Grammar. Spelling and Punctuation

[Two's in]

It doesn't seem to take much these days for a thread to slide into a tangential willy-waving spectacle regarding the literary attributes of various contributors. There is definitely an old school and a new school approach to this - new school leans towards deciding whether or not you were able to successfully make a point; old school reminding everyone that first impressions are just that.

I found that early career shredding in front of an audience, where my seeming inability to use a dictionary or establish the correct definition of an acronym was rapidly and brutally corrected, have led me towards the old school. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing it right the first time. Clearly the dreaded hand held penis extensions, whereby you can type away with two thumbs in order to ask your significant other exactly what type of artisan milled, Tuscan granary loaf to buy from the supermarket have contributed to the decline of complete sentences, but it shouldn't prevent people from spelling their inane dribble correctly.

The e-petition thread was a classic example where a well intentioned idea ran the risk of being hijacked by the grammar police. But this was intended to be read by an MP somewhere, so first impressions always count with busy people, be it MP's or Staff officers. To get someone's attention you should be able to demonstrate you have at least applied yourself to the task in hand and using a dictionary or spellchecker should not be beyond the wit of man.

The confusion between brevity and shoddy work has been generated by the proliferation of electronic communication devices but it also speaks volumes for what passes for English teaching in schools these days. Old school and new school doesn't necessarily mean old farts versus young whipper-snappers, but it's a fair bet that those of us over 40 were at least taught the correct way to use the English language at some stage in our lives.

As a suggestion instead of excoriating those who choose not to be burdened down by grammar rules and vocabulary on the thread itself, you simply add it to the "wall of shame" here.

[Willard Whyte]

Nothing personal, but "get a ****ing life" is the thought that springs to mind for those so bereft of joie de vivre that they feel it their mission in life to post and retort as if this forum were a grammar factory.

[Courtney Mil]

Well, no harm in it. Mind you, we all make typos sometimes. I do note that there is a split infinitive in the very first line of this thread :sad:.

There's nothing clever about bad grammar, nothing wrong with communicating properly. To maintain the relevance to flying, we're pretty particular with the way we use words on the RT. So why not here! :cool:

[SirFrosty1]

In correct use of the apostrophe, "be it MP's or Staff officers".

Plural so no apostrophe on MPs.

[Willard Whyte]

But if the grammar Nazis had their way where would the joy in posting an alcohol-fueled rant be?

This isn't RT, and there's a great deal more wrong in the military, let alone the world, than a superfluous apostrophe* here and there.

*Honestly, I had not seen the previous post when I wrote that! The irony was delicious though.

[Chauderon]

I live near a school where the first thing the children see each morning is Infant's Entrance... I'm with Two's in. It's not that difficult, is it?

[Willard Whyte]

Infant's Entrance

Maybe there's just one infant at the school...

[BOAC]

:eek: - what sort of 'school' is that fer *** sake (with appostrofe) Infant's Entrance is either a mouth or ..........................

[Lightning Mate]

I live near a school where the first thing the children see each morning is
Infant's Entrance... I'm with Two's in. It's not that difficult, is it?

im wivvim tu innit

u gotta put de apostrofree in de rite place innit.....

oim from de eest end uv lundun innit...........

...orwuz dat sumfin' else place....

[Tableview]

Theres a diference bettween pore speling and laziness!

We all make typos, specially when typing fast, under stress, or in irritation. We all have words that we simply can't spell. I find double consonant usage confusing and always have to ponder over 'necessary', and 'embarrassed', for example. There are certain plural nouns where possessives become problematic, for example 'children' so that 'Children's Hospital' looks wrong but is correct.

Having worked in a multilingual environment for a long time, I also find that I see so much bad spelling and grammar that my brain fails to register the errors.

What really upsets me is to see people using 'text' abbreviations and lazy spellings on forum boards such as this one. If someone can't be bothered to attempt to express their question or opinion in a reasonably literate manner, then I feel it has little value.

[Lightning Mate]

u shud like tri tawkin wiv like mi uni stoodents ven like...........

iss awsum innit....

[blaireau]

"fuelled". double L

[Willard Whyte]

It was for the benefit of the original poster. Either version can be considered correct, unless one has swallowed an OED. Or is a colossal pedant.

[Charlie Time]

It never ceases to amaze that there is significant proportion of the population who claim English as their native language when clearly it isn't.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Although I admit I am a card-carrying pedant when it comes to written English, I think there is some merit to the wannabes finding out on here that they will need both attention to detail and a thick skin if they want to join the club...they won't get very far with applying to the RAF as aircrew if they submit an application form, or a written solution to an exercise at OASC, which contains basic spelling/grammatical errors.

What does make me chuckle is all the people in the RAF who think they are God's gift to written English just because they have completed ISS! Given that ISS (or TEWE these days) is a sub-standard package taught mostly by people who have a very superficial understanding of English, the written ramblings of ISS alumni are usually nothing short of comedic...not to mention their attempts to debrief others on use of colon vs semi-colon etc etc.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I have spent 11 years teaching at Public Schools. Every report written on every child is read by the Headmaster/Headmistress, and another senior teacher, and every grammatical/spelling point comes back to the author for correction. I've also spent some time in a Command Headquarters doing a lot of proof-reading for a surprisingly reasonable AOC. These experiences have led me to the following conclusions.

Slightly sloppy common sense is replaced by anodyne perfection, and the parent learns a lot less about their child, as it's too much aggro to try to write perfectly presented common sense on difficult topics. I had the same impression of Service Writing.

It is impossible to please pedants, because there is no final authority. Split infinitives would be an example. Oxford dictionaries says it's OK, I asked an Oxford English professor who said it was OK, but 3 out of 4 Heads I worked for wouldn't accept it (despite their degrees being in History).

Is any allowance made by English experts for non-experts? Generally no, despite the sense being perfectly clear. Yet did those same English experts expect me (not just ask me) to fix their computer / projector / car / cat-flap (really) for them? You bet!

Thus* I operate the following procedure.
Is the sense unclear?
Is this important and open to misinterpretation (e.g. safety instructions)?

If the answer to both these questions is no, then let it pass - life's too short.
Feel free to form your own opinions about the writer, but the rest of us don't need to hear about it.

Essentially, anyone correcting unimportant stuff is pitiable, not authoritative.

*Sentence deliberately started with a co-ordinating conjunction, to prove another moot point.

[TurbineTooHot]

Grammar:

The difference between knowing your sh!t and knowing you're sh!t.

That is all.

[Tableview]

Or understanding the difference between :

"Let's eat Mum" and " Let's eat, Mum."

[Sand4Gold]

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Ui nervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt

But I take Two's in's point, I still cringe when I go into my local barber's and cast an eye on his price list, which has on it - 'OAP's.....£5'.

S4G

[Tankertrashnav]

Fox I think you are essentially correct in what you say, but it is ironic that your opening sentence could cause confusion on an international forum. When you said you had taught in public schools, my immediate thought was "I wonder which ones" as I once taught at Marlborough. I then realised that as you live in Canada you probably meant what we over here would call state schools. Of course any fule no that in Britain a public school is in fact a private school!

Oh the joys of English!

[Warmtoast]

For some time I've used a "Brief Guide to Writing Proper"

Passed on FWIW

1. Each pronoun agrees with their antecedent.
2. Just between you and i case is important.
3. Verbs has to agree with their subjects.
4. Watch out for irregular verbs which have crope into our language.
5. Don’t use no double negatives.
6. A writer mustn’t shift your point of view.
7. When dangling, don’t use participles.
8. Join clauses good, like a conjunction should.
9. Don’t write a run-on sentence you have to punctuate it.
10. About sentence fragments.
11. In a letter themes reports articles and stuff like that we use commas to keep a string of items apart.
12. Don’t use commas, which aren’t necessary.
13. Its very important that you use apostrophe’s right.
14. Don’t abbrev.
15. Check to see if you have any words out.
16. As far as incomplete constructions, they are wrong.
17. Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.
18. It is important to never ever under any circumstances split an infinitive.
19. Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do.
20. The active voice is preferred.
21. Use of the passive voice is to be avoided.
22. Eschew obfuscation.
23. Last but not least, avoid clichés like the plague.

My favourites - 19 and 23!

[earswentpop]

Piano. Would suit old lady with curly wooden legs.

[Courtney Mil]

Warm Toast,

I love it.

[Rigga]

OP Said:
"...intended to be read by an MP somewhere"

MPs have to make sense of all sorts of linguistic issues and varieties. The fact is that most MPs will make a meal out of anything that makes publicity or headlines - however its spellt or proffeerd.

[Courtney Mil]

Or is it by a MP?

And this is the best thread in the world in which to make a typographical error. I'm typing so slowly now. Proffeerd? But I do agree with your point, Rigga.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

M's P, not MPs, surely!:E

[ex-fast-jets]

Please, can we also have this thread in other languages, as so kindly offered by our NHS, so that those who do not speak English as their first language, can also enjoy its subtleties.

[Neptunus Rex]

Torque of the Devil

QED! As a student at JCSS I challenged one of the tutors when she pontificated that "If I were you" used the subjunctive tense. When I suggested to her that the subjunctive is a 'mood' not a 'tense,' she became extremely offensive. Cliterati rather than literati, methought.

When the course ended, she was left to her classroom antics whilst I went back to my flying job.

[Spurlash2]

Female, 32, Single brown hair.

[BEagle]

Or is it by a MP?

Interesting that you should pose that question, Courtney. I was always taught that the indefinite article should be appropriate to the noun, even when the noun has become part of an abbreviation, acronym or initialism.

So I would have been taught a MP, as in 'a Member of Parliament'.

However, Her Deliciousness teaches Modern English to European students and advises me that phonetics are now of greater importance. Thus 'an MP' ('an Emm Pee') is the correct modern form.

She's so lovely that I could not possibly argue; however, my prep school English master, 'Puffing' Billy Cope would never have accepted 'an RAF aeroplane', he would have insisted upon 'a RAF aeroplane'.....

Meh. Innit, bruv.....:uhoh:

[Lima Juliet]

Female, 32, single brown hair

I think I met her in Stringfellow's once; she was almost 100% Brazilian...:}

[Halton Brat]

"when I go into my local barber's and cast an eye"

When you go into your local barber's what? The mind truly boggleth.

Scribes with a greater knowledge than I of English grammar are at work here, clearly. However, I would much rather read a work that was light, witty, well-constructed & engaging.

Would-be Oxbridge Dons should flex their literary muscles elsewhere, methinks.

HB

[BEagle]

....light, witty, well-constructed & engaging.

An inappropriate ampersand, methinks!

[green granite]

"when I go into my local barber's and cast an eye"

When you go into your local barber's what? The mind truly boggleth.

Surely the word shop is implied in that sentence, a perfectly legitimate technique.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Proper Officers never talk shop.

[MG]

A sign in The new Fast Show, available online: Swiss Tonis Motor's. Made me chuckle.....

I'll get me coat!

[Courtney Mil]

BEags,

Well argued. But, for the reason you first stated, it's a MP. I must also question your idea of putting the Pee into MPs. Surely our role is to take it out of them:ok:

[ShyTorque]

13. Its very important that you use apostrophe’s right.

These days that could also read:

13. Its very important that you use apostrophe's, right?

Commas and full stops, too. A postcard in Hartley Witney post office window once proclaimed:

"For Sale Triumph Spitfire. Present lady owner regularly serviced".

I'm sure she was. :cool:

True story.

[Jayand]

It's bad enough that we had umpteen pages of drivel about some Russian task force but, now we have a thread about grammar! Get a feckin life! I'll wager somwhat controversially that those poor 6 lads in their warrior didn't have the tightest grip on their grammar, we should be discussing the pointless waste of their precious lives instead of this pathetic diatribe.

