BFTS JP Syllabus

[Maxibon]

Anyone got a copy of the old JP syllabius circa late 1980s they could send through?

Thanks

Max

[jayteeto]

Sortie 1: Hell Sortie 2: more hell Sortie 3: revision of hell ...................;)

[Hummingfrog]

The JP5A syllabus in the mid 70s was great fun - 100hrs learning to fly it then 60hrs of low level, formation, IF and night flying. On night flying only allowed to do 3 circuits then out to initials for another go - aim was to get JP flying as fast as possible from down wind to initials then max rate turn before full power return to break into the circuit really enjoyable:ok:

HF

[jpboy]

MFTS Consultancy?

[Courtney Mil]

If you find it, please share it.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I think I have a late 90s Tucano BFJT one if that'd be of any help?

[sangiovese.]

I still have my ticksheets (lord only knows why)

One well informed debrief point says:

Flapless......crap

[jayteeto]

As do I, hence reading back on 65 hours of torture......

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I cannot remember which hurt more - being told before the debrief that I had made at least 57 big mistakes in a one hour sortie, or realising after the debrief that my QFI was right.:{

[ShyTorque]

Jayteeto, maybe you had some of the same QFIs as I did. The instructional attitude of some of them was appalling.

One debrief (not mine, I hasten to add):

"By pressing the engine start button, Bloggs sets into motion a series of events over which he has little control".

[BOAC]

.and of course, the old chestnut

"Bloggs is totally incapable of undertaking two tasks at the same time, and since he needs to breathe................"

[spekesoftly]

"This student sets himself a very low standard, and consistently fails to achieve it"

[jayteeto]

My 5000 end of BFT report, line 1: 'Taylor is not a natural pilot'.

[Bill Macgillivray]

"This student is so dense that light bends around him".

[Oceanic815]

"Bloggs was so far behind the aircraft, if we had crashed he would have been unharmed!!!!"

[wiggy]

maybe you had some of the same QFIs as I did. The instructional attitude of some of them was appalling.


......best not name names then :uhoh:.......................


Funnily enough my F-4 OCU groundschool notes from 1980 are still on my office shelf, next to some more modern civvy stuff... but for some reason :E the JP Instructors guide haven't survived several house moves ( though I still have the "sequence" notes)......

Max, I may be able to work out the early sorties, ( E of C, S&L 1 etc) from my logbooks, but as for detailed syllabus - nope, sorry.

[Melchett01]

"I assume you aren't actually trying to kill us, in which case, would you mind awfully pointing the aircraft at the bloody runway rather than the fence at the end of it" Not my finest moment. He had a point, but as has already been suggested, some instructors really must have slept through the bits of the syllabus that dealt with how to get the most out of your students.

[Dan Winterland]

Wiggy - you were one of my QFIs!

[wiggy]

Oh heck Dan, my sincere apologies.................

[teeteringhead]

My 5000 end of BFT report, line 1: 'Taylor is not a natural pilot'. .. you may well say that jayteeto .........

........ I couldn't possibly comment! ;)

[ShyTorque]

But he's a survivor.... :ok:

[Maxibon]

No I'm not developing MSFT or some privatised guff scheme, I've been asked to give a local pres on my somewhat unorthodox mil career and I am trying to remember the 90 hours of heaven and hell from the late 80s at CF. Mainly hell obviously but I remember some good trips - mainly solo or with an excellent F4 mate with the initials JB; he taught me that flying could be enjoyable, unlike the c**k of a creamy who put me right off.

[Canadian Break]

It wasn't just creamies chap - I had one who was an ex 60 Sqn pilot - Flt cdr too - and believe me, a ride with the resident creamy (L G-B) was a walk in the park after a ride from hell with that bloke!
PS - I've got my "tick sheets" somewhere if all else fails PM me and I'll try to find them.

[thunderbird7]

I got a 5 for making tea after one trip...

[cazatou]

thunderbird 7

I take it you didn't use NAAFI teabags!!!

[Maxibon]

Canadian Break, the ex-60 Sqn chap's initials weren't JH by any chance? If so, I totally agree with you!

[cazatou]

As a QFI on the JP I would point out that I never instructed at a Basic FTS but I did spend over 4 years instructing on the School of Refresher Flying where the Students I flew with ranged in rank from Pilot Officer to Air Commodore.

There was no Manual which detailed the formal syllabus because all the Students were going to different aircraft and had a variety of backgrounds. We adapted the syllabus to meet the requirements of the Student. One of my last Students was the Air Commodore who was about to become the Commandant of CFS.

[Melchett01]

Serious question amongst the banter and sandbags - what it is about the military environment which produces absolute shocking instructors?

I can only think of 2 off the top of my head who were worth their salt: one knew his stuff inside out and could get it across in a way that encouraged the students, the other whilst not as technically brilliant looked out for the students and tried to bring them on as individuals and officers in general. As for the rest, there are some, dating back to IOT, that I frankly wouldn't pee on if they were on fire they were that bad - both as individuals and instructors.

Is it the alpha military environment that breads bad instructors, or is it / was it a case of bad individuals either 'escaping' to the training system before they were found out, or having been found out, being sent to the training system because there was no other option?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Good question; not sure.
My IOT flt cdr was a total w#nker (note to prospective cadets - If this happens to you, do not say this to his face in week 3 if you want an easy life), and another almost got 10 of us killed.
However, ALL my flying and ground instructors were at least good, and most excellent. This seems to be a rarity, so NUAS 81-84, 3Sqn Cranwell '85-86, 3 Sqn Valley '86 and 234 sqn '87 were, apparently the exception to prove the rule.
I did the AIC at Newton, and thought it was very well run. I think you need the QFIs to tell you what the problem was. I should think the Sqn Boss has a lot to do with it.

[Dan Winterland]

There was a deliberate and definate change in the style of instructing in the early 90s. My CFS course was the very first to receive some training in instructing psychology in an attempt to improve the pass rate. That famous scene from 'Fighter Pilot' was used as an example of how not to instruct - it was precisely that sort of thing they were trying to stamp out.

And on the FTS, there was no doubt there was an attitude change. This might have been a result of the new aircraft (Tucano) and the weeding out of a few of the old dinosaurs, but it was a positive improvemnet. For the student, he constant threats of being chopped had largely disappeared and there was a much more pleasnat attitude. And the more positive attitude improved the training environment and it was considered that standards and pass rates had improved.


As for my QFIs, I had the new creamie which was hell (one comment: "my twelve year old sister could do better than that!") and a sucession of fast jet aces who were often very quick to point out my many shortcomings. The one who got the best out of me was a Canberra pilot - but by that stage the damage had been done.


Interestingly, I didn't keep in touch with any of my instructors (except two who later became fellow QFIs). But I am still in touch with quite a number of my students.


Wiggy - I only did a couple of trips with you as you were on the other flight - but I enjoyed them (LL Nav!).

[Canadian Break]

Maxi - no, this guy's initials were ML. Without giving too much away I was at Linton around the same time that they filmed the infamous Fighter Pilot series, but on another Squadron. It was definitely as case of "if your face fits" and this one guy brought to an end something that I had worked towards for 5 years.:*

[teeteringhead]

Serious question amongst the banter and sandbags - what it is about the military environment which produces absolute shocking instructors?
... serious answer: and of course you mean "shocking fixed wing instructors." I know I'm biased as a QHI, but I'm forced to agree with you on QFIs - my dodgy one was an ex-Valiant co (dates me!), one of a number who were shunted to CFS when the mainspars cracked (see point 8 below).

So here goes - in 2 parts:

Good Points on CFS(H) and/or QHIs

1. No creamies! Importantly, all instruction could be related to front-line flying.
2. CFS(H) has a single course, whether the baby beefer is going to instruct on Squirrel basic or Chinook OCU; ergo, it teaches how to teach and not what to teach.
3. CFS(H) staff have some flying experience in the last 10 years outside Lincolnshire or the Vale of York!
4. Tri-Service environment has always been maintained - just like Upavon in 1912!

Not so Good Points on CFS (Fixed Wing) and/or QFIs

5. Creamies - with some notable exceptions! ;)
6. QFIs taught (mostly) on the aircraft on which they will instruct - discourages wider thinking.
7. Many CFS Staff seem to have been there since Pontius.
8. Not sure how it sits now, but in the past CFS used as "dumping ground" to ease manning. Eg - co-pilots not quite ready for Captaincy (or whose fleet breaks - see above) get sent to CFS to boost P1 hours.

Biased opinion - of course; but much truth.

Discuss.

[BEagle]

an ex 60 Sqn pilot

We had one of those at Heaven-in-Devon as a staff QFI on 63 Sqn. But a very nice chap. He'd been one of the last pilots to have flown Javelins with 60 Sqn in Singapore before later becoming an F-4 driver. But he hated the fact that his old squadron number had been transferred to the RAFG Pembroke squadron.....

Which, of course, we students never mentioned. Not once. Oooh No. Or rather, not often.... We would look him in the face and ask, with mock seriousness, "How did you manage to re-role from Pembrokes to Phantoms?"...:E

That Fighter Pilot JP clip was the result of the luvvies' request for something a bit more interesting for the unwashed genpub to see. It was complete fabrication, although there were some people around in those days whose 'ability to impart instruction' was woeful.

[exMudmover]

There seems to be a lot of banter here about lousy QFIs, particularly Creamies. As an ex-Creamie, I can understand this as I know that I for one was not a particularly good instructor. The main reason for this was my extreme frustration at being creamed off when I desperately wanted to get on to fighters and go overseas. (This was in the 60s, when Labour were planning to pull out of all the glamorous overseas locations). My error was coming top of my course at Basic and Advanced. The cruel lesson for me was – don’t try hard, or the bastards will screw you! Still – if you can’t take a joke you shouldn’t have joined.

After that I went to Chivenor to fly DF/GA Hunters and was appalled at the lack of professionalism of some of the PAIs. Quite a few of them made not the slightest effort to ‘instruct’ properly, expecting the student to get things right just from hearing the Phase Brief. On the ground their stock-in-trade consisted of constant humiliation of the students, (Particularly ex-Creamies), while their instructional patter during a demo pass might run to “S***t! I’m almost as spastic as you are”. On my Air-to-Air dual the PAI gave me so much hassle that I only fired the gun once. After a solo cine sortie I managed to teach myself the technique and achieved 45% average for the course on the flag, having had not a word of worthwhile airborne instruction from a PAI.

In my view people like that should have been 1020'd off the unit for deliberate dereliction of duty - for petulantly refusing to carry out the job they had been trained for.

Later on I discovered that a large part of the PAI course consisted of weapon sortie after weapon sortie (solo), just to build up the student PAI’s personal weapon skill, with not much time devoted to actual instructional practice. The resultant skill level allowed them to ‘lord it’ over their students.

Fortunately, not all PAIs were like that. Some could use correct instructional techniques and actually improve student standards.

[Molemot]

A brief word on the idea of continuity and consistency. I flew with 30 different instructors going through the JP course at Linton in 1971/72... all with different ideas and standards. The best instructor I had was the "creamie" I started out with...wish I could have flown with him all through the course.

[Hamish 123]

All my instructors at 7FTS were great.

Apart from the one that chopped me.

[wiggy]

That Fighter Pilot JP clip was the result of the luvvies' request for something a bit more interesting for the unwashed genpub to see. It was complete fabrication

Agreed.

I did my CFS JP course with John McCrea and his stories of the efforts the TV team went to to get "entertaining" footage were eye opening; the infamous Fighter Pilot scene (circuit detail I think) was the product of much editing but as I heard it that didn't stop the QFI involved having to explain himself and his Instructional Technique to various senior officers.......

Hi Dan W .. I'm still working my way through the logbooks - was St Athan involved?????

exMudmover..the only line of patter from QWI's I can remember was: "Sigh, I've shown you once, I'll show you how I did it again......"

[BEagle]

...the only line of patter from QWIs I can remember was...

QWI in cine room at Brawdy. Clackkity clackkity clack....clack....clack "Uh-huh...ride up...late pickle...wotcha get, then?"

Self: "DH"

QWI: "Bollocks". Then leaps forward with special-for-QWIs measuring jobber...."You can't have done"!

Self: "Well, that's what the RSO said!".

QWI: "Compensating errors. Doesn't count!"

:(

............................................................ .......

A few years later, BEagle is fortunate enough to be allowed another complete TWU, this time on the 'JP6' at Chivenor.

QWI: "BEagle, that kneepad bombing jobber thing you've made, can I have a copy, please?"

Self: "Certainly. As an ex-Vulcan co-pilot I'll happily share my knowledge with a mere fast jet QWI!"

QWI: "Cheeky sod!"

:ok:

The 'kneepad bombing jobber' was something I'd made so that you could obtain the right sight piccy and other settings directly from the RSO's wind velocity without hard sums. Plot it, read off the settings. Good enough to win me the Viking Trophy for best overall live weapons!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I remember 2 film debriefs at Brawdy

Uncle Ray, who never needed slo-mo or measuring sticks,
Ray: "speed a tad slow, over pitch, early pickle......70' at 6"
Me: "RSO said.....70' at 6"
Ray: "You don't listen to a word we tell you, do you?"

Or a new QWI (now a VSO) grabbing a very old (Spitfire, Kestrel, etc) QWI's SCT film as a demo.
Every run had at least 3 errors, generating a variety of error estimates. We then discovered he had 4 DHs.

[just another jocky]

Off topic I know, but you may be aware that a JP3A, privately-owned, PFL-d into Wyton on Wed with an engine fire? Out of N Weald, doing an air test. Unfortunately, according to one of the 2 pilots, it'll never fly again. :{

Need to go grab my 1st logbook and see if I ever flew her. I shan't put the reg no on here as I noticed they have taped over it since it landed. :confused:

[spoff]

Got one in the garage from QFI days late 80s....

'sharp as the leading edge of a fogbank' was a fine quote!

[Canadian Break]

Wiggy - it wasn't an entirely fictional. On one occasion I remember vividly the chap I referred to in an earlier post spent at leat half a trip hitting me over the bonedome with his gloves and decrying my every move as I was trying to learn to fly right hand circuits at Linton on Wednesdays.:mad:

[xray one]

At TWU during a LL SAP, after ballooning in a LL turn, the guy in the back who's normal SOP was to fly with his mike off - clicked the mike on and uttered the immortal words "i'm getting a ***king nose bleed up here" clicked off....

[cazatou]

C B

I trust you reported that through the Chain of Command.

[Pontius]

QWI: "Compensating errors. Doesn't count!"

That made me laugh, as I'd forgotten about that phrase. Somewhat surprising really as I was awarded the title of King Of The Compensating Errors. The results of this innate 'ability' didn't go down too well with either the QWIs or the Crabs on the Chivenor course. 'How did you manage to blag that then, Pontius?' 'Farked if I know. JLAR'

Bushy-topped tree! Bushy-topped tree! Ride-up, bunt, pickle :ok:

Edited to add: JP3s on Linton's 2 Sqn absolutely sucked, due to a complete knob of a Boss and a very laking-in-lustre Flt Cdr (ex-F4 driver who thought he was the dog's nuts but evidently wasn't). Fortunately 'jumped' squadrons, as the RN was paying, so managed to get onto 3 Sqn for the JP5. Chalk and cheese. Great Boss (ex-Canberra's I think) and 2 top instructors (surprisingly ex-Vulcans). Despite such a pedigree (;)) it was happy sqn and the results spoke for themselves. 2 Sqn obviously had a lasting effect on me; my mate offered me a 'go' in his JP3 and I told him he didn't have enough dosh to get me in the thing, let alone share petrol money with him. I just need him to buy a Hunter and I'll make it up to him :)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

There was a ruler, in a student's crewroom at Chiv I think, with all the random corrections used by QWIs on it

rad, rad and a tad, gnat's cock, smidge

and 2000 ft (for battle) marked in at least 5 places since every QWI's idea of it was different

Weaponeering was the Dark Arts in every sense

[Dan Winterland]

TLAR. Works every time!

[Canadian Break]

Caz - yes, to the CI (initials RC)) then the Stn Cdr who both "closed ranks" and ultimately to AVM Elliot Ness (? - sorry, its all a long time ago) when I went to Biggin Hill for reselection and was told by the said AVM that I wasn't chopped because I couldn't fly - but because my "face did not fit". Sad end to a long cherished dream - would have never made single seat fast jet but something with someone else to share the workload - probably and certainly multi or rotary. :{

[NigelOnDraft]

Off topic I know, but you may be aware that a JP3A, privately-owned, PFL-d into Wyton on Wed with an engine fire? Out of N Weald, doing an air test. Unfortunately, according to one of the 2 pilots, it'll never fly again. :{ Technically it is a JP3 - not A ;) And happier news (or not if you have a pathological hatred of the JP3 :eek: ) is that damage is not too bad and should fly again before too long...

NoD

[sycamore]

Nod, sad, I see no mention of pilots fighting for control as supersonic jet -Provost avoids jobcentre and filling station queues,a nearby monastry,nuns on a picnic,the `home of rest ` for ex-RAF Staff Officers,`pikeys caravan site,and the nearby skool....! must be slipping (not side-slipping))....

[Wwyvern]

I didn't fly an RAF JP, having trained on the Provost T1. I did fly civvy JPs, the MK 1, 3 and 5A, though, and never saw a syllabus..

I came across a photocopy of the "Instructors' Handbook for the Provost T1", if there is anything of interest in there.

As there is drift on to instructional techniques, as a student and later QFI, I learned that the instructor's technique differed in line with the student's needs. One of my PP instructors found that I needed "encouragement" to learn. He used to take the crowbar from the left side of the student's seat, hold it on his lap, and, when he deemed it necessary, would wap he on the left side of my bonedome. I had to explain the dents when I handed it back to stores.

As a Hunter student, the most memorable info I received from an air-to-air gunnery instructor was, "Hold the joystick like you hold your c**k." It seemed to work, as my end of course report awarded me "Above Average" in gunnery. I often wondered what that said about me.

As a Chipmunk instructor, I had a stude who, whenever turning left, would pull the nose up.
This was because, when he looked left, he automatically pulled back on the control stick. Despite pointing this out to him, he continued this error. To try to remind him, whenever we turned left, I would lean forward and strike him on the base of his neck with my extended fingers. This worked in the beginning, but he then learned that if he moved his head forward, I couldn't reach him. However, this had the effect of him pulling the stick back harder, as he pulled himself forward. We eventually got around that by my reeling him in by his pigtail and bashing his head on the coaming between the cockpits. We eventually compromised:- I'd stop physcally abusing him if he would fly level turns to the left. No, that technique was NOT taught at CFS. This stude went on to be something big in the CAA.

[BEagle]

...I would lean forward and strike him on the base of his neck...
We eventually compromised:- I'd stop physcally abusing him if he would fly level turns to the left

You actually admit to that? Anyone whose ability to impart instruction was so poor that he had resorted to physical abuse cannot, to my mind, have been much of a QFI.

Didn't you teach him how to select the correct attitude whilst rolling in to the turn?

[cazatou]

BEagle

I totally agree with your viewpoint!!

[Wwyvern]

Beagle and Caz.

Sorry to have trodden on your sensitive bits. Perhaps “strike” is too strong a word. “Poke” would do, perhaps. Only one student had to endure this unorthodox technique, and he WAS taught how to select the correct attitude. It just was that he was not very good at doing it. He got it eventually, and reached the end of his course satisfactorily.

You probably found that students are often quite different from each other, and respond to different techniques; some need to be coaxed, some spoken to firmly, others respond to jocularity. But I reckon that's granny and sucking eggs stuff.

However, in 3 years of UAS instructing, none of my students failed to pass on to the next phase of training. None requested an instructor change. I lost one only, and he went willingly as he had chronic air-sickness. My “nape of the neck” technique came in handy in his case. He could not wear an oxygen mask, used only for radio and R/T, as it made him gag. So he was permitted to use a throat mike. When we discovered that he was prone to airsickness, he was never able to unplug or disconnect his throat mike before throwing up. The sound which came over the intercom was not good, and in this case, a quick pinching motion of my fingers at the clip behind his neck was able to disconnect the mike.

[just another jocky]

Technically it is a JP3 - not A http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif And happier news (or not if you have a pathological hatred of the JP3 http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif ) is that damage is not too bad and should fly again before too long...

NoD

That's excellent news; would hate to see such a lovely old jet grounded. It was only the pilot's first impression I was quoting...he thought it not economically viable to repair considering they are pretty available on the open market.

I thought the tip tanks made it a 3A???

[cazatou]

Wwyvern

I would not describe our views in the way that you do. What you described was totally UNPROFESSIONAL and totally UNACCEPTABLE.

[ShyTorque]

One QFI at Linton in the late 70s was definitely a pressed man and seemed to resent flying with students. He seemed over-friendly on the ground but resorted to severe name calling and thumping on the arm if the student couldn't get something right at first attempt. He had to think again about his "instructional methods" when two students threatened him with some return violence. A buddy of mine almost came to blows with him in the circuit. After landing he was marched into the flight commander's office and he never flew with him again. The other student eventually got chopped.

I got this instructor on the rebound after a "reshuffle". After two trips with him it was obvious I wouldn't progress with him because I found myself getting frustrated and angry with him in the air. I went to my flight commander and told him I wanted an instructor change. The answer? He said: "Well someone's got to fly with him!"

I just shrugged my shoulders. I got my instructor change.

[charliegolf]

So that chip on your shoulder was an ACTUAL chipped bone then Shy?:ok:

CG





(for the no win no fee Ppruners, I'm kidding- don't bother asking him to sue!)

