UK's "Greatest Ally"

[HTB]

I listened to a Radio 4 programme last night that purpoted to have new evidence of conplicity between France and Argentina during the Falklands war. There were some very squirmy, and doubtless uncomfortable, interviews with a variety of participants. I guess we sort of suspected some collusion at the time, but this programme has shed some more light on the subject.

The crux of it was: French technicians were assisting the Argentines in maintaining a serviceable weapon system - Exocet - despite a declared embargo (by the French president) that no assistance or materiel should be made available.

This resulted in some robust views beind aired, including a u-turn by the then Defence Secretary, John Nott.

"Former defence secretary John Nott wrote in his memoirs that France was Britain's "greatest ally" during the conflict, but slammed the nation after being presented with new evidence."

"We asked (former French president Francois) Mitterrand not to give assistance to the Argentinians,"

"If you're asking me: 'Are the French duplicitous people?' the answer is: 'Of course they are, and they always have been'," he added (I like that turn of phrase:D).

The (technical) team, which mainly worked for a company 51 percent owned by the French government, helped Argentina fix faulty missile launchers, group leader Herve Colin admitted in 1982, but French officials interviewed by the BBC denied they were aware of the team's activities (well, they would say that, wouldn't they).

Colin admitted in a 1982 interview with The Times that technicians located the faults which were preventing the launchers from firing, adding that "the rest was easy", in apparent contravention of Mitterrand's embargo on French arms sales and assistance to Argentina.

The French foriegn intelligence service say they knew about the team's presence, but that they were using them as an intelligence gathering source on the Argentine army.

With friends like these...

Mister B

[racedo]

The idea that the French Govt at a political level would know everything that is happening is a fallacy. Lets face it would you believe that UK govt would know everything UK companies are doing overseas, even those who they have a shareholding in.

BAE was sending stuff via Turkey to Indonesia which was being used again East Timorese when UK Govt was opposed to what Indonesia was doing.

Problem with intelligence services is that they think and are allowed do what they like. Spycatcher wasn't a work of fiction.

[Whenurhappy]

RAcedo,

Unfortunately, much of Spycatcher was a work of fiction. I cite as evidence Chris Andrew's 'Defence of the Realm'.

[RedhillPhil]

It was Horatio Nelson who declared that, "it is the duty of every Englishman to kill as many Frenchmen as possible".
Don't forget that historically, Portugal is England's oldest ally.
Governments are like higher management, most of 'em haven't a clue what the workers are up to, they're just suspicious.

[HTB]

Pierre Lethier (former chief of staff of the DGSE -- France's foreign intelligence agency) denied that Paris knew of the team's activities, saying that they "bordered on an act of treason, or disobedience to an embargo.
"It's clear that if the head of state in France decrees an embargo, it's an embargo. Full point."

Francois Heisbourg, who at the time was international security adviser to the French minister of defence, Charles Hernou, expressed regret over the incident.

"It is now undeniable and . . . one should not belittle it," he told the BBC.

It was probably undeniable at the time as well, but they (the government) seem to have manged to distance themselves. One would have thought that with an embargo in place, some inkling of what was happening on the ground would (via the DGSE) would have filtered back to the policy and decision makers: as the man said above "bordered on an act of treason, or disobedience to an embargo."

Mister B

[ORAC]

Plausible Deniability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability) :hmm:

[chopper2004]

Hmmmmm two lines of thought here spring to mind

1) The French engineers (Aerospatiale) could have put some bugs into the Exocets so as when war comes around, a push of a button and they fail.

Unfortunately HMS Sheffield, the Atlantic Conveyor has put that theory out though another question beckons and

- How many Exocets were in the Armada's inventory at the time?

- Out of the above number, how many were fired (let alone the few which unfortunately struck the two vessels) and actually worked?

2) Better to know the devil, if you supply weapons to said unfriendly state, I suppose the reasoning is you know whats on the table and how to deal with it. Say if a bad guy purchases hardware not around or known to the west, then it be difficult to figure a way of counteracting it perhaps?

My uncles on my fathers side both served during the conflict on HMS Invincible and HMS Hermes.

Cheers

[Evanelpus]

Are the French duplicitous

This almost caused me to have an asthma attack. I've dealt with many French people over the years and I can honestly say that (in business) I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

Sorry if that upsets you but it's a fact:*

[racedo]

The French engineers (Aerospatiale) could have put some bugs into the Exocets so as when war comes around, a push of a button and they fail.

Unfortunately HMS Sheffield, the Atlantic Conveyor has put that theory out though another question beckons and

If all fail then you assume an internal spy and that kills any further sales worldwide, much as everybody might like it there is no chance France would sacrifice its arms industry for UK, nor would I believe UK do likewise.

Sadly its not unknown for Govts to sacrifice men and machines for a greater percieved strategic purpose.

Selling or supplying to anybody has always blowback potential be it the stingers supplied to Mudja's in Afghanistan fighting the Russkis or anything supplied to the Mid East.

[Octane]

UK's greatest allies are the Australians, Canadians, Gurkas, New Zealanders, South Africans etc

All my Grandfathers generation fought in WWII for the motherland, he spent 3 years in Germany as a guest of the 3rd Reich.

And last month I had to line up for over an hour at Heathrow immigration after 30 hours on the go, with the masses from who knows where, to get through immigration because I did'nt have a UK or Euro passport?
Grandad rolled in his grave..............

[Herod]

I think it was De Gaulle who said "France does not have allies; it has interests". Having said that, he did us a favour when he vetoed our joining the Common Market. Shame it wasn't a permanent veto.

[Archimedes]

This would be very interesting new evidence - had it not been first put into the public domain by Tam Dayell in November 1982 (and repeated and expanded upon in Commons debates/ministerial questions in 1983 and 1984).

If you look at Dayell's interventions (and the Isabel Hilton interview) you're left wondering if the BBC journalist considers Hansard and the Sunday Times Insight Team's work to be secret documents...

As well as not being quite the scoop the Beeb want us to think, I have to say that whatever you think of the French (and, to quote Jim Hacker, who doesn't), the apparent attempt to suggest French official duplicity over the arms embargo seems unfair.

Herod - if De Gaulle said that, he was merely closely paraphrasing Viscount Palmerston's position on Britain's attitude towards alliances and friendships.

[Marcantilan]

Chopper, about Exocet launchs.

Argentina had, back in 1982, 5 AM-39 and 50+ MM-38 Exocet Missiles.

The five AM-39s were fired. One (1) hit HMS Sheffield, two (2) STUFT Atlantic Conveyor and the others two (2) the water (some Argentine sources speculated about one of those hit HMS Invincible)

None of the MM-38 were fired from any ship. One of the systems was dismantled and then armed near islands. Four missiles were carried. Of those, one didn´t launch, other launched and maybe is still flying and the third hit HMS Glamorgan. The fourth missile was discovered by Brit forces still there.

About the embargo. About arms sales.

French / German and Israel technicians were at the islands (an before that, in mainland), during the actual bombing, help fixing some missile and comms systems. Why? Publicity for the good reability of weapons systems. War is bussiness for some people, specially the people not dying.

About this topic, the Aerospatiale crew left the mainland before clearing the SuE to launch Exocets. Argentine technicians completed the work.

Regards!

[Cornerstone958]

Currently reading'The Secret War for the Falklands' Nigel West
ISBN 0-316-88226-7 my copy printed in 1997 no idea if the book is still in print.
CS

[orca]

Before we go too overboard on the French...

Didn't someone supply the Argentines with HMS Sheffield's sister ships? (One sold, one made under licence I think..)

I can only assume the remote controlled bath plugs designed to scuttle them in hostilities didn't work?

[Pontius Navigator]

orca, are you sure? What part did they play?

There was perhaps also the little matter of Mer el Kebir.

[ShyTorque]

Right! who was selling them the batteries for those missiles? Let's get them extradited, with no bail granted......

As if... :ugh:

[iRaven]

Whilst we're at it, why not think about GW2? There were Roland missile rounds less than 6 months old discovered around SAM batteries in Iraq by Coalition ground forces - no wonder the French and Germans didn't want to play! :eek:

I know because I saw the pictures of the rounds with clear dates of manufacture printed on them.

I am lost for words why our Govt wants stronger ties with France - they are, after all, our natural enemy (the Govt and the French :E)

Wakners the lot of them...:*

iRaven

[TEEEJ]

Radio 4 programme at following link.

BBC iPlayer - Document: 05/03/2012 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b01cvkg4)

[Samuel]

Not forgetting French duplicity in New Zealand in 1985 when, as a friend and ally of NZ, allegedly, they sank a Greenpeace ship moored in Auckland.The sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, codenamed Opération Satanique, was an operation by the "action" branch of the French foreign intelligence services, the Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure (DGSE), carried out on July 10, 1985. It aimed to sink the flagship of the Greenpeace fleet, the Rainbow Warrior in the port of Auckland, New Zealand, to prevent her from interfering in a nuclear test in Moruroa.

Fernando Pereira, a photographer, drowned on the sinking ship. Two French agents were arrested by the New Zealand Police on passport fraud and immigration charges. They were charged with arson, conspiracy to commit arson, willful damage, and murder. As part of a plea bargain, they pleaded guilty to manslaughter and were sentenced to ten years in prison, of which they served just over two.
The scandal resulted in the resignation of the French Defence Minister Charles Hernu.

[TEEEJ]

iRaven wrote

I know because I saw the pictures of the rounds with clear dates of manufacture printed on them.

That was a mix up between Polish forces disposings of the Rolands and the Iraqi own marking of the missile containers. The Polish disposal team snipped off the manufacturer tags before the missiles were destroyed and showed that they were a batch from 1983. The Iraqi's at the Al Kindi Establishment had checked/tested the missiles and applied their own markings to the missile cases leading to the confusion. An example of the Iraqi markings was 05/11 KND 2002.

Roland Missile Iraq | Poland Apologizes to France for Missile Mix-Up by Soldiers in Iraq - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2003/oct/05/world/fg-missiles5)

Poland Apologizes to France for Missile Mix-Up by Soldiers in Iraq

Weapons could not have been produced this year, Paris says. Warsaw orders an investigation.

October 05, 2003

WARSAW — Poland apologized to France on Saturday for saying its troops had found advanced French-made missiles in Iraq that had been produced this year.

The report sparked criticism from French President Jacques Chirac, who said it was incorrect and had been drawn up without proper checks.

Neither Polish nor French authorities denied that the Roland-type antiaircraft weapons were found near the Iraqi town of Hillah, south of Baghdad, in a zone controlled by the Polish-led military force.

"I apologized to France for this information, which had been issued without my authorization," said Polish Defense Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski, adding that an investigation had been ordered.

He said Polish troops were likely to have interpreted the 2003 inscription on the missiles as the year of their production. "And this could have been, for example, the date up to which they are fit to be used," he said.

The Defense Ministry said Friday that Polish troops in Iraq had discovered four French-made Roland missiles, which are part of short-range air defense systems in many countries including France and Germany.

A Polish Defense Ministry spokesman said the missiles were manufactured in 2003, but the French Foreign Ministry promptly denied that, saying production of the most modern Roland 3 rocket ended in 1993.

Production of the Roland 2, the type most recently sent to Iraq, ended in 1988, a French Foreign Ministry spokesman said. The Roland 3 was never exported to Iraq, the ministry said.

"There could not be any 2003 missiles because those missiles have not been manufactured for 15 years," Chirac told a news conference at a European Union summit in Rome.

"I believe the Polish soldiers have created confusion that could have been avoided with thorough verification," he said, adding that he had made the point to Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller "in a friendly but frank and firm way."

The spat briefly sent France's relations with Poland, the biggest of 10 countries set to join the EU next year, to fresh lows after Chirac criticized Warsaw for supporting the U.S.-led war in Iraq, some diplomats said.

But a senior French diplomatic source told reporters that after the Polish apology, "France was satisfied and the issue was clarified."

Iraq tested Roland systems in war preparation - Jane's Missiles and Rockets (http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Missiles-And-Rockets-2003/Iraq-tested-Roland-systems-in-war-preparation.html)

Prior to the US-led invasion of Iraq, the Al Kindi Establishment north of Mosul seems to have conducted large-scale inspections and tests of various missiles delivered to Iraq during the 1980s by Aerospatiale, writes Grzegorz Holdanowicz. Sources have suggested that missiles were checked immediately prior to being delivered to Iraqi combat units before the start of hostilities.

Markings found on Roland-2 missile canisters recovered by the occupation forces suggest these inspections were carried out during 2002 and early 2003, dates which led to speculation that France had been supplying Iraq with Roland missiles manufactured in those years.

I still have this info on a notepad from 2003 after watching the Polish forces video.

The Polish demolition team snipped off the tags from the ROLANDS before they were destroyed by controlled explosion. From the video footage:

".. SOCIETE NATIONAL INDUSTRIELLE
CONSTRUCTION DE TARBES
REFERENCE SNIAS No 969446
DESIGNATION GIAT ATS F5316
NO DE SERIE B + V 176
MASSE 960
DATE 11.7.83
CONTROLE MA12"

During 2003 the French Ministry released the following in reference to the 2002 stencils found on the first batch of Rolands.

We confirm in particular that there was no export of Roland missiles or parts to Iraq after 1990. The marking cited by Newsweek (05/11 KND 2002) does not correspond to markings used by the French MBDA company on these missiles.

[The B Word]

Teeej

And you trust the word of Chirac...

BBC News - French ex-President Jacques Chirac guilty of corruption (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16194089)

Next you'll be telling us Jeffrey Archer told you it was not true...:ugh:

The B Word

[Courtney Mil]

It's interresting stuff, but I have to say, we knew this when we were south of the equator in 1982. Seriously, we knew. Actually I think there is more to it than the BBC has revealed. But then, we've been traditional enemies for centuries, even if we are cousins.

Perhaps, though, we would do well, and so would France, to make each other best buddies. We could learn a lot from each other and we would do better in Europe and on the global stage if we worked together.

UK's greatest allies are the Australians, Canadians, Gurkas, New Zealanders, South Africans etc Right!

[jwcook]

I worked for a electrical engineering company during the Falklands war, we had several rush jobs for the Rapier systems.

We also have a few small generators sets being crated for Argentinean warships, when the embargo came in that order was stopped, by sheer luck a similar order came in for Brazil for the exact same type and quantity of generators within the week :ugh:. which was apparently all fine and dandy and were sent despite my concerns.

[TEEEJ]

https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/chap2_annxJ.html

Possible Breaches of UN Sanctions by French Companies

2002-2003: Iraq’s MIC May Have Attempted To Procure French Roland Missile Parts
A source related that Iraq attempted to acquire battlefield and air defense technology 25 days before the onset of OIF.

Beginning in late December 2002, the Iraqi MIC initiated efforts to acquire replacement parts for the Roland II surface to air missile system, valves for Iraq’s air defense system, and various other high technology items with military and battlefield applications. These efforts were underway up until 23 days before the onset of hostilities. The MIC Commercial Section corresponded with Majda Khasem Al-Khalil (a Lebanese female) who in turn met directly with the French Thompson Company regarding the acquisition of the missile parts. Al-Khalil later provided samples of night vision goggles and protective Kevlar devices to the MIC. The paragraphs below describe the development of this effort as portrayed from the Iraqi side.

On 25 December 2002, a high level MIC official requested permission to acquire ‘hard cables’ for Iraq’s air defense headquarters. The MIC official supplied Al-Khalil, Sour Debbar, and Dr. Awad Al-Souri as points of contact capable of supplying these materials. Al-Khalil was described as “the Lebanese.”

On 22 February 2003, Ra’ed Ismail Jamil, General Manager of the Salahadin General Company, and a Brigadier General Hassem discussed the purchase of parts for the Roland II system with Al-Khalil. A communication sent the same day by Jamil and Hassem notified the MIC Deputy Minister that, based on his orders, they invited Al-Khalil to reach “clear and final agreements” regarding subjects already discussed and that they had arranged for her safe passage with border control.

During a meeting with Jamil and Brigadier Hassem, Al-Khalil mentioned that she met with French experts regarding to rehabilitating Iraqi Roland II parts. Al-Khalil had learned from those experts that it was not possible to rehabilitate those parts due to their deteriorated state, but it was possible to provide 50 new parts at the same price to repair the old ones. The 50 new parts met the same technical specifications the Iraqi MIC stated for the old parts. Al-Khalil informed Jamil and Hassem that she provided the French experts with technical questions and designs. The aforementioned experts addressed the questions and designs “thoroughly, clearly, and completely.”

On the evening of 22 February 2003, Al-Khalil promised to have the new components within ready 30 days of the ministry’s acceptance of the contract. Al-Khalil further agreed to ship the old Iraqi parts back to Baghdad without repair. The MIC assumed responsibility for the transportation and movement of the parts through Iraqi customs. The Ministry believed that they could use internal components from the old parts as spare parts in the future.
Al-Khalil further stated she was ready to import “set valves from either types, 12 sets of each at $250,000” as requested by the MIC Deputy Minister.

A-Khalil agreed to deliver these items within 10 days of signing of an agreement. She further mentioned that “the French side” was ready to implement this agreement and take care of the documentation process regarding shipping and warranty certification, but that she would need some money to cover this process. Al-Khalil stated she was ready to provide a bond accepted from the Iraqi side towards a down payment and she provided complete specifications for both sets of valves.

[Samuel]

Originally posted by Octane.

UK's greatest allies are the Australians, Canadians, Gurkas, New Zealanders, South Africans etc

Hmmm...dunno about the truth of that any more. Since the UK dumped us in 1975 I suspect the current generations view the UK somewhat differently!

[iRaven]

Courtney

Perhaps, though, we would do well, and so would France, to make each other best buddies. We could learn a lot from each other and we would do better in Europe and on the global stage if we worked together

You must be having a laugh, old boy! :}

The French shafted us on Typhoon (joined in at the start, told us they must have what they want, stole the R&D and then b^ggered off and built Rafale), likewise Tornado (which became their Mirage 2000 in the end for them), they nearly pulled the plug on Concorde for having no "e" on the end, they shafted us in the FIs and they'll be shafting us for the Anglo-French Scavenger stuff. They pulled out of Southern Watch massively early for no apparent reason and then we find weapons with dubious dates of manufacture on them (Teeej, sorry buddy but I don't buy the Polish story because a few days later the UK got some concessions from France and Germany on another matter and then the Polish story floats to the surface - or maybe I must stop believing Elvis is in Area 51?!).

Nope, they're no good and will shaft us at the soonest opporunity, in my humble opinion.

iRaven

[shedhead]

and there is the small matter of the shipborne guidance systems for the Exocet as well of course.
built by Thorn EMI at a small factory in Staffordshire.

[Corporal Clott]

2003: MAS Economic Group Facilitates French Military Sales Catalogue Dissemination
An internal GMID memo from Lt. Col. Imad Salih dated 13 January 2003, refers to a Syrian MAS Economic Group letter with 5 attached CDs and catalogues from a French expert named Eric Joubert. The Syrian Company was facilitating the supply of the French technology. The documents contained information and equipment lists of interest to the GMID directorate and the Iraqi intelligence service. Joubert expressed his wish to visit Iraq to give more details about the CDs and catalogues.

Supply the Iraqis...you must be mistaken monsieur...

:hmm:

[Courtney Mil]

iRaven,

Yeah, I know you're right. My big idea is that somehow France and Britain could act like grown ups that share a slightly shady, distant uncle and get our act together. I know it's a pipe dream. But imagine what we could do if we were truly allies.

[TEEEJ]

The B Word wrote

And you trust the word of Chirac...

In this case it was a genuine mix-up by the Polish Defence Ministry. The claim was in reference to new-build Rolands being discovered in Iraq. The Polish troops found at least two caches of Rolands and the Polish Defence Ministry stated that they were new-builds from 2003. Polish troops in Iraq have found four French-built advanced anti-aircraft missiles which were built this year, a Polish Defence Ministry spokesman said overnight

Polish troops discovered an ammunition depot on Sept. 29 near the region of Hilla and there were four French-made Roland-type missiles," Defense Ministry spokesman Eugeniusz Mleczak said.

It is not the first time Polish troops found ammunition in Iraq but to our surprise these missiles were produced in 2003.

POLISH TROOPS FIND NEW FRENCH MISSILES IN IRAQ (http://www.lbouza.net/reut.htm)

It was the Iraqi stencils on Roland 2s that caused the confusion.

Polish troops also filmed the second Roland cache before they were destroyed.

I found a further notepad of what this video contained. In the footage a Polish soldier is holding up several metal tags with the manufacturer SNIAS.
One of the tags has SOCIETE NATIONALE INDUSTRIELLE AEROSPATIALE F4992
3 84.

At the time the images of the missile tubes with the Iraqi stencils were widely published. One read 07-01 KND 2003 - 0389

Update. Some screen grabs from the Polish video.

http://www.cfpeople.org/military/070404/fae9e708.jpg

http://www.cfpeople.org/military/070404/fae9e70c.jpg

[Teddy Robinson]

Just read an excellent book entitled 1000 years of annoying the French, by Stephen Clarke .. highly recommended :E

[boguing]

Quick reply. And proof that I've brung my kids up properly.

Discussed that documentary over dinner in Surrey's best restaurant this evening.

15 yo son. 'What's the difference between toast and soldiers?'






'You can make French toast'.




19 yo daughter even more profound, in her area. Fashion design. You might laugh, but I'll get her to chip in vis WWII and Paris.

[tucumseh]

iRaven

I tend to agree. In the early 90s MoD(PE) project managers had a lot of explaining to do if at least one French company was not on the tender list for every contract. The paperwork for Contracts Branch even had a section for you to explain why France was omitted. Not any other country, just France. Many a contract was delayed because the answer “The IPR is owned by XYZ Ltd(UK), no-one else can make it, it’s UK Eyes only etc” being deemed not good enough. There was no reciprocal agreement that we were aware of.



By 1996 they were being awarded contracts without even bidding, even though we’d had to waste time and money going through the motions of competition (which costs the losers a fortune).



Perhaps the peak of this madness came in 1999 when our esteemed Chief of Defence Procurement actually deemed it an offence not to cancel an existing contract with a UK company, which was on the point of completion (ahead of time, under cost and better performance), because a certain French company had opined “We could have done that”. He ruled that the contract should have been immediately cancelled and awarded to the French without competition, which would have wasted £XXM, cost us damages, delayed ISD by 6 years – and judging by their past performance they would have walked away saying “too difficult” anyway. Years later, Ministers and PUS still quote that ruling.

[paull]

The scandal resulted in the resignation of the French Defence Minister Charles Hernu.

It also coincided with the appearance of large quantities of NZ lamb on sale in french supermarkets, something that had previously been excluded as a protectionist measure. I guess there was more to the plea bargain than saw the light of day.

[alwayslookingup]

Heaven is where:-

The British are the cops,
The Germans make the cars,
The French do the cooking.

Hell is where:-

The Germans are the cops,
The British do the cooking,
The French make the cars.

[Bubblewindow]

I recently spoke to an Ex-French Navy Super Etendard pilot who was tasked with training the Argentinians to fly their aircraft and deploy the Exocet.
After that another, tasking was to fly dissimilar air combat with FAA Shars!!!!
How ironic is that????*

*Don't know how true it is!

BW

[Teddy Robinson]

Re the dissimilar combat vs Shars, that was mentioned in afore mentioned book, appears that S/E , a mirage, and some Exocets were discretely loaned for evaluation.

[Dengue_Dude]

Spycatcher was such a work of fiction that HMG bust a gut to stop Peter Wright from printing it . . .

I had to get my copy from an American friend (an A-10 driver).

Of course, the UK government historically have always been pillars of integrity - NEVER duplicit.

Personally, I admire the French, they are not afraid to promote all things French and don't apologise for it.

[Wander00]

Thousand Years of Annoying the French - brilliant book - even the French lady who runs my language class here in France thinks so.

[Wensleydale]

Thousand Years of Annoying the French


The wife wanted a Scented Tart Burner for her birthday... I was reminded of Joan of Arc.

[Herod]

Aren't we supposed to be sharing a carrier with the French now? I should imagine they'd be delighted to lend it to us if the Falklands ever become a war zone again. Oh, and since we haven't any carrier-capable aircraft, they'll have to do the fighting as well. Oh, and the cheque's in the post, and of course I'll respect you in the morning. :rolleyes:

[Samuel]

A fair point Dengue

Of course, the UK government historically have always been pillars of integrity - NEVER duplicit.



At the time of the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, there was an intimation floating around that British Intelligence knew what the French were up to, but didn't tell the NZ authorities! Of course the French were allies at that, as were the Americans of course, whereas NZ was nuclear-free...still is!

[glojo]

I seriously do not see what all the fuss is about, is it such a big deal and where do we think our enemies get their weapons from?

Instead of crying over things we have no control of, why not simply make sure we lock our own stable doors before the horses ride off over the horizon. This very small example highlights what we could do if we wanted, but clearly there is no money to be made if we enforce a genuine embargo:

I worked for a electrical engineering company during the Falklands war, we had several rush jobs for the Rapier systems.

We also have a few small generators sets being crated for Argentinean warships, when the embargo came in that order was stopped, by sheer luck a similar order came in for Brazil for the exact same type and quantity of generators within the week :ugh:. which was apparently all fine and dandy and were sent despite my concerns. Just how good was the exocet missile against our battle group?

Sheffield was very sadly caught with its pants down and sailors with their hands in their pockets! (apologies for being so blunt but that ship was on radar picket duty, note the emphasis on the word radar) she was MORE than capable of evading the incoming threat.

Atlantic Conveyor was not even the original target of the missiles that hit her, she was very sadly a merchant ship in the wrong place at the wrong time. RESPECT to those brave Merchant seaman that served Queen and country in such a gallant manner.

The less said about the Glamorgan fiasco the better but that ship was in the WRONG place, it should NOT have been in that very specific area, in fact it might just as well have painted a large 'bulls eye' on its side.

The French sold the missiles to Argentina and no doubt part of that deal was a degree of training, maintenance etc. that's life and we all know this goes on.

Afghanistan.
How many of the so called 'Taliban' are during the day are either members of the countries police force or army? We pay them, we train them, we arm them and then a number of these people either desert, do not turn up, or play soldiers during the day and then during the hours of darkness they repay us by planting bombs or commit a thousand and one other acts of insurgency. Surely this is far more of an issue compared to an event that happened three decades ago?

At least the French are taking part in most of the ongoing operations and respect to them for that...

Have we noticed how some of them cannot, or will not speak English!!!:sad:

[Marcantilan]

Some hard data:

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3364/54598855.jpg
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6499/22332836.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1613/14959424.jpg

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8391/68035944.jpg

Ref: Glojo, SS Atlantic Conveyor was the target for the SuE´s on May 25. At the time she had the biggest RCS and was selected for this cause.

Regards!

[HTB]

I wonder if they had a codeword akin to the Bucc's "bananas, bananas" for tgt acquisition?

Something along the lines of "empanadas, empanadas" perhaps.

Mister B

[glojo]

Hi Marcantilan,
I do not want to get into semantics regarding who shot what, when and how, bottom line was that the Atlantic Conveyor was sunk by Exocet fired by some VERY brave Argentine pilots. However prior to striking the Conveyor they had first locked onto one of the screening frigates.. HMS Ambuscade. This frigate quite rightly took evasive action including the firing of CHAFF. This action broke the lock of the incoming threat. Unfortunately once past the Ambuscade the missiles then locked onto Atlantic Conveyor.

The vulnerable ships of any Battle Group are protected for a reason and I am not disputing Conveyor was hit and hopefully you will accept that Ambuscade diverted the incoming attacks? The capital ships along with other valuable assets are not the first targets an incoming threat will see, they are quite rightly protected by numerous layers of defence including the screening warships.

There have been all sorts of claims regarding Exocet and the targets it allegedly hit or did not hit but the bottom line to me is that you cannot silence a whole ships company and you will find numerous references to this attack all of which will confirm the above account.

I am in NO WAY belittling that attack and the sinking of that merchant ship was most certainly a huge blow that destroyed an awful lot of much needed equipment... It was a war and both sides lost a lot of very brave young men.

[racedo]

It was a war and both sides lost a lot of very brave young men.

Agree :D

Sadly nobody thought about bringing all the Politicians along just in case ballast or something to stop a bullet was needed.

[Marcantilan]

Hello Glojo,

1982 war was, as always, a sad waste of young man lives, I really agree with you.

Regarding ACO, Roberto Curilovic, section leader of the SuE was positive informing that he saw three contact in the radar display, two bigs and one small ahead of the biggers.

Probably, the bigger ones were HMS Hermes and Atlantic Conveyor. Hermes was turning and ACO was exposing her flank to the Agave radar, so maybe she was the biggest contact in the screen.

HMS Ambuscade was probably the smaller ship (she detected the raid firstly)

Both exocets were fired at the same target (the biggest one), after a second pop-up confirming the three ships. At the same time, the ESM suite of both SuE were"active".

With that info, I could assume (and I am not affirming, just assuming) that soft kill measures were inefficient and Exocets hit the programmed target, passing near Ambuscade on its flight.

But, really, I wasn´t there. And the exocet fired at HMS Sheffield was fired at a "carrier sized" contact...

Regards!

[glad rag]

;)

Perhaps, though, we would do well, and so would France, to make each other best buddies. We could learn a lot from each other and we would do better in Europe and on the global stage if we worked together.


Will only work if you have them by the BALLS, tightly and for an indefinite period.

Believe me, they only work to and by coercion :sad: no matter how much they smile.:suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect:

[Courtney Mil]

I do believe you, Glad Rag. As I said, just a passing dream.

[wiggy]

Gentlemen,

When some of you can find time take a break from using this thread to trash a whole nation and retell some fairly awful jokes can I recommend you listen to this 3 part BBC radio series:

BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - The Freedom Trail (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017ltk5)

While you're at it Wiki the Comet Line, Pat O'Leary Line.

If you ever get the chance, spend some time in the French Pyrenees and you'll see memorials to the local Passeurs who risked life and limb to get Jews, Allied airman and many of those opposed to the Vichy and German regimes across the mountains into Spain.

Then feel free to rant, but at least make it an informed rant about some French politicians and managers, not an uninformed rant about the whole population.

[Kitbag]

I always wondered why Britain earned the name perfidious Albion; we as a nation have a reputation too.