Libya - A Great Investment

[Ewan Whosearmy]

That £100m we spent helping the Libyan people be free was clearly a wise investment:

LiveLeak.com - Libyan NTC Islamists Destroying British and Commonwealth War Cemetery Benghazi

:ugh:

[racedo]

Its what Hague wanted............ am Islamic govt with support from Al Qaeda....Bet he and his oil chums are happy now.

[500N]

They go ballistic when the koran is burned and then do this ?

It's survived and kept clean by them for 50 + years to be destroyed
by a bunch of people who might have been speaking German or Italian
if it hadn't have been for the Allies.

[Coochycool]

Makes my blood boil this.

Useful scenario for a SF exercise though. See who the real soldiers are.

Word gets around ;o)

These fools go home

[barnstormer1968]

I just found that so very very sad to watch.

Did the locals bombard the West telling us they did not like us and did not want our support when we were saving their lives and giving them freedom during the recent skirmishes? Maybe they did, but I never saw it, and only remember various spokesmen asking for more help.

The video has left a nasty dull feeling in my stomach, which is made worse by the fact services are being cut in my local area so I could pay to support these people, and that British forces have been some of these scums key enablers.:confused:

[NutLoose]

Scum, and worse than that, they are desecrating graves of those countries that were not responsible for burning the Koran.

One hopes their new Government see's this and realises the effect it will have in their support and deals with them accordingly.

[Buster Hyman]

It's all part of the plan.

They needed the Wests help to topple Ghaddafi because none of the other Arab states had the guts or inclination, but to their "brothers", they must be seen as anti-West.

Once Syria falls to the fundamentalist scum, I reckon we'll start to see some form of unification, regardless of the factions, that will almost form a single combined fundamentalist state. If I was Israel, I'd make sure the stockpile was accurate & full.

[Robert Cooper]

They are Muslims, it's what they do. They did the same to the British military cemeteries in Iraq.

Bob C

[500N]

I haven't seen this in the UK papers yet.

Has it been in them ?

I would have thought that it would be front page news
and an outcry if it was in them.

[polyglory]

Words fail me.

It has finally made the UK papers

Insult to WWII heroes: Graves of British soldiers smashed and desecrated by Libyan Islamists in protest over U.S. soldiers' Koran burning | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106230/Insult-WWII-heroes-Graves-British-soldiers-smashed-desecrated-Libyan-Islamists-protest-U-S-soldiers-Koran-burning.html#ixzz1nSt0qV94)

[Thelma Viaduct]

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya et al have never been worth the life of 1 British serviceman/Woman.


But please feel free to kid yourself otherwise.

[VinRouge]

kind of makes me care a little bit less when I see a guy with a beard in kit form in Syria. sad really. Leave em to it.

[Jayand]

Very sad, but I think people need to remember our colonial, emperial past.
From 1942 we and the French took control of Libya and put down any independant resistance! If there is one thing Arabs hate more than anything else it is being occupied and told what to do by Westerners. We might be upset but really we should not be surprised, anti western feelings will NEVER go away.

[charliegolf]

From 1942 we and the French took control of Libya and put down any independant resistance! If there is one thing Arabs hate more than anything else it is being occupied and told what to do by Westerners.

For that reason, and a bit of empathy with....

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya et al have never been worth the life of 1 British serviceman/Woman.



... we should let them get on with it. Their stone age view of life doesn't fit with ours- so be it. And oil? They will still want to sell it, or in their isolation, they will fester and die.

If the, "We're doing the world policing so that they can't export terror to us." argument is really appropriate, then don't let them out of their borders. Any of them.

CG (Quite right wing for me- hey ho.)

[Q-RTF-X]

For crying out loud Jayland, get real and stop trying to feed some justification into this incident, imho it’s damn all to do with colonial past, I doubt in fact the level of education of that lot extends to any real history anyhow. No, it’s a bunch of moronic Islamic extremists displaying well and truly how miserably low they can get and is more likely motivated simply by allowing themselves get stirred up by some religious zealot. I would have thought they would have been a little better filling up their time cleaning up some of the mess their place is in and helping rebuild the country; but I suppose I should not really have any reasonable expectations of such low life. In the meantime I wait for the sounds of outrage and condemnation from the so called ‘moderate’ elements of their religious persuasion.

[Jayand]

Am not trying to justify this hideous act but merely putting a different perspective on it.
I think you underestimate their knowledge and appreciation of their own history, these people have been the subject of foreign (white man) intervention and rule for centuries, they know whats happened.
I am as sickened as the next man but only a fool would be surprised.

[500N]

Jayand

Until 1951 when it was granted independence or if you like, 1969.


So if they know history, why are the destroying a Commonwealth Graves,

Ottoman, then Italy, a brief period after WW11 by ? then independence.
And then white man helped them get out of the situation last year.

[Torque Tonight]

If they have such a comprehensive appreciation of history then perhaps thay can cast their minds back 5 months to when the 'infidels' enabled them to achieve their freedom. Without our input these very people would probably now be hanging from meathooks in one of Gadaffi's jails.

Of course every society has its f---wits and I trust these are not representative of the new leadership of Libya, who now have a clear choice between entering the modern world or returning to the dark ages. What we do not need is an Al Qaeda colony within spitting distance of mainland Europe.

At the very least I would like to see a formal, diplomatic complaint to the new government of Libya, and perhaps the full cost of restoration and 24-hour guard in perpetuity should be deducted from their share of the aid budget, which is no doubt colossal.

[Jayand]

BBC News - History through Libyan eyes (http://www.google.co.uk/m/url?client=ms-android-hms-vf-uk&ei=tttQT6DFHdWTjwf1xwE&hl=en-GB&q=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12882213&source=android-browser-type&ved=0CCcQFjAE&usg=AFQjCNE5ErCrrW0Eyah1YFPcl7sPbQeKPw)

[Jayand]

History teaches us that arabs will readily take our help but will rarely thank us for it!
The bottom line is they want nothing to do with us and only have sympathy for countries where we are involved/occupy. That anger/sympathy is massively heightened by the huge own goal of burning the koran!
Not defending any of their actions but people need to think of the bigger picture.
Ten years from now we may regret ever helping get rid of Col Gadaffi.

[Wander00]

Don's see much reporting of a formal diplomatic complaint from the UK Government - wimps!

[500N]

They are too enthralled in the Olympics and getting gongs for that.
Plus you need a functioning Gov't to make a complaint to !

[maxred]

Our political masters call it democratic freedom. These were ''freedom fighters'' against the evils of the Libyan, Iraqi, wherever, regimes that the West did not like.

The scenes are shocking, but frankly should we surprised?

The future should be interesting.

Be very careful what you wish for, you might just get it.:mad:

[Ken Scott]

Absolutely disgusting. And as for the idiot cameraman chanting 'God is great' as he films people desecrating the headstones of men who died to liberate his country from the Germans & Italians....

I note that they reserved special 'attention' for those headstones belonging to Jews. We should have removed our ex-pats and left the country in the hands of Gaddaffi for him to administer his own form of 'justice' to these vermin.

[phil9560]

I had my misgivings at the time.

Freedom fighters ?

My @arse

[dead_pan]

Not surprised in the slightest. As already noted, they're a bunch of ill-educated cretins.

I wonder whether this particular Genie will ever be put back in the bottle?

[phil9560]

Given that we helped smash the bottle to pieces I very much doubt it.No bottle to return it to.

[Easy Street]

CWGC - Benghazi War Cemetery (http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/latest-cemetery-information/benghazi-war-cemetery.aspx)

[SRENNAPS]

I felt sick watching that.

So apart from the Mail Online and LiveLeak, has this been reported anywhere else? Was it actually in the printed version of the Daily Mail. Why has the Sun not reported anything about it (they allegedly support our troops - past and present). Has any politician or Foreign Office diplomat condemned it or even made a statement. Has there been any form of statement of condemnation made by the CWGC, the British Legion or anybody else that supports our Fallen Heroes.

