Reds down to 7-ship for 2012 season.

[BOAC]

It must have been a difficult decision for the team and Kirsty, but the BBC has announced that she will not be flying with the team this year according to local BBC news in Lincolnshire. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-17249660)

It goes without saying that the team has been through an extremely difficult time which was only matched by the 4 team fatals in January 1971 and I wish all the team the best for the season.

[old-timer]

My thoughts are with Flt Lt Kirsty & the Reds & blues, she's a top pilot up there with the best of the best & can fully sympathise with her position.
It must have been a very difficult time for them all.
Like you say BOAC, a very tough year with a very sad end.

Godspeed the Reds & Blues, the best of the best.

[Exascot]

Perhaps the mods would be kind enough to explain why a previous thread on this subject has been closed.

Kirsty Stewart: First woman Red Arrows pilot quits suffering from stress after colleagues' deaths | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2109986/Kirsty-Stewart-First-woman-Red-Arrows-pilot-quits-suffering-stress-colleagues-deaths.html?ITO=1490)

I don't give this one much of a chance. PM me guys if you wish. There is censorship and there is censorship.

[clareprop]

Perhaps the mods would be kind enough to explain why a previous thread on this subject has been closed.
Probably because some of the comments by the asinine contributors ignored the first class front-line service record of the Flight Lieutenant and her absolute right to decide what she might and might not do in a non-conflict role.

[Cows getting bigger]

It takes balls to say 'no'. Respect. :D

[Startrek3]

Then why not just delete the comments rather than the thread? Does that mean as soon as someone posts an inappropriate comment on PPRUNE the whole thread is subsequently closed??

[Exascot]

Then why not just delete the comments rather than the thread? Does that mean as soon as someone posts an inappropriate comment on PPRuNe the whole thread is subsequently closed??

My point exactly.

Perhaps if the MOD would make a clear statement it may help. For example; was this decision a mutual agreement? Anyway, whatever, Kirsty, all the best for the future and I hope you get your flying boots back on again in due course. Very few people go through a career without some sort of hiccup. It is just unfortunate that some are more high profile than others.

The mods are now under pressure and going to be working all night on shifts on this one :D

[Spanish Waltzer]

A former Red Arrows pilot is rejoining the display team following the death of Flt Lt Sean Cunningham.

The 35-year-old pilot was killed after being ejected from his Hawk T1 aircraft while it was on the ground at RAF Scampton on 8 November.

Squadron Leader Martin Higgins will take his place for the 2012 display season.

Sqn Ldr Higgins' position will be taken up by Squadron Leader Mike Ling who was injured and left the team last year.



According to this BBC article from late last year the team had re-organised & were back to 9. Surely therefore with the departure of Flt Lt Stewart they are back to 8 not 7:confused:

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

According to this BBC article from late last year the team had re-organised & were back to 9. Surely therefore with the departure of Flt Lt Stewart they are back to 8 not 7

The decision to reduce to seven is because the displays would look "odd" with eight - which I agree they do.

Obviously the Patrouille de France fly with eight planes as standard but their formations are designed with this in mind. Presumably too late to make this change now so seven is the easy answer.

[P6 Driver]

A press statement has confirmed that from a visual perspective if nothing else, it is easier/better to fly a 7-ship rather than an 8-ship formation.

On another web site, someone commented that apart from the (I assume) obviously difficult decision taken by the Reds pilot to leave the team, there is another pilot who deserves some thought.

As the Reds will fly 7-aircraft displays this year, it appears that another pilot loses his place on the team, and may only join the Reds for the 9-ship flypasts. After all the application & selection process and the winter training, to lose your place in the full displays through no fault of your own must also be difficult.

[Finningley Boy]

I do like to see a degree of balance in quite sensitive issues such as this, but I've just looked at the Mail on Line comments on this subject and they are pretty damned ill-informed and horrendous. Whoever, thought the line wasn't being toed on the original pprune thread should have alook at what the Mail's Proletariat readership are saying.

FB

[Pontius Navigator]

FB, you are right but remember this is a professional forum and not an open one like that populated by Mail readers.

Startrek, it may have been possible to pprune the original thread but is was perhaps easier to delete it rather than pprune it. The OP may also have deleted it.

[hurn]

As the Reds will fly 7-aircraft displays this year, it appears that another pilot loses his place on the team, and may only join the Reds for the 9-ship flypasts. After all the application & selection process and the winter training, to lose your place in the full displays through no fault of your own must also be difficult. I would guess that it may be Red 8 Dave Davies, which would leave Gypo just as a Synchro Pair and Enid with the full five. This would have been his fourth year with the team anyway so the disappointment might be slightly easier to take.

Again I'd take a reasonable guess that he and Red 10 Mike Ling would make up the numbers in a nine ship flypast.

[Tankertrashnav]

I am certainly one who didn't think "the line was being toed" on the previous thread. A contributer, as I recall, said something along the lines of "this used to be called LMF", and was roundly condemned by myself and others for such a crass insulting remark. His use of the very silly :E emoticon (God I hate that thing) only served only to worsen the impact.

Whether this pilot has left the Reds at her own request, or has been removed as a result of a falling-off of her performance or for whatever reason is entirely irrelevant. To use such a term, which I thought had been discredited more than 60 years ago was grossly offensive, whatever the pilot's gender.

[Flightmech]

At the end of the day it's none of our business why she's decided not to fly with the Reds this year. It's between her and her bosses. Why should they announce a reason at all?:confused:

[The B Word]

I'm not a Mail Online (or any other Mail product) reader and I have over 2000hrs on various FJs. Whilst it is the Flt Lt's right to ask to stop flying - in fact if she is so very shaken by it all then I believe she should stop. What I don't get is how have we let someone get into and remain in the FJ game without the required psychological make up?
Back in the 90s I was going to mate's funerals 2-3 times a year who had come a cropper in training. If 13% of us 'threw in the towel' then the Front Line would have decimated within years. I would hope that someone looks at the fortitude of FJ aircrew and looks at toughening it up again - it used to be a hard environment to work in for a reason; life expectancy is low on proper contested combat ops, and finding out during that op that those do not have the required fortitude is not the right time!
I only take solace that the Flt Lt had the fortitude to say 'no' right now - but perhaps they have been in 'denial' to the dangers of FJ flying for too long?

Waiting out for the inevitable 'incoming'...

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

At the end of the day it's none of our business why she's decided not to fly with the Reds this year. It's between her and her bosses. Why should they announce a reason at all?

Well there you get on to the whole concept of "celebrity" these days I'm afraid.

There is an argument (with which I have at least a little sympathy) that if you opt for a lifestyle that puts you very much in the public eye, reinforced by a publicity department that promotes your image, then you have to accept that there will also be interest in matters which you would prefer to keep private.

[Capt Scribble]

Incoming.. Agreed. War, I believe is also pretty stressful. Those involved should realise that they are not in a flying club.

[Five Livers]

What next?

Are we going to see female Typhoon pilots resigning because one or two of their mates gets killed?

[Uncle Ginsters]

The word 'reassigned' can originate from many different things.

Why can't folk just wait for the facts and respect whatever decisions have been made by those concerned (not necessarily Kirsty herself).

I, for one, wish her all the best for whatever the future holds.

[Finningley Boy]

What next?

Are we going to see female Typhoon pilots resigning because one or two of their mates gets killed?
Never, the Typhoon is far to good to be gotten the better of!:ok:

So I've heard!!:O

FB:)

[Timelord]

The loss of two pilots out of nine within months would have shaken many a squadron aviator even in the "good old days" when death was a regular feature of squadron life. These days it is much less common and many (most) of todays FJ aviators have never experienced the loss of a squadron mate, and thank God for it.

Flt Lt Moore has served her country both on ops and the display circuit. If she chooses, for whatever reason, not to do so any more then she deserves our thanks and our best wishes.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

All the best to Kirsty. Whatever hand she had in the decision I'm sure it wasn't taken lightly.

I'm surprised at the disparity between the 2 stories. One quotes the MOD directly as saying it was down to the "unavoidable reassignment of one of their pilots," while the other quotes a "source" as saying she quit. It's a shame if the MOD are muddying the waters.

[old-timer]

Well said Timelord, I fully agree.
Kindest respects & best wishes to Kirsty.

Having lost 3 friends & associates in flying incidents I can fully sympathise, it's very hard to deal with.

[Tankertrashnav]

Does the paperwork still get stamped LMF these days or is there a politically correct euphemism?


Well done Lookingnorth - thats just the sort of post that got the previous thread pulled :rolleyes:.

A chum of mine who had lost his brother in a fatal in the 70's was quietly shunted onto Ops for the last year or so of his service, with no-one thinking the worse of him, even though his nerve had patently gone.

Anyone using the term LMF about him would have got very short shrift from the rest of us. We may have been a rough old bunch on tankers, but we werent dinosaurs!

[oldbeefer]

'Having lost 3 friends & associates in flying incidents I can fully sympathise, it's very hard to deal with.'

Yes, so have I over the years, and has been the same since flying began. Generally, people, myself included, bite the bullet and get on with it. My comments on the earlier thread (now deleted) were caused mainly by my disappointment at this situation - not helped by my recent viewing of the Beeb programme about the bomber force in WW2. Mates were lost every day, but the survivors got on with it.

[AutoBit]

There are some people here who need to get off their high horse's. For whatever reason Kirsty has left she is certainly not the first FJ pilot that this has happend to, she just happens to be fairly high profile, so maybe a bit less of the "in my day it was all part of the job" rubbish.

Just my thoughts.

[chanter]

As has been said before, nobody knows the exact reasons behind Kirsty's departure and as such, both her and the teams decision should be respected rather than caned by anonymous posters on a forum for so called " professional pilots ".

She is a serving officer of the Royal Air Force who deserves our respect and gratitude for what she has achieved so far in her career as do all who serve in the best Armed Forces in the world

[Just This Once...]

Really disappointed to see a named and still serving junior officer discussed in this way.

[moralecourage]

Quite right she is a serving officer in the Royal Air Force and therefore higher standards are expected of her.

[Chinny Crewman]

LMF? What era are some people living in? There is a recognised medical condition known as PTSD which the RAF is very good at treating despite what the media may say.

Having seen close friends struggle due to stress I am pleased to say that the RAF, certainly at Odiham at least, recognises that people react in different ways. A couple of individuals I know a few years ago were lost to the service as their circumstances were not recognised and treated however recently the handful of people at Odiham who were struggling and suffered mentally have been offered help and are now back at Odiham or are productive in different areas. I do not know what happened to this individual however far better that her experience is utilised elsewhere to the benefit of the service than distraction/stress or whatever result in another thread on here about an incident with a Red!

[glad rag]

^^^^^ Not for long ^^^^

[Cows getting bigger]

It would appear to me that Kirsty is far more professional than some of the muppets posting here.

[Thoughtful_Flyer]

Really disappointed to see a named and still serving junior officer discussed in this way.

In an ideal world maybe.

However, in the real world, she opted to apply for her high profile and very public role. Her success in achieving it was widely promoted in the national press as an extension of what the Red Arrows do - i.e. public relations.

It is inevitable that any negatives will be reported and discussed with similar enthusiasm.

Like it or not, that's life.

[SmilingKnifed]

I for one would argue it takes far more 'moral fibre' to recognise and deal with stress rather than take it (and it's performance degrading effect) into the cockpit of a fast jet, particularly one in close formation with 8 others.

Irrespective of opinions, I wonder how many here would be happy to voice their opinions of a fellow Officer to her face or openly in a crew room among her sqn colleagues.

[Tourist]

It never ceases to amaze me how some Crabs will turn on their own brothers and sisters.

Jesus guys, you are supposed to defend each other to the death, especially in public!

C#@ts

[sidewayspeak]

What would we we think if the hypothetical situation was thus:

Royal Marine/Infantry soldier refuses to return to Afghanistan because one of his mates was blown up in an IED...

or

Fire fighter refuses to attend future fires and takes desk job following fire which killed two of his colleagues...

or

Policeman takes desk-job following fatal shooting of his partner in Manchester...

Are those situations acceptable, or would you feel little sympathy with the individuals?

[Could be the last?]

How many of you chinless wonders would say half of these comments to her face?

No I didn't think so...............

[SRENNAPS]

Royal Marine/Infantry soldier refuses to return to Afghanistan because one of his mates was blown up in an IED...

or

Fire fighter refuses to attend future fires and takes desk job following fire which killed two of his colleagues...

or

Policeman takes desk-job following fatal shooting of his partner in Manchester...

Are those situations acceptable, or would you feel little sympathy with the individuals?

Ehhmmm, I think all three situations occur on a relatively frequent basis – they just don’t make headline news. But I think you will find that family and friends totally respect any decision made and show a great deal of sympathy. As I would to any story of this nature I heard in my local.

I totally respect Flight Lieutenant Kirsty Stewart and the decision she has made. She has been under tremendous pressure form the word go. She should have been celebrating the fact that she was the first female Red Arrows pilot, but she is left to remember the loss of two of her very close colleagues (friends).

Some people here have never lost a close friend or colleague so they have no idea what it feels like.

[Chris Griffin]

I think this thread needs pulling.

The problem is that those that choose to denigrate Kirsty hide behind anonymity. More relevant questions are - how many of those who do choose to denigrate Kirsty are current serving? How many are current professional aviators? I'm guessing at none.

Until you've walked a mile in Kirsty's shoes you have absolutely no right to comment.

That lady has more courage, dignity, ability and honour than any of you so keep your LMF comments to yourselves.

Dicks.:*

[Mach Two]

With the exception of those of you that have offered reasoned (and reasonable) posts here, I have but one thing to say. Kirsty is a professional and highly skilled pilot. It is none of our business why she came to the brave and correct decision that things weren't right. This is not combat ops and her decision has no bearing whatsoever on her commitment as an operational pilot. How dare you all bring your uninformed, malicious speculation into public? A named, serving officer being maligned on PPRuNe. Disgraceful

Kirsty, well done for two years of excellent display flying and goodluck for the future. I hope your return to flying is swift and successful. And to the rest of the Team, for what it's worth, you have my support.

Mach Two.

[OmegaV6]

It would appear to me that Kirsty is far more professional than some of the muppets posting here.

That lady has more courage, dignity, ability and honour than any of you

Absolutely agree 100%.

[fantom]

This is dreadful.

Whooligan: where are you?

I may skip PPRuNe Mil for a while.

Not that I matter a jot.

[Courtney Mil]

Thank you, M2, OmegaV6 and Fantom (and a few others). My post in the previous thread was deleted, but along almost similar lines. Those that are serving should know better. Those of us that are not, have no say in this. Who does that leave that post such vitriol?

I add my congratulations to Flt Lt Stewart.

If any of you are in any doubt about what you are doing here, look at Tourist's excellent observation:

It never ceases to amaze me how some Crabs will turn on their own brothers and sisters.

Jesus guys, you are supposed to defend each other to the death, especially in public!

C#@ts

[SRENNAPS]

I don’t think it should be pulled, I think it should be left open to let the cowards here delete their posts in shame or let the honourable people here congratulate Kirsty on what she deserves and in memory of two people that lost their lives bringing joy and pleasure to thousands

[Flying Lawyer]

FWIW, an outsider's opinion.

If, as reported, Flt Lt Stewart felt unable to continue then surely she should be respected for having the courage to say so instead of carrying on regardless and potentially putting herself and others at risk?

It's not the first time someone has asked to leave the team. There is at least one pilot (with previous display experience) who was posted to the Red Arrows (as Leader) and asked to leave during pre-season training because he realised that it wasn't for him. He went on to achieve extremely high rank.

FL

[phil9560]

Personally I think she can hold her head high.

Hardly an underachiever is she ?