LEARJET 60 - flight and service experience

[nuficek]

Hi,
our company is looking for a suitable Biz Jet for private operation. We chosen Learjet 60 as the best candidate for our needs. Can anybody post any flight or service experience with this aircraft, please? (Like known issues and bugs, prices...etc.)

I'll be glad for any information.

[LGW Vulture]

Clearly the words, Residual Value were not included in your assessment. :uhoh:

[cldrvr]

Hope they chucked in a tarmacing machine, the 60 uses runway like it is going out of fashion. Every time I see one taxi by or park next to it, I am amazed by the shopping trolley wheels. It has a nice cabin, just too bad you can't really go anywhere, especially when it is raining.

They are cheap to buy, less then half of a comparable airframe, there is a reason for that. Like everything else in life, you get what you pay for.

Buyers of used 60's buy them on price and price alone, if you were looking for an allround halfway decent cabin sized aircraft, any digging into the 60 would quickly discount it as a choice.

If you or whoever is consulting you on the purchase process would look a bit deeper then the pretty pictures you find on the web, you would quickly find its shortcomings, run a mile and go shop for a decent airframe.

[nuficek]

If you have this opinion you must have any reson for that. So what type in this class can you recomended? We compared Citation VII and Hawker 800XP yet. But I would like still to know the reason for bad 60's review.

[B200Drvr]

Nuficek
If you looked at the Hawker 800XPi or 850XP it should have been a no brainer. The Lear 60 cannot compete apart from speed and altitude, everything else its trumped by the Hawker. The Hawker is a very good reliable aircraft, and if you know how to play tetris you can fit a fair amount of luggage in it.

[LGW Vulture]

Why was the G150 not considered? Gulfstream have mostly ironed out their issues with the old IAI overhang - so I would have thought this an obvious candidate.

[cldrvr]

You are obviously looking at price point, or else you wouldn't contemplate the 60 or VII. Forget about pretty pictures you find on the web, you first need to pinpoint your mission profile, then find the aircraft that suits that profile. You either pay for it now or pay for it later, earlier models are cheaper to buy, but will cost you more over time. Only a spreadsheet based on your hours and trips can answer that question for you.

Do you really need the cabin size of a VII? Could you get away with a smaller cabin, the pax sit down for most of the flight. You also need to consider the part of the world you are in, what are the maintenance providers like. There is a reason you don't see many 60's on AOC's in Europe, with the landing factors you just can't go anywhere, especially when it rains.

What kind of flights will you mainly perform? Business? Pleasure? Will they bring loads of kids or luggage. What sized airports will you use? What is your average trip length? What is your average loading, etc. All these questions can be put into a spreadsheet and the obvious airplane will come out at the bottom of it.

A G150 is a great airplane, but based on your choices so far will probably be outside of your budget.

You should seriously think about getting a professional to help you in the process, the cost of that will pay for itself many times over.

Just don't think that buying the biggest sized cabin for your budget is the way to go. A cheaper and older aircraft if you don't fly a lot of hours a year may well bet he way the go, if you plan on flying lots of hours and smaller sectors to smaller airports, then a newer smaller model may be the best choice. Only you can answer that question based on your requirements.

Keep in mind that as soon as the owners have their first aircraft, they will quickly change the mission profile and either use it a lot more for trips that you hadn't planned for, or if you get it wrong will quickly realise that they can't use it as they bought the worng airrcraft and are stuck with a lemon. Buying the right aircraft for current and future use is not as easy as it first seeems. Just make sure you buy one based on the numbers and not on cabin size and purchase price alone.

When one of my principals first went shopping for an airplane, he wanted a 5/550, once we ran the numbers it made a heck of a lot more sense to buy a 604 and charter a 550 for the occasional trips requiring one. We are now looking for a replacement and once again the 550 is coming up but the mission profile hasn't changed significantly to warrant one, so we probably end up with a 605 this time around. Our research and number crunching will give us the obvious choice to go for. Cabin comforts and size obviously play a minor part in that decision process.

Forget about getting the "most" airplane for your budget, get the right one based on your requirements.

[LGW Vulture]

A lot of sense spoken there cldrvr. I always say, its not about getting the cheapest aircraft, its about getting the right aircraft at the right price. Let that be the mantra.

[nuficek]

It makes sense of course. New owner requires big stand up cabin, full toilet, proper range and good variable hourly cost. The aircraft will be operated from Europe and mostly to the East but not a little part of flights will be in one hour range in Europe. So logicaly we looked for an aircraft in Moscow range. We are thinking about 2003 and newer aircrafts. In the beginning it will be mostly operated privately and later in AOC. Our goal is 400 to 600 hours per year. Learjet 60 meets all our expectations. G150 is better choice of course. But I really think that it's out of our budget. Sometimes we have to make a compromise. So that's the reason why I'm asking here for real experience. It's the best review.

[cldrvr]

On the face of it, without knowing all of the details, you have 3 obvious choices, the 60, an Excel or a 800XP. The 60 is the quicker of the 3, but also burns the most amount of fuel if you fly it hard, the Excel has less of a "ramp presence" then the other 2, but is a well proven airframe, especially in Europe and has good residual value and is easy to charter. The Hawker is the heaviest of the 3, cost a bit more to buy, but will carry a greater load on a longer distance. Per seat, the Hawker and 60 are similar in operating cost and the Hawker has better residual value so over time it may actually be the cheaper option. The cabin of the Hawker is the biggest of the 3 and flying 600 hours a year, may well be worth the investment. The only downside of the Hawker is the lack of luggage space, but the 60 isn't that much bigger. Dollar for dollar the Hawker based on 600 hours a year and 4 year ownership will be cheaper then the 60, and you don't have to wait for it to stop raining.....

The 60 does have brake issues and if you decide to put the aircraft on an AOC, contaminated runway data is atrocious, the XR got an extra disc and is a lot better but then you are in Hawker territory again.

You really need to punch all the numbers in a spreadsheet and see what comes out at the end. 400-600 hours a year is definitely the right amount of hours to be thinking about your own plane.

Where are you going to base it and what are the maintenance providers like? At least you are looking at roughly the right size of airframe for 600 hours a year and the operating area you are considering.

If you don't have the exact breakdowns for each type you are considering, get a report from Conklin and deDecker, well worth the money. IF you are serious about putting the aircraft on an AOC, call around to operators that curently use your chosen types and talk with all of them, with the prospect of getting an aircraft on an AOC, they will all bend over backwards and help you out. Also see if you can get a hold of all the AFM's somewhere to get your numbers right.

Lots of questions to answer.

[jetopa]

@ cldrvr:

You should seriously think about getting a professional to help you in the process, the cost of that will pay for itself many times over.


:D

... and make sure that she/he is independent of any airframer or operator!

[nuficek]

Thank you for your reply. We already have Conklin and deDecker but it doesn't say pilot and operator experience. Your advice is exactly what we missed in our puzzle. The aircraft will be operated from middle east Germany and as I said half and half in Europe range and to the East. So XLS is out due to its range. G150 would be good choice but I'm afraid it's out of our budget. Hawker is a little bit expensive for variable cost than L60 and G150. So in 600 hours per year it can cost a lot. There is no more choices I guess.

[elvis82]

I was flying a new LR60XR sn 305 (or so) in 2008 and we were almost instantly AOG! Burst tire, pressuarization problem, smoke in the cabin as consequence of installing some valve in the wing opposite as it should have been, ... I am 3 years out and the operation could improve, but double check with operators reliability of the aircraft!

[His dudeness]

Have a look at the Sovereign. Prices have dropped a lot.

Good range (2300nm with 200nm altn with headwinds) , very, very good runway performance ( T/O, 2nd segment & LDG), Climbs like a homesick angel, good speed (up to .80, mid thirties you´ll see 450-460KTAS), very quiet cabin, ramp appeal is good. Already chapter 4, which will be a factor in Europe soon.
Very big heated baggage compartment and compared to a Hawker you don´t need to haul a ton of TKS around if you´re on a longer trip in winter.

Fuel efficiency is not the strongest point of the Sov when you do the shorter trips...I guess thats not so different to the others mentioned. I do have limited experience with the III & VII, from a MX standpoint I would take them off the equation, they are expensive kites to operate.

[nuficek]

The Sovereign is too expensive. In this price range is better G150 I guess. Faster, longer range and cheaper for hourly variable cost.

[jetopa]

@ nuficek:

You read the shortcomings of the LJ60 but your budgetary constraints may limit your choices, as you said. So you might just end up with exact this airplane.

The good news for you may be, that there are numerous people in Germany who have quite a lot of experience in operating this airplane (not me!). And there are operators and maintenance facilities which can tell you a lot about it.

Are you on an AOC or do you intend to operate it yourself?

PM me, I'm sure I can send you a few names and numbers.

[His dudeness]

The Sovereign is too expensive

Fair enough. Not being a Cessna salesman I wonder have you thought about leasing one? Or another airplane? Lease it for a year, that could give you an idea how much aviation really costs over here (your profile says your based in Canada, have you been here/seen the costs? - we operate a lot into Russia, Ukraine, Kasachstan, Aserbaidjan etc. and fees around the airplane are a MAJOR point on the balance sheet.) I have made the calculations for my company and have nailed everything BUT these things (wasn´t told where the jet would go mainly, so...)

Apologies if you do know these things already, just wanted to point them out...

[epsum]

As a pilot of AOC operated LJ60s, many of the written shortcomings arent really issue in our type of operations (avg flight time per leg 2h, 600-800hrs / year).

Brakes: all of our lj60s (5 of them), the oldest is from 2004 have 3 disc brakes, which doing quite OK job.

Runways. Basically we dont operate less than 5000ft long rwys. Less than that, you must do some serious calculations and be very conservative for the contigency plans. (Usual factored LD are between 4000-5000ft). When raining or contaminated you could have end up to 7000ft required /factored length. No problem in Europe (its always some proper airport nearby).

When 60 is properly maintained, it does not have worse dispatch reliability than any competitor.

But. When flying in conqested airspace the freedom to choose levels 410/430 or if you are brave enough 450, then you can fly over weather or fly more direct routes.

One of our customers, who flies usually 1200nm legs (and occasional 1800nm ones) tried the Sov, G150 and CL300s and 605s decided to buy 60. In his words, best compromise for price(flight and maintenance wise) and size of cabin and range.

For pilots view - if you like to be in cold cabin in winter(external heater is required for warming up) and hot in summer(aircon not so effective, if temperatures are more than +30C) on ground only, some occasional snags(nosewheel steering, anti-skid, generators), and have good maintenance team for backup, its quite ok aircraft to have.

[nuficek]

I still think the Learjet 60 will be the best candidate for our needs and our budget. One more thing bothers me. I'm not sure if it's possible to fly Munich - Dubai non-stop (or similar origin destination). I guess not. Does anybody have experience with it? I think Hawker 800XP can fly it but it's pretty slow and more expensive than 60's.

[muntisk]

i Have flown both, and speed are same for both planes, LR60 less range, high app speeds, longer RNWY needs, quite useless APU(low heating and cooling) Bombardier products are more expensive comparing with Hawker from maintenance point of view. Bag compartment 3 times smaller on LR. With Hawker you can go with full fuel and full cabin with max range :ok: , on LR60 full cabin you can not take maximum fuel restricted by TO weight, so 1800Nm max with long range power. Moscow-Dubai illegal route for AOC.

[mutt]

You started off saying the aircraft had to fly European routes or maybe to Moscow...... Now you are talking about Dubai? So have you really assessed what the aircraft will be used for?

Btw, I ink that cldvrs sticky on how to select an aircraft should be made a sticky :)

Mutt

[nuficek]

You know how are things going. We just got a potential customer in Dubai. So we would like include all the aspects. Our basic needs stays the same - midsize jet with defineted budget. So if I understand Learjet doesn't make it legally and Hawker does, right?

[epsum]

VKO-DXB with 1/2 pax, light baggage, without fuel stop, help with winds and Moscow APP/CTR and DP procedure (UBBB) is legally doable in LJ60 even in AOC operations. Is it meaningful or comfortable - usually no. But it could legally done. MUC-DXB cannot be done, you need fuel stop.

[nuficek]

That's what I thought. :( And Hawker can probably make it, right?

[x933]

I'm pretty sure we've done ULLI OMDB AOC at some point (Caveat - I'm not in a position to check) which would make UUWW OMDB non stop doable. In any case we've done UKBB - OMDB non stop and the GC distance for UUWW OMDB is only 200km further.

Ditch the LR60 and appoint a decent company to go shopping for you. I wouldn't bother with the Lear 60. OK, so one day you have a tight schedule and the boss wants to go to London City. Easy for the Hawker, LR60...nope.

Or the wife wants to go to Cannes for the weekend. Nope, that'd be Nice and a Heli. In practice the baggage isn't that much of an issue (i've seen a week of baggage for a family of 6 dissapear into a Hawker and the only things left out were handbags and epherema associated with young kids) and the operating cost isn't that much more (if any) compared to what it buys you.

[donPablo]

What a nice thread :)

As a pilot of 60XR with 3 discs on both sides :) I also and fully agree with all that Epsum wrote - though I like my APU ;) but... I would not consider Hawker for few reasons, and the main is TKS - I've flown a lot on Cirrus SR22 with this liquid sh*** and I cannot imagine what it can be in a big jet and WHO (?) certified that... i also cannot imagine a sitution where i had to use a lot of it for departure from some cold place in Europe and then being placed in some holding before Vnukovo at some ****ty altitude where i need to have this stuff on for some really long time although asking the controller who don't care (they really don't) to put me in some less icing altitutde, and then commence an approach with almost empty tank of TKS and being given a go-around (it happens a lot of times there !)... to go again into freezing trap and finish without this tks ... Plus You can't buy it almost anywhere in Europe, You have to carry it, and this is a DGR (SAFA guys will ask), You carry a lot of it and it takes Your Hawker sized bagg compartment. I don't know which Hawker You consider to tell You about the range but MUC-DXB is a rather Sovereign/CL300 route.

Learjet 60 is a great rocket to fly for pilots, for 4-5 pax it is great in the cabin too. As Epsum said if well maintained by a guy who knows that switches, squat-switches, and micro-switches are the worst nightmare of this airplane and he needs to have a full stock of them, then this airplane doesn't brake any more than any other or even ... less. Really the only thing that was wrong during my 300 hrs experience were the switches, but still they did not ground the aircraft.
You don't put that much luggage but still - You can cope with normal size of normal people for even 7 days trip and put this 5 pax, load Yourself with fuel and the performance will let You fly away from the ground in the time no other midsize will give :) . The range consider comfortable up to 2200 NM with an altn, or 2000 NM plus an altn. The runway length is not an issue with Russia - they all have long runways and in the most of the Europe... sure there are some places where You can't go, but after some time You may start considering it as an advantage instead of again trying to fit in some grass strip sized runway beacuse Your boss told You to land there, and indeed the charts say it's ok.

[jetopa]

Flying regularly from either Moscow or anywhere in central Europe to the Emirates or back is not the right application for any LearJet. But, hey, you gotta start somewhere, don't you?

Nothing wrong with starting off with an airplane which is suitable for 75-80 % of your trips and then stepping up as time goes by. Better this way than the other way around.

Have you ever considered a late s/n Falcon 20 with TFE731s? They offer great value, excellent short field performance, speed and range. If I'm not mistaken, the ones equipped with the TFE731 will make 2,500 NM.

They must be cheap to buy, type rating courses are being done either in DFW or LBG, but there are not many of them around any longer, so finding experienced pilots and mechanics might be a challenge...

[lear60fellow]

The only problem with the falcon is that it will cost you double per flight hour, I have a couple of friends flying one from Moscow and the cost is around 4.000€/hr

[nuficek]

That's true. It is generally known that Falcons are expensive. It's higher level as well. How wrote jetopa we would like start somewhere, not in the "highest floor" :)

[maxphlyer]

Nuficek,

At the end of the day, it will always be a compromise between your budget and your operational requirements.

In the long run the Hawker will deliver the most bang for your buck. It might be somewhat higher in your initial cost, but reasonable operational costs and being a very reliable airplane when it comes to maintenance will make up for it.

Performance seems to be geared towards your type of operation, the cabin size is nice and very comfortable for you passengers. Baggage space is not great but sufficient.

Should you some day decide for an upgrade, the resale value will make up for the initial cost.

Max

[lear60fellow]

moving in the range of 3.0-4.0M$ is ok, the lost of value in the next years is not as much if you were buying a new 60 (13.0M$) where you will loose half of that in less than 5 years.

Also buying a Falcon 20 for 1.0M$ with high cost per hour is not good if you plan to fly 600hrs/year, we are talking almost 1.0M$ extra in costs every year compare to a 60 or Hawker, but if you fly 100hrs probaly is your aircraft.

As always depends what you need and what you plan. When these rich guys come and want to buy an aircraft always think on a G550 and normally end buying a Citation 1. Calculate which is their fortune and maximum 5% of the total is what they should expend buying an aircraft

[nuficek]

Thank you very much to the pilots who posted at this thread. Your experience and information were very interesting and useful. According to our requirements we finally choosed the Learjet 60 at the first round.

