FULL AB INITIO TRAINING? USA,Spain or UK

[michaelmedley]

Hi folks,

Sorry i know most of you have already had this question/thread thrown at them many times but i am seeking a more up to date answer from all you "been there,done that" people!!!

I recently attended a PTC Assesment Day and got accepted but the only thing that is stopping me (not surprisingly) is the financial side of seeking 99,000 euros!! Im now looking at JAA courses in USA and both EASA and EFT stand out to me as the best but i may be wrong?? Also Ibertour in Spain seem quite good?

Can anyone throw back some helpful tips/advice/warnings that would be superb :)

Thankyou

[pudoc]

I was always told to train in the country in which you want to work in.

Have you considered modular?

[michaelmedley]

Yes thats the price PTC gave me for modular, as for doing it myself on a modular basis i would prefer to have it all done in the next 18 months as i have myself a budget and financial plan. its roughly around the £40-50k mark for costs.

Also i would work anywhere in the world, i hear the far east are pushing for recruitment, which either means low hour pilots heading straight out there OR 2000hour+ moving across and meaning people like myself have a chance for recruitment in these gaps?

[Jerry Lee]

I would suggest you either PAT or BCFT in Bournemouth, UK.

I would not suggest you to do JAA training in the USA, but do FAA training at first and then convert it in the UK or Spain. You can still spare some peanuts to spend on some sim hours to prepare yourself for an hypothetic interview after your training.

[michaelmedley]

Thanks, i will check both them out.

The problem im having is just the AMOUNT of schools there are and all the different prices they are offering.

Will get there one day!!

Seems to me though that the USA is a big NO

[pudoc]

€99,000 for modular (am I understanding that right!!)?! Run for the hills my friend!

Plenty of other reputable modulars would do it for 40k cheaper.

I don't know your situation but you're young so you don't need to jump straight into a job. Jobs are the hardest part, it could be worth selecting a school with contacts but then you could just chose and reputable school and work in the industry for a bit networking and try to work your way up. It's really your choice, there's so many ways to do it.

[michaelmedley]

yeah thats a good idea, i have been working for TUI for three years now and when i asked them to simply mentor me through the training they ran a mile haha, i was like brilliant, thats positive. I suppose alot of airlines feel they can pick and choose which is fair enough. I did manage to get them to agree to offer me an interview at the end of training which for me is one step closer.

Yes 99k for modular training, they said its better than intergrated which was 97k (you make your own view on that one!!) i didnt think two grand made a difference for them! haha

This BCFT looks good though, Cant see any prices! i want Quality not Quantity

[Gomrath]

I would not suggest you to do JAA training in the USA, but do FAA training at first and then convert it in the UK or Spain.

and you are basing that comment on what exactly?
As at this point in time you have 800+ posts but do not hold a PPL but happily giving advice on the Professional forum.

[Jerry Lee]

I am basing my answers on the search that I have been doing for more than 2 years.

Since I am going to make my parents spend more than 50K euro for my flight training, I am seriously networking as much as I can before starting my training. I am looking for a school where I would have no problems both on the theory side and flying side.

I always heard few positive comments on the schools that provide JAA training in Florida, but there are still good outfits in Florida that have a sort of agreement with european school to convert a licence. Otherwise just convert the licence somewhere you'd like to.

Orlando Flight Training has a selling point, or a sort of commercial base, in Italy and I know 3-4 guys who went at Orlando and only one was satisfied of the service and training received.

May I suggest to give a look at Phoenix East Aviation and at their Scandinavian Program?

[Lakhan]

BCFT is around £50k. Not too sure on about accommodation.

[Jerry Lee]

According to their website, they will make arrangements on behalf of the student. but I would like to know more from students and ex-students.

I am planning to give them £38K for ATPL ground school (residential) CPL, ME, IR, MCC and FI after have obtained a PPL and 150 TT in San Diego, California. Taxes, skill test fees and rental for exams are also included. Of course, this is an estimated cost.

So far it is the best option I have sort out to satisfy my personal needs.

[No RYR for me]

I am with Gomrath on this one.... :ooh:

So far it is the best option I have sort out to satisfy my personal needs.

Personally I would go for the option that satisfy the airlines their professional needs! :8

[Telani Lithgow]

Not to put a "fly" in the ointment, but have you considered training in South Africa?

[BigGrecian]

would suggest you either PAT or BCFT in Bournemouth, UK.

I would not suggest you to do JAA training in the USA, but do FAA training at first and then convert it in the UK or Spain. You can still spare some peanuts to spend on some sim hours to prepare yourself for an hypothetic interview after your training.

I agree with Gomrath - you can't really comment at this point Jerry Lee.

As someone who used to train FAA > JAA conversions I have yet to meet one who saved money when all was said and done and around 80% did them almost irreparable damage with poor quality FAA training - every heard of primacy? What you learn first, sticks to cut a long story short.
Ask any European instructor on their thoughts on conversions....

[B2N2]

irreparable damage with poor quality FAA training

Good point Big Grecian, however not all training in the USA is poor.
There are plenty of good, very good and excellent schools in the US where there will be no problem with conversions.
Especially if the US school in question has been kind enough to emphasize things such as ADF/NDB.
Remember you can find poor training everywhere, also in Europe.
Problem is that quality and cheap very rarely, if ever, go together.
Problem is for a lay-person to have to decide to go for a 40K school that will turn out to be a 70K school by the time they are done vs a 70K school from the beginning and ending up within budget.

[peterh337]

FWIW my FAA IR training (Arizona) was much harder than my JAA IR training (UK).

Except for NDB procedures on which one can spend more or less the entire conversion time... :)

But I would never recommend doing the FAA IR first and then the JAA IR to save money, because it won't.

Take the ab initio case. You might need to fly 40-50hrs to pass the FAA IR. Then you have 15hrs (min) for the conversion). It is not going to cost less than doing the whole 55hrs (MEIR) in Europe.

There is a better case where one already has plenty of instrument time, e.g. from the IMC Rating. Most UK pilots who did the FAA IR did it that way. The FAA IR takes that as a credit in full, whereas the JAA IR disregards all previous instrument time and training - unless you have a full ICAO IR. In this case you may be looking at say 20hrs on the FAA IR (I took 25) plus 15hrs on the conversion (I took 20). But it will be a lot more hassle and now, with the EASA screw-N-reg proposal due to come in April 2014, there is little point.

Nevertheless the FTOs here are pretty scared of conversion options being too easy, which is why the current EASA conversion proposal has (IIRC) 100hrs instrument time in it. This was obviously put in to stop large numbers of ATPL cadets doing an FAA CPL/IR and then converting over here. Each such case would likely reduce an FTO's income by maybe 25%, which is a lot of money.

[pablo]

peterh337,

with all due respect I have been hearing rumors about EASA/JAA or whoever that they will make it harder for people to convert licenses, etc... in the end not much seems to happen.

About what you mention about quality of instruction in the USA, maybe is it that in the USA flying is a lot easier and you have a lot of infrastructure there for your advantage, while in Europe general aviation is neglected? Just an opinion.

I don't know if you save money or not anymore training in the USA but flying over there is really nice imho.

[peterh337]

maybe is it that in the USA flying is a lot easier and you have a lot of infrastructure there for your advantage, while in Europe general aviation is neglected? Just an opinion.It depends on what you mean by "easier".

There are two parts to flying.

There is the preflight/operational stuff, and there is the actual flying.

The former is significantly easier in the USA.

The latter is the same everywhere, of course.

If you do a JAA IR, the former is barely taught, so candidates don't even know how to develop and file a Eurocontrol flight plan across Europe. They don't know about airport PPR, Customs PNR, all the little crappy bits one has to do. The training and the IRT are almost wholly concentrated on the latter.

If you do an FAA IR, the former is taught to the extent required in the USA, and you still can't get about in Europe without some extra learning.

But I don't think a reduction in the operational stuff (in the USA) makes the flying any easier. How could it? IFR is IFR. I did both IRs so have seen both sides.

I have been hearing rumors about EASA/JAA or whoever that they will make it harder for people to convert licenses, etc... in the end not much seems to happen.

Re FAA IR to JAA/EASA IR conversion, the present 15hr conversion route becomes a bit of an unknown after April 2012, to be replaced with

Applicants for Part–FCL licences already holding at least an equivalent licence, rating or certificate issued in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention by a third country shall comply with all the requirements of Annex I to this Regulation, except that the requirements of course duration, number of lessons and specific training hours may be reduced.
The credit given to the applicant shall be determined by the Member State to which the pilot applies on the basis of a recommendation from an approved training organisation.
(from EASA FCL May 2011 Article 7 page 6 here (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/documents/tran/dv/tran20110525_pilotlicences_/tran20110525_pilotlicences_en.pdf))

which basically means that the 15-hr conversion route may be replaced with another 15-hr route, or something shorter, or longer, and it may vary from one country to another.

This sounds like good news, except that few FTOs will want to deprive themselves of income by offering something shorter... And no shortcut is proposed around the JAA exams; even a 20,000hr FAA CPL/IR has to sit the whole lot if he wants a JAA PPL/IR. Exception: an ICAO ATPL holder who has 2000+ hours on a Part 25 aircraft can now and will be able to convert directly to a JAA ATPL, without sitting the exams. The fact that an FAA ATPL is reasonably accessible to a private pilot (SE or ME) with 1500hrs TT (100hrs night) is rendered worthless in this context. An ICAO CPL/IR with any amount of experience also confers no advantage under current proposals.

However it appears that the existing 15hr conversion route will just continue - if only because nobody in the training business knows what to replace it with :)