Big Black Fence At MAN AVP

[donnlass]

Does anyone know whats with this fence at MAN AVP?

Was there today and by time this is finished, no-one will be able to sit down any more and watch aircraft, never mind take any pictures.

I asked in the Burger Hut and they guy said it was due to some new rules.

What rules have come into force that are going to destroy the AVP?

Fence At MAN AVP | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/michele04/7031888483/)

Does whoever thought this up have any idea of how this will affect the number of people going there?

Whats the point if you cant see anything?:ugh::ugh::ugh::=:=


It used to be a beautiful place to plane spot, now it looks like Colditz going up.

All they need now is a few watchtowers to go up and guards with machine guns and it will be perfect - NOT!

[purplehelmet]

@ donnlass i think the veiwing mounds are to be raised to compensate for the new fence.:ok:

[donnlass]

Aye but that would look daft and what about when there are loads of people say at an event, like the first time the A380 arrived.

Not everyone can fit on those mounds, how can they fit thousands of people at once?

People want to sit on the flat areas at the tables and watch, my partner had perfected taking photos through the fence of planes and we are both disabled now to an extent and cant really stand for that long.

And for people sitting in the restaurant and watching? It wont be possible.

Ok bring chairs I know but that isnt always convenient.

I can still see numbers plummeting of visitors once this is finished.:(:ouch:

[mad_jock]

The DFT have regulated that fences need to be able to survive a 45 ton truck being rammed into them.

Its not something that only MAN have dreamt up to annoy the people using the viewing area.

[Tom the Tenor]

It is all about Customer Care and Passenger Safety! :=

[donnlass]

Its not something that only MAN have dreamt up to annoy the people using the viewing area.



Oh I know its not MAN but some Civil Service pencil pusher with nothing else better to do.


Honestly!!!!


As long we're safe, but we cant see.





Thanks for that everyone.:ok::ok:

Appreciate your replies:O:O


Mmmm many trucks tend to go ramming at MAN?


I had a look at a 45 ton truck on google and they look just a bit bigger than the push back trucks.

Might someone go amok in one of those?

Maybe.

[Daysleeper]

I suspect it's not the weight of the truck per say but what it may be carrying that worries them.

Ginsters pies for instance, I see plenty of trucks hauling them, i mean are they VATable or not , hot, cold, cooling, warming at home aaargrgrgrgrgghhgghg. Safer to just ban the lot of them and build a bloody big fence.

[srobarts]

You might have expected someone somewhere would find a different solution to stopping a 45 ton truck that didn't obscure the view. It is a while since I visited the MAN AVP but I would have thought that a concrete crash barrier could easily perform the same function without blocking peoples view. Is it too much to ask for someone think outside the box in a way that keeps all parties happy?

[Out Of Trim]

I don't think any fence would stop a 45 tonne truck and why bother when you could crash through a Crash Gate.. designed for Fire Vehicles to crash through!

Some of the larger pushback trucks can weigh 70 tonnes! :D

[Daysleeper]

You might have expected someone somewhere would find a different solution to stopping a 45 ton truck that didn't obscure the view.

I was going to suggest a victorian HA-HA

[purplehelmet]

You might have expected someone somewhere would find a different solution to stopping a 45 ton truck that didn't obscure the view. It is a while since I visited the MAN AVP but I would have thought that a concrete crash barrier could easily perform the same function without blocking peoples view. Is it too much to ask for someone think outside the box in a way that keeps all parties happy?
funny you should say that srobarts, i was up there the other week and they were putting in a concrete crash barrier between the carpark and the grass area.:confused:

[srobarts]

I was going to suggest a victorian HA-HA - love the idea - one problem is to find one jobsworth who a) knew what it was and b) could see how effective it would be!

i was up there the other week and they were putting in a concrete crash barrier between the carpark and the grass area - so did someone have a vision and a jobsworth also do what he was told?

[donnlass]

And all that razor wire over the top.

Whats all that about?

Is the big bad 45 tonner going to climb over it?

[mad_jock]

Without getting into it the fence has to have a certain standard.

Its fine mesh is so that it takes longer to cut through ie more strands need to be clipped.

The razor wire is obviously there to stop folk just climbing over the top.

I have seen "them" go through a fence like that, to be honest they are pissing in the wind if they think its going to stop anyone with a bit of training who really wants to get in.

It will though however stop anyone that wants to make say a demonstration or is having mental health problems.

I would have guessed the 45 ton truck was set because of an intelligence operation that the ramming a 45 ton lorry through was the method of entry. Similar to the fluids thing for carry on bags. They found out someone was planning to use liquid explosives so had to do something about it.

MAN have always seemed to promote the viewing areas and seem to include them in there plans.

I for one hope this continues, we have usually completed the taxi checks by the firestation and always wave back to the kids if they wave as we taxi past.

[ATNotts]

If it's so vital to stop 45 tonne trucks crashing through UK airport fences, why is it not necessary for the same defences to be in place in airports across many European countries?

The UK mantra of "security is paramount" comes to mind.

Witness the restriction on drop offs in front of airport terminals, which simply aren't required at other major airports across Europe.

Every time the UK takes knee jerk reactions, the terrorists win.

[Planemike]

ATNotts.......................

Couldn't agree more but the politicians and those at the top: feel they have done something, think they look better and consider they have protected us. In the meantime freedoms of the individual have been eroded. Does that bother them? Not in the least.

Planemike

[Skipness One Echo]

Funy thing, I saw a fence replaced recently at XYZ which was taller but without the horrible mesh. Won't say where but it's next to a road at a busier airport than MAN......

[Tim_Q]

Oh so that's what the APD increase is for!!

[ShyTorque]

Digging a trench would have been cheaper, I'd have thought.

[mad_jock]

Prob scared someone would fall down it.

[donnlass]

Hopefully the prat who thought all this up in the fiirst place:ugh::=

[take-off]

wonder if they'l drop the parking fees a bit, considering you cant see so much, as has been said before, not going to see much, unless your on the mounds, and not everybody will fit on them:ugh: dont visit as much as i used to now, so will see if its a bad as it sounds, otherwise will be visiting even less.

[Espada III]

I was as the AVP yesterday and whilst I thought the lower Heras style fence was a bit unnecessary and useless, the main fence was acceptable and I was standing on the grass with my little dog.

And then I was asked to leave as dogs are not allowed. If the fence is meant to stop terrorists, surely it can stop a dog?

[750XL]

And then I was asked to leave as dogs are not allowed. If the fence is meant to stop terrorists, surely it can stop a dog?

It does clearly state no dogs are allowed as you enter the park AFAIK.

I think the no dogs thing is more to stop them sh!tting all over which is fair enough considering the amount of children etc, imo.

[ManofMan]

The dog ban is nothing to do with children etc etc, the security people deemed that dogs working in a group would be able to dig a hole under the fence big enough to fit through a 45 tonne truck.

Makes sense to me.

[srobarts]

My springer spaniel is gutted, he just loves jet noise. His favourite viewing place is Lakenheath. On his last visit he got the full effect of a pair of F-15s taking off on full reheat.

[Espada III]

Bizarrely (Whilst I was more than compliant once I was advised of the ban by a lady was very polite about it) I did not see any of the signs despite the fact they were in front of my face. Sometimes one concentrates so much on; in this case; getting the ticket that you don't see the important thing three inches below.

She mentioned the dog that ran on the runway issue from a few months ago as the reason, although the fences are pretty secure. It was a pity as the other children at the AVP were enjoying playing with the dog more than watching the planes.

[rcmarple]

Loose lips sink ships. Reading this, the bad guys will know to get a 46t truck now.

I'll get my coat...

[FLCH]

Give me a break, the mods or others would have pulled the thread if there was any validity to your claim.

Besides think about it, the bad guys want something spectacular something the world would take notice of, what is a 46t truck going to do ?

A 200t airplane impacting elsewhere would be something else.

[mad_jock]

he was taking the wee with the 46t truck.

Any one with even a hint of engineering savy would be able to put a huge hole in the theory that this fence would stop anything apart from an accidental ramming.

Shy's ditch with a row of tank traps before or after it sculpted into seating would be more use.

But you can't tell these types, if you start pointing out the flaws in there thinking it doesn't help matters.

What they need to get is a QSMI from the Royal Engineers to advise them on what works and then build something and then get 5-10 sappers to try and get through it, which they will.

[chiglet]

She mentioned the dog that ran on the runway issue from a few months ago as the reason

Dogs have been on airfields since Pontius was a Pilate.... for example
Once [as a Runway Controller] I was told to fire my bird scaring Very pistol at a dog on the airfield. I aimed wide, but the dog tried [fortunately unsuccessfully] to pick up the live cartridge. Again, from the Tower, we watched the Plod drop a PC off at the old link Bravo to catch a stray doggie :p {JA1} down the now Twy J. B. then catching the dog....which promptly escaped, running down Twy C towards the old Fairies Apron [Western Maintainance] where it swanned off home. This took 15 or so enjoyable minutes.
In the word of Dave Cl*se "Don't bother about dogs on the Runway, they are frangible"

[mad_jock]

And then there was a dog from a biz jet which got off and wandered into the middle of the taxiway and then squeezed out what looked like half its body weight.

The twr controller got quite upset about that. Cheered our day up though.

[FLCH]

he was taking the wee with the 46t truck.



Maybe he was taking the urine.

But come on don't you think the gate people at AVP know what to look for when it comes to looking at bad people ?

I'm on the other side of the fence I sure would hope so !!

[mad_jock]

err nope. They are just one visable line of security which filters out a few types of risk. The mentally ill and attention seeking type of incident.

The really bad guys which would actually do you harm hopefully are nipped in the bud before they get to do anything by the other layers of security.

[donnlass]

While our enjoyment of the Viewing Park is further ruined having been first turned from a plane spotter's paradise to a "Visitor Attraction" sorry place for parents to bring their kids when a park isnt available and now totally trashed by not being able to see anything from the flatter areas when they have spent so much money on them.

You couldnt make it up.

[purplehelmet]

How dreadfull for you, How can big grown up spotters be expected to grapple with the complexities of gawping slack jawed at planes landing and taking off and obtaining the all important reg numbers at the same time whilst being distracted by excited kids running about the place.

Its enough to drive you to your local motorway bridge and do something really childish, such as collecting Eddie Stobarts truck reg numbers:}
how very grown up of you to post an anti-spotting post on a plane spotting thread.:D :ugh:

[pwalhx]

"While our enjoyment of the Viewing Park is further ruined having been first turned from a plane spotter's paradise to a "Visitor Attraction" sorry place for parents to bring their kids when a park isnt available and now totally trashed by not being able to see anything from the flatter areas when they have spent so much money on them.

You couldnt make it up. "

And of course they have done this just out of spite not because they have been required to do it! Consider maybe they would have preferred not to!

[MAN777]

Don't know what the fuss is all about, the new fence can still be seen through, the mounds have been raised (at great expense) and a compromise was made by placing the concrete blocks around the car park instead of at the fence base, which would have made it higher still.

[Skipness One Echo]

And of course they have done this just out of spite not because they have been required to do it!

Um....is this sort of thing happening anywhere else? I rather love the ability to shoot through the fence a good part of the way round LHR, GLA, EDI, PIK, ABZ, STN etc etc.

[donnlass]

Um....is this sort of thing happening anywhere else? I rather love the ability to shoot through the fence a good part of the way round LHR, GLA, EDI, PIK, ABZ, STN etc etc.


Hope not, my partner had perfected that at MAN as well.

Oh well, the smaller higher mounds near the testing bay are a good spot as well:ooh:

[Hotel Tango]

jamesferns,

You have to understand that there are different categories of enthusiasts. Those that merely wished to look at planes and/or "collect aircraft numbers", as you put it, were perfectly happy to do so from ground level. This left the mounds relatively free for the photographers. You will find that a high percentage of aviation hobby photographers are not actually number crunchers. The problem now is that if views from ground level are more restricted this will encourage more spectators to use the mounds and these mounds have very limited capacity.

[purplehelmet]

[QUOTE=jamesferns;7119199]Im not anti spotter PH.
oh really? so far on this thread and the photo thread you have used the terms "witless spotter>these spotter types>some moronic spotter."
and described spotting as something for youngsters to do and basically not childish adults.
whats wrong with you man? its a hobby much like your bird watching and military history, open to all ages not just kids.
if you dont like it go some where else instead of berating other peoples hobbies and pastimes.

[donnlass]

Im not anti spotter PH did it myself as a sprog, However i do find it rather rich that a supposed adult is bemoaning the fact youngsters are allowed into "her" spotting arena, surely collecting aircraft numbers is something that is done in the main by youngsters so should we not be encouraging them rather than bemoaning the fact that kids having fun are spoiling the fun of bigger kids who perhaps have not really quite grown up yet

Get a life donnlass FFS


Hi James:)


I think you have misunderstood what I was saying there.

I dont mind kids who plane spot and take down numbers.

Thats great and they are the next generation after all and are after all very intelligent about their hobby.

[MAN777]

Been to the AVP or RVP today to check out the fence situation. The mesh is indeed quite high but it doesn't impede on your view towards the runway. Two of the mounds have been made higher for the photographers but unfortunately the addition of a roll of razor wire on top of the fence appears not to have been used in the overall height calculations for the mounds as the wire seems to get in the shot unless you are careful.

The concrete blocks that normally go under the fence have been set back around the car park edge (bit like tank traps) and cunningly covered in decking wood to create planters and seating, I think this is done more for looks than secrecy. It does actually look very nice so full marks to the management for this clever compromise.

[jabird]

What about at LCY? Surely you could pack some ammo into a dinghy and get far closer to the runway than you could at any other airport by virtue of its location.

[mad_jock]

I ain't a spotter I just drive the things you like taking pics of.

As such I suspect I visit more airfields than most spotters.

To be honest I think MAN should be thanked not critisied for all the efforts and money they provide to keep even some form of viewing area. Not many other airfields proved such a site. Most places that bit of ground would have been turned into car parking.

The fact is that the DFT dictate what they have to surround thier airfield with in regards to fencing. Then they have to do all the H&S and DFT risk assesments for the viewing area.

The taking to pieces of security and how there is holes in every setup is common conversation amongst pilots. Its not MAN that you should be focusing on its the DFT.

You should be saying poor sods at MAN have had another dictate issued but good on them for for lifting the viewing mounds and keeping the place open.

[Donkey497]

I'm not wishing to doubt anybody, or complicate the issue, but I seem to recall that a particular requirement for airport fire tenders was the ability to go straight through the fence in any given straight line to get to anywhere outside the fence in the unfortunate event of a departing aircraft failing to keep a positive rate of climb outside the fence.

As an engineer, I'm well aware that you can preferentially strengthen structures, and promote failure in a particular direction when loaded, but any change to a design has to be proven. If this has come from the wizards in whitehall and applies nationally, does this mean that every airfield has to think about re-equipping their fire service or having to reinforce the cabs of their heavy engines?

[DX Wombat]

If you get fed up with the view - or lack of it, you can always indulge in a little trout fishing. (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/ever-tried-trout-fishing-at-manchester-airport-.html) ;)

[take-off]

Does anybody know,if any other airports have started putting up the big black fences? I know not alot happens at Blackpool airport, but thers no sign of any new fencing going up, mind don't think its really necessary there for whats goes on there during the day...:confused::{

[BTNH]

a bit of topic
The road from the romper to the RVP is in a bit of a mess (with bad potholes going from the RVP to the romper)

[donnlass]

It is you're right there.

The AVP is owned by Bollin Valley Partnership but not sure about the road from the Romper, possibly the Council, Greater Manchester maybe?

If they left the runways in that state???????:(:(

[spottilludrop]

If the latest EU madness in the form of this latest directive making any areas overlooking a airfield off limits if there within a 2km of the runway go ahead as it is expected too then its the end of spotting areas as we know them, Total lunacy and a victory for terrorism:sad:

[Hotel Tango]

Are you sure that it's an EU directive? I know not of such. Plenty of excellent up close spectator areas on mainland Europe. The directive you speak of may only relate to preventing vehicles raming through fences etc. At the end of the day if a well organised terrorist cell want to have a pop at an airliner there are plenty of possibilities on the approach path anywhere from say 6 miles out. Stronger and more secure fences may deter the odd looney (they still exist) but nothing, I say again NOTHING, will deter a well trained and determined terrorist.

[MAN777]

Areas 2 km from runway off limits !

Well thats all of Wythenshawe taken care of then:D

[donnlass]

How about the mound of grass just before the tunnels on the Wilmslow Road where the runway goes over the tunnels.

All that space on right side of the tunnels could easily hide someone with a rocket launcher or small missile.

How guarded is that?

Is there any way of spotting people who shouldnt be there?


And how is anyone going to be able to rev a vehicle up in the AVP to enough sped to ram the fence?

They would have to get the barrier and then even if they wanted a straight run they would have to wind their way around the mound, then there's the picnic tables to get around.

Now if anyone happens to drive a 45 ton truck into the AVP everyone will wonder what they're up to lol.

[DX Wombat]

Donnlass, read the link in my post no 48

[ConstantFlyer]

If the latest EU madness in the form of this latest directive making any areas overlooking a airfield off limits if there within a 2km of the runway go ahead as it is expected too then its the end of spotting areas as we know them

Spot

Do you have a source for this? I know of no recent or pending EU communication (a Directive is just one type of many) covering this.

CF

[ZOOKER]

donnlass has a point.
The AVP must be well-endowed with image recording technology. - Carried by most of those who visit it to 'view aviation'.
As the access to this area is controlled and most of it's clients are enthusiasts with good intent, surely it makes partial sense to have the fence on the outer perimeter of the AVP. Otherwise the terrorist chaps are laughing at us.
No matter how high or strong you make the fence, or how much razor-wire adorns it, at some point, aeroplanes will appear above it, either landing or taking-off. It's the nature of the operation.
Do you designate a trumpet-shaped 'exclusion-zone' at each end of every runway to protect a/c until they are above the 'RPG/small-arms engagement-altitude'?
Plenty of places to hide in Tatton and Bruntwood Parks and no razor-wire.

[donnlass]

Wow Wombat!

I had no idea that was there, is it part of Runway Two Nature Trail?

We have always meant to walk it sometime but yes anyone can get down there with anything they like and I dont mean fishing rods:eek:

[donnlass]

Or even the corner of Shadowmoss Road is a classic area for firing a missile if someone is desperate enough as planes are seconds from landing and just lifting off.

[DX Wombat]

Sorry Donnlass I don't know where it is exactly. I just saw the article mentioned somewhere so had a look at it.

[donnlass]

Thats ok Wombat, thanks for posting it.


Someday we may be able to do the walk and have a look ourselves.


Would love to see planes coming in from that angle:ok::)

[air pig]

If you had any real intent to cause damage, easy option, as was shown by the PIRA in approx 1990 in Whitehall in London, use a transit type van, fill it with mortar tubes with a remote timer and park it near by, say the farms on Roaring Gate Lane and aim at the frieght terminal hard standings or the remote parking areas or on any of the quiet areas near the new runway. Not difficult if you're determined and have absorbed the lessons of history.

By the way, no signs of any improvements of this nature at Liverpool or Oxford. Is MAN just over interpreting any instructions.

[speedbird9274]

Our perimeter fence at Leeds / Bradford has been raised to about nine feet plus the razor wire. Obviously taking photo's of aircraft departing rw32 is a little more awkward from the Multiflight road, however in my opinion, the smaller mesh, with a thinner gauge wire makes taking a photo through the wire less of a problem.

[d71146]

Perhaps the game plan is to dissuade folk from visiting the park then close it down citing lack of visitors.
Just my view though.

[donnlass]

But what would be the point of that?

Seeing that it is run by Bollin Valley not the airport.