View Full Version : RT TIPS and STRATEGIES
27th Feb 2012, 14:20
Compiling route specific notes. Looking for useful tips and tricks on radio telephony procedures for CX routes. Strategies for dealing with the not so fluent controller. VHF, HF, Oceanic etc.
27th Feb 2012, 14:39
Why the F8ck would you care? If you call em twice on hf and they don't respond go back to reading the paper, doing your log book or playing angry birds...theres is nothing I hate worse than some ****** broadcasting to feckin' Calcutta 20 times... who give a f8ck.. just move on.
27th Feb 2012, 15:26
For frig sakes, this is what line training is for, or is our training now conducted on pprune? :ugh:
27th Feb 2012, 15:38
My take on this thus far and that's not very far of course . . .
AAIGUY has a valid point and Dan might on reflection see that
'training' is not confined to the C and T corridors of the company but
is in a sense universal. I've no comment on the merits or o/wise of the first
posters project as I have been away from the scene for years but I flew
often when in harness with such as AAIGUY and they were generally
endowed with uncommon common sense here endeth . .. . .
27th Feb 2012, 22:15
It's what happens when guys are put in a big shiny jet (well, not so shiny if it's a 340) and have never spoken on a radio before.
Maybe we can start a PPrune check and training department????
27th Feb 2012, 23:04
You are far better to speak really slowly and get your message across first time than have to repeat it 2 or 3 times.
Pilots & ATC'ers alike often seem to think that speaking fast shows how clever they are. Instead they often cause immense confusion and delays.
Listen out first before speaking.... There is never a reason to race in to speak first. (you find 99% of Asian Airlines think RT is some kind of race)
If you're not used to the accents write down the clearance you expect before talking to ATC, then you can just make amendments.
Don't guess. Be clear what ATC has instructed you to do.
I often say: "You're speaking too fast. Say again sloooowly"
You're not single pilot. If in doubt ask for help or ideas.
If no CPDLC or HF comms for 30mins while Oceanic then do something about it.
Eg: 121.5 or relay your message.
You can always Satcom ATC (I've never had an answer from Mumbai ever!) or Satcom Cathay Ops to let them know you're OK & get them to phone ATC.
In the Indian Ocean, Mumbai is absolutely useless but you can often get Brisbane...they are v nice & can give you flight follow and/or phone Mumbai too (mostly we have CPDLC nowadays, so it's not such a drama)
Lastly, everyone you talk to ATC, Engineers, Re-fueller etc Is trying to kill you!!! (not necessarily intentionally).... 2nd guess everything and re-check it.
We are massively overworked and tired. So are they!!
We all make mistakes.
28th Feb 2012, 00:29
Some great advice there from Silberfuchs.
I would add the following:
1. Keep it simple and stick to standard ICAO phraseology, especially when talking to controllers whose first language isn't English and/or when talking on HF.
2. When speaking on HF, talk slowly, 'deliberately' and a bit louder than you normally would. HF is often crap and the radio operators have as much trouble hearing us as we do hearing them through all the background noise and chatter.
28th Feb 2012, 00:57
or is our training now conducted on PPRuNe?
What's the down side? PPRuNe line training would be exactly the same as CX line training. Full of sarcasm, intimidation, bitterness, fear-mongering etc, with the occasional bit of valid information tucked away in there somewhere.
28th Feb 2012, 01:14
Speak slowly, annunciate clearly, use only standard R/T, and be adaptive to the ATC environment you are in.
And by all means avoid the "Chuck Yeager" slang and loose pronunciation endemic among many crews....from the US in particular. I say this as a North American myself. I am frequently appalled and embarrassed at the R/T I hear from my fellow North Americans. Invariably, the poor Asian controller doesn't even respond, and I can picture him/her gobsmacked and confused as to what they just heard. This leads to repeat transmissions that just clog the ether.
28th Feb 2012, 02:26
I think you've had a short circuit young man. If they read anything on PPrune it obviously goes in one ear and out the other (maybe also like line training!!!!), that's why we're having to entertain this stupid thread. FFS
28th Feb 2012, 03:56
When getting your airway clearance on the ground, particularly in India & Malaysia, have the CFP page 3 open (ICAO ATS Flight Plan) where the departure and all the airways are already written.
When they start rattling off airways really fast, normally they say the first 2 or 3, you can just tick them off and read it back from the CFP.
Normally the only thing that is different would be the SID, the airways are normally as planned.
