Do you need an AOC for animal transport

[jxc]

As the title says is an AOC needed if you are just transporting animals in a cessna caravan ? not with the animal handlers also would you need 2 pilots or just 1. operating in UK and Europe

cheers

[Flaymy]

Is the person or organisation operating the aircraft the same as the person or organisation wishing to move the animals, or is the operator going to charter out to move animals for others?

In the former case no, in the latter yes.

In either case you need permission from the State Veterinary Service if the operator is UK-based.

[Flaymy]

Just to add - if it is for charter then a Caravan may only be used day, VMC within gliding distance of land.

[cldrvr]

If you get paid to fly people/animals/boxes, for a third party you need an AOC, it don't matter what you chuck in the back, the CAA wants its cut.

On a seperate note, you will need approval from DEFRA also. Routes and transport companies « Defra (http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/travel/pets/routes/)

The real question is what if you fly birds, and they fly unhindered in the pax compartment, are you really carrying them? I guess as soon as they defecate you are again carrying something so you need a "sh!tty" AOC.....

At least we have a thread again where the vicious pro private and pro AOC can have a go at each other again on how much safer they each are......


Hat, coat, door.

[Flaymy]

That DEFRA is only cats, dogs and ferrets, for rabies. Other animals covered by rabies regulations need to be quarantined coming into the UK. All animals need (or did last time I carried any) SVS approval. This is really a formality it seems, so they can ban you if you are vivisecting them in flight.

[cldrvr]

Thanks for clarifying that, I have only ever carried pets, the only animals I have had occasionally in the back were SLF, that's for another thread.

So to sum it up, you need an AOC, you need either SVS or Defra approval and using a SE, you are dependent on the weather and time of day.

Not a business plan that has much chance of success.

[mad_jock]

your also opening yourself up for a huge amount of ball ache.

As soon as any tree hugger finds out that your transporting them all hell will let loose. You can be transporting animlas for the RSPCA and you will still get someone complaining.

There are more regulations to do with moving animals than there are moving people.

If they are getting transported for contraversial reasons. Ie lab rats and the like. Your in for a whole load of hassle.

[jxc]

So if my company buy the animals in say France load them in the back of caravan land in the UK and sell them to my customer then NO AOC ?
as Long as the pilot has a CPL IR would I be correct in saying they could fly night/IFR as single pilot ?

Madjock Who would even think of flying for Labs :E

[mad_jock]

There are a whole raft of regs about experimental animals.

You better plan for a different airport every night as well.

And when you say caravan do you mean a single engine turbine or a C406?

[jxc]

Single engine turbine.

Maybe a helicopter would be better and land on site ! (may be a bit to expensive)

Just out of curiosity are there many people supplying Labs by small aircraft into different airports by night ?

[Flaymy]

mad jock

You might get the campaigners, but he actual regs for transporting (small) animals are not a big problem at all.

[Pace]

Aircraft crashes after crocodile on board escapes and sparks panic - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/democraticrepublicofcongo/8078612/Aircraft-crashes-after-crocodile-on-board-escapes-and-sparks-panic.html)

We I suppose have to consider uninvited creatures? We all have picked up a wasp or fly who has buzzed around the cockpit enroute to wherever.

Spiders, snakes and even the above link which caused a crash.

No mention of fish? Can you carry the pet shark :)

I am sure flying the owner of a private jet also involves (subject to boundary crossing regs ) The family Poodle! or the owners Pet Bunny :E

Pace

[jxc]

That pet Bunny could well be a Bunny Boiler !

[flynowpaylater]

So if my company buy the animals in say France load them in the back of caravan land in the UK and sell them to my customer then NO AOC ?



Seems a logical loop hole, but that one was closed off in 1997. It's all about hire and reward. In escence, that business transaction is only activated by the animals being transported from A to B. So, whether internal business or not it's still hire and reward.

[CJ Driver]

Not so hasty, flynowpaylater. If jxc's employers are in the pet sales business, and choose to operate their own aircraft to transport their own inventory, then they do not need an AOC. It is no different to a company owning an aircraft to transport their own executives.

If however "Pets R Us" charters an aircraft from someone else to transport their inventory, then the supplier of the aircraft WILL need an AOC.

Flaymy was therefore right in the first response - if the company/person operating the aircraft and the company/person shifting the animals is the same, then no AOC is required.

[Pace]

and choose to operate their own aircraft to transport their own inventory, then they do not need an AOC. It is no different to a company owning an aircraft to transport their own executives.

Agreed!!! But to expand they can also transport executives from another company that they do business with in the course of their business as long as those people are not charged in any form.
That would also include inventory from another company they do business with ie samples in the course of the owning companies business as long as the products are not in the course of the other companies own business ie for sale on their exclusive behalf.

I have flown executives from large multinationals in the course of the owning companies business as well as their products (not pets :) for many years.
In simple terms if company A own an aircraft and are doing business with company B. They can fly company B to their production plant. Company B may want company A to create certain products and may bring similar products on the trip for company A to discuss in their negotiations, all legal 100%.

Pace

[jxc]

Thanks for the replies guys.

[Flaymy]

Note what I said - if the operator is the organisation wishing to move the animals then no AOC is required.

jxc has not been entirely clear in this, but it certainly looks like it is jxc's hypothetical customer that wishes that the animals be moved, and jxc is asking about an operator willing to buy them and so move them in compliance with the customer's wishes. As flynowpaylater implies this used to be a well-known loophole, but it is now closed, so that operator would require an AOC.

Pace - in the case you are describing the valuable consideration is independent of the flight. The customer would be willing to pay for the product without any flight being involved if he could be assured it was manufactured to specification. The flight is a convenient means of meeting at a suitable location for the manufacturer to assure the customer of this, it is not inherent in the product.

If I read it correctly jxc is looking to supply a product to a customer in one location that is currently in another location, and the only value added is in transport - therefore the valuable consideration (i.e. profit) to the hypothetical operator is for the transport, therefore that is a commercial air transport flight. If this is a retail sale, or a wholesale distribution network that needs to move stock for general sale in the normal run of its business, then that is a different matter.

The difference, I suspect, will come down to whether a price was agreed for the customer to buy off the operator before the operator bought the stock, which implies a flight for the customer not the operator, and who sourced the animals, arranged checks on their health and quality and negotiated the price at source. If the operator did all that and bought the stock before selling it then they would have a good case to be a wholesale or retail organisation simply moving their own stock. That is the case CJ driver is talking about.

Advice to jxc: ask the CAA, and be very specific (and truthful) about the business plan. If they have any doubts then get specialist legal advice.

If you fly illegal charters you will eventually be prosecuted. Initial fines are pathetically low, but they do rise if you fly illegally again so you are out of business at that point, hopefully stuck in the back end of nowhere with an aircraft SAFA inspectors will not let you fly. Then it makes it very, very hard to operate legally afterwards - the CAA will be very wary of you.

If you have an accident on an illegal charter (and it is surprising how many accident flights both private and commercial are illegal for some reason; paperwork may not help you fly, but lack of it seems to signal lack of safety culture) you will not be insured, and it will cost you a very large sum of money, usually life-changing, bankrupting amounts of money. You will also be arrested, charged with many offences, and I hope gaoled.

[jxc]

Cheers Flaymy
I am only at the start of an idea just wanted to try and sort out the bit in the middle

[flynowpaylater]

Sorry to be a pedant but I know for a fact that you would need an AOC for that activity. The bias being that the goods are being transported for the sole purpose of a commercial transaction. An example being the early days of Blue Islands in the CI’s. It actually started with the chap who owned the only supermarket on Alderney. He was flying his produce in from Bournemouth on his own BN2. As the only purpose of moving those goods was for sale at the end destination, it was deemed as a commercial flight, and as such, they applied for an AOC, and started the Bournemouth to Alderney scheduled service route. The rest is history.

The same logic applies to say Tesco’s, who operate a huge fleet of lorries carrying their own goods, but need an operating licence to do so, and are regulated in the same way as any other transport provider, such as Eddie Stobart who move 3rd party goods.

[Flaymy]

I stand corrected. Of course Eddie Stobart now owns Tesco's transport division, but the analogy is still sound, if out-of-date.

[Nigd3]

Ryanair and Easyjet seem to require an AOC.

[Pace]

The same logic applies to say Tesco’s, who operate a huge fleet of lorries carrying their own goods, but need an operating licence to do so, and are regulated in the same way as any other transport provider, such as Eddie Stobart who move 3rd party goods.

Flynowpaylater

It all sounds very confusing so the local bakery need an operating licence to move their bread to the retail outlet in a small van?
I am sure that what you say is right but would like to see the regs that so state.
So the private owner using his aircraft for business can move stuff around as long as its not being moved to the point of sale???

Pace

[jxc]

The little baker may need it but they can get a restricted operators licence which is simple to get you fill form in supply you have proof of i believe £5k (can be on credit card) to use to fix any issues with vehicle

[mad_jock]

The road transport industry is tied up in regulation tighter than a nuns chuff pace.

Anything over 7.5 tons needs to be on an operators license. They shafted all the huge arsed horsey types getting on for ten years ago and made them all get medicals for driving over 3.5 tons and over and made the old heaps of 7.5 horse boxes get up to standard.

There are zero dispensations for private work. Even if I borrowed an artic for the day I would still have to have a tacho in and comply with all the regulations as if I was shifting a commercial load.

And traffic commisioners take no prisoners at all. None of this pissing around the CAA do, they just pull the approval until the operator sorts there poo out. Any hint of folk taking the piss and they are like a Jack Russell with a chance of a shag or to murder something.

[mad_jock]

Also seems strange that there isn't any additional bollocks to do with lab rats etc getting transported in aircraft compared to any other animals.

I had to do a humane killing course and other such bollocks for getting the license to drive them about in a van. They needed way more enviromental conditions than normal criter transport. Which you certainly didn't need for moving 100's of pigeons about or for that matter taking 50 beasts to the slaughter house even though most drivers that do it regularly have a bolt gun onboard and a wire coat hanger.

Medical grade pigs were a nightmare, mind you food chain pigs were a pain in the arse at the best of times. Vet on the onload, vet at the off load and if you got a cold within 10 days of driving them the whole lot was quarantined.

[Flaymy]

That is bizarre. Until they get to a lab surely there is no difference between lab animals and pets or food.

[mad_jock]

Nah lab stuff, they are all known genetic stock and brought up in known conditions without exposure to the world at large so that that can't stuff up the experiments.

The animal welfare is very tight and there are ethics commitees who approve virtually everything that happens to them.

The only exposure I have had with "lab animals" for experiments was a dead pig from a butchers to use as a mount for testing stab proof vests and that was bad enough. We had to have a phycologist interview the folk that were stabbing it to make sure they wern't traumatised. I spent a summer moving the criters about in a van occassionally and they were looked after way better than the pet shop owners would do. And the researchers although understanably a bit aloof about them really had a sense of humour crisis about anything that could be deemed cruel or would stress the animal. Whether this was because of regulation, because a stressed animal screwed thier experiments or I would like to think because they were using them in an ethical manner for ligitimate reasons, I don't know.

And as for the food chain stuff its all tagged and has an audit trail right back to its herd of production. In theory if something comes up in 2-3 years time they can trace all the other beasts that its been in contact with in its life. The records are kept for a period after the vet puts thier stamp on it when its slaughtered.

From my limited experence the pets are the ones that have the least protection.

And primates lab animals are in a whole different league to the rats etc. I never had anything to do with them but saw the 16 pages of SOPS to do with thier transport.

Could all have changed though in the 18 years since I was summer jobbing with a HGV license. I can't see it having been relaxed though.