[Willard Whyte]

If you put a ban on humour whenever a serviceman dies, by whatever means, you may as well give in to the enemy, for life would no longer be worth living, let alone fighting for.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Fox3

With reference to your very interesting post on the first page, "thus" is functioning here as an adverb, not as a conjunction.

Just sayin'.

[Jayand]

Humour, where's the humour? Maybe I missed the funny bit!

[Courtney Mil]

Jayand,

I cannot and would not argue with your sentiment and I applaud what you say. What we discuss here means no disrespect to those six fine men. But understand that neither we nor anyone else will shut down what we do every time our brothers fall. Life goes on, Buddy. That doesn't mean I'm not respectful or upset by what has happened. This ridiculous forum is not related in any way to what has happened and keeps happening in AFG. Or anywhere else. Would you have us all shut down every time this happens?

I say again, I agree with your sentiment.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Courtney

Just so you know, someone has registered an account under the name "Cuortney Mil" and is sending people (me, at least) offensive messages via PM in response to this thread.

Ewan

[500N]

Ewan
Thanks for the above post. That's what is needed plus in future report it to the mods. CM is onto it.

I'd suggest keeping an eye out in the Members list to make sure you haven't been "duplicated" !

[Milo Minderbinder]

so I'm not the only one getting these faked PMs

see http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/479613-more-faked-user-ids-used-pms.html

[Jayand]

Courtney mil, I don't want to stop anybody talking about what they want on an open forum and agree that life goes on but, waffling on about such drivel is pathetic, especially after their sad loss. This thread is not even military related let alone aviation related!

[Milo Minderbinder]

Jayand
May I suggest that you have the same option as has been pointed out by others before?
Firstly, if you don't wish to constructively debate a topic, or if that topic has no interest to you then ignore it. Don't read it If others share your opinion, the topic will die through neglect. If others disagree, then the thread will perpetuate and you will find that you are in a minority.
The corollory is that if you wish to discuss a specific subject such as the recent fatalities then there is no reason why you should not start such a thread yourself. If others also feel inclined to think the same way as you, then that topic will perpetuate and you will able to regard yourself as vindicated.

In the meantime, while you may not "want to stop anybody talking about what they want on an open forum", its clear from Ewan's post that someone does, and that someone is quite probably a poster in this thread. It would be interesting to speculate just who that person is, but I'll leave that to others to consider..

[orca]

Jayand,

I disagree with you. Life is multi-facetted and the trivial and boring both have their place. There is absolutely no relationship whatsoever between this thread and the current casualty count in Helmand. I will wager that some or all of those brave boys will have had hobbies, pastimes or interests that others would find dull or irrelevant. I see no reason whatsoever to end this thread. I certainly don't see why you would in light of a fatality.

I also happen to disagree with something else you said. Their deaths are tragic, but I do not believe that their loss was pointless. That's a different thread.

As ever, we disagree only because brave boys like that provide us with the freedom to do so.

[phil9560]

What exactly is a split infinitive ? I consider myself to be fairly literate but i have never knowingly encountered one.

[sisemen]

This thread is not even military related let alone aviation related!

OK. When I was a flt cdr at RAFC Cranwell IOT(military and aviation!) the standard of English used by some who aspired to be officers in the RAF frightened me.

An officer, as a leader in a military force, needs to be able to communicate in such a manner as to be readily understood and not misunderstood. Grammar and the correct use of the language that one was brought up to speak and write is an integral part of that ability.

Other Ranks have no immediate need for such a consummate skill until they reach a position where they also need to be able to communicate - so it's OK if they talk and write in gibberish. One could have argued that some who graduated from IOT should have been in this position.

Those who argue on this thread that correct writing has no place are either of the latter category, an OR, or, horror of horrors, a civilian.

:}

[phil9560]

Officers 'in' or Officers 'of' ?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Phil

From the Longman Dictionary of Linguistics:

split infinitive n
(in composition) a sentence in which the word to in an infinitive has been separated from the base of the verb making the sentence awkward to read. For example: She asked me to as quickly as possible drop over to her house. Without the split infinitive this would be: She asked me to drop over to her house as quickly as possible. In some sentences, however, the split infinitive is appropriate. For example: We expect to more than double profits this year.

[Jayand]

Orca, you are so right this thread may not suit everyone (me especially) and the tragic loss of life has nothing to do with it whatsoever. I was merely trying to trivialise the subject of the thread at a time when other things far more important than grammar are going on.
I do have a choice and I do have a voice, and to try and link this thread to aviation or military by suggesting it's importance to commissioned Officers is tenuous at best, grasping at straws seems more likely!

[green granite]

The most well known split infinitive is: "To boldly go where no man has gone before", it should be: "To go boldly....."

This is a useful resource: Grammar Topics: Adverbs,verbs,adjectives,determiners,articles,conditionals, prepositions etc... (http://www.edufind.com/english/grammar/grammar_topics.php)

[TheWizard]

Other Ranks have no immediate need for such a consummate skill until they reach a position where they also need to be able to communicate - so it's OK if they talk and write in gibberish

The most ridiculous and pompous statement of the year goes to............

the very backwards nemesis. :rolleyes:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Jayand:

Orca, you are so right this thread may not suit everyone (me especially) and the tragic loss of life has nothing to do with it whatsoever. I was merely trying to trivialise the subject of the thread at a time when other things far more important than grammar are going on.
I do have a choice and I do have a voice, and to try and link this thread to aviation or military by suggesting it's importance to commissioned Officers is tenuous at best, grasping at straws seems more likely! Here is a perfect example of something you really need to learn. I read this thread because I thought it might be somewhat amusing. It was. Upon completion I returned to the Military Aircrew forum and scanned on down. My eyes lit upon a thread entitled "How many more lives".

"Fair enough", I thought, "That might be an opinion of interest to me." and was about to click on it when I noticed the author and decided that my interest had been lost and I moved on. It's the internet and you are responsible for your own filtration. You have a perfect right to scribble away but you do not have the right to be listened to and this was a perfect example of how it should work.

BTW, no disrespect to the fallen, I said my piece elsewhere.

[Eric T Cartman]

Room for misunderstanding ? ........

What is this thing called fire ?
What is this thing called ? Fire ?
What is this thing called ? Fire !
What! Is this thing called fire ?

I'll get my coat ! :O

[P6 Driver]

I feel much better for reading most of the posts featured on this particular thread as it gives me the impression that whatever I write, I can or will be found wanting, so I might as well not worry about it!

:ok:

[hval]

P6 Driver,

so I might as well not worry about it!


What exactly is "it"? I have always wondered what "it" might be. Is "it" the same for everyone who worries about "it"?

:}

[Tankertrashnav]

Room for misunderstanding

As the old song put it

"What is this thing called love?"

or was it

"What is this thing called, love?"

[SARowl]

Two's In,

Be very, very careful when you set yourself up to an expert in all things grammatical.

I spotted four mistakes in your post, and my grammar is awful...

[Spurlash2]

..and I only spotted one in yours.

yourself up to an expert

Where's a 'be', when you need one?

Jus' sayin'. ;);)

Or is that a wahh? We'll never know.

[Jayand]

Airborne Aircrew, thankyou.
You have just confirmed my beliefs further.

[NutLoose]

Some people need to get a life, often my iPad changes what I type and you can often miss it.

[Spurlash2]

Airborne Aircrew, thankyou.
You have just confirmed my beliefs further.

It was a joke...

Bye Bye Pprune.

[Courtney Mil]

Come on, Nut. You're better than that! :ok::ok:

Anyway my iPad

Not sure about that one.

Courtney
Sent from my typewriter.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Sent from my typewriter.

Fibber... ;)

[Courtney Mil]

Would I lie to you? Anyway, proove it. Oh, hang on. I didn't think that one through. :uhoh: