Citation X

[Guptar]

Been a few days stuck in the crew roomdue to bad wx and the boys have discussed various topics from beer, women, sports, beer, ........beer. Well you get the drift.

The topic of the Citation X came up. So some questions generated as such.

Is it is squirrely as some people say on approach. Some describe it as a hot rod that can bite you. Can someone expand on that?

Is max reverse mandatory on landing, or are there charts for an idle reverse roll out. It also seems that the reversing buckets don't deploy till nose wheel touchdown...correct.

FL510 is listed as the max FL, is thatan achievable level, is there any point getting up that high, since the flight planning guide charts only go to FL490.

Does anyone know the longest leg ever done in a X, obviously with a tailwind.

680lbs of fuel is listed as the VFR fuel reserve. If you were landing right at that amount, and a go around was required, how much would 1 visual circuit consume. Figure on zero or very little paylod.

I could dig out most of the answers if I had a copy of the POH. Does anyone have a PDF version, preferably for the winglet version. Done want to spend several hundred + $ to get one from Cessna.

Cheers all.

[His dudeness]

Never ever flown one...

Is max reverse mandatory on landing, or are there charts for an idle reverse roll out. It also seems that the reversing buckets don't deploy till nose wheel touchdown...correct

As this is an FAR25 airplane, Reverse does NOT go into landing distances required tables. No idea if the 10 has tables WITH reverse, but I doubt it, knowing Cessna...

How do you get the idea it is mandatory to use full reverse?

[fleigle]

My son has quite a few hours on X's.
As I recall he said that the brakes are excellent and with full reverser buckets it is necessary to push the nose down otherwise it (the nose gear) will be off the ground again.
This caught him out on his first sim "landing" of the G-V, where you have to pull to hold the nose off.
I'll ask him about the other stuff when he gets back from vacation.
f

[FlyTCI]

I have about 400 hrs in the X.

It flies best at 135-140 knots on approach, especially when a bit on the heavy side. Below that it gets a bit squirly with less airflow over the wing and ailerons. Nothing too severe when slower, just more comfortable at higher speeds. Dipping the wing on touch down in a strong crosswind is more of a concern to me and most other X drivers. Ask the NetJets guys who were flying the thing when it was new. ;) They since have regeared most of the first airframes which required 68 degrees input for full aileron deflection, to the 34 degrees ailerons which later became standard. You only have about 18 inches wingtip ground clearance on rotation (12 degrees NU) due to the wing sweep.

Buckets will deploy without nose wheel on the ground, but as already mentioned nose needs to be firmly on the ground or you will pop a wheelie. Ask me how I know. :} Buckets are pretty fast, one second to fully deployed provided you have the mod/later airframe, otherwise I think it takes three seconds. The carbon breaks can be a bit touchy from airframe to airframe but do offer excellent braking capabilities. On longer runways there is really no need to go beyond idle reverse if noise is a concern, just as full reverse only will be enough if you are into brake saving mode. The shortest strip we do (part 135) is just shy of 5000' and , but that is under DAAP with the 80% rule.

I've only seen FL470 during a test flight, but if you really need to get low fuel burn that is definitely a usable level when light. Normally start at 400 or 410 if heavy, 430 possible if light and the right atmospheric conditions. Not many folks like being up at 490/510 for obvious reasons.

No idea on the longest leg ever flown, and no desire to beat it whatever it may be. The advertised 3000 nm "sales man" numbers is not something you do every day, at least not if you want to land with legal IFR reserves. Longest leg distance wise I've done is Zurich to Abu Dhab which was with a pretty good push from the winds. I believe it was 5=20 hrs. I recently did Cyprus to Shannon (~2300 nm) doing M.85 most of the flight, also 5+20 hrs. I've talked to guys who have stayed up well beyond 6 hours, with the power back obviously.

The airplane really doesn't like flying much below M.86. We normally go max cruise (speed is obviously why you fly on a X) if fuel is not an issue and start out at .88/89 at gross weight. You normally end up doing .91 to .92 a couple of hours into the flight.

Don't have the exact numbers in front of me but 680 pounds should get you around the pattern. Again, prefer not to be the test pilot in this case either. An alternate 15 minutes away at FL60 requires 700-800 pounds for the burn on the flightplan. Our company minimum fuel on landing (IFR under FARs) is 1700 lbs. Most guys prefer to see 2000 to 2500 on landing, or more depending on where in the world you are.

All in all I like flying the X but it may not be as versatile as some of the other super midsize jets out there.

Hope that helps.

[ITFC1]

I've done Cleveland to Luton Direct, 6.6 block

[Guptar]

Wow Cleveland to Luton is 3246nm. I gather with a hefty tailwind. was that a winglet version?

Is the flight planning guide as published by Cessna representative of what you will actually get? Obviously temps hotter than standard will detract from performance.

My bad, in my tired state in my original post I should have said Max revers was SOP rather than required.

Mach 92 cruise, oh my lord. The fuel flow at that speed from the FPG is horrific, unless you're an oil sheik.

So what do you mean that it doesnt like flying at .82. What are the manifestations of that?

[FlyTCI]

At slower cruise speeds with the throttles out of the detente it just wont hold the airspeed and constant throttle adjustment is required.

Now, if it wasn't for NetJets it wouldn't be so bad. :} NJA were not willing to wait another six months for the first deliveries which forced Cessna to skip the autothrottles, something which would have been great on this bird and will be a great addition to the TEN.

[cldrvr]

The next X, due next year if I am not mistaken is going to have A/T, and a 15" fuselage plug, better range and supposedly better speed, supposedly to be a Garmin bird. One of my principals briefly looked at it but quickly discounted it due to range, the new X is only going to get an extra 100Nm or so, so winter Westbound across the pond is not always possible non stop.


Edit:
Birefly looked at the Cessna website and it looks like the new bird is out already. Can't confirm if she now has A/T's though. according to Cessna: 250Nm better range and 5 minutes quicker to 450, 5knots increase in TAS

[mach92]

Flew it for 5 years. The three longest legs off the top of my head I did were:

PANC TEB (all night)
SAN SJU (great tail wind)
PHNL ABQ

Full reverse do not need. The key is getting the speed breaks out then it settles onto the runway. Brakes are good. If your on speed it's no big deal. Being below ref is when you get into a problem.

Highest level 50,400 over Memphis on a ferry leg TEB DAL.

Taxing it can be a problem. The wind "grows' 4 feet when you swing it around so never get close to fences or any other planes without a wing walker.

[nomorecatering]

Whats the minimum OAT for operations at hight alt. Couldnt find it in teh limitations section on smartcockpit.

[FlyTCI]

Honestly I can't remember ever seeing a min OAT temp, but there very possibly can be one that I have missed. The min fuel temp is -37C in the tanks and 4C min temp at the engine, if that helps.

[CaptainProp]

In the limitations section there's a graph showing min ambient temp of -54˚C from sea level to 20.000 feet, from 20.000 to 37.000 min temp decreases to -75˚C and this is absolute min ambient temp. Max temp at sea level is +54˚.

Below "Engine Operating Limits" this note is added:

During cold day starts, oil pressure may exceed 95 PSIG. The pressure will decrease as oil temperature increases. Engine speed should not be advanced above idle until oil pressure no longer exceeds 95 PSIG. Once the oil pressure is below 95 PSIG, engine speed can be advanced but should not exceed 40% N1 until the engine fuel temperature is within normal limits, ≥4°C.

Hope this helps.

CP