36 And my dream has died. [Archive]

angelorange

8th Mar 2012, 18:37

4 years? Try 8 years just to get a CPL issued back when you needed 700h to get a CAA one! This included 4 years on and off unemployed and low wage jobs in the 1990s recession when BAE was laying off 5000 Aerospace engineers a month and my fellow Aero Eng students had just graduated.

You just happened to start dreaming at the beginning of a recession.

Even if you manage 12 h flying a year in any heavier than air machine the dream can still live on!

Give up if you want to but perseverance can pay off even if it takes 10 years longer than you wanted.

How about this chap -

In 1831, Abraham Lincoln failed in a business venture.

In 1832, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for the state legislature.

In 1833, Lincoln failed once again in another business venture.

In 1835, Lincoln's fiancee died, shattering him.

In 1836, Lincoln suffered a nervous breakdown.

In 1843, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Congress.

In 1848, Lincoln once again was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Congress.

In 1855, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Senate.

In 1856, Lincoln was defeated as a candidate for U.S. Vice President.

In 1859, Lincoln once again was defeated as a candidate for the U.S. Senate.

In 1860, Abraham Lincoln was elected the 16th President of the United States of America.

fa2fi

8th Mar 2012, 19:07

Same here too. After seven years since i got my ppl, four years since my CPL I've kinda realised its not going to happen. I am happy as cabin crew as I get to fly everyday and it's better than a 9-5 by a long way. I spent too long in mind numbing jobs paying my way through pilot training and just thought I could be doing that forever.

There's just nothing out there unless you have £30k for a TR. I always think 'imagine turning left' when I get on a plane but it's cheese and ham melts and scratch cards for the foreseeable. But I can't see the point of spending thousands a year keeping current. Having said that I'm happy doing what I do. Now only if I could get a job and put my FI rating to use (determined not to give up on that too).

I honestly wish I was in your shoes and hadn't bothered. I'm paying £370 on pilot training debt. If I didn't have that to pay I'd be quite comfortable on my modest wage. But I struggle to make ends meet most months.

Megaton

8th Mar 2012, 19:10

First flying lesson c. 1985. First commercial flying job Nov 2004 which I reckon is about 19 long, frustrating years.

wangus

8th Mar 2012, 19:19

Blessing in disguise. Don't be too sad. I have wasted 80K and six years. Not a sniff of a job since qualifying in 2008. I wish I had never started. You are right it's a dream. Ask how many pilots encourage their children to follow in their footsteps. Very few. Just do PPL flying. More fun than sat in the cruise for 7 hours I'm told.....

Jerry Lee

8th Mar 2012, 19:23

If you can afford a PPL one day, get it! You will taste the sheer pleasure of flight.

pitm777

8th Mar 2012, 19:31

If you think you can do a thing or if you think you can’t do a thing – you’re right.

Go for PPL and have fun learning every stage of it

Enjoy GA . Live your aviation life .

All the best and hope to hear you getting ppl soon

Obstacles can't stop you. Problems can't stop you. Most of all, other people can't stop you. Only you can stop you .

206Fan

8th Mar 2012, 19:33

Check out the GAPAN PPL Scholarship.

Flying Scholarships - GAPAN (http://www.gapan.org/career-matters/scholarships/)

http://www.gapan.org/file/580/ppl-2012.pdf

Mikehotel152

8th Mar 2012, 20:05

I'm very sorry for you midiman, but you are not alone.

Perhaps you're doing a few wannabees a favour by giving them a dose of reality. It is very easy to sign up to a CPL course and get carried away by the brochures and believe the FTOs when they paint a picture of your possible future career. But for a third of graduates it takes years and for at least another third it never happens.

Always have a good backup plan (a career!) to fall back on.

rmcb

8th Mar 2012, 21:47

In 1860, Abraham Lincoln was elected the 16th President of the United States of America.

April 15th, 1865 he was shot dead. Be careful what you wish for!

Get a PPL, do the IR and play with those privileges. Good luck.

gooneydog

9th Mar 2012, 00:52

In 1973 got PPL First Pilot job in 1994 Have enjoyed an 18 yr airline career which began at 48 yrs of age never say "never"

Luke SkyToddler

9th Mar 2012, 01:09

I know a guy who didn't even get started until his late 40s. Happily flying an Air New Zealand ATR these days.

To be honest in these days where everything is buy-a-type-rating and pay-to-fly, age has never been less relevant, because the employer isn't investing a penny in you anyway they don't care.

Sure you won't get a BA cadetship, probably won't get a longhaul command at a legacy airline, and the later you leave it the less time you have to recoup your investment. Those are facts that won't change. But if you're realistic about where you're likely to end up (regional or lo-co at best), if you've got the money and just want to blow your kids' inheritance on your play thing, then it's entirely possible a lot older than your current age.

I don't approve of pay-to-fly or anything else and I'll probably STILL slag you off if you go down that road - but I guess old codgers have just as much of a right to trash the industry as the young kids do :rolleyes:

Genghis the Engineer

9th Mar 2012, 06:18

Twice in my career I've been told my career was over.

Age 19 (yes 19!) when I was chopped from University Air Squadron training, I was told very clearly that I had no aptitude to be a pilot.

So I did my PPL, and a degree in aeronautics, and got a job in flight testing engineering. The PPL took 2 years because I could only afford a lesson every 2-3 weeks, and that at the expense of just about everything else.

Age 26, I failed a very expensive course paid for by my employer in Flight Test Engineering, and was told that (in the opinion) of my tutors I was totally unsuited to any role in flight testing.

So I went and did a PhD in flight testing, in my own time and with mostly my own money. Progressed onto some really quite senior jobs, and ended up running a series of test programmes and international campaigns.

Aged 41 I now have 4 figure hours, nearly 400 hours in flight testing, have crewed the first flights of 10 new-build aeroplanes, worked in aviation in more countries than I bother counting any more, and whilst only a small part of my life is piloting, do have a commercial licence and an instructor rating, and overall work full time in aviation, making a salary that wouldn't embarrass a lot of full time airline pilots and flying most weeks.

Despite twice, very authoritatively, being told that I was completely unsuited to a professional aviation career.

So you've given up after only 4 years. Fair enough, it leaves the field more open to the truly dedicated. The ones who push every waking minute for the aviation career they really want. I'm not claiming I'm special in having pushed that hard, loads of people have - quite a few have posted on this thread already.

Aviation careers, any of the worthwhile ones anyhow, are tough to get into, and tough to stay in. If you have that dedication, you can get there.

If that consists of watching other people flying out of LHR and wishing, then you don't have that dedication. After 4 years, if you wanted it enough, any salaried income would have got you a PPL and a start on the ATPL groundschool (or whatever other route you are taking, I'm the first to say that an airline cockpit isn't the only job, and personally I was never interested in that route.)

G

Genghis the Engineer

9th Mar 2012, 06:38

April 15th, 1865 he was shot dead. Be careful what you wish for!

Get a PPL, do the IR and play with those privileges. Good luck.

I didn't know the gent personally, but I suspect that AL really wanted to change a nation, abolish slavery, and be remembered for what he'd done.

He'd be dead by now anyhow. He won.

G

Aware

9th Mar 2012, 06:38

Your too young to chuck in towel, I started at age 35, never really wanted to do airline flying as I have a unrelated business, which I wanted to keep going. Took me several attempts at most of the exams, flying courses were hard for me, but I kept going, now at the age of 47 I fly most weeks Im an instructor examiner and have over 1000 hours. One of my students is just finished his commercial training at the age of 48.

So stop feeling sorry for yourself and get going.

I would add that it is a gamble to get a well paid job. I was an instructor in Cabair for several years freelance, I followed at lot of the students progression, as they come back to me to get their SEPs signed. Out of 25 guys I knew only a few are now still flying, a lot of them have let licenses lapse and moved on, never to go back to flying, but if you accept its not an easy path or there are no guarantees, get stuck in, it is possible to get there, but keep your eyes wide open.

Turbavykas

9th Mar 2012, 06:52

Hi Midiman,

Don't you work in IT and UK? Salaries are very good! Go contractor route. I also work in IT. I think IT work can be very frustrating sometimes so it makes you sad. I am from Lithuania and I just got my CPL and salary 1000pounds is considered very good here! If I don't get flying job I am thinking about moving to UK. Look every second airline hires IT developers!!! :) Get the job get to know pilots and they will guide you with your flying career.
You can go flying gliders or ultralights. You can build a plane yourself! Possibilities are endless for you!

tonker

9th Mar 2012, 07:06

Didi any of you consider that the flying clubs are crying our for flying instructors?

mad_jock

9th Mar 2012, 07:49

Are they?

there are stupid amounts of them getting trained up every year.

solapi

9th Mar 2012, 07:50

First of all, sorry for my english!!

I got my PPL in 1991 when I was 19, but I couldn't afford a CPL until 2007, when the crisis was already here.

Now I'm 40 and nobody is hiring me, with 400TT, a fATPL, IR(ME) rating and FI.

But I don't give up. I have started my own business with a friend older than me who is in the same situation. We are doing tiuristic flights without investing a dime. Use your imagination:

We have advertising in the internet for the touristic flights. The website gets 20% of the price. We have an agreement with an FTO which has the license to do the touristic flights, so it is all legal.
We provide the clients, fly the airplanes and get an small share of the price, and the FTO gets flying hours for their airplanes and most of the money for the rental of the airplanes. We all win.

I'm only flying 3h/month, and I have to work as industrial engineer during the week because the earnings are not enought, but the business is going up and maybe in the future we wiil be able to buy our own airplane.

El_Presidente

9th Mar 2012, 08:38

Adapt, improvise, overcome...

Hell, I know it is easier to talk the talk than walk the walk, but I would encourage you to keep the dream alive Midiman - finding the right finance will always be difficult, but I think a famous Chinese saying goes along the lines of 'The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...'

Find the funds for your PPL and go from there...

Genghis offers some valuable comment here - I'm sure we have all found ourselves in a position in life where someone in authority has stated 'you will never make it' - be it a maths exam, a driving lesson or your parkour buddies... the thing is I know lots of people who have been told this, and have made it. I can count my self in that category, having been crushed several times at a well known military training establishment in Lincolnshire; to then go on and excel in my career and pip my peers to some of the most competed for posts in my Branch.

Find a way Midiman...talk to your family and friends...and take the small steps.

Most of all, believe in yourself.

AndoniP

9th Mar 2012, 08:43

midiman

there are loads of different flying jobs out there - not just flying for airlines.

ok i don't really know your circumstances - wife, child, mortgage, full time job etc., so i am working on assumptions here, but it's not over if you don't want it to be. there are so many other opportunities out there. i do understand though, that sometimes you can weigh up all your circumstances and think, nah it won't happen. my wife and i had a baby on new years' day so i have to save up for his future, and i also have a mortgage to pay as well as full time work. so it might seem that that's it, my life is done and i have to stick with it, but i'm still putting a bit away for my flying, no matter what happens and will still look to get in the air whenever possible (weather permitting)

last year i finished my PPL (i'm nearly 38), and am now hours building to start my CPL, as well as currently doing a night qualification. it's a slow process but i'm not in a hurry and i don't have a particular desire to become an airline pilot - i'm under the impression that airlines would prefer to hire younger pilots anyway. once all that is done i'd like to do instructing, and maybe some ferry flying - both opportunities to fly and be paid for the privilege.

i dont know whether you have even started your PPL but i can heartily recommend that you get up in the air and get that licence, because even having that alone is extremely rewarding and is a great achievement. once you have that and fly around the skies, planning flights, visiting other airfields and their cafes, flying abroad, even just chatting to other pilots and instructors, being a member of a flying club, you'll really enjoy it.

if you can spare a bit of money to do your PPL do it, you won't regret it.

Turbavykas

9th Mar 2012, 09:56

Hi AndoniP (http://www.pprune.org/members/249228-andonip),

You post is very informative but if you don't want to be Airline Pilot why do you need a PPL? Flying with PPL you need GA plane that is expensive, old, maintenance has to be done by authorized mechanic ect.
I though that nowadays everybody flies ultralights that are modern, twice as fast and twice as fuel efficient as old GA planes. Even airline pilots enjoy them in free time.

steelbranch

9th Mar 2012, 09:58

Hi Midiman,

I know the feeling, it can be hard to really believe that you can do it, and I guess sitting around at LHR watching planes take off and talking yourself into a funk won't help either.

I wouldn't give up so easily though. I'm 37 and had given up on things about ten years ago, for various reasons, and then had some sort of an epiphany last year and realised I could still make this happen. Doing contract humanitarian work all over the place these past years, and just wrapped up in Somalia. Heading home next week to finish the PPL and take it from there, one step at a time.

It won't be easy and I'll be throwing plenty of hard earned dollars at it (not worth a whole lot in the euro zone!), but for me personally I want to see how this plays out. I'll be contracting for a while yet to pay for it most likely, but so what. One of the other posters suggested talking to other pilots, and at least in my experience this has been a good thing to do. My big question to some guys I met last year was, am I too old to start this now - to a man (and woman too!) they said no, run with it, bearing in mind it'll be tough.

So if you're in the IT business, see about contracting, or get out of the UK and find a country where you can make some decent cash to pay for things. Try NGOs or the UN - they always need IT people. I know a guy who did just that some years back, started flying in his mid-thirties, and now flies a Challenger. Not too shabby. Another lad throwing baggage for years landed a right hand seat at a low cost airline, after much hard work.

I guess moving into it with your eyes open is about as much as any of us wannabees can do. Talk to as many people as you can. But keep trying, at least get a PPL and see how you feel after that. For the rest of you out there, wish us luck!

midiman

9th Mar 2012, 09:58

So you became a first officer at 48?

How did that come about?

AndoniP

9th Mar 2012, 10:11

You post is very informative but if you don't want to be Airline Pilot why do you need a PPL?

To hire an aircraft don't you need a licence of some sort? Or have I done it all wrong? :}

midiman

9th Mar 2012, 10:20

Yes I work in IT.

I get paid well for what do but it's dam boring.

Times are hard in the UK and every year I have to re-apply for my job every year!!

They have also stopped our training. Imagine an airline saying you are getting no further training in your job and you salary has been frozen.

Welcome to the world of IT !!

I feel like a zombie turning up to do the same thing every day. Spending 10 hours a week travelling to work to earn what they give me.

IT is not fun and no longer well paid.

This is why I want to get out and do something for me.

s4ex

9th Mar 2012, 10:29

Hi midiman, and everyone else!

I've been following this forum for a year now, I think. Haven't posted much , but reading lots of threads with interest. And I would say, that my view on everything has changed a lot since then. I'm 24, work as a software developer, which I quite enjoy. Even if you'd asked me 4 month ago, would I get a loan from a bank, quit my job and forget about my (starting, but quite much to lose actually) career, if I could and spend all my money on an opportunity to get into right hand seat, I would say "YES" without hesitation. At that time I was already taking the second day of assessment for EasyJet MPL program, and I was quite determined on getting the whole large sum of money for the training (I probably wouldn't have got it anyway, but that's not the point). Now it's been 4 month since then, and I see it completely differently. I'm partially thankful to those all guys talking about pay-2-fly stuff all around the forum.

I was always trying to rush, to get into Integrated ab-initio program, and learn to fly in 18 month, and as quickly as possible find a job or something. But now I ask myself - "why should I rush anywhere ?". I was afraid, of losing my chance, afraid of something else, impatient of something, nervous, and ready to do reckless things to get what I want. I was ready to get into Cathay Pacific SO program and spend 5+ years in Hong Kong ALONE (now I don't). But being in a rush is never a good thing. Now I admire the old-school pilots, who put lots of effort to getting their license in a modular route. I want to be like them. It sounds more like fun, and personal achievement. Ask yourself why do you want to be a pilot? I hope you'll have an answer "because I like flying", because this is my answer too. And the reason I want become a professional pilot, because you can fly more frequently. But if you'll get flying even once a month, that would be great, right? So take any possibility. You are so young, event half of life haven't passed yet - 39 is nothing. The thing I understand now is not about getting something, but rather living your dream. But living a dream doesn't say that you need to get all your licenses as quickly as possible and then enjoy flying a large aircraft - believe me, you'll never feel that happiness (e.g. I've been struggling to get my Masters, and every day I thought - I'll graduate, and feel free, feel happy, everything will be possible. But when I've received my diploma - nothing's changed, I don't feel that different, its all the same). I feel happy when I know that I'm moving somewhere - visiting pilot schools, arranging training lessons, experiencing something new, meeting experienced pilots, just being in that environment - it's all so exciting. I know that i'm not standing still. And it doesn't require me to put hundreds thousands of pounds into training. I've got 2 hours flight with instructor in my brand new log book. I'm ready to start PPL training, and then, when I have enough finance MAYBE I'll move on to ATPL. Even if it takes 20 years to get a pilot job, even if I won't get it ever, I'll still enjoy every second of flying, because I'm not afraid of losing, of missing chance. Even though flying is my passion, I know that there is something much more important - people we love.

Becoming a gymnastics world champion doesn't mean only fancy gyms and good coaches. Gymnasts may train in a cold garage, why? - because they enjoy gymnastics. The WAY you follow is the most important thing, not the result you get, and getting a pilot job is part of the way (quite significant part btw). So just enjoy it, doesn't matter how much time it will take, believe in yourself, and you'll get where you want to be. It's better to spend 350£ on trial 2 hour starter pack tomorrow, rather than waste 20 years on saving money for integrated route and never get there. Why ? Because the first option gives you 2 hours of flying, the second NONE (simple maths)! And believe me, you'll be more experienced, self-confident and proud of yourself, even if you don't get it till the end.

I wish you good luck, don't give up on your dreams, but be reasonable. I'm too young to give advice, but it's more of my thoughts, rather than advice. At the end of the day, it's your choice. At 39 life is not over and dreams are not either.

BTW: You can always get PPL, then acquire aerobatics skills, spend some time training, meet some people, and get into Red Bull Air Race. Sounds like a great plan, doesn't it? It's professional, but does not require even CPL. Of course it's not that easy as I describe, but the point is that there are lots of opportunities despite airlines, just open your eyes a bit wider, and you'll see those.

Good Luck! Hope to see you some day in the cockpit!

AndoniP

9th Mar 2012, 10:34

Hey midiman,

I'm also in IT, and yeah it does seem like that all the time. The depression of just sitting here doing the same old rubbish, when you could be doing something a hundred times better, it can be disheartening.

First things first, make a plan to get a new job to save for flying lessons. Then once you have the money, book the lessons and enjoy.

A new job is the most important thing, one that will reward you, refresh your career and enthusiasm for IT, and make your time commuting and working seem almost worth it. Something that will allow you to save x hundreds per month for flying.

Don't despair. The road to a PPL can be long, but you can do it, it's easily attainable and not too difficult. But when you're up in the air after having planned a flight to Shoreham, Wellesbourne or wherever, you'll feel on top of the world :ok:

s4ex

9th Mar 2012, 10:43

It's off-topic of course! Why everyone keeps saying, that IT is boring? It actually depends on what you do, IT as well as other industries is very wide. Practice low level C or Ada (IT guys will understand), apply for position in avionics and you are already in aviation industry. Acquire licenses, work hard, and you might get into flight testing one day. There are lots of positions out there!
I'm currently working in embedded, and it gets very exciting once doing something really interesting (set-top box, or mobile device). For the last year I've been traveling more, than some businessmen do (28+ flights). Do you still think it's boring? :)

wingreencard

9th Mar 2012, 11:00

Why not go to the USA, there is no Pay to fly schemes there, pilots are paid from instructor to 747.
my god, why other agencies don't step up and ask airlines to stop to kill us?

fa2fi

9th Mar 2012, 11:11

What flying schools are crying out for instructors?

AndoniP

9th Mar 2012, 11:20

why retrain to become a developer when you can retrain to become a pilot?

going to the usa is going to cost loads for training, and accommodation. it's money he doesn't have i believe.

the most effective way for him to train is part time, and whenever he has the money.

Genghis the Engineer

9th Mar 2012, 12:09

Paid well = able to afford to fly.

Presumably you have evenings free that you could study? Presumably you have weekends free that you could be training? If you have domestic commitments, unless you are a single parent, then I'm guessing that half a day each weekend is feasible. Which should get you to PPL within a year, then hour building whilst you study ATPL groundschool after that.

Sorry, I'm afraid that my sympathy ran out - not that I had much to start with.

If you want to fly enough, you can. We all did, and nobody had it easy. Everybody had to struggle with time and money. Many commuted and hated their day jobs at the same time. I did my CPL whilst doing a busy day-job and commuting 10 hours per week - so it took me a few more hours and a lot more months. Big deal, loads of other people have done that as well.

Pull your finger out and do it, or stop complaining.

G

CAT3C AUTOLAND

9th Mar 2012, 14:52

If you want to fly enough, you can. We all did, and nobody had it easy. Everybody had to struggle with time and money. Many commuted and hated their day jobs at the same time. I did my CPL whilst doing a busy day-job and commuting 10 hours per week - so it took me a few more hours and a lot more months. Big deal, loads of other people have done that as well.

I could not agree more with this statement :D.

206Fan

9th Mar 2012, 14:56

Flying with PPL you need GA plane that is expensive

Try going into Rotary. You will know what expensive is.

Megaton

9th Mar 2012, 15:13

They have also stopped our training. Imagine an airline saying you are getting no further training in your job and you salary has been frozen.

Your salary has been frozen? Luck you. I work for a large airline and we've had two pay cuts in the last six years and had to work significantly harder for less money. You won't get much sympathy round here I'm afraid.

119.35

9th Mar 2012, 16:28

G T Engineer is bang on. The OP is saying his dream is dead due to finances, but from what I can see, he's never done anything to make it a reality.

If your job doesn't pay enough to fund training, then get another job that does. That then becomes part of your master plan and contributes towards the end goal. Most people don't have the money to train sitting in the bank doing nothing - it's all about taking small steps towards making it happen.

What have you done over the past 4 years to make it happen? Once you are a bit older, have commitments and bills to pay, it gets harder. But getting your licence at any age takes commitment and sacrifice.

You still have time, but its not going to fall into your lap.

Mickey Kaye

9th Mar 2012, 17:17

PPL (A) under six grand if you know where to go

Add microlight rating and when you have logged 100 hours PIC do the microlight instructors course.

That will get you flying (and earning a bit of pocket money) for well under 20 grand.

s4ex

9th Mar 2012, 17:49

why retrain to become a developer when you can retrain to become a pilot?Becoming a developer does not require paying thousands of pounds as piloting does, it can be done at home, if you have enough commitment. If you are already in IT, you should already have an understanding of how to program. And you can change your boring job to more interesting quite easily, just some self training is required, if you want. And then earning money for pilot license won't be that hard and boring. If course it is a matter of interest, I'm not saying that you won't be bored by programming, but there are also plenty of other opportunities, I'm not going to list them here. If you want, you can find them.

They have also stopped our training. Imagine an airline saying you are getting no further training in your job and you salary has been frozen.

Welcome to the world of IT !! Don't want to be rude, just curious. What sort of training is required for IT professionals, that you can't (againt) get at home? World of IT is quite unique - you can train yourself without even leaving your flat (everything is in the Internet), unless you require some additional hardware, but that's just in case of defence and/or embedded projects. And those are definitely NOT boring. Of course its not that easy, as it sounds, and after an 8h working day in the office its difficult to make yourself read about microcontrollers, ECUs etc. at home, but while you are not flying (nothing happens in pilot career) - rather than sitting in front of the TV in the evenings (just an example), it is still possible to devote some time to expanding horizons of your current career path in IT, which is I would say 'unlimited'. It may change your life, and even move you forward to flying career.

So, heads up. Be motivated and find commitment. I'm sure you gonna succeed.

Good luck

hooligan88b

9th Mar 2012, 19:57

I feel sorry if your job isn't going well, but there's plenty of choice in IT, and on the whole it's well paid. The hours are normally pretty easy and it tends to be fairly low-stress. However, commuting can be soul destroying and I personally found fixing that problem turned my life around.

In fact it enabled me to have enough spare time and money to get a PPL. Then an IMC. That wasn't too difficult so I got a CPL. Then an instructor rating. Then an aerobatic instructor rating. Then an IR. After a while I needed a new challenge so I got a parachute pilot rating. Then one day when I passing 5000' in the climb for the 10th time being deafened and vibrated to death for £50 a day I thought "what the hell am I doing here I can programme a computer".

So, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

BTW I still work in IT.

midiman

9th Mar 2012, 21:46

It appears we all work in grotty IT lol.

s4ex is right. The best part about IT is that you can get all the training you want in your home lol.

The problem is where I work they dont want to use our skills.

It's like being a Pilot and being asked to serve the passengers tea on full pay.

The economy is messed up and managers are trying to restructure peolple to do all sorts.

I,m not exactly sure what my job is anymore.

I turn up to earn money while life passes me by.

n.dave

10th Mar 2012, 00:10

Hi Midiman,

It's been a while since I last checked Pprune and somehow I found a great interest!
You know, I did so poor in my GCSEs and only managed 7 passes (highest grade C), and I do not want to mention my A levels here... Managed to get on a degree course and did so well in Aeronautical Engineering course- got 2.1...Somehow and somewhare out of a Blue Moon, I wanted to be a pilot!!! Okay, so I try a ppl course and did some further education studies at the same time. I was struggling very bad, couldn't go on solo after so many hours in the circuit. I was losing faith!! Taken me 40hrs to get my first solo!!!! and money was running dry!!! At that time, I was thinking pilot probably wasn't for me but I couldn't stop the dream! I took a break and went on to become a cabin crew for 2 years. During that time, my passion inside me is still strong and yet I still want to be a pilot. I'd asked so many questions to the Airline pilots and researched as much as I can. Finally, in 2009 I left my job and did an integrated course at Cabair. Pass everything first time (atpls &ir), except my cpl skills test. Year 2010, got my fATPL!
Time to look for jobs! First interview with cx, didn't pass the 2nd round.
IR is going to be expired!! Crap. Luckily, got it revalidated for free from my former flt school. hehe.
Second interview with SusiAir, got the offer but didn't take.
Third interview with ka, problems with HKID perm. so had to be stopped!!
Fourth,.. hopefullly there will be one. Will be turning 30 soon!!! omg!!
Currently, working at my parents' catering business and lots of up and down job hunting.

Hmmm. It's a bit like CHESS!!! the game (dream) is not over until you are checked mate!! There are lots of different possibilities in life and it depends how YOU make the next move. Every move you make will open a new opportunity. If you made a bad moved, okay, it made take a bit longer to correct it but YOU will be much wiser and you will learn from it!

If you don't do something about it, you have ZERO chance. Do something about it, probably around 10 percent. Do something and work hard on it, you probably have 90 percent of chance of achieving something you want!!

3 words that I have learnt: Confidence, Focus and Direction.
Confidence, can YOU do it!
Focus, do YOU want it!
Direction, do YOU know what to do!

This is just my opinion. Whatever the best for you, only you can decide it for yourself.

Good Luck

truckflyer

10th Mar 2012, 02:15

"solapi" Something like that would hardly work in the UK, because the AOC itself would cost more then it would be worth doing!
Few looked into that idea in the UK, however to much legal wrangle to even want to go near it!

It is never to late, but.... it is not going to be easy, time flies by much to fast! But feeling sorry for yourself is not going to get you anywhere! And it seems to be a bit of self-pity out there, at the age of 36, I never thought I would have completed my pilot training, even though it was my dream since I was 13, and had PPL when I was 18!

It took me 16 years to get going, it cost me much in money, time, family, friends, and the result, still no jobs! Not even an interview!

But I am not giving up, and this year plan to do more changes to get that first job, who knows, maybe there will be a miracle.

Sorry about your illusive dream, but looking around I feel more sorry for all those who have already spent £50000 - £90000 on training, and running around like me, like headless chickens looking for a job, that will not repay the outlays we have made for at least another 10 years.

Because here is the thing, calculate your training expenses, loss of income during this period and the first 2 -3 years working for peanuts, being away from family, commuting between work and family, having to households! What is more attractive?
Your frozen salary, or trying to keep 2 households on £1500 - £2500 a month?

Maybe what you think is a dream, actually could pretty much be a huge nightmare! Still we get up everyday, look on websites for jobs, PPRUNE to see all the bad news of no hope, and do less and less flying, because need to keep £25.000 aside, in case get a job offer, to pay for your Type Rating!

Besides that, it is all fun and great games! Cheek up, and stop feeling sorry for yourself, in the end you might be the lucky one of us!

wingreencard

10th Mar 2012, 04:21

cpl in USA in 1997, 25000$ in training and got jobs the week after.
lost jobs as well like everybody

last job in 2008 as a fi, lost job.
now 15 years later nothing, just an ATP FAA, CPL a320, and a new green card and I m over 40.

this is a long shoot goal, if you have already problems with money 2-3 years after your CPL, better to give up.
Forget your little life, and be ready to move anywhere.I know training now is over 75k, plus type rating,...the system will probably fail you due to money problems.

how can you refund 100k with a salary at 2k??? work 5-6 years with no money?in 5 years training will cost over 150-200k...for a salary at 1500 a month or less.

If you have kids, house, debt, car, you are in the wrong profession.

If you think BA will call you, forget about it.

flying in EU is finished, it's a dead pond... the futur is USA...why? because the FAA do not authorize the Pay to Fly scheme.

Genghis the Engineer

10th Mar 2012, 06:26

flying in EU is finished, it's a dead pond... the futur is USA...why? because the FAA do not authorize the Pay to Fly scheme.

So you're saying this scheme (http://www.eaglejet.net/specials.htm), this scheme (http://www.alpine-air.com/firstofficer/) and others like them are regarded by the FAA as illegal then?

G

fwjc

10th Mar 2012, 08:53

When I did my PPL the going rate was around £4.5k, so less than it is now, but in real terms it's no more expensive now. Lesson 1 -it's never going to be as cheap to fly as it is now.

I cleaned aeroplanes and other volunteer duties and instead of taking money, I got people to put in my flying account.

It took me four years, to the day as it happens, and £2k of real money, to get my PPL. £2k over four years isn't that bad a pay-out. Lesson 2 -where there is a will, there's a way.

To get the money to do the Commercial training took quite a bit longer, and there have been lots of ups and downs on the way. I've had three jobs running simultaneously plus other bits and bobs on the side. I still do various things for people to help pay the bills.

Every single flight means something, so if this route doesn't lead me into a flying job in the long term, I won't be bitter or consider myself to have wasted anything. I'm not owed anything by the industry. But at least I'll be there in the mix if something does come up.

Btw I am no spring chicken, being more than twice as old as some of the newbies posting on here.

Final thoughts - if you really want something, you'll get it no matter how many people doomsay it. If you do manage to get it, well you deserve it. If you don't, well at least you had the self-respect to try. And if you didn't think it was worth trying, then you got what you deserved too.

It's not for everyone and there are plenty of sacrifices to make on the way. For those who've made some quite massive sacrifices, the end justifies the means and the sacrifice is worth it. If it isn't worth it, then you shouldn't be doing it. That's not to be rude, it's just saying that maybe you don't want it as much as you think you do, and that's okay. Your priorities are what matter, not anyone else's.

airpolice

10th Mar 2012, 10:26

Ghengis the engineer wrote:
but I suspect that AL really wanted to change a nation, abolish slavery, and be remembered for what he'd done

Actually Lincoln was not against slavery, he was against the South becoming trade independent of the Northern States. It suited his campaign to be seen as the good guy but he really was just another politician. Go to DC and look at the Memorial. That kind of thing takes money, which means the power to use other people's money.

The Abraham Lincoln cause was no more about slavery that the civil war was. It was about money.

119.35

10th Mar 2012, 10:50

FWJC - well done! Now that is commitment and exactly why you will make it and Midiman will not.

To quote Midiman:
''It's like being a Pilot and being asked to serve the passengers tea on full pay.'

A while ago, wasn't there a class of Flybe MPLs that graduated and worked as cabin crew for a while?

'The economy is messed up and managers are trying to restructure peolple to do all sorts.

I,m not exactly sure what my job is anymore.

I turn up to earn money while life passes me by.'

Not wishing to be too harsh, but it sounds as though you are lucky to have any type of job. What are you trying to achieve by coming onto pprune and whinging about how tough life is and how you can't afford to train!? Pity, motivation, what??

If you want motivation read carefully what FWJC and others wrote. And then re-read what FWJC wrote again. That's the level of determination needed and what it takes to succeed. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

I fear that all the good stuff on this thread will be a wasted on the OP, but its brought out a great story by FWJC which is to be applauded.

Come on Midiman, show some fight. At least then you can say you gave it a go!

inner

10th Mar 2012, 10:56

At the end of this year i will lose my flying job. That's already for sure. I'm already applying but without any result. So even if you have experience, it is almost mission impossible to find something (the typerating thing is a serious obstacle) I probably will study something else because i don't want to search again another 2 years of my short life, for a flying job. Yes gentlemen, this is also reality of an "experienced" pilot.

wingreencard

10th Mar 2012, 11:10

yes, most schemes in the USA are "Illegal".

there is no scheme under part 121.They tried, but the FAA said NO!
the othere schemes are under 135, but not for captain.

the only schemes remaining are authorized for copilot on 1 pilot plane (????).
these hours don't really count. (grey law!)you can sit in the right sit of a c172, and logg copilot time in part 135. it s a joke!it's a scam!worth nothing!

outside of the USA, the fault is from our legislators who give you a license,and then say you can join an airline and pay them (???). These airlines are not flight school as far as I know .

anyway they stab us since these last 3 years and it' s not going to stop!in my point of view, this profession has absolutely no future.

Genghis the Engineer

10th Mar 2012, 11:52

Ghengis the engineer wrote:

Actually Lincoln was not against slavery, he was against the South becoming trade independent of the Northern States. It suited his campaign to be seen as the good guy but he really was just another politician. Go to DC and look at the Memorial. That kind of thing takes money, which means the power to use other people's money.

The Abraham Lincoln cause was no more about slavery that the civil war was. It was about money.

Okay, fair - he abolished slavery to win the civil war, and fought the civil war to keep the nation united. And I'm sure he got into the game to achieve some degree of personal immortality.

So far as I can see however, he still succeeded in what he set out to do.

G

Teddy Robinson

10th Mar 2012, 12:46

I also came the cleaning planes, doing other jobs route. In hindsight, when I finally gained my PPL, I had no real ambition to sit at the pointy end of a holiday jet, it was (and is) my passion, my hobby, and now my profession.
It never was the be all and end all: I added the normal ratings over the years, got to fly some of the interesting machines that I kept looking pretty, worked in ATC at my local airfield, built hours, had a good time, met some great people .. and ran out of ratings to do as a private pilot ... that and a rule change for instructors meant a CPL .... and so on.

Others on the same path took part time jobs on the airfield .. refuelling, working in the restaurant .. whatever it took to make ends meet, and most importantly .. form a network !!

It's this cultural disconnection of the PTF wannabe that is perhaps most disturbing, not just because they miss out on the cultural aspect of aviation, but where is their network ? .. which leads to the question ... and what is their motivation ? ...

Put simply ... get involved, and don't support the notion that "sign here and you will be magically transformed into a creature of the skies" is anything but a marketing line from people who will happily relieve you of large amounts of cash.

I watched this scenario unfold ... friend said he wants to be a pilot, what I suggested was to take his time, and keep his full time job, work through the ratings at his his own pace, then I have some good contacts in the exec-jet business I would introduce him to. He didn't, and now having re-mortgaged the family home to hand over to an assortment of "US based UK schools" and a TRTO now has a shiny F/ATPL complete with shiny-jet rating to look at on the mantle-piece.

It's a very sad thing, doubly so when most of the experience of arriving at that destination is in the journey itself.

rmcb

10th Mar 2012, 13:01

I was loathe to change the thread topic so radically to the subject of Abe., but I agree wholeheartedly with airpolice. So I shan't mention the adoption of Jim Crow laws and the enforcement of ancient anti-miscegeny laws.

Oh, and that it was Repulicans, not Democrats who espoused the notion of pushing civil rights forward. All successful politicians are inveteret liars. Without exception, IMHO. Even honest Abe.

I still believe the OP should go for the PPL/IR option and see how it goes.

FANS

13th Mar 2012, 11:21

The bigger question is what is the dream?

To fly RHS A320? That's very achievable

If however you want to fly an airliner:
a) within the UK
b) on a decent salary
c) with some job security
d) without paying a massive amount in training/TR fees
e) being treat well and respected by management

then forget it.

Gentle Climb

13th Mar 2012, 11:58

If you want to write off a flying career at 36 then fair enough, but do so having given it everything. There are other opportunities out there but they don't just drop in to your lap...you might need to do some legwork.

I started training at the age of 39, mainly because I would have hated myself for not at least having a go. I did an integrated course that I completed to a good standard, apparently well above the average. I then watched all of my classmates find employment with the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet, Bmibaby, BMIR and Jet2. I didn't get a sniff at any of these. I didn't expect to really. I sent hundreds of CV's to anybody remotely connected to an airline, with little in the way of positive reply...in fact a reply was a bonus!

I was fortunate that I had managed (just) to keep my business running whilst I did the course and I had some income that has got me through financially. After 18 months of searching it would have been very easy to give up. It is a tough time, really, really hard. However, I wasn't ready to give up and decided that repeating the CV sending process wasn't going to change the result, so I got in the car and hand delivered my CV to companies, starting at my local airfield/s with personal covering letters. It is hard 'cold calling' and the reaction from reception staff ranged from friendly and helpful, to fairly abusive. You harden up pretty quickly to be fair, just smile, thank them and walk on.

Then, out of the blue my phone rang with a call from a withheld number. Having had about 5 cold calls asking me if I wanted to to 'reclaim my mortgage payment cover' that day, I very nearly didn't answer. The caller identified himself as the CP of one of the companies that I had called upon. We had a chat and we agreed to meet. We got on pretty well and kept in contact. There wasn't a position available at the time but very soon there will be and whilst nothing is signed, things are moving forward and I am confident that I will start with the company in a few months time. The job won't involve Boeing, Airbus or Embraer but suits me very well and I would guess that the overall package is going to better than than most of my course colleagues.

Sorry if this is long winded, I just wanted you to see that there are options out there but as an older candidate the jobs won't come to you. You need to play to your strengths and remove yourself from the hoarde of 225 hour youngsters. You will certainly need to be very resilient. if you want it that badly...you just need to adapt.

corsair

13th Mar 2012, 13:05

Gentle climb's story is a good exampe of how networking works.

My story, before I start this is no sob story, put away those violins. I loved every minute of the flying. I started at 18 with my first week's wages. An hour's flying cost me more than a week's pay. I was a tad over ambitious really but at that point I believed there was still a chance of a military career or a sponsored cadetship. That never happened and it took me years to get a PPL. The frustration quotient was very high. Kept plugging away though and borrowed heavily. But it was hard going and eventually I got my CPL/IR aged 35 thanks to a large redundancy payment from a hated job.

Things fell apart a bit after that and I ended up out of flying and in debt with expired licences and ratings. I was on the point of giving up on several levels when I met the woman who is now my wife. She encouraged me back into flying. After a bit of a struggle I got my CPL back with the intention of finishing my Instructor's rating.

But one day I noticed a post on an internet forum from someone looking for a CPL to fly for his operation. I emailed him without much confidence.

A few days later after a phone call with the guy. I came downstairs to my wife and made an announcement I never thought I would make. 'I've just been offered a job as a pilot'.

(Clearly that was provisional on my being up to standard, but I had no worries about that)

I was 46.

BTW and shockingly I was the only person who answered his post. Think about that, all you people who think it's impossible to get a job and here was one for the taking and no one replied except me.

Ok the job wasn't the greatest in the world, the pay is terrible, the hours long and the prospects slim. But I fly for a living so that's something.

So was it all worth it? Actually no. If I'd put the same effort into any number of careers I would be financially better off today and probably would have my own aeroplane or at least a share in one.

If I gave up flying tomorrow. I would miss it but not as much as I thought. Ironic really.

So there you are. A lesson in never giving up but also a strong lesson in being careful what you wish for.

I probably should never have become a pilot. Bit of a mistake really. :ugh:

HelipadR22

13th Mar 2012, 13:52

Funny really, this advert was right alongside the thread so I thought I would post the link:

Flybe Part Sponsored and Mentored Cadetship (http://www.pilottrainingcollege.com/FlybeProgrammeIntroduction.aspx)

I'm 34, work in IT. Just about to start an NPPL course (after April it should entitle me to fly all over Europe). Decided to go the Microlite route, then onto SEP and slowly build up to a PPL(A) and onto FI. Which again with EASA you no longer need to be a CPL (If it all goes through).

Why NPPL? Simple. Finances, I can get my NPPL on something like an Icarus C32 in 25 Hours (£105 PH). Then do a few hours in a C152 to get the SEP rating. Build up hours by flying mates about for fun whilst getting the odd hour in Dual and just keep plodding on. Not the most direct route but it gets me flying on a budget.

FANS

13th Mar 2012, 14:04

corsair - great post.

Helipad - just remember to budget for more than minimum hours, especially if doing things at weekends

kirungi1

13th Mar 2012, 14:37

Dear Sir,

What an inspiration? It's this sort of thing that makes this forum what it is really. I'm thrilled by your post and especially your determination to succeed. Alot would easily say bla bla hard work pays but here it is written and practically witnessed, well done and thank you.

Can I burden you more perhaps for my future guidance. I have always thought that if I have to earn my wings, especially that I'm not from the EU & Americas, then I have to complete my aerospace engineering course here in England then join say BA engineering etc as a airworthiness engineer or something in that line.

And you quite bring it out in your post when you had to do your PhD which held it reall for me. Though I'm in bits struggling to finance my university, if you would mention where you attended your PhD so I could research further along that line.

I put my hat off for you, no wonder 9,300s of posts of wisdon and hope one day to righteously follow closely in your steps.

Again thank you.