Dambusters the Movie - more rumours

[LurkerBelow]

Managed to get a trip to Wellington, Miramar and Weta's shop / museum today.
During a conversation with one of the staff, it appears that the Dambuster film is still 5+ years away. Sir Peter Jackson is committed to several big projects (Hobbit, Tintin 2 at least).
An interesting snippet is that apparently a large tranch of war-time archives has been recently de-classified - so much so that Stephen Fry who has been working on the script for the movie is said to have thrown his current efforts away and starting from scratch again.
Can anybody closer to the archives shed any light on what has surfaced?

[Stuff]

1 reply and we're already going off topic - I apologise. The tenuous link is that Stephen Fry is clearly still thinking about 617 Sqn as he's only just tweeted a link promoting their charity fund raising.

[beamer]

Hopefully Messrs Jackson and Fry will be far too busy to ever remake a movie which does not need remaking. God forbid that the political correctness brigade will bring in the inevitable baggage that they promote above and beyond the name of the dog. Ok, the original is not completely accurate, the special effects not so special but they did have three Lancs to play with alongside a few Lincolns in the distance. Scampton had not changed very much and most of the cast had served in the war and thus looked the part unlike those in 633 which looked as it they had just walked off 1960's Carnaby St which indeed they probably had just done so.

Leave it !

[Ewan Whosearmy]

How can you say it "doesn't need remaking" when you don't even know what's been declassified?

If the objective is to accurately portray history, and the declassified files show that the original does not do so, then where does that leave your argument?

[beamer]

Ok then, we'll have half a dozen Yanks to fly with McCarthy in a B17. We know about the dog which we'd better have in yellow rather than black. A bit of sex in the mess just to spice things up a bit and lets give the enemy a more human side whilst we are about it. Concentrate on the victims not the heroes, bags of computer graphics, we'll get Glenn Miller into no. 2 hangar for a wheeze and lets see Gibson throwing his VC into the River Ouse as an act of contrition.

Was the Great Escape accurate - no, Longest Day - no, Zulu - no etc etc.
If Jackson wanted to make a new fictional movie on the subject of the sacrifice made within Bomber Command, then fine, no problem. Perhaps he could attempt a decent rendition of Birdsong after the recent weak BBC effort.

If you want absolute accuracy, which after seventy years will be difficult, then go and read the documents and books, then exercise your imagination.:E

[Clockwork Mouse]

If you really believe that the objective of any commercial adventure film is accurately to portray history, you must live on a different planet to mine.

[Lottery Winner]

Ok then, we'll have half a dozen Yanks to fly with McCarthy in a B17. We know
about the dog which we'd better have in yellow rather than black. A bit of sex
in the mess just to spice things up a bit and lets give the enemy a more human
side whilst we are about it. Concentrate on the victims not the heroes, bags of
computer graphics, we'll get Glenn Miller into no. 2 hangar for a wheeze and
lets see Gibson throwing his VC into the River Ouse as an act of
contrition.

Was the Great Escape accurate - no, Longest Day - no, Zulu -
no etc etc.
If Jackson wanted to make a new fictional movie on the subject
of the sacrifice made within Bomber Command, then fine, no problem. Perhaps he
could attempt a decent rendition of Birdsong after the recent weak BBC
effort.

If you want absolute accuracy, which after seventy years will be
difficult, then go and read the documents and books, then exercise your
imagination.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


(Clutching handbag tightly to chest) Ooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh!

[Lima Juliet]

computer graphics, we'll get Glenn Miller into no. 2 hangar for a wheeze and lets see Gibson throwing his VC into the River Ouse as an act of contrition.

Surely the River Witham or Foss Dyke would be more accurate? I don't know, it would be a lack of attention to detail like this that would make your proposal so unenjoyable and inaccurate to me...:p

LJ


;)

[Samuel]

Beamer:"A bit of sex in the mess just to spice things up a bit"

Buggeur, I've missed out again!

[Squirrel 41]

Dumb question time: how many close-to-flyable Lancasters are there? Is NX611 close to flying? How many were they planning on using? If it's all going to be CGI, then why bother?

S41

[racedo]

Hope it never gets made as quite simply even inaccurate the old movie is there as a part of history..................

In the words of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park
"Just because you can.............doesn't mean you should"

[Buster Hyman]

Can anybody closer to the archives shed any light on what has surfaced?
Yes. Gibsons other dog was called Raving Mad Queen, hence Fry's re-write.

[subsonicsubic]

Whatever happened to Red Tails? There have been ads for the movie on Youtube for over a year yet nothing has materialized?

[Whenurhappy]

Does anyone have any more details on what archives have been 'recently declassified'?

As far as I am aware, the overwhelming majority of wartime archives at Kew have been available to the public for quite some time, with the exception of some SOE and SIS files, so that surviving 'sources' and 'assets' and their descendants are protected. Air Historical Branch routinely ensures that RAF records are transferred to Kew on a regular basis, and thus hold very few original documents themselves.

Could this be German or other Allied archives?

[Pontius Navigator]

Ok then, we'll have half a dozen Yanks to fly with McCarthy in a B17.

Guess they would have to use the Boulder Dam in Colorado as most of the audience won't have heard of little ole england.

We know about the dog which we'd better have in yellow rather than black.

Pluto perhaps?

A bit of sex in the mess just to spice things up a bit

What and be totally unrealistic? Remember the lace curtains and the lock on the door to the WAAF wing and a queen bee every bit as officious as a hospital matron - after all that was why Christopher Plumber and BEagle's heart throb (heart? :)) used an hotel.

lets give the enemy a more human side whilst we are about it. Concentrate on the victims not the heroes,

Ah, you mean getting carried away in the flood, futilely grasping at the hanging branch of a tree as the tree is also swept away.

The staff car out pacing the flood.

The explosion blooming out at a gentle running pace to the enemy can keep just out of the fireball.

[Duchess_Driver]

Now that someones mentioned it...... Will we get to see that picture again....????? Go on... please!!!

[Red Line Entry]

We're making this for modern audiences remember. So the love interest will be between a pilot and his rear gunner.

[Carry0nLuggage]

RLE: Were you using the physical seperation of those two crew positions as a metaphor for the difficulties they had to overcome in their relationship or as a euphemism? I think we should be told.

[racedo]

We're making this for modern audiences remember. So the love interest will be between a pilot and his rear gunner.

Will Fry play one of these roles ?

Perhaps we should be told.............

[dead_pan]

I thought they had already re-made it for a younger audience?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSBtivbUs4

Note the duration of film (perfect for those young 'uns with the attention span of a goldfish), overt references to beer and football, no mention of the war...

[TURIN]

Whatever happened to Red Tails?

Playing to packed theatres in the States if you believe the hype.

The CGI clip I saw looked a bit improbable to be honest.

As for the Dambusters remake. Bring it on. As story telling goes, the original is marvelous, but let down with some dodgy special effects. Is it accurate? Only those who were there know. May they rest in peace. The fact that Upkeep is now declassified can only help a remake more enjoyable.
With Jackson and Fry involved I'm sure it will be a triumph.

[teeteringhead]

Ah, you mean getting carried away in the flood, futilely grasping at the hanging branch of a tree as the tree is also swept away.
... could use some outtakes from Titanic, and just CGI the tree in .....

[Tankertrashnav]

If they use de Caprio and he drowns again it will be worth watching just for that!

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

.... de Caprio and he drowns again ....
DiCaprio drowned? Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! :{

[Dengue_Dude]

but let down with some dodgy special effects

Was that a spelling error . . . should that have been 'doggy' sfx?

[Milo Minderbinder]

doggy sfx??????

You get locked up for that don't you?

[cazatou]

I recall the headlines in the UK Papers when Richard Todd walked out of the American Premier of the "Dam Busters" because the American Distributors had grafted B 17's onto the attack Formations.

[Dengue_Dude]

I must admit to being so cynical these days - everything is suborned to attracting the mighty dollar:

Honesty
Integrity
Accuracy
Honour

Why should this film be any different ? Who captured the code books and Enigma machine from the scuttling U-Boat - oh, that would be the Yanks. I even think that took place before the USA were even IN the war. ACTUALLY INCORRECT, BUT EITHER WAY IT WAS Royal Navy.

Probably designed to be marketed to so many Americans that can't even identify Europe on a map, let alone UK and Germany.

Not a dig at the Yanks, just a dig that those attributes above are SO negotiable. THAT's how naive I am.

[Willard Whyte]

We should count ourselves lucky that the original purchaser of the rights to the movie dropped them in 2004.

http://static.nme.com/images/gallery/MelGibson02PA151110.jpg

[PPRuNe Pop]

A few years ago I read the book 'Ultra' about the Enigma machine - Churchills name for it. It was an invention by a Polish scientist early in the middle years after WW1

I recall that the machine came into - IIRC correctly - French hands very early on it was passed to us and we had it LONG before the machine was taken from the U-Boat.

In any case there is an anomaly here and O B Jones book was very detailed.

If I have got it wrong I will, no doubt, be told but O B Jones was an enigmatic man himself and his book was brilliant - the whole story of Bletchley Park and the maths genius Alun Turing.

Having said I have looked up a few relevant details and this link may help prove the point about the U-Boat.

Deception - Ultra and Enigma (http://cghs.dadeschools.net/normandy/deception/ultra_enigma.htm)

[Wensleydale]

I recall that the machine came into - IIRC correctly - French hands very early
on it was passed to us and we had it LONG before the machine was taken from the
U-Boat.

Simple explanation. Yes, Ultra had been broken before the U-boat capture - however, Bletchley had been unable to break the German Navy codes: the Kriegsmarine's enigma had an extra wheel (four rather than the standard enigma's three). The capture of the U-boat's code books led to the discovery of the naval enigma settings for the next few months allowing the Allies to finally decode the naval code.

The RAF Digby Heritage Centre holds an example of a naval enigman machine should anyone wish to see one.

[Argonautical]

Talked to a Bletchley park guide last Saturday, and he gave a bit more info about the U-boat. Seems the two guys aboard were about to leave the sinking boat when they noticed a 4 rotor Enigma bolted to a desk in the captain's cabin. They were determined to take this as well, so hunted for a spanner and were unbolting the the thing when the boat went down.

However the documents they had previously passed up to the guy who stayed on the conning tower, were immeasurably helpful in braking the latest code.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

A machine also on display at the Birkenhead Port Museum, U.K. As part of the U-234
Display. Located at the ferry across the Mersey terminal.
:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

PP, I believe you meant RD Jones (aka Four-fee Jones) Most Secret.

According to Winterbotham, a Pole was working on the coding machine in 1938 in east Germany. His security clearance was revoked and he returned to Poland and was subsequently smuggled out by the Polish Secret Service and set up in Paris with the help of the Deuxieme Bureau. He made a wooden mockup of the machine on which he had been working.

From the mockup we were able to identify it as an enigma and a new one was obtained with the help of the Polish Secret Service.

[aviate1138]

PN said "PP, I believe you meant RD Jones (aka Four-fee Jones) Most Secret."

Pedant that I am it's actually RV Jones and he wore two watches, one on each wrist.

Curious about the 'Four Fees' ?

[Pontius Navigator]

Aviate, RV it is.

As rector of Aberdeen University (I think) he had other jobs in addition to the one on TV, BBC?, and was this known as 4-fee.

Unless I misrecall having misread and misunderstood and it was 'for fee'.

[airborne_artist]

RV Jones was a Professor at Aberdeen, never Rector.

I used to see him from time to time in the early 80s when I worked with one of his daughters.

[brokenlink]

Thats funny, took my eldest to see it in July. Lots of CGI and some unbelievable flying (sure a P-51 cannot do a back flip and not all B-17 wings fall of when you hit the outboard engine with cannon fire). But the storyline was at least factual and based on the efforts of some very brave men.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Thanks guys. Of course R V Jones. I sit corrected.

PPP

[retrosgone]

Prof RV Jones was still lecturing when I had my first year physics classes at Aberdeen in 1974/75. Later, in about 1982? when I was on 360 Squadron at Wyton, he came to the Sqn for the day when we "re-created" the famous flight over Spalding during which the German Knickebein beam navigation signal was finally located. Hundreds of commemorative booklets had been produced, and he and I spent quite a while signing them (I was the humble pilot of the Canberra T17 used for the live radio hook-up, though the AEO did all the talking).

As senior Scientific advisor to Churchill, the then relatively young Jones had first hand experience and input into some incredible scientific efforts and achievements.

At Aberdeen he was latterly known as "ol twin fees" for managing to appear on both ITV and BBC programmes in the same period.

[Lima Juliet]

I had the honour to handle a working 4 rotor enigma machine at a certain establishment in Gloucestershire. It was far more absorbing looking at this and hearing the story of HMS BULLDOG and U-110 than some rubbish Hollybollox movie on a similar subject.

If I recall correctly, U-110's machine was recovered and the boat stayed afloat for a while with a boarding party battening down the hatches. She was being towed to Iceland when the Admiralty told the BULLDOG's skipper to let her sink, in case the Germans realised we had the machine, cyphers and codes. That may have been where the alleged 2 hands were lost - but I somehow doubt that story, as I was lead to believe it was a controlled scuppering.

Happy to be proven otherwise...

LJ

PS. A quick bit of googling reveals that 2 sailors were lost trying to get the Enigma out of U-559 about a year after U-110's four rotor Enigma had already been captured and used. The officer and seaman received George Crosses, whilst the surviving member got the George Medal. I guess it was also a "double bluff" to the Germans that we still didn't have an Enigma and were risking lives to get one!

[teeteringhead]

There's a good/fun/fascinating/amusing app for iPhone/iPad/iPod touch that simulates a 3 rotor Enigma machine - called Mininigma.

Apologies Mods if this is seen as advertising - I have no connection with the author.

It's only 30 bob and beats playing Angry Birds on the tube ......


.......must .... get ....... out .......... more .........:8

[LowObservable]

"Four-fee Jones" must have been a reference to "Four-D Jones" an Express cartoon strip about a time-travelling cowboy.