[Bill Macgillivray]

Some experiences may have seemed very hard from the student point of view at the time and I agree that there were some real ar*****le QFI's around in the early/late 60's, (and QWI's). I would suggest, however, that the majority of instructors did actually try to help their students and had a great feeling of achievment in seeing them pass out at the end of the course. I know that I did (and remember that there were good students and bad, and all the rest!!):ok:

[ShyTorque]

So that chip on your shoulder was an ACTUAL chipped bone then Shy?
CG

At least I'm equally balanced, :p

Bill, Having subsequently spent a number of years instructing elsewhere, I stick by my words. There were some good, but unfortunately also some poor QFIs at that location. I was a mediocre student at best, but survived the training in spite of the latter. The ethos of some seemed to be "chop early for Christmas, there's plenty more students where the last ones came from".

[teeteringhead]

And not just QFIs! To redress the balance, I can remember verbatim the entire debrief of one of my sorties on the Whirlwind at Valley - chasing drums around Holyhead harbour whilst in manual throttle. :eek:

I admit it wasn't very good at all and (fortunately!) helped guarantee that my future career was on SH! :ok:

After the silent walk in from the aircraft (never a good sign), QHI takes me into small debriefing cubicle - about the size of a Photo-booth. He: tall and thin. Me: well, neither.;)

QHI: "Well - it wasn't bad enough to chop you! ....... (dramatic pause) ...... it wasn't even quite bad enough to re-fly the trip ........... (further dramatic pause) .........but it was f:mad:in' awful!"

End of debrief - he then carried on to brief and authorise the solo trip (no manual throttle on solos!)

[Quietplease]

We were doing spinning in a JP4. The first action for spin recovery was to check the turn needle before applying opposite rudder (copes with the inverted spin case). On the fifth very good recovery when the student had yet again not done that, I leant over, and jabbing the T&S at every word said "Look at the f***ing turn needle" At this point the glass broke jamming the needle hard over. He never forgot again. Not an approved CFS IT method.

[ExAscoteer]

Surely the first action for spin recovery was to close the throttle? ;)

[ShyTorque]

Surely the first action for spin recovery was to close the throttle?

Or check the height.... :p

[Quietplease]

Don't you know how high you are?

[Quietplease]

Early spinning was done from a stall with the throttle closed. Only later would one spin by pulling hard into the buffet in a steep turn or loop when it could flick any way into a partial control spin.
Quite a few JPs were lost spinning.
Incidentally the same student was flying with another instructor when the solution to non recovery was found. They spun down from 25000 taking all the appropriate actions and were still spinning at 3000. As the instructor tried to get in a Mayday call to say the were ejecting it finally recovered. A/C was taken to Hunting who fitted a spin chute and had to use it on the first test flight. Problem was assymetric fuel in tips.

[ShyTorque]

Don't you know how high you are?

In a deliberately induced spin, yes. But in an inadvertantly entered spin, possibly not and possibly below safe minimum height for attempting a spin recovery, where aircraft abandonment might be the better (or only) option.

Which is why the first action was:

"Check Height"

Closely followed by: "Check Throttle closed".

I once got myself into an inadvertant prolonged spin as a JP3 student (in retrospect probably a flick into an inverted spin at full throttle), from a cocked up vertical aerobatic manoeuvre. This was followed by "some confusion" on my part because recovery from that hadn't been shown to me. I then further cocked things up by forgetting to centralise the rudder when the now erect spin stopped, so it spun the other way. I bust the abandonment height by quite a lot (the latter was 5,000 feet... I think, but it's been 35 years since). I do know I got down to well below 2,000 feet and only noticed / thought about it as I climbed back up through it.

I was told in my debrief that I should have pulled the Y&B handle at 5,000 feet. Last thing on my mind, TBH. :\

[CharlieJuliet]

Ref the commment in a previous post re the student not checking direction of spin before recovery. I remember this happening to me on a 30 hr check at Acklington in 63 - when the instructor banged the T&S the glass broke and the instrument flew apart, but I don't think I was also the student in a spin from 25k. Therefore this type of breakage must have happened more than once. Still it was difficult to carry out the check for direction when you had put it into the spin in the first place, and your left/right foot was extended in the direction of the spin. Eventually we (students) learnt to say the words but as an basic instructor today, I wonder how many students really look to see which way the aircraft is spinning before applying opposite rudder.