All you are doing is putting ticks on the CFP, and takes no time at all.
Unless you're one of our trainers who hates anyone else putting marks on the CFP!
29th Feb 2012, 10:53
Go somewhere else.
29th Feb 2012, 21:55
Dont sweat it, I'm sure your Captain will have been there before and can help you along no matter where you are in the world :ok:
A couple of things that annoy me:
1/ Calling "Fully ready" or "ready on reaching" or "Ready in turn"
2/ "The Cathay…"
3/ Continually addressing the call sign of the station being used, e.g. "HK ground CX 123 Bay E3 req pushback" and then next call "HK Ground CX 123 Taxi" You don't need to address them each and every call, only first contact or when there has been a time lag between calls or on HF.
minor stuff really, but still a little annoying
p.s. In Oz you can use the phraseology "Cathay one seventy three" if you like:ok: ( and not the usual Cathay 173 )
29th Feb 2012, 22:10
Nitpicker. Just to clarify your point for everyone.
In Oz you are SUPPOSED to read call signs like that.
"1/ Calling "Fully ready" or "ready on reaching" or "Ready in turn"
So what do you say when the AIP requires you to state "fully ready" (as below), or do you pick and choose which bits of an AIP / aerodrome briefing to comply with?
This example from Amsterdam,
• When ready to push, advise start up: gate number, ATIS code and “fully ready”.
29th Feb 2012, 22:24
you don't have to use the words "fully ready"
I mean can you be "partly ready" anyway????
Ready is ready……..
"Cathay 123 half ready on reaching in turn"…:D
If that's what the Dutchies want then fine…...:eek:
Not just the Dutch, but many EU airports including the UK. It is standard RT phraseology to report "fully ready" that is their words that they are requiring to be used. So why argue the point?
If they did not wish for you to state "fully ready" then they would just say to report "ready"
29th Feb 2012, 22:44
Can a women be fully pregnant? or is she simply just pregnant?
Is it possible to be partly pregnant?
we could do this all day but i'm half ready to walk out the door for lunch, maybe i can only walk out the door if i'm fully ready????:cool:
29th Feb 2012, 22:59
look at the UK CAA CAP 413 RT document chapter 4 top of page 6 Item 1.6.4
It seems you don't have to actually report Ready in the UK at all, ATC may ask you to report Ready however.
They certainly don't use the word "fully" anywhere that I can see.
here ya go bud, fill ya fully full boots:ok:
29th Feb 2012, 22:59
I’m with nitpicker330 on this. While I understand it is in many cases a requirement in many EU countries and in the UK, it is a pointless waste of an already overstretched VHF environment. You are either ready or your not.
1st Mar 2012, 00:00
Christ sake guys,
You are moaning about the use of an extra word "fully" when our northerly neighbours are using 121.5 to discuss the price of pork and how they fixed their bicycle.
Where is the 121.5 police when you need them!:ok:
1st Mar 2012, 00:47
True, that's another gripe!!
1st Mar 2012, 04:56
"...and how they fixed their bicycle."
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA best line of the month!!!! :D
Steve the Pirate
1st Mar 2012, 09:57
best line of the month!!!!
Somewhat premature wouldn't you say? :)
1st Mar 2012, 11:43
You don't need to address them each and every call, only first contact or when there has been a time lag between calls or on HF.
What is the time lag champ??
I'm not saying its right and usually I'm the first to get annoyed by their "liberal" use of 121.5, but if you understood Putonghua at all you would know that most, if not all, of the banter that goes on is actually operational. Half the time they are on a wrong freq so another aircraft has to relay the correct freq (very sloppy yes but not talking about pork exactly). Sometimes its a bit like the Chinese 123.45 version of North Americans asking about rides and whether directs are available that day or why not.
1st Mar 2012, 21:46
ICAO DOC 4444
4.11.3 Radiotelephony procedures for air-ground voice communication channel changeover
When so prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority, the initial call to an ATC unit after a change of air-ground voice communication channel shall contain the following elements:
a) designation of the station being called;
b) call sign and, for aircraft in the heavy wake turbulence category, the word “Heavy”;
c) level, including passing and cleared levels if not maintaining the cleared level;
d) speed, if assigned by ATC; and
e) additional elements, as required by the appropriate ATS authority.
Next, with regards to saying "fully" Ready:- please take note of item e*
Chapter 12. Phraseologies 12-21
Note.— The pilot will, when requested, report “RUNWAY VACATED” when the entire aircraft is beyond the relevant runway-holding position.
*e) RUNWAY VACATED.
* Denotes pilot transmission.
188.8.131.52 PREPARATION FOR TAKE-OFF a) UNABLE TO ISSUE (designator) DEPARTURE (reasons);
b) REPORT WHEN READY [FOR DEPARTURE];
c) ARE YOU READY [FOR DEPARTURE]?;
d) ARE YOU READY FOR IMMEDIATE DEPARTURE?;
... if unable to issue take-off clearance f) WAIT [reason];
... clearance to enter runway and await take-off clearance g) LINE UP [AND WAIT];
†h) LINE UP RUNWAY (number);
i) LINE UP. BE READY FOR IMMEDIATE DEPARTURE;
... conditional clearances ‡j) (condition) LINE UP (brief reiteration of the condition);
... acknowledgement of a conditional clearance *k) (condition) LINING UP (brief reiteration of the condition);
... confirmation or otherwise of the readback of conditional clearance
l) [THAT IS] CORRECT (or NEGATIVE) [I SAY AGAIN] ... (as appropriate).
* Denotes pilot transmission. † When there is the possibility of confusion during multiple runway operations. ‡ Provisions concerning the use of conditional clearances are contained in 12.2.7.
184.108.40.206 TAKE-OFF CLEARANCE a) RUNWAY (number) CLEARED FOR TAKE-OFF [REPORT AIRBORNE];
... when reduced runway separation is used b) (traffic information) RUNWAY (number) CLEARED FOR TAKE-OFF;
1st Mar 2012, 22:23
Ok crwass. Is that clear enough for you?
No, well they don't specify a time lag whereupon you would address the ATS unit again BUT common sense and plain brains would say after a considerable time lag especially if the freq is quiet. Ok for you, maybe 10 to 15 mins??
Just don't address them each and every call, ok?
2nd Mar 2012, 01:25
This discussion should be moved to the 'PPL Syllabus and Flying School Bar Talk Forum'
2nd Mar 2012, 01:31
Do something else with your day man.
2nd Mar 2012, 06:59
When an old pilot man I had the sometimes dubious privilege to work for, in the days we plied the Bass Strait and it's islands daily, this fella (his initials were DH in all truth) . . .. DH would hog the frequency for minutes at a time, rabbiting on to some other plane about separation or intentions or you name it .. . after one prolonged monologue from DH, the moment he unkeyed his mic . a dag designated NP softly intoned for all to hear - "Change hands Dallas - change hands."
2nd Mar 2012, 11:41
Man I've had a great day off thanks for asking!!
When I get seriously challenged over a point I know to be correct I make sure I quote the facts. In this case straight from ICAO. You asked me to "tell us" so I would have hated to let you down :ok:
2nd Mar 2012, 13:26
DH gave me one of the all time graetest lectures over the radio but he had the wrong pilot . Passed his message on to my boss as promised.:ugh:
3rd Mar 2012, 00:20
DH gave me one of the all time graetest lectures over the radio but he had the wrong pilot . Passed his message on to my boss as promised.
Ah, DH. Now there's a blast from the past. Did he tell you off for not doing a touch and go at Bridport on the way to FLI? "I'm watchin' you ****" :E Or did you get in the way of one of his shiny Herons through the Gap?
From ATC point of view, I'm with nitpicker. Can't stand the "fully ready" and "fully established" BS. Unfortunately part of the blame for the fully ready crap can be laid on the stupid 5 minutes to start call required here. To which the normal response is "report fully ready". The 5 minute call is to prompt a call down to the radar centre to check for any departure time restriction.
Now we have people coming up to the holding point reporting "fully ready". As said above, you're ready or you're not, end of story. Same for "established".
3rd Mar 2012, 04:19
"Fully established" is called when you have previously only called localiser established and you were asked to do so.
There are far more important things to be worried about, no doubt nitpicker will demand flap or flaps whichever he prefers!
3rd Mar 2012, 08:04
......have you captured the Localizer?
....no, but we have it cornered....
I'll get my coat...!:ok:
3rd Mar 2012, 12:20
Keep it brief but and if in doubt simply add 'do not disturb me at this time as I'm in the middle of a NDB letdown':ok:
3rd Mar 2012, 14:51
You still have ADF's fitted?
4th Mar 2012, 00:26
Nope, Flap or Flaps doesn't bother me at all. :)
4th Mar 2012, 00:59
Not too nitpicky then.:ok: