I have noticed a change for the worse in the way we AIRLINE PILOTS are treated both by passengers and airline managements. Something must be done before the profession we love becomes unbearable.
Time and again I am reminded that I am just a lowly driver and compared to taxi drivers. This is not on. Nobody recognizes a flying licence akin to a degree course like other professionals.
Pilots are rapidly moving down the food chain and bankers(thieves) and other not any smarter than us professionals are moving way up. The disparity is becoming huge and it's time to come together and demand better (at least double of our present SALARIES), because not only do we deserve it, I know of no better way of gaining respect.
Who will pay for it, you ask? The same passengers who willingly pay fuel surcharges will be made to pay for (our respected Airline Captains surcharge -for instance)
I am certain that I am not the only one on this planet who has similar feelings.

Let's get some ideas from the incredibly smart people on this platform and get this thing started.

A bit early - It's another two weeks until April 1st.

In my opinion, it's quite simple. Supply Vs. Demand. Too many of us in the pot for employers to give a damn and hence the price per packet is low and the treatment of each individual is poor. In the UK alone we are pumping upwards of a 2000 CPL holders per year with no where near that amount retiring.

Now, that might also be the case for other careers within the transportation section where the supply outstrips the demand but that's where we turn to regulation and industry lobbying....unfortunately the regulatory bodies are often in the hands of the airlines themselves who pay huge fees to be "regulated" and the lobbying/union groups are often headed up by expired old relics from a bygone era who are buddies of airline management in any case.

The solution I think is that we need to drag our cause into modernity because a lot of people have some very old views about what's going wrong.

Who will pay for it you ask bobdazzle?

The same folk who have been paying for it for the last 15 years or so: the pilots, or the parents of the pilots. :*

Take your complaint to your union: it's they who can do something about if their members want them to. The unions will do what the members ask or tell them to do. If you say nothing they will either do nothing or make up their own agenda.

Nobody recognizes a flying licence akin to a degree course like other professionals.

That's because a flying licence is patently not akin to a proper degree course, neither in terms of academic requirements nor time taken to obtain.

Nobody recognizes a flying licence akin to a degree course like other professionals.

That's because a flying licence is patently not akin to a proper degree course, neither in terms of academic requirements nor time taken to obtain.


Still you can find some academic institutions who provide a proper degree. I've graduated aviation academy with BSc. 4 years academic studies.

Perhaps a matter of perception?

Can't find it now, but someone on this site posted a link to a league table of highest paid earners in the UK. Pilots were 4th, behind company directors, upper government officials and medicine. Most interestingly, ahead of the demonic bankers!

And as for pilots licences being akin to a degree, oh purleeez! My friend is a orthopaedic surgeon. 37 years old and only just finished formal study which has been pretty relentless since leaving school. 18 months after my first solo I was flying a 737.

Finally, I find the public's perception of us to be very respectful. Remember that video when O Leary likened us to "overpaid minicab drivers"? I heard a gasp of disapproval from the audience.

It may not be what it used to be (what is?), but its still a very, very good job.

Can't find it now, but someone on this site posted a link to a league table of highest paid earners in the UK. Pilots were 4th

My friend is a orthopaedic surgeon. 37 years old and only just finished formal study which has been pretty relentless since leaving school.

And therein lies the rub.

Salaries for first officers compare favourably with just about every profession one can name. A newly qualified FO flying a medium jet earns considerably more than a junior doctor, or the majority of junior solicitors/barristers. Playing Devil's advocate, junior pilots are arguably overpaid.

FO salaries might be quite good, but take into account how much they are repaying (in many cases) for loans that covered their training then it all starts to look a bit thin.

That's because a flying licence is patently not akin to a proper degree course, neither in terms of academic requirements nor time taken to obtain.

Not when I went through Hamble Mr Smith. 18 months with 4 weeks leave there. Compare that to 3 years Uni with 2 months summer and 1 month easter and Christmas vacation each year.

Strong unions. That's how. Imagine the train or tube drivers putting up with "pay to drive" or repeated frisking every day of your career? No, me neither.

We need a stronger union.

Mr. Smith-Quite evidently you are not a pilot and so can’t be a judge as to what or how long it takes to get an AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOTS LICENCE (more on that in another post). The idea here is to create that awareness amongst people like yourself and others who think flying airplanes is similar to say driving taxis.Quite to the contrary- as a matter of fact. The jets that you often board are multi million dollar complex pieces of machinery operated by very intelligent, driven and PROUD people who take huge responsibilities just because of their love for flying.
Now compare that to the overpaid bankers (the likes of the guys from Goldman sachs, Citibank… to name a few). These guys come out of business schools after degree courses lasting three years or longer. If Mr. Warren Buffet is to be believed, his company Berkshire Hathaway does not employ a single biz school graduate- simply because Mr.Buffet believes that they teach nothing of great importance in these biz schools. These overpaid pompous guys come out with fancy degrees and a lot of complicated finance related mumbo jumbo (bulls…t) which helps them cheat the unsuspecting public. These guys take home hefty salaries and bonuses are are looked upon as geniuses of our society. My question is this: If they are so bright, then how come institutions (CITIBANK ….and many others which went bankrupt) which until 10 years ago were Trillion dollar economies by themselves ARE TODAY BANKRUPT and these super intelligent guys still get all the respect. Mr Warren Buffet was right. Their degrees are useless. These people are useless.
Now come back to those intelligent and driven men in their flying machines carrying Heads of States, Celebrities, sport personalities and those same worthless chaps from the various biz schools responsibly to their respective destinations- in return for peanuts. GROSSLY UNFAIR.
The idea is for the whole pilot community all around the world to come together to this discussion and demand what is their due.

18 months after my first solo I was flying a 737.

I soloed in 1976 I didn't get to touch the controls of a 737 until 1994, that's after sitting sideways for about 7 years as a Flight Engineer.

Prior to that it was 10 years of working my way up.

You may pooh pooh your ascension to the right seat. I feel like I've paid for mine.

The jets that you often board are multi million dollar complex pieces of machinery operated by very intelligent, driven and PROUD people who take huge responsibilities just because of their love for flying.

Not denying that at all.

As I stated in my post, I was merely playing Devil's advocate, and pointing out that for a job requiring few (if any) formal academic qualifications, the remuneration compares very favourably with professions requiring years of study.

Having completed a law degree, and gained an ATPL, I feel that I'm in a reasonable position to say that comparing a flying licence to a good degree in an academic subject is like comparing apples and oranges.

Having completed a law degree, and gained an ATPL, I feel that I'm in a reasonable position to say that comparing a flying licence to a good degree in an academic subject is like comparing apples and oranges.

The only difference, of course, is that pilots have a degree in "results" - they have to operate in "real time" often at unsocial working hours in a cramped noisy environment etc!

As far as "How can we UNITE to make AIRLINE profession one of respectability and better money?" is concerned words to do with closing the stable door after the horse has bolted come to mind.

The main challenge I see is that pilots in general across the industry are not united and there seem to be more "Martini" pilots these days - "anytime, anywhere, any place and any Terms & Conditions"

At Cambridge, a student spends 3 terms of 8 weeks per year, for three years. That's 18 months.

But let's face it, it's not academically challenging. Not under JAA.

Borrowing loads of money to fund a frozen ATPL is not a reason for airlines to pay more.

Salaries will remain low as long as there are hundreds of people borrowing unaffordable sums of cash to fund a dream, which for many, turns out to be not quite what they thought. Only when that supply is reduced will those who are qualified be paid a bit more. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen for many years and our relative worth will continue to diminish compared with our peers in other professions.

Our profession is like every other.. in a state of constant change; influenced, as it is by many factors..politics, global and national economies, competition, changing needs and expectations etc etc..

Bottom line is.. it doesn't matter a :mad: what Joe-Public thinks because his opinion is based on ignorance and tabloid drivel. WTF does he know about the huge volume of ATPL studying.. or learning to fly by sole reference to instruments, or bad-weather operations..or satisfying management's (often unreasonable) expectations?

No siree... what really matters is what you think of your success, your achievements and your responsibilities.

Maybe if your self-esteem is so low, you might consider a career change?

Just MHO of course.

Bobdazzle, I'm not sure why you have such a problem with bankers and it would seem graduates in general?
I did an academically tough degree at a good university. It was bloody hard work and I wouldn't have been able to succeed in the industry I worked in, without it. I was paid £12500 in my first year of work and though £20,000 was seen as the heady heights.
I changed career for something I really wanted to do and thoroughly enjoy. I can tell you from direct experience that the fATPL training I did was easy in comparison to my degree. Yes, there were tough bits and yes, there were bits where I could have really messed up. But to say an ATPL is comparable to a degree is just nonsense. The tough bit about doing it was the personal financial risk.
I now get paid more than I ever did in my former career, by a large margin, although that was not a factor in deciding to do this. I love my job, I don't have to go to work as much as I used to and I get well paid..... It ain't so bad.

when a POSTER resorts to random and inappropriate use of underscoring,
CAPITAL LETTERS and bold type, (like Bobdazzle for instance), it could be that their argument lacks substance and CONVICTION ...imho OF COURSE! Mind how you go. :ugh:

Scrap Seniority for promotion.

I did make a post earlier Mr Dazzle on why your suggestion,
while exemplary, is just a pipe dream. Unfortunately some
mod instantly deleted it within minutes of posting for some
reason best known to him (or her) self.

No use me trying to post it again because I'm sure it'll be
chopped even if I tried changing the wording.

Can PM if you want to follow up.

Make aviators not P2F screen watchers and button pushers!

In no particular order:

1. Remove the mostly irrelevant multi guess JAR/EASA ATPL system and return to an apprenticeship scheme with g-teed jobs if above average piloting and automation airmanship skills are evident.

2. Mandatory Upset Recovery training at least 1x per year for all airline pilots in aerobatic aircraft following a RAF CFS/ Military or similar syllabus.

3. Better support for young pilots entering the profession with debt advice, mentoring by older pilots, and improved on the job training through GA and Turbo prop airlines.

4. Recruitment of experienced Pilots (including ex military and Turbo Prop/GA Aviators) who cannot afford to pay for Type Ratings nor subsidise Airline Line Flying

5. Create a Legally based industry watchdog accountable to the Govt. that monitors Flight Schools and Airline pilot training practices.

6. Cadets start on the shop floor (maybe like old Air Atlantique system) and work their way up by merit not $$$$$.

7. Chop students who fail Flight/SIM tests at 2nd attempt regardless of their ability to pay TRTOs $$$$$

8. Self funding only up to frozen ATPL. Remove P2F TRs and "Line Flying" entirely. Create Airline Industry wide Bonding system which goes where ever pilot moves to and account number must be declared on CPL/ATPL licence.

9. Stop chimps training chimps churning out X thousand inexperienced and now broke CPLs per year. Instead make the MPL/Integrated route better through 1-8 above and remove the "train to be a copilot" part of MPL replace with "train to be resilient aviator capable of taking over if the P1/Captain should expire enroute/become overloading in an emergency".

10. Raise the standard of Instructors from PPL to TRTO TRIs and TREs by paying at least a living wage and providing standardisation and opportunities for Instructors to progress their flying and learn from others in Airlines, Military, Manufacturers etc.


If we don't do something like this FOs will be ground based Screen Watchers working out of call centres 1000s of miles from the airliners they will pay to monitor !

I quite like the ideas in the above post.

It would be nice to share the cockpit with pilots who have earned the right to be there rather than paid to be there.

Give it 5 years and the CTC type pilots will be moaning too about the lack of jobs as more pay to fly wallers pour into the bottom end of the market taking the jobs of more experienced F/O's

All this has to be bad for CRM if you ask me, which you didnt so I will shut up now.

Go back in history. On this side of the pond, airlines were run by pilots; Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, Delta etc. As soon as the accountants took over, everything changed. Now it's difficult to even get a meal on a flight. Also the influx of the charter industry has put so much pressure on the skeds that many good airlines have disappeared. Charters cheapened everything.
The other problems are; the seniority system (which only benefits the airlines) preventing pilots from moving to other jobs and maintain their current status. Instead they start at the bottom again, even with years of experience. Absolute rubbish. Next we have the age old reluctance of pilots to stick together for their own good. Look at all the finger poking on PPrune for example. Look at the lack of common sense in the AF447 posts. Till we overcome these obstacles, nothing will change. Too bad.
One more point. Airlines are no good without aeroplanes and 'planes are no good without pilots. Unfortunately the pilots don't realize that fact. They are really the ones in control. Will someone please inform them.

http://archvillain.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/not-this-again.jpg

Wise up guys, things ain't ever going to change in fact they are only going to get worse, so get used to it.

Only hope of any improvement is China sucking a few experienced ex-pats over there but the long line of P2F wannabe's will provide cannon fodder for the airlines.

So suck it up guys, not what you want to hear but best your gonna get,

MOG:

Only if you take it lying down!:yuk::ugh::ugh:

ricfly744, you obviously hanker after the good old days, as many of us do.

Sadly, in those 'golden days', aircraft used to crash a lot more often than they do now. Obviously the reasons for this improvement in safety are numerous, but 'modern' CRM has undoubtedly played a part.

Just because the captain's authority has been democratised a little, does not mean the professional standing of the job should be diminished.

7. Chop students who fail Flight/SIM tests at 2nd attempt regardless of their ability to pay TRTOs $$$$$


Get real.

TWO strikes and you're out is a harsher sentence than I've ever heard!

Actually the stats for western built jets show that accidents caused by pilot error are increasing - the past 20 years of technology improvement have done more than CRM to improve safety but we have almost reached the limit on how much safety can be improved by technology and now it is the automation takes you to the scene of the stall.

SOPs have become more stringent because modern pilots are not trained how to handle aircraft. Indeed open technical communication on the cockpit has been reduced by inexperienced crew's capacity limits.

If we continue to produce button pushers/screen watchers over aviators the accident rate will continue to rise.

Flight Global 01/2012:

"
At a major training conference at the UK Royal Aeronautical Society in August, it was acknowledged that this is a multifaceted problem, requiring changes in regulation as well as investment in training resources within airlines. Robert Scott, of Scott Consulting, described one facet of this modern problem. The system, he said, is increasingly producing pilots incapable of dealing with the unexpected.
"The intellectual and physical skills once *required of the pilot have largely been replaced by an emphasis on 'soft skills' and *automation management. The pilot who once cynically challenged sources of information now readily accepts information from a variety of sources, many computer-generated, without question."
One of the results of this has been the rise of loss-of-control or lack-of-control fatal accidents in the past two decades. As it happened, LOC was not a big cause of 2011 accidents, but in many respects it was not a typical year, and 12 months is a very short time in aviation safety statistics."

The answer to the question in the thread is, we can't do anything. All the relevant forces are against us now. It really is too late.

Personal view;

I have now left the profession half way through a full career because I couldn't stand it any longer. I am just getting by on my savings, but what a relief. I now have a slight appreciation of what Nelson Mandela felt like as the prison doors opened before him.

There are a minority of pilots who can't live without flying about all day and they will do the job for any terms and conditions. I would love to see an MRI scan of their brain, I'm sure it would look nothing like anything I have seen outside of a sci-fi movie, and definitely not the same as mine. I'm not knocking these guys, if they enjoy it, well good for them. How their grey matters works will always be a complete mystery to me.

There are probably a large number of us who feel entering this ' profession' was a big mistake. Terms and conditions will go in one direction because of supply and demand, the anti-union mindset of many new pilots and the much freer flow of the pilot workforce worldwide (further stripping power from still old fashioned regional unions).

As for flying skills, regulator activity responds only to levels of body bags and nothing else. Just look at the way the UK CAA and Government have happily agreed with the airlines that the EASA FTL proposals are fine despite scientific evidence to the contrary.

Aviation. A Mugs game.

Yes we can unite and only through intelligence.
Most pilots do have an above average intelligence when they do not act as sheep.

" There is intelligence only when there is no fear, when you are willing to rebel, to go against the whole social structure ... "

Does not intelligence arise with great revolt and a great collective effort ?

Dont be satisfied with explanations, inquire,


How did unions get started ? Of course it was not easy.

It is up to you, me and all of us is it not ?

Let say, no we do not accept this situation. NO FEAR !
The only thing you have to fear is fear itself.

Hint dont let them know you love to fly, you are a professional, it is a craft that takes a lot of work and focused attention.




Is it acceptable that many of our fellow pilots go into debt while the big executives like MOL laugh in our faces ?

Being complacent and content as the big executives, and big bankers and the Very wealthy get a bigger piece of the pie, only encourages them to take more.

Lets wake up to what is going on, no ?

Look at the middle east, who would have predicted Egypt,?

A new movment is possible but we must be proactive in our unions and tell them

Hang in there and do not accept the job with worse conditions, try to think that we are responsable for the situation.

They take advantage of our selfishness. ?

Permission to speak freely sir?

Respect is something you earn, not something that comes automatically with the uniform.

I don't want a fixed seat in the crewbus, and I sure would like my colleague in the cockpit to speak up even - and this may come as a shock to you - when he is not spoken to! Or would you like him sitting next to you, silently waiting for things to get out of hand, when you make a mistake? Or wait, maybe you never make mistakes? :ugh:

Get real, CRM did not get us in this situation. Poor managment combined with the low cost philosophy did.

Is it acceptable that many of our fellow pilots go into debt while the big executives like MOL laugh in our faces ?

No it certainly isn't, but does MOL make pilots go in to debt? I would argue that each man makes is own decisions, and one who is intelligent enough to become a pilot should be able to decide whether taking on that level of debt is acceptable for him. No one forces anyone to spend money they don't have and I really don't think that you can lay the blame for that at MOL's door. I certainly don't agree with the practise of pilots paying for ratings and line training, but no one holds a gun to anyone's head to make them pay. There are other choices in life.

Perhaps there is a proportion of blame that should be shouldered by pilots of 15 years ago, or thereabouts, who didn't really kick up a fuss when Ryanair and Easy Jet started this 'self-sponsored' precedent, and particularly didn't put pressure on the unions of the time to stop this thing before it really took hold.

Sadly I fear that genie is so far out of the bottle now.

Pilots have a great history of talking a good fight in the crewroom or on bulletin boards like this, but can be woefully inactive beyond that.

'Reaching the position of Captain should, YES, be enough to earn respect from all.'

Are you serious? So all captains deserve the same respect, just because they are captain?

Tell that to the family of those killed by cpt. Van Zanten, he was described as being really 'old school' by his colleagues.

Tell that to the family of those killed by cpt. Schettino (Costa Concordia)...

I would rather state that people in general deserve respect based on their behaviour and not just because they have reached a certain rank.

'Anyone with a normal IQ can be an engineer, doctor, lawyer. Very few can be pilots, fewer can be Captains, just some get to be a WB Captain' :D

Please get off your high horse and smell the menure... :yuk: So now we as captains are the next best thing to god, maybe on the same level as an astronaut on a good day? It is exactly this attitude that undermines true airmanship. A good captain keeps an open mind at all times, sees the bigger picture in tough situations. That is kind of hard to do with your head in the clouds. Or up your :mad:


Respectfully yours...

Couldn't agree with you more on that! I'm often shocked by the lack of genuine respect in day to day human interaction. But that is something that affects us all, not only those that fly for a living.

I was under the impression that you thought some of us deserve that respect more than others, hence the 'reward' of sitting in the front seat in the crew bus. And that a WB captain deserves more respect than a guy driving a regional jet in Timboektoe. I would buy them both a drink and listen to their stories, any day....

Maybe I misread your posts - I doubt it - but if I did, my sincere apologies.

All the best :ok:

Its about respect all right.
Society is made up of us, it is up to us to change it and each one of us can. Dont believe the hype. Society seems to respect the billionaires and those with status. It is time for pilots to work on regaining that lost status.

Why is there less respect for professionals now ?

Can we create our own destiny and momentum ?

It seems they have forgotten about Sully and landing in the Hudson river.

We must all work so that the respect comes back just like it did after the hudson river. No ?

By being patient and holding on and not taking the poor job,with nasty conditions, does not your action make a difference ? What if we all did ?

All over the world the respect returned as it will again after the Hudson river flight.

Sully united us all dont let them forget it.

As has been mentioned before it is a case of Supply and Demand.
Oversupply causes companies to reduce conditions and not give a toss.
Pilots will not unite to a large enough critical mass to have an effect of one voice. Reading the mixture of replies here is enough to demonstrate that.

As an individual there is something you can do, and if enough like minded people do it there will be change:

Simply get out there and make it known how terrible this industry now is.

Put people off from even considering taking up the profession to start with.
Supply reduces.

-Be critical of newspaper reports of pilot pay and shortages, you call that newspaper reporter up, or post a comment on the website story up and set the record straight and try to back it up as best as you can with facts. They then think twice about ever running a story again with lame facts. I noticed it seemed to have an affect in my home country when I went on the rampage!
The worst stories are those where the CEOs claim top pilots earn more than them, but they quote the pay on a per hour rate based on flying hours not the total hours of duty for example. - Such as what Joyce has been doing about Qantas.
-Post website links, such as this site The Truth About the Profession - Home (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com) into discussion forums on the net.
-Write letters to the Editor of your local paper to get them published.

I agree with your reasoning, you have good ideas.
However, something more effective could be done in order to stop our T&Cs going further through the drain.
Let's think about it.

Delta T,

I agree with your post and excellent ideas which we should implement into action, Except, dont agree with the statement.

¨Pilots will not unite to a large enough critical mass to have an effect of one voice¨

We can start by being united on one issue at a time, fatigue ( then others )
One voice is what the ECA is working towards the new flight time changes at the european level.

Let tell our member associations, ECA,ALPA and IFALPA what we want as they are they and the delegates we send there from different associations work for us. They need to be reminded of this by our participation, not our passivity.
IFALPA is only as strong as the support we and our delegates, give it. Let our delegates know what the issues are ? so that they pass it on to IFALPA, no ?
Call me idealistic, but with blood, sweat and tears it is possible, easy no.

( Right about reducing demand, lets not condone guys who work practically for free and paying to get a first job.)

In fact there is a campaign underway right not by the ECA, which deserves our support. Sign up and register, arent there proposed FAA changes in the U.S. as well

Lets all register. No ?

Fatigue rule changes coming

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