Seniority - is it time to get rid of it? [Archive]

LHLisa

27th Mar 2012, 23:05

Hi. I would like to ask the members here how they feel about the seniority system within the tech crew ranks. I am cabin crew, and many of us feel that the system basically stinks, having had no movement for close to ten years, while the top 30% have a great life - we suffer with no end in sight. It affects the trips we can go on, the destinations we visit, the days we have (don't have more to the point) at home, whether we can sleep onboard the aircraft in our rest time - seniors always take the better breaks. It affects our fatigue levels, our stress levels, junior fa usually end up doing the galley (back injuries) and the duty free (major stress), bullying can occur, it also affects our pay. It affects our days off, holidays, long service leave, time with partners and kids. Lack of control in the work enviroment has been shown to be a determinent of ill health in the workplace by mulitiple studies. Lack of sleep is known to cause diabetes, depression, stress, and much more. And that is just one small aspect of seniority. Not to mention muscular skeletal injury due to constantly doing the economy galley on a 747. Our union is not very helpful on this issue, telling us that crew want it. Does anyone here reading this know how we go about changing the system based on the significant OHS issues of health involved here, as it is not just a union issue, it is a workcover issue also? It also seems downright discriminatory to me a lot of the time, encouraging bullying at times. Bullying is illegal, but.... Thankyou

ejectx3

27th Mar 2012, 23:19

I'm starting to think its a concept well past it's use by date for pilots.

For me it means nothing as shorthaul has rotating seniority for bidding. It prevents me from changing airlines without sliding back to year zero.

It's basically a cage around us when there's no movement going on.

I know the arguments for it but right now they seem quite weak.

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 00:11

Are you unionised? If so, don't blame the airline, blame the union - in essence, blame yourself.

The airline only cares how much they spend on crew in total, the distribution of that money amongst individuals does not affect their profitability.

Who runs the unions, senior attendants? The ones who live the good life?

You and your fellow "junior" (after 10 years!?) attendants should have a good hard look at the facts of the situation and decide if it is time to take your own action, possibly forming a new union that isn't corrupted by the ones at the top assigning themselves all the dough.

Sounds like the same situation as the food-stamp collection new airline pilots in the US...

Jabawocky

28th Mar 2012, 01:05

Talking to a B767 Captain on deadheading sector the other day, and he made the comment that they can't hog all the Honolulu flights and are limited to one every two months now.

The idea is share it around with the younger ones.

Seniority has its place, but when it comes to the bidding wars for destinations, I do think that some sensible limits be used, and a bit of fareness in the camp for the better working environment for all crews.

Just a thought...........go make it happen, you might be surprised that everyone benefits in some way, employer included through better staff morale.

Don't whing about it, work through management and your union for a positive change.

Now of course if you worked for VA, you could drop a quick call into the Borg, or write to him and get a reply. ;)

One last point though, when you do this make sure your proposition is well planned out taking into account all affected groups and facets of the business. Prepare a list of por's and con's. Make a sound business case.

All the best with it :ok:

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 01:15

And another thing (inspired by Jabawocky's comment):

My sister works at KLM, about the same time as you spent with yours now. She never complained about not being able to pick routes.

Their system, as far as I can tell, is the same for everyone. If don't put in a request and take the package of flights assigned to you, you accumulate points. When you put in a request for a package, the one with the most points gets it and points are deducted.

So with a holiday coming up, she does a few three-sectors-a-day Europe weeks as assigned, then puts in for the "fly to KL, spend 4 days on the beach, fly home and get 6 days off" so she ads another week to her holiday. Almost guaranteed to get it.

She's been doing this since the day she was hired.

So yeah: there is another way and it is up to YOU to change it, the senior crew that calls the shots in the union have no benefit from making that change.

my oleo is extended

28th Mar 2012, 01:47

I am cabin crew, and many of us feel that the system basically stinks, having had no movement for close to ten years, while the top 30% have a great life - we suffer with no end in sight.
Thats aviation for you. Mates rates, nepotism, 'old school' and rorting. Get used to it as it will never change. Perhaps it is time for a career change?
Suffering? Hardly. Spend a week in the Ethiopian desert and you will discover 'suffering'. The male attendants seem to be doing ok.Toughen up princess.

It affects the trips we can go on, the destinations we visit, the days we have (don't have more to the point) at home, whether we can sleep onboard the aircraft in our rest time - seniors always take the better breaks. It affects our fatigue levels, our stress levels, junior fa usually end up doing the galley (back injuries) and the duty free (major stress), bullying can occur, it also affects our pay. It affects our days off, holidays, long service leave, time with partners and kids. Lack of control in the work enviroment has been shown to be a determinent of ill health in the workplace by mulitiple studies. Lack of sleep is known to cause diabetes, depression, stress, and much more. And that is just one small aspect of seniority. Not to mention muscular skeletal injury
due to constantly doing the economy galley on a 747. Again, that is aviation. You are better off working at Woolworths Monday-Friday, 0800-1600 by the sound of it? Shift work in aviation always causes the very things you mention? Again, the male attendants tend to cope much better. Maybe it is a strength thing, both mentally and physically? What are you seeking - $80k per year to work Mon-Fri? Bizzare! You must be Gen Y who is now in your late 20's to early 30. Toughen up princess.

Does anyone here reading this know how we go about changing the system based on the significant OHS issues of health involved here, as it is not just a union issue, it is a workcover issue also?
You will never change the system. Get used to it, it is now your lot in life.
I am one of the older school aviators who has done the hard yards and now enjoys a more 'relaxed' work ethic at the expense of the younger, newer aviators. I for one am happy with the system. It is amazing how newbies don't like it how others are more privledged! 10 years you say? Thats a Newbie! And thats nothing, after the next 7-10 years you will start to enjoy the benefits of this crooked system. Hang in there, not too long to go!!

It also seems downright discriminatory to me a lot of the time, encouraging bullying at times. Bullying is illegal, but.... Thankyou
Indeed it is. But it is part of the sytem. Illegal - maybe, but it is accepted. Life goes on and the bills get paid. Just work hard, do as your told and you will be fine. Male attendants tend to speak out or slug it out when bullying occurs, so maybe it is more of an issue with females, who are the weaker sex? I am not sure. Anyway, life is good for me. Toughen up princess.

Aerozepplin

28th Mar 2012, 02:08

I wish I was better at telling when people online are joking or not...

IsDon

28th Mar 2012, 02:20

Anyway, life is good for me. Toughen up princess.

Says it all really.

I'm alright Jack.

From the pilot perspective, most of these fossils benefitted in the past from a mandatory retirement age which created movement. Now they can fly until they die in the seat.

Now in a shrinking airline we are facing the very real possibility of forced redundancies among the junior guys while the fossils continue flying way past their use by dates.

While the company is expanding you could argue that everyone will be senior one day. Presently this argument is frankly rubbish.

LHLisa

28th Mar 2012, 05:05

Gee, no one has called me a princess in ages, its almost flattering! Amost. Thanks for the input and ideas, I realise a lot of junior tech crew suffer almost as much as cabin crew. I am considering taking it to a higher level, as in the Govt employment minister, work cover ombudsman etc. The company blames the union, and the union blame us, saying we want it. But we don't have an individual choice to leave the union and leave seniority. I have been studying part time for 6 years and am about to change to part time flying so that I can have a semblance of a work life balance, and continue studying as well. But I am lucky in that I can go part time, a lot of crew don't have that choice and will work every weekend till they leave the company. It should not be like that. its extremely discriminatory. Thanks again for the comments. And just to let you know all the cabin crew pretty much support the tech crew and the
position they are in currently. This thread was moved, and I am not sure why, don't really understand how this forum works.

I did bring this matter up at a union meeting in Melbourne 2 weeks ago, I had a little diplomatic speech prepared and all. I was the most junior crew member in the room by far. They listened, people agreed that its not fair, but as far as it actually changing - as if - as someone said the union is run by senior crew. My next step is to write a report/submission and hand it to management. I am sure that will go down like a lead balloon.

kellykelpie

28th Mar 2012, 05:17

Your thread was moved to make way for another thread posted by someone that joined Pprune before you did. That doesn't mean that you are unimportant, just that those that joined before you are entitled to have their posts displayed as a higher priority, regardless of content.:O

LHLisa

28th Mar 2012, 05:29

How ironic, another example of seniority! Regarding our union and seniority, in 2007 our union issued a very angry newsletter criticising an FA member for approaching management and asking that a fatigue management study by done on the impact of flying on cabin crew. Our union was furious that a crew member did something that in their words basically "could undermine the foundations of seniority and roster building". Its hard not to feel very alone on this important life and I believe health issue.

havick

28th Mar 2012, 05:29

Did you not read your EBA / workplace employment conditions prior to signing on the dotted line? :ugh:

Do I agree with seniority? No.. But it doesn't change the fact you didn't read the fine print just like all the cadets from various airlines that are now apparently complaining at T&C's after the fact.

rmcdonal

28th Mar 2012, 05:40

But we don't have an individual choice to leave the union
Really? Compulsory Unionism?

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 05:46

But we don't have an individual choice to leave the union
I can't think of anything stopping anyone from forming another union and with enough support, go to the airline, start negotiations and, if necessary, take industrial action.

The huge discrepancies in pay and conditions between junior and senior crew is retarded. Yes, earn less and work harder while you are still new at it, just like in any industry. But there should be a time limit on those lesser conditions, not a condition of someone in front of you giving up their seat.

It will be a hard fight, though. If you just ask for more with no reduction for the current senior crew, the company won't like it as it requires them to pay more overall. If you suggest taking from the senior ones, the current union (run by those seniors) will do *anything* to stop you and others joining your cause.

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 05:47

Really? Compulsory Unionism?
You missed the part where she said: "and leave [the] seniority [system]", as in: make an individual agreement with the airline as opposed to the union-dicated EBA.

LHLisa

28th Mar 2012, 06:36

Thankyou Baswell. Thats what I meant. Saying seniority is just the way it is is not good enough. Sure I signed up expecting to move up the ranks, just like all the tech crew, but now ,no movement and none to come in the future for cabin crew or qf tech crew it seems .

In the past passengers and crew smoked on board, alcohol was not served responsibly, female crew were fired when they got married, and if you put on weight you were sacked. Passengers were also allowed in the flight deck........ just because something has been a certain way for a long time does not mean it is how it should be in the future.

gnomie

28th Mar 2012, 07:52

I do not wish to get into the argument of good times versus the bad times ( or merits ) of the seniority system. I have been part of the system for far longer than I care to mention, at times it has frustrated the hell out of me, and at times it has given my family and I great comfort.

For tech crew the primary role of the seniority system is to:-

1. Provide the pilot with an opportunity to qualify for a command or promotion
2. In times of redundancies provide the pilot body with an orderly system of redundancy and consequent orderly system of rehiring.
NB. There are many other issues which seniority systems cover, each system is different however these are the two core issues underlying seniority.

The seniority list is owned by the union, in your case the FAAA! Not the company.

If you wish to change the way your seniority system works you need to get involved at the union level, garner support from fellow F/As and follow due process. Running off to an ombudsman is not going to cut it.

DUXNUTZ

28th Mar 2012, 08:02

Holy cr@p, good advice on pprune!

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 08:27

Gnomie, in an industry where you are a cog in the machine, I agree seniority is a good way to decide who is eligible for promotion.

But it sounds to me that in Lisa's case there is the situation where people are doing the same job at the same level, but with different pay and conditions.

Is that the case, Lisa?

DEFCON4

28th Mar 2012, 09:20

Then everyone is happy?
Wrong
Married people with kids will be unhappy
Those in a relationship and want to work together will be unhappy.
There is no such thing as a perfect work allocation system.
Adapt ...you have a great job that pays well.The rest is fog

Anthill

28th Mar 2012, 09:42

Seniority is a two edged sword. What you people in QF LH are subjected to is its worst manifestation. Senior people will always respond withe the "stuff you jack, I'm alright" mentality that has tainted the culture of the industry for long enough.

By all means, go to the Ombudsman. Submit Fatigue reports and explain any arduous duties. Get together with some junior FAs and elect some representation. This later point could be difficult as the 'senior' people are often the ones who assess you and could be out to get you on your next check (same goes for pilots :suspect:).

A fair way for you to be allocated flying would be for you to recieve a rotating 'duty allocation number' every month-where you get increasing seniority each roster period until you fall off the top and start at the bottom again.

As for Pilots, although Seniority gives the illusion of stability, it provides the opposite. Seniority worked in a stable, regulated industry (although it still disadvantaged high-performing individuals against those who were more datally senior). In an unregulated industry, seniority locks in Pilots to an employer and prohibits them from leaving for a more lucrative position at the same rank. It prevents experienced Pilots from obtaining employment at a rank that is suited to their experience. Without portability of our qualifications and experience, how can we be paid a true market rate?

I have been opposed to the concept of Seniority since the mid-1980s when the company I worked for decided to order B1900s. Holding the Seniority number of '2' in the company, I was to train on the first type as a Captain. I had 2300 hrs on piston engined unpressurised single crew aircraft, about 1400 hrs on twins. We had 2 guys (seniority number 13 & 14) who had 10,000+, C&T on ME, multi-crew turbine aircraft(CASA 212s, Do212, Nomads, king airs etc//) who were to be overlooked for the type. Ridiculous? Sure was.

Seniority also lowers the Terms and Conditions under which Pilots are employed. Without portability of our labour (to equivalent or higher rank and better conditions), employers need not offer more than the minimum that they can get away with. In the end, Seniority is a mechanism that regulates the supply side of the labour market in a way the is not to our advantage. Given that the demand for Pilots has exploded in the last 10 years, why has our salaries gone down? Seniority is supported and maintained by those who tend to hold rank in the company and the union. These are invariably those who are "senior". Remember the axiom of "F#$% you jack.."? The hypocracy is that many of these guys often say "It's the future for the young blokes that we worry about.." Oh, really :hmm:

Seniority assumes that all Pilots are created equal, which is clearlr not the case. In any other profession, we want the best most experienced person to work for us. Would you accept the most datally senior surgeon for you daughter's brain operation? The most datally senior Barrister to defend your son in a murder trial? No, we would want THE BEST, MOST EXPERIENCED person for the job to be on the case. Why should it different for Pilots?

Promotion under datal seniority may preclude the best available pilot from getting the next promotion (unless they also happen to be the most senior). Obviously, promotion may also be awarded to the most unsuitable person in the Pilot body. The result is that we cannot ensure a professional standard in our industry that is evolving in a positive way. A mediocre Captain becomes a mediocre example for his inexperienced co-pilots- and an incredible source of frustration for the experienced, less datally senior ones!

In the current dynamic, deregulated industry, the concept of Seniority has done its day. It has a negative impact on our renumeration and opportunities. It ensures that mediocrity becomes the norm and it is manifestly unfair to experience, well qualified Pilots who have been retrenched from other companies. Seniority is an Ass.

coarsepitch

28th Mar 2012, 09:54

:D Great post. One might think that this is the precise reason why seniority systems have not taken off in most other industries. Of course, one might then question the effect of having a merit-based promotion and remuneration system, and whether such a system might open up the possibility of favouritism and nepotism. Does it? Well, speaking as someone who spent a significant amount of time in a corporate industry prior to entering aviation, anecdotally there's certainly a lot of cases of people of equal skill and experience earning different salaries, being given inequal opportunities and so on. But by the same token, you can't fault the ability to move between organisations without committing career suicide (and indeed, using the ability to move between organisations as leverage to gain better opportunities or remuneration for oneself). The grass is always greener, I suppose...

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 10:35

Then everyone is happy?
Wrong
Married people with kids will be unhappy
Those in a relationship and want to work together will be unhappy.
Show does being married and having kids give you greater rights choosing your roster? Reminds me of the Swiss (the old one) girl working in catering I met in the mid 90's. She had worked the last 4 Christmases. Why? Because she wasn't married. Seems only fair, right?

The happy medium of everyone being able to choose rosters regularly (but not all the time) that KLM cabin crew employs seems to keep everyone I know there happy.

And at the very least you can look your colleagues in the eye and not resent their better deal which they did nothing special for to earn.

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 10:46

Too right, Anthill. Especially when it comes to being CLEARLY more qualified for a promotion as in your B1900 example. (Though more hours doesn't necessarily mean smarter, a better learner and problem solver. I know in my industry writing more lines of code only gets you so far too. Doesn't mean you get to the point of being smart enough to create Google just because you write a lot of code...)

The hardest bit comes when you and your mate out of the same intake are moving up. You know you are smarter, and people around you know it. Of course he can fly an airplane safely even though he sometimes may hesitate a little longer before making a decision. But when the **** really hits the fan, who knows what he might do? Everyone knows YOU will be a solid performer.

But how can you prove that with numbers? How do you quantify that? What if, after seeing many in his class get promotions but he keeps being passed over and he takes it to court? Can you prove there is a good reason for not promoting him? Saying "we have a bad feeling" won't satisfy a judge.

I am sure without the seniority system, cases like this would happen all the time. It's not right, but what can you do?

For promotions, it's almost damned if you do, damned if you don't.

DEFCON4

28th Mar 2012, 11:31

LG indicates to everyone who will listen that seniority is evil
The bid system is also evil.
Ask a Baron what they think of seniority and then ask a junior 744 Captain what they think.
Squirrel Caging or rotating seniority is a good proposition.
The 767 guys are rational and reasonable in sofar as they share HNLs.
As far as CC are concerned most were happy pre 1988.Allocated rosters meant everyone got a share of eveything

neville_nobody

28th Mar 2012, 12:20

A fully deregulated non seniority labour market in Australia would result in a decrease in captains salaries as every expat/military/foreign national with a work visa will be applying to get a walk up command.

It will be awesome if you are a australian airline or want to get a job overseas as I would imagine it would cause alot of resignations at foreign airlines and the australian airlines will get a magic pudding of instant captains with 15000+ experience. Not so good if you've just battled your way through GA and the regionals and a jet command slot was on the horizon.

Capn Bloggs

28th Mar 2012, 12:43

Why isn't this is the Trolly Dolly section?

jet.jackson

28th Mar 2012, 12:51

In the old farts section.
Seniority is not an issue restricted to trolley dollies.
There are many commercial pilots who aren't happy with it either.Are you a Barron Bloggsy?

simsalabim

28th Mar 2012, 17:13

Seniority - is it time to get rid of it?

The last result at FAAA poll (about 18 months ago ?) on this very subject was a resounding vote of 83% in favour of retaining the current system.

So there is your answer.

lilflyboy262...2

28th Mar 2012, 18:27

Anthill, you raise a valid point, but then there is the flip side.

You have been busting your ass for 15 years with the company to get to the left hand seat of your dream machine. You have put up with the highs and the lows of the company, lay-offs and being called back etc etc.
They then hire someone who has a few thousand more hours than you, and they get bumped into the left hand seat ahead of you and you have to wait another 5 years.

Seniority rewards loyalty. Is that such a bad thing?

Again, the argument with hours. This argument has been thrown backwards and forwards through multiple different arguments. Someone has been doing 10,000hrs of instructing, meat bombing and banner towing, and decides to take the airline route. You have 5,000hrs of operational experience with the company. Relative experience is the key, not total experience.

As for the F/A's. I don't really see how you can move up the seniority ranks without time served. Why should someone who has been through the above mentioned unfortunate circumstances, have to be given the same terms and conditions as a newbie?

Date of Join Seniority makes sense over a ranking seniority. The ranking seniority is only there to keep the costs of crew down so you don't end up with a bunch of dinosaurs for crew.
That is something that should be bought up with your union.

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 21:33

The last result at FAAA poll (about 18 months ago ?) on this very subject was a resounding vote of 83% in favour of retaining the current system.
What were the alternative options proposed, if any?

If there wasn't, then of course people will vote for certainty, instead of uncertainty. Just saying'...

baswell

28th Mar 2012, 21:40

Why should someone who has been through the above mentioned unfortunate circumstances, have to be given the same terms and conditions as a newbie?
That is not the issue. The newbies don't move up UNTIL a more senior person leaves.

If you start in any other business (say, a trade) you will probably work harder and get paid less than your peers initially. But then, year after year, you move up in salary and conditions until after a few years you are on the same level as the people doing the same job at the same "rank" as you are. Without anybody else needing to quit.

That is the difference between a fair system and seniority.

LHLisa

28th Mar 2012, 21:50

For cabin crew we do have crew on differents rates and conditions , QAL and QCCA, not to mention an AKL base, domestic casuals, in different divisions also, a London Base.

I spoke to the union about this at a union meeting 2 weeks ago. 2 union officials were very empathetic and understanding of the problem but admitted they see no solution. The 3rd union official informed me that I was very lucky to have the choice of being about to go and work on the A380 and thereby work an extra 40 hours per roster, have 6 less sick days a year, and various other inferior conditions, but not have to work under seniority. Fantastic choice!! Our union instigated the QCCA crew agreement (QCCA work 40 hours per roster more, and earn less money), to protect senior crew. The union will not help me with this. I was hoping someone here might have an idea outside the square so to speak. I have been invited to meet with upper management to discuss this next roster. But again, as someone posted here managemen't does not care how the pay and work are distributed, so long as it is done.

Our problem is that the seniority systems makes a great life for the top 30%, who are also the most motivated to tell the union that seniority must stay and not ever change. The union officials are also senior crew. Can't anyone else here see that this is an OHS issue, not just about money in our pay packet, and should be treated as an OHS issue? I have been toldsome 2nd officers feel that seniority is difficult for them with no movement and no growth in the company

Lilflyboy mentioned something about not ending up with dinosaur crew. Has anyone seen our cabin crew.... ?

simsalabim

28th Mar 2012, 22:14

Discrimination based on ageism is on an equal footing with other areas of discrimination , put simply it is illegal.
LHlisa, the Age Discrimination Commissioners office is available to you ,raising awareness of age discrimination, educating the community about the impact of age discrimination and monitoring and advocating for the elimination of age discrimination across all areas of public life.I suggest you seek them out.

simsalabim

28th Mar 2012, 22:24

In regards the FAAA poll on seniority I believe the case for the YES and NO vote was very clearly explained to the membership.
A YES vote was accepting the current status quo , "warts and all" with a clear understanding that in an environment of no growth, everyone is frozen in the seniority ladder and that there is no possibility of improvement in roster quality until further growth in international flying (requiring employment) occurs.

A NO vote , would then have required the FAAA to conduct a subsequent detailed survey to ascertain what changes the membership would like.
I think the message from the voters was loud and clear.

goodonyamate

28th Mar 2012, 22:43

seniors always take the better breaks

seniority used to determine breaks???? Is that written anywhere in an agreement/manual?

If not, the next time someone tries to tell you they get the better break because they are 'senior', politely tell them to f*&k off. Unless its written (e.g. such as rostering/promotions) they haven't got a leg to stand on.

ranmar850

29th Mar 2012, 00:08

Sometimes I dislike my mining FIFO job, after working 30 years in an industry which saw me home almost every night. Constantly away from home (like longhaulers), short breaks home (9 on, 5 off) constant short haul travel, no time to actually get hands-on with GA as I used to, missing anniversaries, birthdays, social events. The boat is used only spasmodically, the motorbike(s) aren't being ridden.

And then I follow threads like this. Thank god I work in an industry where ability is rewarded, and, in a rapidly expanding industry, promotion is rapid. My rise over the last five years has been rapid, both in renumeration and responsibilitites attached. Looking at the EBA figures quoted for Skywest F100 captains, I'm on significantly more than the bloke that gets us to work and back safely, sometimes in difficult conditions on a runway that apparently only just meets the minima for F100-class operations. But he isn't doing anywhere near the hours I am either. I only have those life-enhancing toys because I am doing the job I am--previous to this, I had to sell all that stuff to financially survive. So I will just have to enjoy them on my eight weeks (in real terms) annual leave. I may not like having to commute to Perth to join the charter to site, and the last one I flew was delayed leaving Geraldton (Q400)by almost four hours. OK for me, I have been kept updated by Q via sms, and just delayed leaving home. But the lovely CC , who had been on duty all that time, was quite chatty with me, back in 19B; she had began in Melbourne that morning and it was something like 0200 Melbourne time for her by the time we were at destination. I really felt for her, and hope she had a decent break before resuming duty.

So, the point of all this ramble? I agree with you Lisa, old entrenched seniority systems are preserved by those in power, because, By God, " I had to do the time and work to get here, and no-one is taking that off me " Preservation of the status quo is their aim, and you will get nothing more than lip service to anything else. In fact, probably lucky to get that. I can here the rumblings up the back from here "..bloody SLF, piss off or at least have the decency to be a spectator only" And unions are part of that self-serving hierarchy, as it has been pointed out, don't expect any genuine help there. Another reason I stay away from unionised sites, and stay in rapidly expanding areas. The old last on first off mentality, the job for life, the purple circles--dinosaurs, all of them. And fierce when all that time-gained value is threatened. Steadily ossifying, and only helping themselves. And before anyone bothers to ask where I will be , on my individual agreement, when it all goes tits-up...don't bother. I will be in exactly the same boat as the unionised, because the unions can DO NOTHING. Except make a lot of noise and ask for a taxpayer handout.
Experience and ability do not necessarily equate with seniority. So, Lisa your choice; do the miles and rise through the system, or go somewhere they value actual input, rather than time-serving. Good luck.

simsalabim

29th Mar 2012, 00:31

Must have plenty of time on your hands . Why bother getting involved with aviation sites ? Aren't there mining industry forums? I smell a rat.

FlareHighLandLong

29th Mar 2012, 00:52

I am a supporter of the seniority system, but that doesn't have to be rigid. As a general rule, it makes your career more stable and predictable, and certainty is crucial for businesses and individuals alike.

The flip side is that I agree that the seniority system needs to be reasonably functional for ALL stakeholders. Junior crew need to be able to achieve a reasonable work/life balance, and employers should have the flex to train the most appropriate individuals for new positions (i.e. training a 64 yo 767 captain to fly airbuses for the first time to do 10 months service is clearly a waste of everyone's time and money - except for that one individual)

For me - seniority systems work when they are important, but not the ONLY thing that runs the HR system.

Oktas8

29th Mar 2012, 00:56

Anthill +1.
Ranmar +1.

Unions are good for preventing exploitation of the bottom-of-the-ladder exploited. I appreciated my union when I was in my first job - they got me a living wage as opposed to having to work for free or some other nonsense.

But since then, every advancement I've had, has been through my own ability and hard work. (Which I don't take credit for - good parents, quality education, supportive wife etc. Point is, the union gets zero credit.)

I think seniority does not reward loyalty. I think seniority rewards stability: the ability to stay in one job for a long time. The most senior pilots I know sound very disloyal to the employer - quite bitter in fact. My advice is: if you don't like the job, get another one! Oh but you can't, because of seniority...

ranmar850

29th Mar 2012, 01:17

(Quote)Must have plenty of time on your hands . Why bother getting involved with aviation sites ? Aren't there mining industry forums? I smell a rat. (unquote)
No rat here to be smelt, simsalabim, I enjoy browsing this forum. I don't live and breathe mining, their forums hold little attraction. As I mentioned obliquely, in a reference to GA, I am a PPL holder. Haven't flown for a few years, economics pushed me out of private hire. In fact, last logbook entry may be ICUS P-51D, treated myself in the late Bill Wylies' dual seat Mustang before it was sold :ok: If the closest private hire wasn't 160km's away, I'd be back doing it now. Just love flying, and am always intrigued by the industry. I know my place, I think, in a professional pilots form, and that is largely as a spectator. Although I very occasionally post the SLF viewpoint, if I think it is relevant. Did post one question in The Balcony, re QF Q400 ops in WA, nobody answered.:( If you look at my age shown on the message , I'm not exactly a young bloke resentful of those who have "earned" their seniority.. but I am very respectful of genuine experience. A bit of a quandary here, really--how do you tell the the experienced and vastly capable from the timeservers in a seniority based sytem?

Race Bannon

29th Mar 2012, 02:14

Many arduous patterns are done by the most junior and overtime this can lead to fatigue.If you are fatigued you don't go to work .Simple.If you are aware you are fatigued and cause an incident you will be held responsible.
Arduous patterns need to be changed.They will only be changed if enough individuals highlight the problem.
Seniority can be a bitch but its a lot better than the alternatives.

superdimona

29th Mar 2012, 03:19

Must have plenty of time on your hands . Why bother getting involved with aviation sites ? Aren't there mining industry forums? I smell a rat.

I'm not a professional pilot (used to fly recreationally but stopped recently due to the expense), but read here because I'm still interested in Aviation. I agree completely with ranmar850's post.

I'd like to think I'm bloody good at what I do, and the system where time spent counts more then ability & attitude is what made me discount a career in aviation.

LHLisa

1st Apr 2012, 23:46

I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts on this thread. As I said earlier I am going part time for 6 months, that will alleviate my personal issues with this matter somewhat, but the whole situation stinks. I like the "f*@k you" idea, when seniors take the better break. Can't wait to try that one out :E. I do support the union movement, but on this matter our union is failing a lot of us. The fatigue management system being used for cabin crew is a bit of a joke. If you use it more than 3 times you have to go and see a work nominated DAME. A collegue was made to see a work nominated DAME with dire consequences for the treatment of a workplace injury. The DAME stated there was no injury, and in fact my collegue had a very significant injury requiring many months off work. If you use more than one day "fatigue leave" you have to see the DAME (as in 2 days in a row). The form you fill in regarding fatigue also wants to know if you suffer from anxiety or depression, which some crew may not want to disclose to their employer, stopping many crew from using the fatigue leave. Thanks again everyone for their comments here.

LHLisa

5th Apr 2012, 01:53

Goodonyamate may be right. Seniors always hogging their preferred break and favourite work positions does not seem to be written in the Eba! I started a thread about this on the official cabin crew website. Crew have admitted to being too scared to speak up about how they feel about this issue. Management appear ambivilant , but it's one of the most viewed threads on the forum . I keep expecting it to be shut down but it's up to over 800 views. I am a social revolutionary :). Let's hope the power doesn't ruin me !

Capn Bloggs

5th Apr 2012, 02:10

I am a social revolutionary
Hmm. Not a "I'm just joined I want the lot!" type? I think it is entirely reasonable that the more senior you are, the better deal you get. Happens in other places.

LHLisa

5th Apr 2012, 02:14

I have worked for the co for 22 years , been crew for close to half to that. I know an unfair system when I live it for over a decade. Thank you

kellykelpie

5th Apr 2012, 09:20

Happens in other places.

Can you name a few?

Capn Bloggs

5th Apr 2012, 10:22

Teachers. On the bottom, into the bush. Longer in the job, better jobs. Do the time. Doctors...

my oleo is extended

5th Apr 2012, 12:43

I agree Bloggsy.
Also try bank managers, PILOTS, Police....Believe it or not there are some Maccas staff that are now senior managers and they took 20+ years to get there and started out as a 15 yr old flipping burgers!!

LHLisa, your complaint is folly. Moaning about other people's 'break times' and 'where they get to serve onboard the plane' is bollocks. If that is the worst life can offer you then the future for you isn't bright. Might be time to spend some time scouring the barron plains of Africa in search of drinking water, or ploughing some rice paddies in Vietnam where kids still get limbs blown off on a monthly basis from a f#cking war 40 years ago! Or what about working as an underpaid nurse in a ****ty Rusian hospital where babies and infants with mental retardation are chained, literally, to cots??

Bollocks bollocks bollocks

kellykelpie

5th Apr 2012, 19:29

Police, teachers and doctors (meaning Public Drs) - I should have said "name a few that are in private enterprise (like us)"....

Anthill

6th Apr 2012, 01:52

Oleo and Bloggs,

All of the occupations that you cite have portability within their profession.Most Pilots and some cabin crew do not. The analogy of Teachers, Police, Doctors is a false one.

An experienced, well qualified pilot must start their career again as the most junior pilot if they change companies. This is a fine arrangment for those who have been fortunate enough to gain a well paid position in a stable company early in their careers, such as at Qantas where Captains are still sitting pretty. Not so great if you get retrenched along the way a couple of times. Or you are a 'junior' Pilot at QF, with maybe 15 years experience as a FO.

I have already shown in previous posts how Seniority degrades the Terms and Conditions of the industry as a whole. For your information, I had a position as a FO on a jet some years ago and took a Direct Enrty Command at another company (that didn't have Seniority or the experience base to promote internally) and got myself a $50,000 pay increase - an example of how promotion on merit can increase renumeration.

Perhaps you should speak to the Strategic/Air Australia pilots who must now go overseas if they want to retain their command positions. The result is that the pool of experience in the Australian airline industry is degraded.

I have been in this industry for 30+ years now. I have seen how companies with Seniority can manipulate the system to promote sons/daughters/mates. Psalms ancient and modern....:sad: The argument that Seniority some how prevents nepotism or brown-nosing is just bleatings from the totally naive :rolleyes:

kalavo

6th Apr 2012, 02:08

Bit of a misnomer with teachers, police and doctors.

Yes a lot of junior teachers go remote to get the first job and spend a few years there getting experience. But I know more than a few that did relief teaching for one year in a capital city to prove themselves and the following year walked straight in to a full time position based on their performance.

Doctors do have different degrees of training starting off with their intern year, moving on to a RMO/SRMO position, registrar and once they've completed their exit exam become a fellow or consultant. However these qualifications are entirely portable and exam based (you cant get your consultancy until you've completed an exit exam, which at the end of the day is their equivalent of an ATPL). Trying to get in to one of the training programs can take time - much like it takes time to get in to an Airline. But once you're in and have the qualification, you can move between hospitals or private work.

Police, you'll find a number of states that recognise previous experience from interstate and even allow you to transfer annual leave, long service leave, etc.

Seniority protects risk averse people which isn't a negative trait in a pilot, but can have a negative impact on the industry. How many people fed up with conditions at particular airlines would go back to a flying school for a year or two to train the next generation if they knew they could walk back in to an airline job either with the previous company or a new company. I know a lot of people who'd prefer some stability in their life that somewhere like a flying school provides until the kids are a little older, but don't want to make the move because they lose seniority/date of joining and never get that upgrade to command. So the flying schools get stuck with G3's teaching G3's teaching G3's. How many med students do you see who are only taught by interns? There is a place for RMO's learning from Registrars, but there are Consultants available... how many _current_ airline pilots do you see available to students doing CPL training?

squarebear

7th Apr 2012, 22:50

[QUOTE]Perhaps you should speak to the Strategic/Air Australia pilots who must now go overseas if they want to retain their command positions/QUOTE]

So you suggest these guys should just walk into a command position with a company that may never have worked for, or like yourself have walked from to greener pastures, and take slots from those who have bided their time in the right seat.

Sounds like you are advocating a form of an Industry wide seniority system whilst disparaging a company one.

[QUOTE]The argument that Seniority some how prevents nepotism or brown-nosing is just bleatings from the totally naive/QUOTE]

No, not naive, just understand how nepotism or brown nosing will also be apparent (and more unregulated) in a system that does not have seniority.

Obviously an argument for direct entry command may exist when a company introduces new types, suffers a lack of experience due to expansion, or can't get applicants (basings etc), otherwise, to my way of thinking, it is just guys pinching jobs.

Anyway that's my view, ...which is from the left seat.

mxq2012

7th Apr 2012, 23:58

In an industry where by your skills are supposed to be equal to those in your rank/work group, i.e. Capt=Capt, FA=FA and so on, seniority has its' place, merit is too hard to measure. Then there is staff travel!

The thread intention was for rosters? The only reason why seniority works is because it means during a roster build a roster cannot be tampered with for whatever reason - or - if it has it can be audited applying the 'fairness' of seniority.

I understand that Q737 have rotational seniority, to me seems fair. I am cc l/h and I must say I like that we all have to do reserve.

If seniority was removed I would most certainly take a pay cut. The question I am asking, last EBA we took our $3000 sign on bonus - then gradually lost our LA's - short trips and long range pay. In keeping the status quo in the last EBA I have certainly taken a pay cut.

Is seniority worth keeping for sustainability. Me thinks not. Part 2 crew in l/h cc could easily break away and have a separate EBA. If they were smart, they'd make a deal to snare all flying that had long range pay and decent o/t. Then where would I be? Less pay, Q could then CR QAL l/h ....

For the sake of my future, maybe, seniority for the purpose of rosters should ...

Anthill

8th Apr 2012, 01:06

Squarebear, you make it sound all so easy to:

just walk into a command position..

Obviously there are perfectly sound reasons as to why a company would want to promote internally. Being a known quantity in the organisation, familiarity with the paperwork and the office politics for example. Obviously.

To "just walk into a command position" the reality is that these pilots would have built up experience and qualifications over a period of maybe 2 or 3 decades.

As for me taking commands from poeple who "have bided their time in the right seat", well Sunshine, I flew as a FO for various companies in every continent of the world save the polar regions for 16 years before I earned my command. The most senior FO in the company where I got a DEC had less than 1,000 hrs on jets. It seems reasonable that such pilots should "bide their time" a little longer.

As for

advocating a form of an Industry wide seniority system

where did that come from? I have not written that nor do I support such a proposal. The allocations to any safety sensitive position should be based on individual merit-merit which can include exposure to company operations.

If you imagine that I advocate a particular position, then that will remain a perspective that exists solely in your own imagination, nowhere else.

I do support the notion that Airline companies engage in pyschometric assessment of candidates, which would include exercises in logical deduction and clear thinking. :rolleyes:

Oakape

8th Apr 2012, 02:19

Squarebear,

Heaven forbid your company should ever go bankrupt & put you out of a job, but if it did, what would you do then? Go back to a second officer position in another airline? Do you have enough years left to do that, or are you early 50's? Can you afford to do that, with current family expenses?

Just wondering.

squarebear

8th Apr 2012, 03:42

Oakape,

Should my company go bankrupt and I find myself out of work, I will obviously look around, but I do not see any god given right that I expect to get a command in front of some guy who's seniority, experience and sim checks indicate that he is next in line for that command slot, no matter my experience. To do so is just pure arrogance.

Anthill, forgive me for thinking that you are advocating some sort of industry based seniority system, it was just your comment that the Strategic guys having to take there command experience overseas in order to retain their commands led me to believe you suggest that their decades of experience should entitle them to jump the queue here in Australia. IE: Your command is dependant on your experience. If that were to be the accepted case, there would be many overseas pilots coming home to DEC.

(BTW I happen to know a few of those guys, I am in awe of their experience but unfortunately you brought them up by way of example).

Whilst you have undoubtably a great wealth of knowledge, learnt in many parts of the world, I would suggest that a guy with the right amount of experience within the company, esp time with the SOP's, is also bring something to the table as well.

As I said I am not against DEC but for the reasons of new types, lack of experience due to expansion, or can't get applicants (basings etc).

Do you support 457 Visa's as a general rule as well?

I note your comment re pyschometric assessment of candidates, I advocate CRM as well as psychometric. Hopefully you don't call all who disagree such names as Sunshine etc. :ok:

LHLisa

8th Apr 2012, 22:53

This is not just about rosters. Lack of control in the workplace has been linked to coronary disease, muscular skeletal problems, fatigue, depression, anxiety and other health conditions. I agree that compared to starvation and being in a war zone this is a relatively minor issue. However, fairness and equality and inequity in any area of life is an important issue. Structural disadvantage is wrong.

A captain recently said he sees it as a safety issue as well. Domestic wise the most junior crew are often working up the front. The captain did not think that having the least experienced crew in that section a good thing.

flying-spike

8th Apr 2012, 23:36

Must have been a quiet night at the crew hotel. So are you saying that the "junior" flight attendants didn't meet the standards required to work at the front of the aircraft? Are you saying that the more "senior" crew should be working at the front?
Bugger, that sounds like a seniority system where the more junior personnel should be working up the back with the great unwashed while you as a more senior person apply your hard fought experience in business...Sounds like a seniority issue to me.:ugh:

baswell

9th Apr 2012, 00:13

entitle them to jump the queue here in Australia
What about the airline's entitlement to hire any one they please, like in any other industry?

I congratulate Anthill on his DEC; it's the perfect thing to do for both the expanding airline and after 15 years as FO, I am sure you are more than qualified for the job! Not to mention that I reckon you jumped the sinking ship in time. You may have some of your old captains as your junior FO before long! ;-)

Capn Bloggs

9th Apr 2012, 00:41

Lack of control in the workplace has been linked to coronary disease, muscular skeletal problems, fatigue, depression, anxiety and other health conditions.
Dunno what you're complaining about. Stay where you are and then sue when all of those afflictions strike you down.

Where are you on the seniority list in your outfit, Baswell? ;)

Oktas8

9th Apr 2012, 05:24

baswell

9th Apr 2012, 06:01

Where are you on the seniority list in your outfit, Baswell?
I am number 1, and so are Shagpile and SeaMoss. As the most senior members, we also run the union and in our EBA have negotiated completely flexible rosters for all senior personnel. As such, we have complete personal discretion in choosing which 16 hours we work in each day. :ok:

my oleo is extended

9th Apr 2012, 10:08

I enjoy my seniority and the privileges it brings. I worked hard for it and I don't intend on giving it up anytime soon. If LHLisa drops back to part-time then she should also drop further down the 'privileges level' also. Sorry Lisa but it's time to give it a rest, the system works very well for most of us. Besides, it is part of our culture. Jimmy Bowtie looked after Darth, then later Darth looked after Jimmy. Darth looked after Elaine, and in the near future Elaine will look after Darth. Its a basic systematic process based on mates rates, who you know and length of service. This flows down to Pilots, Engineers and Cabin Crew. It's perfect!
So at the end if the day Lisa you are an aviation waitress, just serve the food on either class, keep the ****ters clean, secure the cabin, do a demo and bring me my 'skinny flat white with 2 sugars' (no eye drops in the drink please) and all is dandy!
Cheers

porch monkey

9th Apr 2012, 11:32

Ah ****, here we go!:eek::E

superdimona

9th Apr 2012, 16:27

Imagine the disaster if every industry operated on seniority. Rather then merit, the people at the top get there by warming their seat longer.

You're a businessman - why bother working overtime to clinch that million-dollar deal, Fred next door started a day earlier so he'll get promoted sooner.

You're a scientist, and you think you have an amazing idea, but it will be a ton of extra work to try it? Screw it, you're moving up the ranks as soon as Joe retires, and putting in the hard yards won't change that.

You're a Mechanic with twenty years of experience at a Holden dealership, but they've announced they're in financial trouble and everyone's getting a paycut. The Ford dealership across the road is booming and needs extra help - but if you change jobs, you'll get the same wage as newly minted mechanic. Holden gets away with it because they have you by the balls and they know it.

If the seniority system actually helped conditions as a whole companes would be desperately trying to get rid of it. Instead they're exploiting a quirk of human nature - "I had to do it, so do you".

LHLisa

10th Apr 2012, 02:35

Remember the melbourne to launceston flight in may 2003? The crew was excellent, the csm was experienced , it was handled well. Do tech crew see my point in the safety aspect here? Tech crew should want crew who are experienced in working in all areas of the cabin. And yes we all carry eye drops at all times :)

The aviation waitresses on that Mel - Lst flight prob saved the tech crews lives that day, as well as everyone else's.

ranmar850

10th Apr 2012, 05:17

In all this, I think only one person has mentioned the difficulty of assessing competence or technical merit, if you're going to promote based on merit. I think this difficulty is the only valid reason for the seniority system, when every pilot is doing the same job in the same way for a long time. So by all means promote based on seniority if it is really too hard to objectively assess merit.

Which is pretty much what I said in my earlier post. Just how do you sort the impressively-experienced and competent from mere time servers in a seniority-based system? As pilots, if you are getting from a to b and back again, delivering a complete aircraft in accordance with all the regs and company policy, you are doing your job. Until the S**t really hits the fan one night with multiple sytem failures in IMC, you don't really know what he is worth? And more time in the right-hand seat probably equates with more ability to handle this. As an occupation, very different criteria to something which requires, say, fault finding or system analysis abilities, where downtime is BIG money, millions of dollars per hour. Someone who is known within an industry for his wide skills base and ability to get the exceptional done in a timely manner will walk into a job over the top of someone who may have been there longer, just doing the minimum to keep a job. And rightly so, don't you think? Or do you think that "walk-in" should be made to wait/denied the money he is really worth because old Joe has been here forever, always supported the union, and would be upset if the "walk-in" were paid more or put into a more senior position? Different scenarios.
Maybe everyone should go through some fiendishly difficult sim time on a regular basis and be rated? :E
I can see by some replies that there are those who love the system, now they are at the top of that particular pile, and will fight tooth and nail to retain it, mostly for their own benefit.
I shall now don my Cat 4 Arc Flash protection suit.:)

porch monkey

10th Apr 2012, 05:35

Fail to see the relevance of that flight Lisa. It would be great to have everyone experienced in all facets of the job, but where do you get that experience? Everyone has to start somewhere, you don't just suddenly become experienced. So it isn't possible to have experience all throughout the cabin as you imply. Anyhow, the person you are talking about, after the experience and his treatment at the hands of the company, took his skills over to the red team. Got paid more and is a highly respected CS these days. If you're so unhappy with your treatment where you are, then leave. Others have, and made a good fist of it, seniority or not.

squarebear

10th Apr 2012, 07:18

[QUOTEImagine the disaster if every industry operated on seniority. Rather then merit, the people at the top get there by warming their seat longer.
[/QUOTE]

Well, that is really quite a simplistic take on it all.

Seniority only gets you the chance to apply for the position. Seniority does not mean you will automatically be selected nor does it mean you will pass the training to the required standard.

In effect the industry IS merit based, at least with tech crew.

[QUOTE]What about the airline's entitlement to hire any one they please, like in any other industry?
/QUOTE]

Baswell

some of the points being made to this thread really have got to the point of just posturing, but for something that may have some meat jump over to the post on D&G Reporting Points at

http://http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/482227-skywest-va-employing-foreign-capts-atr-ops.html (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/482227-skywest-va-employing-foreign-capts-atr-ops.html)

I would imagine that there are probably some guys that might rightly
take a little exception to your view.

Anyway, good to see that there are guys out there that keep the company line.

Cheers

LHLisa

10th Apr 2012, 22:22

Porch Monkey the situation currently exists whereby senior cabin crew go to work and month after month only work their favorite position. They work at one particular door, week in, week out, year in, year. These are the very senior crew. If you are happy to have those crew not need to engage any of their mental capablities, and be on automatic pilot every time they get onboard an aircraft, then I guess thats your call.

However I think having crew who can react quickly in different environments might be a good thing should another crazy with 2 wooden stakes (or worse) come on board. Cramming the night before eps where safety equipment is located throughout the aircraft in order to pass an exam is not the same as knowing where the equipment is.

porch monkey

11th Apr 2012, 00:13

Think you missed my point. Reread the part that says "experience". Not all cabin crew have it. They have to acquire same. That takes time. Frankly, i and most others don't care that much about it, as long as you can do your assigned jobs, wherever that may be in the cabin. If you can't, or won't, then most captains i know ave no compuction at offloading you. Seen it done, several times now. You seem to think people are born with it. What you describe may occur at your workplace, don't presume it does at others.

Roger Greendeck

11th Apr 2012, 04:05

There are essentially two reason to keep the existing seniority system: how can you separate pilots all doing the same job and decide who is worthy of advancement any other way and to stop nepotism/ 'brown nosing'. (There is a third reason for those who are already at the senior end and that is to maintain their entitlements but that is rarely so blatantly put).

Firstly there are methods to assess people's capability other than datal seniority. Any system is open to abuse but there is no reason that reputable airline cannot accurately assess the performance of staff. The check and balance on this I will cover in a moment.

The second is nepotism/ 'brown nosing'. This can only flourish where the ability of staff to move is restricted.

Imagine for a moment if there was not automatic entitlements from datal seniority. Employers will have to compete to attract and keep staff. In the event you feel your employer is not being fair withs it's treatment of you, you can take your skills and leave. There will, of course, be times where you can't do this immediately but over time bad employers will not keep their staff.

When it comes to negotiating new agreements we have more to bargain with because experienced, high quality staff can leave and go to a job that has better terms and conditions.

We see this in regional and GA where captains can and do move to better paying jobs. A significant number of pilots recently moved from Qantas to Jetstar because they did not have to start at the bottom. I doubt many would have even gone for an interview if they had to start as a first year FO.

Whilst, as with any large change, there will be winners and losers in the long run the only people the current situation is hurting is us, not the companies. If we change en mass it will improve our position over time. The continuous erosion of our terms and conditions shown the current situation is not working.

LHLisa

13th Apr 2012, 00:59

I am appreciative of all the comments and points of view posted here. I did not know previously that the 767 pilots now share the Hawaii trips, or that 737 pilots have rotational seniority. I may not be able to change what seems to me to be an unfair system, but that does not mean that I should not have a go at it. I don't like exploiting my co-workers, which is what I feel like when I work with NZ crew who have no seniority, or the handful of crew who are junior to me, and I do believe that an ocean is made up of single drops of water. Anyway thanks again.

LHLisa

13th Apr 2012, 21:18

Someones post here also lead me to finding out that senior crew are abusing their power by almost always taking the better breaks, and by avoiding work positions they would prefer not to do. Our EBA does not cover breaks, and it clearly states that all crew should remain proficient in all work positions, and that Duty free should be done by all crew in economy, not just the junior suckers, and senior crew on reserve are not senior to any crew planned to operate on a flight . Funnily enough the union has been happy for these abuses of the EBA conditions to go on for a very very long time. The union told me it is the companies fault that these violations:ugh: of the EBA have been occurring for the past decade plus, saying the company has not developed a computer system to deal with it. However obviously if this matter was leading to breaches of the EBA disadvantaging senior crew the union would never have allowed it to go on for years and years. The terms hoodwinked, duped and shafted (but not in the good way) spring to mind.
I think the union do do a lot of good, and I definitely support the union movement. However on this issue I think the union is failing us.
Can I just add to those here that think seniority is great and are entrenched in what they know is an unfair prehistoric systemMen used to own their wives, divorce was illegal, and aboriginals were classed as animals. The times change . Stop being selfish and making the other guys in the flight deck like you slightly less .It's bad for CRM! Please don't hog all the best trips all the time at the very least. It's bad for morale.

LHLisa

20th Apr 2012, 00:38

Ok I know a lot of you are sick of me on my bandwagon about this topic. But, I just thought I would let you know - The alternative team "the integrity team" in our cabin crew election has apparently announced they will change from a seniority system to a fair share system. The election only has a week to go, so who knows what will happen. But I guess it shows a lot of people are passionate about change.

A tech crew member I sat next to paxing recently made me laugh when they told me about how when they started flying the senior tech crew wanted them to walk ahead of them through the terminal , scattering rose petals in front of their feet, while they carried their log books for them. Of course we all know thats an exaggeration but it made me laugh a lot, and I had been awake for 22 hours.

As a nation we are hopefully about to end the structural ineqality and discrimination stopping gay people from marrying. Hopefully the discrimination of seniority based cabin crew rostering will end soon to, or at the very least be vastly altered to be fairer for all.

porch monkey

20th Apr 2012, 07:13

Dear God woman, is there anything else you'd like to compare with your pet hate, which SEEMS to be seniority? So far you've included gays, the greens, labour government, liberal government, the EU carbon tax and other subjects in your rants about seniority, fairness and god knows what else. We get you don't like it. Did they have seniority when you joined the company? Thought so. If you're half as good as you seem to think you are, why don't you pack up and join the opposition, just like GK did. I joined a company that already had seniority. I considered it, and still went ahead. I have no complaints. As I have already pointed out, some seniority systems work fine. You simply shouldn't presume that everyone else believes what you do.

Jack Ranga

20th Apr 2012, 08:00

Gen y bro :ugh:

Ever heard the story about the Youngbull and the Oldbull, Lisa?

LHLisa

21st Apr 2012, 20:41

I don't presume anyone thinks the same way I do - ( well maybe 1.7 million Australians at the last election, but thats another story). But I think this is a relevant topic in our industry. No one is making you read this thread? Or are they testing you on it now at your sim days?:p

As I have said I am appreciative to everyone for the info they have shared here. I could just sit on my hands and complain about the unfairness of the system I have worked under for 10 years, or I could be proactive and try to change it.

If more people spoke out about fairness and equality then the world would be a fairer place. It think it is becoming more that fair and equal, slowly, with time. I am really pleased Porch Monkey and jack that you have read so much of what I have posted, as the sharing of our ideas is one of the major instigators of social and work place change.