots who spend their first 2-3 months with the company completing induction training and their initial line training through to check to line in Australia flying Jetstar Australia services. Perhaps they should also be entitled to Oz Super and conditions for the duration, sounds like a bloody good idea to me. Hopefully this may be the start of the end of these sham companies being set up for the sole purpose of avoiding the Australian pilot award despite the pilots flying VH aircraft on OZ ATPL's to CASA regs. :=

Oldie

Watch this space. Those undertaking line training in Australia are next under the spotlight!!

Cabin crew next once the DIAC have had a look.

More to Follow

The kelpie

Do you think Alan's worried?
Jetstar faces fines over pilot pay | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/business/6686645/Jetstar-faces-fines-over-pilot-pay)
The ombudsman was alleging multiple breaches and is seeking penalties. Each company faced a maximum penalty of $33,000 for each breach.

What this shows me is that the next time a crap contract is offered by an airline then I should take it and undercut everyone else just to get the job. Once I'm in I can bitch about the poor pay and get the Union/ FWA/ Whomever to fix the crappy conditions that I signed up for.
Seems like we are congratulating the poor cadets on going up against the big bad Jetstar when it was them who put their hands up in the first place to undercut the rest of the pilot body just to get ahead. :=

Hear hear! :D

What this shows me is that the next time a crap contract is offered by an airline then I should take it and undercut everyone else just to get the job. Once I'm in I can bitch about the poor pay and get the Union/ FWA/ Whomever to fix the crappy conditions that I signed up for.
Seems like we are congratulating the poor cadets on going up against the big bad Jetstar when it was them who put their hands up in the first place to undercut the rest of the pilot body just to get ahead.

I hear where you are coming from but to not prosecute would just allow the airline to continue getting away with it. It's also not a sure thing so the cadet would still be taking the gamble of having to sleep in the bed that she or he made.

I look forward to hearing how this turns out.

FRQ CB

Interesting. In the aftermath of the freight price fixing, it was made very clear that if you broke the law by acting illegally on company matters that you would lose your job. I'll have to go back and find the exact words but it appears that AJ, BB et al may have breached our own code of conduct in this matter. (I won't bother getting into all the other breaches when AJ insists that pilots are paid more than he is).

I can see where you are coming from, but lets not forget that the Cadets were employed to work in New Zealand. It was only when they had already joined Jetstar that the goalposts were moved on them due to Jetstar incompetence and they were then forced to move to Australia. The majority DID NOT want to live in Australia and frankly could not live in Australia on the contract they did sign. We may not like it, but they do have the right to kick up a fuss when so many of their fundamental terms and conditions were 'changed' on them without their consultation or consent. Jetstar deserves to have to pay for this breach. I love the fact that they are now making out that they put all of this right out of good faith and voluntarily, I seem to recall it was their lawyers that forced them to back down. :ugh::ugh:

How is this different from ANY of the newly employed Jetstar New Zealand pilots who spend their first 2-3 months with the company completing induction training and their initial line training through to check to line in Australia flying Jetstar Australia services. Perhaps they should also be entitled to Oz Super and conditions for the duration, sounds like a bloody good idea to me. Hopefully this may be the start of the end of these sham companies being set up for the sole purpose of avoiding the Australian pilot award despite the pilots flying VH aircraft on OZ ATPL's to CASA regs.

That's a big boo-hoo for you mate :{ Did you read the contract before you accepted it? Did you accept it? You lot have been coming over here for years unencumbered from loans, undercutting the locals, flying for free. Got no sympathy for you lot. Your country is bankrupt, don't bring your problems over here.

Keg,

What your looking for is the "Boards Formal Code of Conduct & Ethics", to comply with Laws, Regulations & Ethical Standards.

Perhaps & submission to the "Whistler Blower" program, which encourages employees to report Illegal, Unethical or Improper behaviour would be appropriate. (how about an AIPA submission on behalf of concerned employees)

But I'm sure it would gain as much of a response as the current Engagement surveys.

MC

Jack,

My point above is that I can't see how this cadet issue is any different than the way Jetstar has been employing people for years now. So why now is it a big issue.

Whose country is 'bankrupt' by the way. I wish I lived in a world like yours where everything was so black and white. Did you ever consider that the contract signed and promises made can actually be altered or broken and that this is where the discontent comes from. :=

One guy I know was offered an EBA position based in New Zealand. Whilst he was on his induction with Jetstar he was informed that Jetstar New Zealand was to be started and the EBA was no longer available to him if he wanted to go to New Zealand. He was assured however that the new company would be totally seperate, with a NZ AOC and its own management and training structure, he was provided with example lifestyle rosters that he could expect. He took the new position as he moved across the globe so that he could live in New Zealand and had no other choice. Eventually as we know, there was no NZ AOC, the company was in no way seperate and the lifestyle rosters never eventuated. So are you saying he should not complain about this shoddy treatment or at least try and hold Jetstar to account??

He warned me off about joining, thankfully. Can you not imagine though how frustrating this kind of deception must be, especially when it means you fly with pilots on a daily basis who are on the EBA and earning up to 50% more than you when you had written guarantees that this would not be the case. Jetstar needs to have people holding them to account for these blatant mistruths and I will support these pilots all the way.

Ollie Onion,

Hear hear!

Do you think Alan's worried?

The ombudsman was alleging multiple breaches and is seeking penalties. Each company faced a maximum penalty of $33,000 for each breach.

I doubt he will be worried. Qantas are accustomed to fines and this one is a relative cheapie! :}

And if Jetstar do receive a fine, the cost will probably be very minimal compared to the financial benefit they have received!

And if Jetstar do receive a fine, the cost will probably be very minimal compared to the financial benefit they have received!

I think that since it involves NZ, then obviously it is an International issue, then any fine/s should be billed to Qantas International Operations.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

@<hidden> ranga.... You know it is not just kiwis that work for Jetstar In New Zealand right?, and personally I think your post is short sighted and pathetic.

You are spot on the guys who accepted the contract knew exactly what is was and signed it. The guys who should be wheelbarrowing the issue of VH registered planes being flown on the Kiwi contract is the Aus guys, and fighting to lift the kiwi's upto eBa level so that there will be less incentive for employment outside the group. More palatable conditions will increase the opportunities for the guys already flying for JQ.

S

The guys who should be wheelbarrowing the issue of VH registered planes being flown on the Kiwi contract is the Aus guys, and fighting to lift the kiwi's upto eBa level so that there will be less incentive for employment outside the group.

You appear to be saying that the Aussie guys should be doing the heavy lifting on your behalf, if that is what you are saying, perhaps you should tell us why aussies should fight your battles for you. Maybe I'm wrong, "please explain".

Whose country is 'bankrupt' by the way.

If you are intimating Australia is bankrupt you might to want to catch up on some news.

I wish I lived in a world like yours where everything was so black and white.

Wish away.

Did you ever consider that the contract signed and promises made can actually be
altered or broken and that this is where the discontent comes from.

First port of call, your union, second, the relevant government employment advocate, third, your own legal action.

One guy I know was offered an EBA position based in New Zealand. Whilst he was on his induction with Jetstar he was informed that Jetstar New Zealand was to be started and the EBA was no longer available to him if he wanted to go to New Zealand. He was assured however that the new company would be totally seperate, with a NZ AOC and its own management and training structure, he was provided with example lifestyle rosters that he could expect. He took the new position as
he moved across the globe so that he could live in New Zealand and had no other choice.

You have always got choices.

Eventually as we know, there was no NZ AOC, the company was in no way seperate and the lifestyle rosters never eventuated. So are you saying he should not complain about this shoddy treatment or at least try and hold Jetstar to account??

As above.

He warned me off about joining, thankfully. Can you not imagine though how frustrating this kind of deception must be, especially when it means you fly with pilots on a daily basis who are on the EBA and earning up to 50% more than you when you had written guarantees that this would not be the case. Jetstar needs to have people holding them to account for these blatant mistruths and I will support these pilots all the way.

Sleep with dogs (Jetstar) you are gunna get fleas. When pilots decide they would give their left testicle to fly eventually the company will find out, they will squeeze that testicle until you are on your knees. I'm no shining light :} but I wouldn't work for the filth. I wouldn't do any job for any employer if they treated me in the fashion you describe. Maybe it's just me but I'm working to pay the bills and for a few 'extras' I don't think I could 'love' any job that much that I would subject myself to that garbage.

@<hidden> ranga.... You know it is not just kiwis that work for Jetstar In New Zealand right?, and personally I think your post is short sighted and
pathetic.


That's your opinion, I'm fine with that, I'm expressing my opinion, that's all.

You are spot on the guys who accepted the contract knew exactly what is was and signed it. The guys who should be wheelbarrowing the issue of VH registered planes being flown on the Kiwi contract is the Aus guys, and fighting to lift the kiwi's upto eBa level so that there will be less incentive for employment outside the group. More palatable conditions will increase the opportunities for the guys already flying for JQ.

Obviously little understanding of what is occurring? The action against Jetstar was initiated by Fair Work Australia for alleged breach of Australian industrial law. The action was not initiated by, nor is it on behalf of any Jetstar employee, they are merely witnesses in the action.

I can't believe some of the attitudes on this thread. If this is how pilots talk to each other and regard each other on a pilot forum then we might as well pack it in - our industry has no hope. I bet Doctors don't talk to each other like this on PDRUNE.

As long as there are more pilots than jobs there will always be pilots ready to take the worst jobs. Please stop this attitude of "you took the job, don't complain." Unless there exists a beautiful nirvana of slightly less pilots than jobs on a sustained basis, this supply/demand equation won't change. So, how do we improve (or at least maintain) some form of quality of professionalism and pay/conditions commensurate with the training, discipline, skills and professionalism required to be an airline pilot? The only answer seems to be to work with the regulators, government and the press to hold to account unscrupulous employers such as Jetstar. This is what appears to be happening here - with some help from pilot associations such as AFAP and AIPA. The Fair Work Ombudsman didn't come up with this idea to prosecute Jetstar on his own.

Support your fellow pilots, support your associations, support the young folk trying to get into the industry and stop tearing each other apart!

Your friend, HF.

What HF said...

:D:D:D

I am 100% aware of what is occurring, I am merely stating that no pilot group is responsible for what is happening. The kiwi guys know their contract as do the oz guys.

My point was that if anything the groups need/ should work together and back each other up to ensure that neither is harming the other. Both groups have plenty to gain, working together and in unison towards a common goal/ eba would be a great outcome for both sides.

I know that this is a thread drift, but hopefully the recent cadet case may shed some light particularly into the fact that eba pilots are losing flying because of the Nz guys being trained in oz on lower conditions and perhaps FWA/aTO may have an opinion in the future

Ps. I do not work in Nz

HF, the medical world would not let unqualified doctors operate on the general public. Years of training occurs before a doctor gets anywhere near a patient.

Jetstar et al want 200 hour green pilots, on commensurately crappy wages, to be trained on the job as it were. Whilst this may work to some degree but what would have happened if the Captain was incapacitated as recently happened in the USA. Maybe green blogs could have handled the situation under otherwise normal conditions, but is maybe what the public believe they are buying?

I can't believe some of the attitudes on this thread. If this is how pilots talk to each other and regard each other on a pilot forum then we might as well pack it in - our industry has no hope. I bet Doctors don't talk to each other like this on PDRUNE.

Mate, seriously, where have you been for the last 15 years?

And on the question of Doctors, do some research on how you get to qualify for a speciality. Learn how tightly the supply of specialists is controlled and by whom.

Comparing Doctors and Jetstar recruitment practices is a good call actually.

I wouldn't step foot on a Jetstar flight for many reasons, one of them being, I want two qualified pilots up front, not one babysitting the other. I don't give a f@<hidden> sh!t how they do it in Europe, Iran, Russia or Turkmenistan for that matter.

If Jetstar is found guilty then it is true that the fines will amount to little more than a slap on the wrist.

What is more important is that Jetstar will have been found out rorting/breaking the law, and that will count against them forever more in anything to do with the industrial arena.

It will be very significant. Ask an ex-con how hard it is to be trusted again.

BB after the senate inquiry as reported by BS Plane talking.

He said loss of foreign cabin crew on those tag flights "would make Jetstar unsustainable across a range of regional destinations"

Theres more at stake than a few $33K fines.

quite correct Mstr caution - the risk game for JQ is high.

The proposed further relaxing of Australian working visa conditions escalates the potential for BB's franchisees to use even more offshore to bypass the bilateral controls.

In effect, this issue sits at the cornerstone of JQ being able to add value to its franchise offering and legitimise dodgy third world airlines under the one star banner.

BB after the senate inquiry as reported by BS Plane talking.

He said loss of foreign cabin crew on those tag flights "would make Jetstar unsustainable across a range of regional destinations"

And from the mother ship:

Qantas spokeswoman Olivia Wirth said if restrictions were placed on the use of overseas-based crew on international services flying between Australian cities it would reduce the viability of several Jetstar routes.

"These tag flights include routes that support inbound tourism to regional centres such as Singapore-Darwin-Cairns," she said in a statement.
(SMH 23 Mar 12) (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/pilots-disappointed-with-senate-report-20120323-1vnuh.html)

Sorry but I don't see how using low-paid labour on domestic tag flight splaces them at a disadvantage as there are no foreign carriers on most such flights. Maybe a tiny handful of services on major routes such as SYD-MEL, but what overseas carriers are flying DRW-CNS?

Can a punter in Sydney even buy a ticket on, say, a UA tag sector between SYD and MEL?

The only competition would be another local carrier, paying crew under local conditions.

Have I got it wrong and foreign carriers are indeed piling into lots of domestic routes on a tag basis, or are there some porky pies being served for lunch?

And as to OW's comment, does a JQ arrival from SIN, continue onto CNS (on the same flight number)? Or would an incoming punter have to connect to a domestic flight from the domestic terminal? If the latter, then how can it be labelled as a tag flight?

Agree with you, T67.

Its an empty threat to discourage the pollies from looking too hard at the issue.

Not that they need much discouragement!:yuk:

If one happened to troll through the rostering of foreign cabin crew, one would discover regular scheduling of foreign CC flying into say MEL, then over the next 4 or 5 days flying MEL -DRW-MEL, staying each overnight in MEL, then returning to their foreign base. Meanwhile, tech crew would continue on to SIN or return to MEL. This is very different to one foreign crew flying into country then flying between ports and out again.

The essential question is: does simply assigning a domestic sector with the same number as a subsequent flight overseas departure (and marketing so) allow the continual and repeated use of foreign labour within Australia? Or is it just like creative accounting? If this is legal then what is preventing foreign labour crews being imported into WA mines on FIFO contracts, and paying them foreign rates? (like GR wants).

The problem with these ars#h@<hidden>, BB, OW, AJ et'al, they are so used to telling whatever lie needs to be told in justifying their behaviour, they really can't see the truth any more!

In the days when Lufthansa and Alitalia operated into Australia TAA used to have an LH cabin attendant operate on the MEL SYD TN leg which connected with LH to FRA... similarly Alitalia operated with a TN cabin attendant to BKK... all in the business of "interlining".

In those days QF had 46% of the passengers arriving in SYD and other airlines were doing anything they could to build their own traffic and TAA was only too pleased to assist.

Interesting that no one is even questioning the Jetstar spin:

However, after trainees were employed in New Zealand under New Zealand terms and conditions, Australia's civil aviation regulator required the trainees to fly from an Australian east coast base for at least a year to ensure they were appropriately supervised by experienced Jetstar pilots.

Now, as I understand it, CASA has no say in how NZ pilots are trained as that rightly remains the responsibility of CAANZ. I understand that the cadets were under contract to Jetstar Airways Limited [NZBN: 1263469] and the consistent evidence from BB/AJ is that they were always intended to fly in NZ.

I do not believe that the TTMRA gives CASA any right to interfere in the sovereign affairs of NZ or vice versa. Once they started flying in Australia, CASA would have oversight, but this Jetstar assertion precedes that eventuality.

So how does CASA get to say anything about how and where they do their line training?

So just what was the real arrangement to which CASA was a party and that appeared to allow CASA to set some ground rules?

What duty does CASA have when becoming aware of arrangements that potentially breach the FWA and avoid Australian industrial law?

Which CASA officer established CASA's requirements? Which CASA officer signed off on the deal?

Now, my understanding of the Jetstar evidence to the Senate Inquiries is that any relationship between Jetstar and the whole truth, transparency and personal integrity could best be viewed as tenuous - at best. Have the 'responsible' CASA officers caught the Jetstar fleas?

My understanding is that having employed these guys to fly in NZ they ran into the brick wall of the NZ regulator who requires them to have significantly more flying experience before operating as F/Os. Having already stuffed up this important point, the geniuses decided that they'd just get them to fly around Australia for 6-12 months until the met the NZ requirements. Thus, they broke Aussie law.

Keg me old,

Does that mean Jetstar left out some key facts?

If CAANZ would not let them fly in NZ due to [in]experience issues, then Jetstar would be fully aware that they were now engaging in an activity that had lost its connection to NZ and therefore any reasonable prospect of justifying avoidance of the FWA. Bugga, that's going to stuff up the 'unintentional error' line big time.

So I guess we can add "intent to avoid" to the other crimes!

I guess that also reinforces the the likelihood that CASA was complicit in the arrangement := := :=

CASA doesn't care about foriegn commercial relationships. As per usual, Jetstar didn't read the rules before embarking on the cadet scheme. NZCAA said f. off and CASA said "ok, but east coast only".

Here's the NZ CAA regs...

121.511 Pilot experience
The certificate holder shall ensure that each person acting as a pilot, other than as pilot-in-command, of an aeroplane, prior to commencing the training specified in Subpart I or Subpart M—
(1)
has acquired at least 500 hours of flight time as a pilot, including at least 100 hours of flight time in air operations; and
(2)
has acquired at least 25 hours of night flight experience; and
(3)
holds a current instrument rating.


Pretty black and white, wonder why the "certificate holder" didn't think it applied to them?
Part 121 - Air Operations - Large Aeroplanes (http://www.caa.govt.nz/rules/Part_121_Brief.htm)