Hopefully these inforamtion posted here can be useful for somebody else.

[theaviator2005]

60 any day, the hawkers i come to know had NOTHING bud trouble all the time, ya maybe unlucky but 5 JUNK airplanes did it for me...

Haven flown then 800hrs Plus in the 60 and 60XR, see not u got a beautiful aircraft for both Pilots and Pax.

Sure the cabin is what? 1 inch lower inside but thats it..... Lear 60 Greatly outperforms the Hawker in any way... And no not right u surely can take the 60 into Cannes no reason to fly to Nice, Sure Monaco is an issue but so it is for the Hawker.

Apu same issue for all smaller biz-jet's some are lucky some are not, some will work some will not no matter what aircraft u take...

Flown 2 brand new 60XR from the factory, one never had an issue the other the APU failed over and over the first 2 month, but so it did on the hawkers!!!

Range!!! oh ya like that 200NM is gonna make it ir break it??? I'll bet u that with the performance of the 60, I am able to almost push the same numbers out of the 60 then the Hawker when it comes to distance as i am actually able at fl. 450 or Fl.470 when light enough to pull back my engines further then what the book say i can!!! done it several times...

Parts being more expensive then the hawker??? Not really anymore, check the books and see the difference, sure 4-5 years ago there was actually a bit of a difference but now no not really...

As a Pilot ya sure i didnt mind the hawker but i greatly prefer the 60 and not the 60XR, haven flown from Beijing yesterday down to Macau sitting at Fl450 above all the weather was great specially when we had some of the biggest thunderstorms i seen in a longggg time... Try that Hawker, that slow ass wont even get near Fl430.

Do i really care what u buy, HAHA NO :-) up to u but make sure the owners sit in the 60 or the hawker before they even agree to anything, met too many companies who buy a mid-sizes jet without even sitting in one, thinking its much bigger then the fact.

Buy what fits the budget, they the client likes to sit in and what u as a Pilot would enjoy the more, but also remember classic 60 right now about 3-3.5 mil USD. New XR about 10Mil Used 604 about 13mil. So ya if u want used, IT IS CHEAP if u want new... Hmm then think about it as it would be worth paying the 3 mil more for the 604 ;-)

[qualityjet]

LJ60=trouble maker... We were grounded a lot with LJ60. I'm glad we got rid of it... Good luck and have fun!

[nuficek]

Could you post why? May be you just had a bad one. Your comment says nothing if you can't explain it. Was it XR or old one?

[qualityjet]

Both. We had problems with anti skid, spoilers, anti-ice, nosewheel steering, tcas... Almost everything you can imagine!

[KennyG]

Hi Everyone, Hope this thread is still being looked at.

Very interesting views on the LJ 60, I have a lot of experience on the 35 (maintenance wise) and have found it to be a fairly reliable aircraft (given its age). Iwould have thought newer versions would at least carry on the legacy.

My company is looking at the 60 as a 35 replacement as it can be hardpointed.
Given this requirement and knowing you didn't have to care about how much fuel you use (ie cost) do you still think there is a beter alternative?

Also could anyone tell me if the maintenance schedule is similar as in Phase A, B, C, D checks etc

[Doodlebug]

It's been some years, but I remember one or two things about the 60:

A lot of issues with getting the APU going. Something to do with a fuel-atomiser, I was told?
Getting to the batteries if an APU is installed is tricky, in fact a lot of maintenance-access is tedious, which can slow you down during an AOG-troubleshooting.
Starter-gennies let go every so often.
Poor runway-numbers, as everybody has mentioned. Also you want to bear in mind that, whilst Russian runways are long, the surface is often very poor which makes for a jarring ride on those tiny wheels.
Moscow-Dubai is possible, we did it.
Wing is happiest at around 400, maybe slightly above.

Enjoy the rocket.

[Delta12]

And always remember, one plane is quickly no plane.

What if the boss really needs to get somewhere and the plane goes tech ?

Whats your Backup then ?

[chuck416]

I would like to resurrect this conversation within the context of the Lear60XR. My employer is interested in this type aircraft. I have no time in Lear jets. I “get” that it needs a long runway, brakes lack a lot to be desired, and a long landing roll. Got it. From what I gather, has a high TAS, / Mach #, and cruise altitude. Also a (relatively) large cabin. Sincere “thank you” to the brain trust. I appreciate the thoughts and reviews of users.

[Michael S]

So what is the question then?