The problem is that anybody in a position of authority in the Western World is scared sh!tle$$ that they might offend them. I find it sick that our politicians grovel to apologise when any incident that offends their religion occurs but they say nothing when an incident like this occurs. This will never work out and rest assured it will only get worse. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[herkman]

We should stop giving them money and aid.

The money would be better spent and bringing them to a place where they can rest in peace.

I find the whole thing very sad and an insukt to their service

Regards

Col

[BA Bluntie]

SRENNAPS,

I was so sickened when I saw the footage that I was moved to write to my MP - coincidentally the Right Honourable Philip Hammond MP, asking those very points.

Bluntie

[tonker]

Mosques blockaded? Muslim printing presses destroyed? Letter bombs sent to clerics?:ugh:

[rmac]

We could solve it the Taliban way....re-colonise, appoint a new Gaddhafi as our man in charge, take off the gloves ....and hang long lines of dissenters, publicly from lamp posts in the streets of Benghazi.

Of course some might see that as a little extreme .......

[ORAC]

these people have been the subject of foreign (white man) intervention and rule for centuries, they know whats happened. Typical apologist crap. If the region was occupied, it was for a reason. Ask the US Marines.......

Barbary corsairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_corsairs)

The Barbary Corsairs, sometimes called Ottoman Corsairs or Berber Pirates, were pirates and privateers who operated from North Africa, based primarily in the ports of Tunis, Tripoli and Algiers. This area was known in Europe as the Barbary Coast, a term derived from the name of its Berber inhabitants. Their predation extended throughout the Mediterranean, south along West Africa's Atlantic seaboard and even South America,[1] and into the North Atlantic as far north as Iceland, but they primarily operated in the western Mediterranean. In addition to seizing ships, they engaged in Razzias, raids on European coastal towns and villages, mainly in Italy, France, Spain, and Portugal, but also in England, Scotland, the Netherlands, Ireland, and as far away as Iceland. The main purpose of their attacks was to capture Christian slaves for the Islamic market in North Africa and the Middle East.[2]

While such raids had occurred since soon after the Muslim conquest of the region, the terms Barbary Pirates and Barbary Corsairs are normally applied to the raiders active from the 16th century onwards, when the frequency and range of the slavers' attacks increased and Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli came under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire, either as directly administered provinces or as autonomous dependencies known as the Barbary States. Similar raids were undertaken from Bou Regreg and Salé and other ports in Morocco, but strictly speaking Morocco, which never came under Ottoman dominance, was not one of the Barbary States.

Göke (1495) was the flagship of Kemal Reis at the Battle of Zonchio
Corsairs captured thousands of ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, corsairs captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million people as slaves.[2] Some corsairs were European outcasts such as John Ward, Zymen Danseker and Henry Mainwaring.[3] Hayreddin Barbarossa and Oruç Reis, the Barbarossa brothers, who took control of Algiers on behalf of the Ottomans in the early 16th century, were also famous corsairs. The European pirates brought state-of-the-art sailing and shipbuilding techniques to the Barbary Coast around 1600, which enabled the corsairs to extend their activities into the Atlantic Ocean,[3] and the impact of Barbary raids peaked in the early to mid-17th century.........

[SRENNAPS]

Just watched the review of newspapers on the BBC News and I see that the Mail on Sunday has made it front page news. Well done to them. The BBC mentioned that there was also “some video footage” on line somewhere. So why don’t they show it on their News as a proper report ???:mad:

[LXGB]

Top story on Sky News website now:

British War Graves Desecrated In Libya (http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16181894)

[Utrinque Apparatus]

Shall we have a "Day of Rage", or storm and burn a few Embassies ? The excuse is the irreverent disposal of the Korans in Afghanistan of course - why are they so much better at propaganda than us ? Could it be that they are not suffocated by liberal dogma and Political Correctness

I wonder what the Saudis do with all the confiscated Bibles and Christian symbols ?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Given how the BBC just loves to regurgitate online footage already posted elsewhere and then signpost it as "news", one can only assume that its vague reference to footage means that they haven't yet visited Liveleak.

Or maybe it's that the BBC is so keen not to do anything that might cast a minority in a bad light that actually they're going to conveniently forgo the opportunity to recycle this little bit of film.

Which one could it be, I wonder.

[500N]

In the Aussie media (The Age) it says the Libya's National Transitional Council has apologised and vowed to find those responsible.

.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

And if they do find those responsible, what are they going to do? Congratulate them?

The NTC is already blocking any extradition attempt by the British Government to try those responsible for the murder of PC Yvonne Fletcher in 1986, so I very much doubt that they'll do anything much at all to this bunch of idiots.

[P6 Driver]

Some people just can't help doing things like that - it's in their nature.

It's not just Libyan morons doing it though - a war memorial in Margate was also vandalised/desecrated last week, possibly by British morons.

I hope they all feel proud of themselves.

[Easy Street]

BBC News - Fury over attack on British war graves in Benghazi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17244211)

[fallmonk]

Like already mentioned doing this destruction while shouting "God is great"
Well when you meet your maker (soon I hope)I hope he reminds you. NO God would approve of destruction of respectful markers of the dead.

Scum is scum no mater what religion/nationality they are !

[langleybaston]

I too felt sick, really sick.

So I sat down, calmed down a bit, and called down a spectacular, detailed, curse on the perpetrators, involving specific terminal diseases of tender parts of their anatomies.

I suggest that others try the same: after all, their God is Great, he should hack such a simple matter.

But not quickly, please.

[Courtney Mil]

As this thread isn't really discussing our investment in Libya, but rather a (hopefully) small faction of morons that desrve to die (I hope that's not too strong, but more to come), I thought you might all be interested in some news from inside the country that may give a feel for what our real investment is/was.

First, my comment. I take some comfort from the thought that these disgusting vandals are expecting, one day, to meet Alah. What a shock they're going to get when they find out they were wrong after all.

Here's the news:

By George Grant

5:21PM GMT 05 Mar 2012

The desecration of two military cemeteries in Benghazi over the weekend is just the latest piece of bad news to come out of Libya. On February 21, it was reported that two British journalists had been detained by a militia in Tripoli, initially accused of entering the country illegally and now accused of being spies. Their captors have pledged to hand them over to the authorities once their own "investigations" have been completed, but the fate of the reporters still remains uncertain.

Worse, for several months now we have been reading reports of torture and abuse taking place in detention centres beyond the control of Libya’s transitional government, in which more than 8,000 people continue to be held. This situation is particularly acute in and around the city of Misurata, where an ongoing dispute with the people of nearby Tawergha, who fought for Gaddafi during the revolution, accounts for a disproportionate amount of the extrajudicial internment and abuse.

The portrait of Libya being generated is of a country spinning slowly, but surely, out of control. Whilst welcoming the National Transitional Council (NTC)’s condemnation of the graveyard desecrations and its pledge to undertake a full investigation, one is left asking simultaneously whether this well-meaning body is really in a position to do anything about it.

As it happens, knowing that fellow Libyans intervened to stop these men from causing further damage, and recognising just how strongly people in Libya will feel about this incident (the chief mufti has already appeared on television condemning the attacks and declaring them in contravention of Islam) it is not inconceivable that the perpetrators will be caught and brought to justice.

Indeed, what makes this particular incident so abhorrent is not just the utter disrespect it shows to the sanctity of the cemeteries and the memories of those buried there, but also the fact that it helps to reinforce what is already a profoundly misleading picture of Libya today.

Having spent a fortnight in the country last month, I can say with some certainty that Libya is not collapsing. On the contrary, for a country less than six months on from the end of a war that ended one of the most regressive and eccentric dictatorships in recent memory, Libya is doing very well indeed.

Across the country as a whole, Libya’s militias are much less of a problem than commonly believed. Their objective is not to carve out fiefdoms for themselves, still less to topple the new government. Rather, as the UN’s envoy in Libya Ian Martin recently asserted, they represent a much less than perfect alternative to the still underdeveloped army and police, and a programme to integrate militia into these regular forces is now under way.

A classic example of misreporting on this issue came from the Guardian in an article on February 21, which warned of Libya's “disintegration” at the hands of more than 500 militias, using elections in Misurata as a specific example. The paper warned that the elections in Libya’s third city, unsanctioned by the NTC, were “a final step to what is independence in all but name”.

This was ironic, since two days later a couple of NTC members I was speaking to in Tripoli were hailing the Misurata elections as an unparalleled success. These were local elections, hence not considered to be within the remit of the NTC. Moreover, they had passed off without a shot fired and, of course, no declaration of independence from Misurata, formal or otherwise. The peaceful nature of this election, the NTC men insisted, augured well for countrywide elections of a National Assembly due in June.

Beyond Misurata, the vast majority of militia are now off the streets in urban centres including Tripoli and Benghazi, and checkpoints are few and far between.

Why then, is none of this being widely reported? First, there is of course the argument that it’s no news if it’s not bad news. Stories about how shops and restaurants across the country are once again open for business and queues at petrol stations are normal do not make for very interesting copy.

A second reason, however, could just as well be the law of unintended consequences. The last time the international press descended on Libya in force was for the first anniversary celebrations of the revolution on February 17. This coincided almost perfectly with the return of an equally large number of militia to the nation’s city centres, since they too wanted to be part of the momentous occasion.

Unfortunately, there appears to have been an almost total disconnect between the media’s reportage of the militia presence and their reappearance for the first anniversary celebrations. Within three days of the festivities taking place, the centre of Tripoli was once again almost emptied of armed militia and checkpoints. When not actually trying to carve out a quasi-autonomous fiefdom, there’s only so long a young man is willing to pose on the back of a pick-up truck with his Kalashnikov without getting paid. By this time, however, international interest in Libya had largely subsided too.

It is important to recognise just how widespread the desire of Libya’s people to see their revolution succeed actually is. Not only that, but this desire is accompanied by a strong sense of collective ownership that is compelling Libyans to take responsibility for the success or otherwise of their country’s transition to democratic rule. This country has just fought a war for its freedom and there is virtually no desire to start another one, amongst militia or anybody else.

Of course, it takes more than collective will to make a revolution succeed, but this is a country with great potential. In addition to its vast economic resources, Libya benefits from a comparatively literate workforce and a much more religiously moderate population than commonly believed. Nobody should be writing this country off as another failed state in-waiting just yet.

George Grant is a Research Fellow at the Henry Jackson Society.

Libya is not a failed state in-waiting - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/9124380/Libya-is-not-a-failed-state-in-waiting.html)

[racedo]

First, my comment. I take some comfort from the thought that these disgusting vandals are expecting, one day, to meet Alah. What a shock they're going to get when they find out they were wrong after all.

From one of the cheerleaders of bombing Libya in contravention of UN I would expect nothing less from the DT.

[VinRouge]

Perhaps I could suggest this treatment for the perpetrators with the chap at the front fed bacon butties.

'The Human Centipede' Trailer HD - YouTube (http://youtu.be/IX8fKLjC__c)

[Courtney Mil]

Racedo, the DT? That was my comment, not the DT's. I'll explain if you require.

[racedo]

Sorry Courtney, copied 1st part of the post so clear what was responding. Somehow I feel they will not meet Allah.

Issue with failed state was with the DTs comment, they were cheerleaders for what I believe was an illegal action, funded by Qatar and Saudi's all the while they hide behind claims of doing it for people's good.

Funny how the rights of half their population do not exist while they claim rights for others.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Racedo. If they think that sort of thing is what the Qur'an says to do, they will be very disappointed. Supposed to be a peaceful religion - like all the others.

[racedo]

Supposed to be a peaceful religion - like all the others.

Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people.

[Out Of Trim]

However, it seems people indoctrinated by religion; kill people! :hmm: