Is it worth it? [Archive]

typhoonboy

1st Apr 2012, 09:40

Well as you may know the industry isn't in the best state at the moment and I am sure many will tell you to stay away. However, if you have the time and the money to do the commercial training and it is what you want to do then do some research and see what you find. That has to be the first step, call some companies up such as OAA, CTC, FTE etc. and search the web (not just pprune) to find out if it's the right step for you. Also if you want to do "anything" have a look at what is available such as bush flying jobs etc. the main point is to research!

The500man

1st Apr 2012, 12:13

call some companies up such as OAA, CTC, FTE etc.

I wouldn't bother doing that. They will all tell you that now is the perfect time to train and you should hand your money straight to them today to get a job on an A320 or B737 tomorrow.

You probably should have a good think about what kind of flying you want to do and then ask for advice from pilots that already do it, and that's where you may find Pprune to be most useful.

wiggy

1st Apr 2012, 12:53

I am not after airline flying only, "any" flying will do really

"Any" flying as in what? Para dropping, glider towing, bizjet? Do you intend to make it your full time career and make a living out of it or is flying something you intend doing for fun at weekends?

And BTW The500man has offered some very sound advice - the last place to go for independant information on the state of the industry is any of the Flying Training Organisations.

jacol

1st Apr 2012, 14:35

Thanks for the replies.

With any flying I mean that, I am aware that the industry is not at its best at the moment, and so I definitely do not expect to walk straight into an airline job the day after I qualify. I would love to make it a career, but I accept that it must be step by step

Yes the FTOs obviously want to stay in business. I have been researching and looking around since I was 17 probably, and was always postponing going in for the ATPL all this time, so much so I got a degree since then! But time is passing by quite quickly... and I do believe that above a certain age... you would have missed your chance

wingreencard

2nd Apr 2012, 02:27

but I accept that it must be step by step you mean you start on small and go on bigger aircraft?
keep dreaming! you don't get it, there is NO job on this market, and no job for the next 10 years probably.IF you get a job, you are one on the 250 pilots to get lucky.
even a Flight instructor make only 100 euro a month with no future and plenty of FI still looking for a job.it's madness!

when you reach 30, they tell you you are too old and the only path is p2f where the airlines receive thousand of cv from desperate pilots.

EU is still in recession with unemployment growing everywhere, the only place on earth where jobs are going to china,... and where the CAA is making you a fool with their 100'000 euro license and 0.0001% job opportunity!
my best advice, keep you private, and wait...and if you see pilots start to be employed (which I doubt), go for it.

smith

2nd Apr 2012, 05:18

"Thanks for the replies.

With any flying I mean that, I am aware that the industry is not at its best at the moment, and so I definitely do not expect to walk straight into an airline job the day after I qualify. I would love to make it a career, but I accept that it must be step by step

Yes the FTOs obviously want to stay in business. I have been researching and looking around since I was 17 probably, and was always postponing going in for the ATPL all this time, so much so I got a degree since then! But time is passing by quite quickly... and I do believe that above a certain age... you would have missed your chance"

You seem to have done a lot of research already, you have a PPLand a degree and you seem pretty clued up on the state of the industry, so really what else is it you want to know? Is it just reassurance you want from others?

jacol

2nd Apr 2012, 08:36

If I asked for reassurance, I would prefer to ask my mum for that rather than a random ppruner :)

Sarcasm apart, I ask because I do not know a single person who got his ATPL/CPL/IR etc, and has not found a job - some as instructors, some with Ryanair, etc.

So the question remains, why is it that many, as evidenced from some comments above, are so negative, but still people out there are still finding jobs...

wingreencard

2nd Apr 2012, 08:45

like lottery,why so many people win eurolotto when millions are playing!

Jazzchill

2nd Apr 2012, 09:39

I understand your position, and the eagerness to fly professionally. Believe me, I do. But please do not let that interfere with good judgement. I know a lot of people who don't find any job once they have finished training. Those that do, fly for companies that suck the joy out of their flying carreer.

Maybe you will find a job, but what price are you willing to pay? Is flying that much fun that you are willing to give up on things like job security and a stable social life? Living in a country that you actually like?
I was lucky, because I began flying for a major airline some 12 years ago, but as Dylan sang 'Times they are a changing'... Chances are I won't retire flying for this airline.

I write this reply from a compound in Saudi Arabia, not because I live here, but just on lay-over. If I were religious, I would thank god on bare knees that I don't have to live and work in this part of the world, that thrives on modern slavery and oppression of other cultures, women etc. But if you would finish your training now, you would not have the luxury to refuse working in such countries. In fact, you would be glad that you got the chance. But then what? Do you really think that after a few years and a few 1000 hours, you'll be able to return to a major airline? If you would be so lucky, you would have to join back at the end of the line, way down on the seniority list.

If I ask myself the question 'Is it worth it?' knowing what I know now, given the current situation in aviation, a strong 'hell NO!' := would be my answer. Hate to rain on your parade, I really do, but be smart. And if you like flying, go get a job that pays well, get your PPL, and have fun! :ok: The reason why sarcasm rules on PPrune is that a lot of people started flying because it was fun, only to realize that there is a dark side to this profession as well...

All the best with your future decisions!

jacol

2nd Apr 2012, 09:43

Yes! Interesting conversation, as we are going back to the original topic...

If you do not participate in the lottery you will never have a chance to win it..., but is it worth it to participate? It's a huge amount of money, and for a person just starting out life... it's quite a thing, unless your parents are paying it all for you (not in my case)

winyadepla

2nd Apr 2012, 10:12

Hi jacol,

There can be a lot of negativity on PPRuNe but there is also an awful lot of useful knowledge on here. Sometimes I get a bit disaffected reading the forums but then you come across a gem of a piece of advice which is well balanced and paints both sides of the picture well. With the number of CPLs issued by the CAA each year I'm sure that not all of them will have found employment. Hopefully those who continue to pursue a flying career will do at some point. Heck, I may end up on the unemployed pilot list at some point but I am going to try hard not to be on it too long.

Is it worth it? I can't really answer that for you. It is a personal decision and something that you will have to answer for yourself. Weigh up the pros and cons, draw up a list of each. Flying, for me, has involved sacrifices. I see friends going on holiday to nice places or buying nice houses but for me it is all about the flying, which I very much enjoy, so it doesn't really bother me.

I can tell you this though, I don't envisage flying as a glamorous career as some people who wear those rose tinted spectacles do. It's damned hard work and I haven't even finished the instrument rating yet. I believe the hardest part is still to come …. finding a job and keeping it!

If you haven't already done so then go get your Class 1 medical at Gatwick. It's a game changer if they wont give you one.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

wiggy

2nd Apr 2012, 12:01

I ask because I do not know a single person who got his ATPL/CPL/IR etc, and has not found a job - some as instructors, some with Ryanair, etc.

That may be true, but the $64000 question is: are those jobs paying those individuals enough money to:

1. Repay any loans taken out to fund training

and

2. Allow themselves (and perhaps their families if applicable) to have a decent lifestyle?

BigNumber

2nd Apr 2012, 16:01

Actually I am of the opinion things are starting to pick up. Note Starting.

Now might not be a bad time to start training following a modular route.

Given 2 years we might be back in a period of recruitment. Demand is rising if you look at the market trends. Much will depend on this summer season.

It aint all doom and gloom for sure.

BN
(European Biz Jet captain on CJ3)

Flaymy

3rd Apr 2012, 11:48

Don't go into flying for a career or the money. It is too uncertain, there are too many out there earning very little considering the up-front costs. the lifestyle is too difficult, puts too much strain on your outside relationships. Learn to program instead and go into management in a specialised tech field in which you will be a £500-a-day consultant in 3 or 4 years.

Go into aviation because you love flying, because you really can't stomach going into an office 9 'til 5 every weekday until you draw a pension. Go into flying because you love uncertainty, the chance that takes you to a new city or the flight deck of a new jet. Go into flying because you want to know that in a years time you might be living somewhere new, doing a totally different type of job. Go into flying because you want to be wandering round a new city in a country you hadn't even visited until last week, having arrived in an aircraft type you hadn't flown until this year, where you speak none of the language beyond asking for a beer, looking for a restaurant and some of that fine local brew; that was me last night.

So yes, take a few lessons before you decide. If you love it then start to take it further. Do all the courses in your own time, by your own choice, where you want to do them. Fly as far as you can, as widely in as varied conditions, places and machines as you can. Then when you finally can get paid to fly look into every type of aviation. Try a few of them if you get the opportunity.

You will live in penury for a few years, having the greatest fun with some of the best people around. You will kick the arse out of life, burning the candle at both ends. You can even stay there, in the dirty, fun end of the business for life if you can take the poor pay and the conditions. Some do.

So no, never, ever, ever do an integrated course; they lead only to large airlines who want automata for the right seat. If you want to operate a computer with a nice view from the office, go into the oil business and move to Calgary.

That is my view of the aviation business. There are many other views. Some love the airlines, but I know more who complain about them and are there for the pay check. Some loathe the dirty and uncertain reality of general aviation, but others would not even look elsewhere.

Clandestino

3rd Apr 2012, 12:25

I do not know a single person who got his ATPL/CPL/IR etc, and has not found a jobI do not know a single person, having a stake in FTO, that would not agree with you, despite me pointing out that jobs outside cockpit (or aviation) don't count towards "getting a job with ATPL" quota.

Where exactly are those green shoots of recoveryIn the exaltation of various training organizations and have been there at least since I've started paying some serious attention to aviation, some two decades ago.

charliegolf

4th Apr 2012, 11:34

I keep giving the same advice (p'raps it's crap!):

Enjoy flying as regularly as you can, on the way to the (I think) 1500 you'll need to be viable. By then, you a) won't be in debt, b) might be looking at a very good outlook in the market- or not, of course. How hard and expensive can CPL/ATPL be when you have all the hours you need already in the log book?

Take the borrowing risk only if the market suggests it. You can have a load of fun on the way.

bleeke

4th Apr 2012, 12:49

Have you considered the military? If you can get in, you get a decent training and you get paid from day one. I know a lot of guys who stayed in for about a decade and afterwards got a decent flying job in civilian aviation. Some years in military flying also looks good on the C.V.

KAG

4th Apr 2012, 13:31

I have been researching and looking around since I was 17 probably, and was always postponing going in for the ATPL all this time, so much so I got a degree since then!

It brings us back in 2005... Which was not such a bad time to get a CPL I believe.

Try Ultra lights and become an ultra light instructor, that's the best flying for so little investment. Since you have a degree, keep your job during the week, and enjoy your weekends doing some real flying.

pudoc

4th Apr 2012, 16:51

You'll hear a load of moaning and groaning about "crap" pay is on here.

The lady who cleans my house speaks 6 languages and charges €33 for 6 hours work.

Put's it into perspective for all you greedy moaners out there who say their job is boring doing the same thing. Beats scrubbing my dirty floors all day.

Looking in the terms and endearments board I'd be delirious with the money some pilots earn.

But still, I wouldn't go into any career for the money.

Dogfactory

4th Apr 2012, 17:30

I believe the majority of people moaning about unemployment are the ones who are searching for a job in the neighbourhood. Aviation is synonimous of working wherever in the world is possible, you can't expect to find it in your town. I don't believe this crap that pilots don't get a job!

Wirbelsturm

4th Apr 2012, 18:39

Q: Is it worth it?

A: Nope.

:sad:

pilotscott

4th Apr 2012, 19:19

michaelmedley

4th Apr 2012, 19:39

I know it depends on individual circumstances and preferences BUT from the networking i have been doing and the research; i do believe you can have fun flying, all the way past 1000+ hours.......then if your flexible and willing no doubt there WILL be jobs around. Just maybe not on THAT aerodrome that you WANT to fly from...

Its only my opinion and i fully understand everyone has their very own circumstances to consider......

Regards

wingreencard

5th Apr 2012, 05:04

are p2f considered as jobs?

michaelmedley

5th Apr 2012, 07:42

If you can afford to P2F and your willing to make a huge career gamble then yes i believe its a job. If you have circumstances where this is not a feasible option then NO its a place to avoid!

I think if the P2F contracts increase or extend over here in the EU then other countries may capitalise on that and bring our pilot across. Again if it is feasible.

I think a certain degree of finding a job MUST come down to who you know and networking?

Please correct me (nicely) if i am wrong?

stoneage

5th Apr 2012, 09:19

Do a PPL and see if flying is for you. But take note that terms and conditions are changing for the pilot.. and not for the better.

talkpedlar

5th Apr 2012, 09:36

You say that you are happy to consider any type of flying... but so are thousands of others.. probably several thousands...who knows?

While the training schools continue to turn out hordes of newly qualified candidates (and with no evidence that there is any improvement in employment prospects) that queue is just getting longer and longer.

Is it worth it? After your years of research, I believe you already know the answer! Good Luck all the same. TP

BerksFlyer

5th Apr 2012, 18:57

If you can afford to P2F and your willing to make a huge career gamble then yes i believe its a job. If you have circumstances where this is not a feasible option then NO its a place to avoid

It isn't some sort of philosophical question whether or not paying to fly is a job. It isn't a job. And that's that.

A job is something that you do and get remunerated for.

BigNumber

5th Apr 2012, 19:15

Flying is a relatively low skill job for the amount of kudos it is believed to hold.

Each time I trundle past Concorde House at LGW there are plenty of grinning kids that are the spit of 'the milky bar kid'. (if you are old enough to remember the adverts?)

Why are they there? I think we all know the answer and it's got stuff all to do with a desire to fly.

Sadly, this means that salary levels will constantly be under pressure whilst the perceived job kudos remains high. Joe Public aint going to pay for our pose. He will however enjoy some cheap airfares.

Those of us already in the system (I am ex Military now flying a CJ3) are absolutely stuck where we are. There is no movement up or even horizontally.

Nothing can be done.

Every month more 'milky bar kids' remortgage their parents house and further kill the profession. King Canute demonstrated his inability to hold back the tide. You will understand the metaphor. Tarquin has sold his folks the dream; he's on his way now. No post on pprune will cast doubt on his FTO's advise; confirmation bias is ticked, and cheques are signed.

Some very silly little boys paid Cabair £70k up front; lost every single penny with nothing to show for it. The very next day these same idiots were seeking to 'start over' ; paying the whole again to join another integrated course.

This fact alone best demonstrates the mindset of those seeking to join the profession and why sadly, no, it is not worth it on any level.

Still coming though aren't you.:(

macdo

5th Apr 2012, 21:55

Its only worth it if you really, I mean really, want to fly for a living. Any other motivation, you should get a job that gives you a life.

The500man

6th Apr 2012, 14:10

Hi Guys

I have a UK CPL and trying to build some hours.. Willing to fly for free... plse contact myself.

Saw this in the UKGA newsletter today. This guy obviously has no clue what working for free achieves. Unfortunately everyone else that would like to work as a pilot is up against tools like him. :ugh:

mutt

6th Apr 2012, 15:23

Is it worth it?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7055/7050872177_4698ce9187_z.jpg

You decide....

wingreencard

7th Apr 2012, 03:04

you can not see the wings from the cockpit, if you want a nice view , take a ticket with a lcc, and buy a simulator nitendo (if it exists). so you can play the pilot.

considering the recession, not worth to invest 100'000 euro in a training which will bring you to the long line of unemployed pilots (by thousand) or waiting for years for a pay to fly program.

with 100'000 euro, you can buy a nice house somewhere, or have your little glider,...or money for your kids, education, you can keep it and save it at 4-5%, that bring you 416 euro a month.with compound interest after 30 years, you make 432'194 euro.1800 euro a month at 55-60 years old when most pilots will be in the street!:}.

mutt

7th Apr 2012, 04:56

you can not see the wings from the cockpit, I hate to state the obvious, but where do you think that photo was taken from?

Mutt

Jazzchill

7th Apr 2012, 08:06

Wingreencard could not be more right! Just listen to the people that have walked the walk. Don't let any picture of a beautiful cloud deck fool you... Last time I checked, pictures don't pay bills... :ugh:

Wirbelsturm

7th Apr 2012, 16:18

I hate to state the obvious, but where do you think that photo was taken from?

The cockpit of a very small jet? Gulfstream?

A319, wings are in good view, A320 just the wing fences, A321 Nowt, B777 Forget it, especially the 300!!! Want to see the wings, go down the cabin. B744 The wing tips are bl**by miles back, damn swept wing 70's coal burner!

Most of the time you just get to see black with a couple of 'prutty stars'.

Still not worth it.

redsnail

7th Apr 2012, 17:22

Hey Mutt, if they think a Gulfstream is very small jet, then I'd hate to think what they'd describe a Hawker....

For me, it's worth it. But it wasn't an easy journey.

mutt

7th Apr 2012, 18:41

Still not worth it. Maybe if you flew a very small jet like a Gulfstream, you might have a different opinion :):)

BigNumber

7th Apr 2012, 19:13

Christ Alive!

I shudder to think what these 'milky bar kids' (CTC / Ryan Loser etc etc) would make of my CJ3.:eek:

Are we really such under achievers or is pprune populated by clueless noodles?

I do not remember seeing CJ's ( or the stunning Gulfstream range ) described with such distain in the marketing literature. Perhaps we have all been fooled?

Or; perhaps not/.:E

Wirbelsturm

7th Apr 2012, 19:31

Mutt,

I've flown very small, very fast jets (single&dual seat), slightly bigger multi engine jets, multiple helicopter types and medium and large passenger jets.

Medium and Large passenger jets are boring but pay for my retirement.

Would I recommend it to my kids these days? Nope, not worth it.

As the meerkat says 'Simples'.

BigNumber

7th Apr 2012, 20:12

Blimey; you're the man!

Whats types have you flown then?

Dogfactory

8th Apr 2012, 10:12

Artie Fufkin

8th Apr 2012, 11:05

I've flown very small, very fast jets (single&dual seat), slightly bigger multi engine jets, multiple helicopter types and medium and large passenger jets.

Medium and Large passenger jets are boring but pay for my retirement.

Would I recommend it to my kids these days? Nope, not worth it.
It's usually the guys who join airlines direct from the military or straight from school/university who hold this view. Most people who have done a "proper" job before aviation and seen what the alternative really entails usually think differently.

Wirbelsturm

8th Apr 2012, 13:19

The same old story... the rockstar who says "nevermore", the DJ who says "never for my children", the engineer that claims "it is not worth it", and then comes the coolest of top-guns who goes "I did the silliest thing in my life".
I hate all these lies from successful people who likes to play modesty aligning with the rest of us mortal souls. Come on, you're cool, you're a star among the gods, so cut this crap of regreting what you did in your life... otherwise I would think that the old motive "who has bread has no teeth" suits you very well. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cwm13.gif

This made me chuckle.

What makes you think I regret anything I have done? The OP asked the question as to wether it is worth getting in to aviation in the current environment. In my opinion, under the current accountants attacks on T's & C's, no it isn't. What I have done previously under different terms, which also included various flying jobs prior to the airlines for various flying types, is irrelevant. Mutt just alluded to flying smaller jets, been there, done that.

There is no 'cool', no 'super star' just right place, right time in my case, I consider myself to be a perfectly average pilot, occasionally lucky!

The military is contracting, the fast jets getting ever more automated, GA is becoming ever more expensive and Airlines are being taxed out of existance by a 'pro business' Government.

Personally, I really couldn't care what you think of me, I would NOT recommend my kids getting into aviation. The changes I have seen over more than a quarter of a century of professional flying have left me with one impression, that which sees the profession being driven into the dust by the public demanding ever cheaper tickets, the accountants demanding ever greater productivity and the Government seeing Aviation as a 'Green' tax cash cow.

But then I retire fairly soon so it will be your trainset to mess around with. Just don't screw up the training as I might well be in the back but, trust me, I won't be to one shouting about it. It's just a job.

Enjoy Easter. :E

wingreencard

9th Apr 2012, 02:32

worth to join an airline and airline pay for everything?yes
worth to join the air force and they pay for everything?yes
worth to join a flight school and you pay for EVERYTHING(line training, type rating, CPL,...)? NOOOO !!!

Flaymy

9th Apr 2012, 08:39

Worth listening to a person who thinks that flight schools offer line training?
Worth listening to a person who appears not to recognise anything between full sponsorship and pay-to-fly through line training?

wingreencard

A more balanced, reasoned approach would be far more helpful than your hysteria. There are plenty of people for whom in some circumstances this is worth it. I know many of them who with little risk and without terrible financial strain have found themselves in jobs they love.

Of the many trainee pilots I knew years back I only know of two that never really got into flying jobs, and I could have predicted both would have difficulty within 5 minutes of meeting them - and one of those nearly surprised me, being very unlucky to have lost a job at the line-training stage. I am no longer in touch with the other, so maybe I misjudge him too.

It has taken a while for some of them, but with certain abilities, certain character and the willingness to work hard and invest the chances are very good indeed. To you that hard work and investment might not be worth the rewards. Your path might have been harder, risks higher and so you struggle to get a job you enjoy. That is personal.

Artie Fufkin

9th Apr 2012, 11:44

I started the integrated course in 2010, which was after 2 years of recession and betting on a positive outcome by this year. But nonetheless, here we still are in recession in Europe.

Oh and FTO are just out to get your money, it shows how arrogant some of them are: We have pilot jobs, enroll today, get hired tomorrow!.

Interestingly, I flew with an FO yesterday who started training in 2010. I asked him how the rest of his course had done, was he one of the lucky few to find paid employment? "No", he answered, he was one of the last to find a paying job.

Bealzebub

9th Apr 2012, 16:53

Is it worth it?

Only the individual asking asking the question can answer that.

I am amazed at the number of people who loiter on these forums simply to wring their hands with tales of woe. This has never been an easy profession to embark on, and in that respect it is little different now. As with almost every industry there has been an evolution, and success (or survival) often depends on an ability to adapt to that evolution.

Trainee pilots are still gaining employment even in these difficult economic times. I know, because I see it happening. The process by which success is likely has most definetaly evolved, and a great many people wallow in their own denial for whatever reason, but I would say for those with resource, ability, maturity, and luck, then yes it is most certainly "worth it."

I have been very lucky, in that aviation has provided me with a continuous, well paid, interesting, and structured career for the last three and a half decades. I am far from unique in that respect. I see no reason for aviation not to continue to do that for people starting off on a similar path today. Certainly, many aspects of the industry have changed but that is equally true in most other industries.

The risks and challenges are not for the faint hearted, nor are they for the daydreamers, lazy, or the under researched. Forums such as this one invite many of the latter groups to take up residence and that is the nature of the beast. However for those with the real determination and ability and resource, I would say it is most definetaly worth it.