Traunche 3 by Stealth?

[Avtur]

The last redundancy session, some 10 or so years ago, promised a third traunch of redundancy, but it all stopped after the second. A statement at that time from manning (or whatever they were then) essentially proclaimed that changes to the quality of life of RAF personnel would enhance natural wastage. This clearly meant it would mitigate the cost of a third traunch, which at that time was rather lucrative.

Then, almost immediately, followed the introduction of the immature and inadequate system that was JPA; the biggest changes to allowances (by stealth) ever; and an increase to the Annual Fitness Test pass standard. The commulative result was an exit of people who would have probably preferred to see a career to 22 yrs or 55yr (or whatever).

Now we are discussing the possible career average pension, and the probability that you won't get your pension until age 55 irrespective of when you leave, or even later; do you think that the service is once again changing the environment by stealth to encourage exits from the Service, without a need to pay redundancy?

Will the AFT pass mark increase? Will the period of OOA duties and thier durations increase further? Will what is left of the allowances system be cut further or abolished over time? Will the benifits and rewards of serving in HM Forces be outweighed by the costs of living, ambiguity of life, quality of life, and the deeper self-sacrifices that only those who have served in combat areas can understand?

I open the debate with eagerness.

[ALM In Waiting]

The powers that be really can't afford to push things much further with regards to reductions in allowances and terms of service. The love of the job only carries you so far.

The bull**** continues to gather. Anyone who has been on det recently knows the pain of RSOI and (de) compression, plus all the epic triv in between. There comes a point were its just not worth it. With pensions being eroded and pay effectively cut for three years but charges going up, I doubt they will struggle to fill a 'stealth' tranche three. Just my tipsy two cents.

[TheWizard]

Just as a small aside, the RAF AFT has just been extended to include EVERYBODY up to the age of 65 (used to stop at age 55). There is a DIN if you want to read it!

[ALM In Waiting]

I'd be interested to see what level you have to achieve at 60-65....

[Avtur]

Probably what a 40 year old female has to achieve. No seximsm intended.

[just another jocky]

Probably what a 40 year old female has to achieve. No seximsm intended.

None intended here either, but as a 48yo male a couple of years ago, my running standard required was higher than an early 20's female. How can that be right? :confused:

As a current 51yo, a 17yo female only needs to complete 1 extra leg than I do. I'm clearly missing something.

[Harley Quinn]

As a current 51yo, a 17yo female only needs to complete 1 extra leg than I do. I'm clearly missing something.

Get some man boobs and then try arguing the point?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

As a current 51yo, a 17yo female only needs to complete 1 extra leg than I do. I'm clearly missing something.

It's one of those strange things I have never managed to get my head round either.

It's absolutely clear from the fitness test settings that the average woman is not capable of competing physically at the same level as the average man but somehow they are equal to to their fellow man :confused:

Don't confuse this with a bleat about the fitness test, medical exemption for my last 5 months of service but I have done it every year since it came in and sailed through every time, it really is a piece of wee wee but it's hardly equal if one gender has to achieve less than the other.

[alfred_the_great]

VO2 Max, understand what it means, and it's relationship to fitness.

[Whenurhappy]

The last tranche was in 2005/6, coinciding with the introduction of JPA and JSP 752, which sought to 'harmonise' pay and allowances across the Services. It was used as an opportunity to modernise allowances (eg removal of allowances for Governesses and Beagles - the latter being the canine and not, err, the prolific PPrune poster) but also removed useful allowances for those in extremely cold climates - eg Winter log allowance. DOMCOL leave was also reduced - by strealth and materially altering the TACOS of those to which it applied.

The redundancy tranche was never billed as 'the last' because, patently, that is not the case. The allowances, which required tri-Service approval, were also relatively generous in retorspect bearing in mind that they were compiled several years befor the fiscal free-fall. Sadly, I was in the bracket for redundancy but offered promotion several days before the drop-dead date, counched in veiled threats such as 'well, you just might not get redundancy...' even though the field in my branch was narrow and there were more slots than applicants...

[switch_on_lofty]

Did you really get a "winter log allowance"? [not a bite]

[unclenelli]

AVTUR
I remember in 2002 I had to complete MSFT 8-10

Here in 2012, I have to complete 8-09??????????????????????????



And I'm about to embark on my 3rd 4mth OOA in 3yrs!!!!
(Yes the OOA bleaters will harp on about others getting more OOA, but our trade harmony is published at 3-5yr for Sgts!)

[Whenurhappy]

Yes - in Italy, of all places, we could claim about 150 Euros a season, along with a soft furnishing allowance which was about 600 Euros when moving into a hiring. Both gone now, of course, along with the generous 'Hornsby' Allowances for Defence Attaches (c £20k) to set up a new Residence.

I never claimed to have my Beagles moved at the public expense. More's the pity:bored:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

VO2 Max, understand what it means, and it's relationship to fitness.

Ah the old VO2 Max tosh which of course explains the reason why girls not only don't run as far as guys but also don't press/sit up as much either, ever wonder why there is no lifting element to the fitness test :p

"PC" the military fitness test as much as you like but it's no accident that pretty much every major sport on the planet has separate mens and womens circuits and it's not that difficult to work out why :ok:

[NutLoose]

"PC" the military fitness test as much as you like but it's no accident that pretty much every major sport on the planet has separate mens and womens circuits and it's not that difficult to work out why

Yup the bitching would be unbearable, and in the baton race coming up behind some pert young lady in a pair of tight shorts crouched over and ready to go I would fumble the handover... :p

Or is there another reason? :O

[Kreuger flap]

VO2 Max Ahh the good old Fick Equation VO2 = Q x A-VO2 diff.

During every activity we are using some percentage of our maximum VO2. But how do we measure VO2? Well, we look at two things: 1) the amount of oxygen delivered to the cells and 2) how much oxygen is used by the cells.
1.The oxygen delivery to cells is calculated by determining cardiac output (amount of blood pumped per minute). Cardiac output (aka Q) is made up of two components – how much blood is pumped per beat (aka stroke volume) and how many times the heart beats per minute (aka heart rate). The short version? Cardiac output is equal to stroke volume times heart rate. The really short version? Q = SV x HR
2.How much oxygen is used by the cells is called oxygen extraction. Oxygen extraction looks at how much oxygen is taken from the blood to be used by the cells to make ATP for energy. Oxygen extraction rates are measured by the difference in oxygen saturation of the blood going to the tissues (in the arteries) and of the blood returning to the heart (in the veins). This is known as the arterio-venous difference or A-VO2 difference.
Do you see how the Fick equation comes together now? You take your Q and your A-VO2 and put them together. Vo2 = Q x A-VO2 difference Do you see the importance of understanding Fick? If you know what components make up aerobic capacity (HR, SV, A-VO2 diff) you may have a better understanding of how you can influence those variables to increase an individual’s Max VO2.

[snaggletooth]

What the Fick did that mean?!

[Kreuger flap]

Oh for Fick sake. It's ficking simple. To the RAF it means that a skinny 18 yr old female RAF cross country runner who also runs for the inter services has to do less shuttles than a fat, wheezy 50 yr old male Chief Tech. Simples.

[VinRouge]

I would also be intrigued to know what the scientific links are between genetic VO2 max and the ability to do algebra is.

[Willard Whyte]

To the RAF it means that a skinny 18 yr old female RAF cross country runner who also runs for the inter services has to do less shuttles than a fat, wheezy 50 yr old male Chief Tech.

Don't care how fit they are as long as they can fix an aeroplane.

[Kreuger flap]

Jehovah!!!!!!!!!!:eek: Running up and down in ever increasing speeds between two lines 20m apart IS the most important thing in the RAF. How else is the Station Commander likely to get his promotion? That's right by introducing batch testing so you can get into a situation where you are in date for your fitness test but because you miss batch testing by 1 day you have administrative action taken against you for your attitude to fitness EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE STILL IN DATE!!!! :ugh:(Not me by the way) .Not by having aircraft available to do tasks:=. No, the mirror techs know what's important.

[alfred_the_great]

Sounds like lots of fat wheezy 50 years here. Perhaps you could just do some phys and stop whinging? Oh, and be a leader, and lead your people to achieve the mandated goal. Or do us all a favour and leave the RAF, then you could smoke and over-eat to your heart's delight and suffer no consequences whatsoever.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sounds like lots of fat wheezy 50 years here. Perhaps you could just do some phys and stop whinging? Oh, and be a leader, and lead your people to achieve the mandated goal. Or do us all a favour and leave the RAF, then you could smoke and over-eat to your heart's delight and suffer no consequences whatsoever.

Priceless, absolutely priceless, top quality banter chap, keep it coming as it has me in stitches here :p:p:p:p:p

[Jayand]

Forgive me for stating the bleeding obvious, military personel are in the war fighting business.
Having an above average fitness and a keen attitude to fitness is essential.
Physically men are different to women, get over it and stop bumping your gums.
In answer to the original thread, the moral currently is so low a third tranche may not be needed, however I don't believe it is some warped policy.

[VinRouge]

I would prefer to die at 65 having lived a life consuming krug, fois gois and not become obsessed with phys than eating rivita, spending my life in the gym and end up dribbling pea soup down my chin from 70-95.

[PTT]

Physically men are different to women, get over it and stop bumping your gums.Physically all men and all women are different, so should everyone should have an individual standard depending on their physiology? Or perhaps we should say "this is the standard we require of an member of the RAF, irrespective of weight, height, sex, colour or place of birth".
To differentiate employment standards between one group and another on the basis of solely their sex is, by definition, sexist.

[Kreuger flap]

What about those freaky men who are now females? What level do they have to achieve?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

What about those freaky men who are now females?

Or even worse, go through all that "stuff" to become females then cunningly discover they have lesbian tendencies :p:p:p

[k3k3]

Becoming female to pass the fitness test is a bit drastic though.

[Kreuger flap]

So is doing it to become a lesbian.

[Willard Whyte]

I would prefer to die at 65 having lived a life consuming krug, fois gois and not become obsessed with phys than eating rivita, spending my life in the gym and end up dribbling pea soup down my chin from 70-95. http://thetechhound.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/thumbs-up2.jpg

[BEagle]

James Fixx was the author of the 1977 best-selling book, The Complete Book of Running. Best known as Jim Fixx, he is credited with helping start America's fitness revolution, popularizing the sport of running and demonstrating the health benefits of regular jogging.

On July 20, 1984, Fixx died at the age of 52 of a fulminant heart attack, after his daily run on Vermont Route 15 in Hardwick.

:rolleyes:

[Courtney Mil]

Blimey. I need to start taking it easy then, BEags. Excellent use of the word 'fulminant' there, by the way. :ok:

[Jayand]

I love this thread, the most exercise all you whiners get is pulling up your chair to the computer.
When you joined you had to do phys, quite a bit of it in most cases, like it or not you are and have always been required to maintain a certain level of fitness (it's part of your job, that thing you get paid for!).
Eating nice food and enjoying some booze is perfectly acceptable as long as you can still pass the woefully low fitness test levels.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bleep+test+sex+differences&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teachpe.com%2Fanatomy%2Fvo2max.php&ei=P1BLT47fOs2F8gPMwOzBDg&usg=AFQjCNFe7rU5UJKDJm57ul_ogL7iXrfSdg
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bleep+test+sex+differences&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEwQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lazyrunner.com%2Fbeep-test&ei=P1BLT47fOs2F8gPMwOzBDg&usg=AFQjCNH4jnpamOKZJ8o5AHFgCBCtVkT3xw

[Whenurhappy]

Willard Wight,

The difference is that a wheezy 52 year old Chf Tech isn't only fixing aircraft. In recent years he could have been an 'outside the wire' convoy commander, doing BDR on MERT helicopters, could be on a MERT itself, diving for cover during a rocket attack, etc...


And there's a personal pride thing, too. There is nothing attractive about getting old and fat. I've done both and it's not good for future job prospects (outside the Service). When I did foreign staff college I put on over a stone, to the point that my No1s just about burst (in fact the trousers did, during a Sunset Ceremony on one of HM's newest war canoes during a visit...). So, I ate less, did some moderate amount of exercise and ended up whipping arse on the fitness test against guys half my age. And save enormous tailoring costs.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Willard Wight,

The difference is that a wheezy 52 year old Chf Tech isn't only fixing aircraft. In recent years he could have been an 'outside the wire' convoy commander, doing BDR on MERT helicopters, could be on a MERT itself, diving for cover during a rocket attack, etc...


I am an overweight 54 year old who has been passing the fitness test with ease in all it's guises since it's introduction and to this day I am not sure how that particular tick in the box has enhanced my overall capability :confused:

[Whenurhappy]

OK - I accept that there is a difference between being overweight and unfit (look at typical League or rugger players). And Well Done for passing your test.

I just prefer to ket fit and keep my weight down!

[Widger]

getting back to the point of the thread:

The MoD does not want YOU!

It cannot afford YOU!

It wants to get rid of thousands of YOU!

By getting rid of YOU it will save money and hope to fill the £36bn black hole

If it can get rid of YOU without spending too much money on redundancy etc. then it will do so, by making life uncomfortable (fitness test, poor housing, reduction in allowances, reduction of harmony, paying for your food, paying for your accomodation, reduction in kit and making you spend your entire career on ops/detachment). Great if you are in your 20s and single but...)

[PTT]

@ Jayand - from your link: Redirect Notice (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...AHFgCBCtVkT3xw)
Values of VO2max are typically 40-60% higher in men than in women. This difference is due to the variance in bodyweight and lean body mass between men and women. Mens lungs and hearts are typically larger and able to work at a harder rate.So what? If a woman, at her fitness level, is able to do the job then so can a man at the same fitness level. The logical error here is the assumption that the comparison is between individuals, when the requirement is for the individual to do the job and the comparison should therefore be made between the individual and the standard required.
Whether you are a "typical man" or "typical woman" is irrelevant when it comes to taking part in a "typical firefight": the enemy are not going to go easier on you because of your sex.
Nobody is denying that there are physiological differences between men and women; the question is whether those differences are in any way relevant when it comes to being of a standard to do the job.

[zedder]

On July 20, 1984, Fixx died at the age of 52 of a fulminant heart attack, after his daily run on Vermont Route 15 in Hardwick.

As I've always explained it:

Q. How many people do you know during your time in the RAF who have keeled over and died down the gym or doing other sport related activity?
A. Several (it appears for most people).

Q. How many people do you know during your time in the RAF who have keeled over and died in the bar?
A. None (for almost all if not all people).

In which case I'll see you in the bar!;)

[Jayand]

There are a few ways of looking at it.
Firstly: a fitness test is a good way of assessing an individuals general health and fitness, along with regular medicals, if you don't have a pass mark whats the point in the test? quite reasonably the pass mark takes into account your age, if it's ok to account for age then why not sex?
If you make the pass level equal regardless of sex then you are not truly assessing the males! either that or you are penalising the females by making their levels comparatively higher than their male counterparts!
I am not really sure what the problem is?
The argument that one is fit enough to do their job isn't a sound one, I have seen some severely overweight airmen and women do their job perfectly adequately, are they a good example for the service, could they cope in a high tempo, high extreme climate on ops?
Might they cost the service money and time and later in life the NHS?
It's not new, nobody has just sprung it on you and the levels for both sexes are childlike so just get on with it! There are plenty worse hoops to jump through! If this is what really bothers people then perhaps they should leave and save the need for that third tranche!

[Willard Whyte]

Nonsense. Doing the job, whatever that may be, is the only factor that matters.

If a 54 year old is expected to do the same job in the same conditions as someone far younger then the test should be the same. That goes whichever their gender.

When I leave I'll be glad to leave all you gym queens behind, your attitude is part of the unimaginative line-toeing that makes H.M. forces such a joyless dirge these days.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

There are a few ways of looking at it.
Firstly: a realistic fitness test is a good way of assessing an individuals general health and fitness, along with regular medicals, if you don't have a pass mark whats the point in the test? quite reasonably the pass mark takes into account your age, if it's ok to account for age then why not sex? If you make the pass level equal regardless of sex then you are not truly assessing the males! either that or you are penalising the females by making their levels comparatively higher than their male counterparts!
I am not really sure what the problem is?
The argument that one is fit enough to do their job isn't a sound one, I have seen some severely overweight airmen and women do their job perfectly adequately, are they a good example for the service, could they cope in a high tempo, high extreme climate on ops, if they have passed their AFT what is the problem? Might they cost the service money and time and later in life the NHS? It's not new, nobody has just sprung it on you and the levels for both sexes are childlike so just get on with it! If the levels are childlike care to explain the value? There are plenty worse hoops to jump through! If this is what really bothers people then perhaps they should leave and save the need for that third tranche!

Jay,

You fall into the classic trap, like so many others when you assume that anyone who questions the AFT has a bad attitude towards fitness, grow your mind a bit young man and try and see the bigger picture.

The AFT is nowt but a tick chase and proves absolutely jack when it comes down to it, which you happily confirm with your recognition of the "childlike" levels :ok:

[Jayand]

Doing the job is fine but how do you decide if somebody is fit to do it?
One persons job in the same trade can be vastly different to the next persons!
The crux is it's part of the job and has been for a very long time, not liking it or it's testing methods does not matter. I am no "gym queen" but simply recognise the need for a healthy body to aid me in my daily life. The RAF wants you to do likewise and employs fair and world wide recognised methods of testing.
Personally I would introduce mandatory pt three times a week to ensure my workforce maintained it's health, that really would help save the need for tranche three!
You would lose some very capable people but you would keep just as many fit capable ones instead.
Am off for a run, enjoy your surfin.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Doing the job is fine but how do you decide if somebody is fit to do it?


Clearly by asking them to run up and down the gym a few times, do a few sit ups and press ups and set a pass mark of childlike proportions :p

[PTT]

Doing the job is fine but how do you decide if somebody is fit to do it?I don't really care so long as everyone has to pass to the same standard - male, female or other. The job is the same regardless of your sex.

[Easy Street]

Paraphrased quote from CinC Air Command a few months ago in RAF News...

..."sport is an integral part of a modern RAF career"...

...which I thought was particularly ironic, since the death of his predecessor during a triathlon was an integral part of his elevation to 4* ;)

[I'm Off!]

I've always thought that changing required pass levels dependent on age/sex was bollocks. I think that each job/specialisation should have a fitness requirement, and that should be applied to all who serve in that role. Surely this is the only way to ensure that personnel are fit enough to perform the role to which they are assigned?

[Whenurhappy]

AFT or no AFT, there is the matter of personal pride. Fat, unfit people in uniform are an embarrassment to their colleagues. Whilst I was job searching, a number of recruiters stressed how important first impressions are - good suit, shirt and tie good haircut, looking trim (and I roll out at 215 lbs), a trip to the sun-bed , nasal hairs trimmed, etc. Some of you might scoff this advice, but if you are going for a high profile/ high paying appointment, image matters as much as your CV., especially at the interview stage.

It might be me, but if I've been doing a bit of exercise, able to see my toes again and my cheekbones return, I feel a lot more positive, sleep better and have more energy both for work and my family. Now that can't be bad?

[Grimweasel]

Fear not. Rest in peace knowing that savings from chopping all the functionality and morale from the Armed Forces are being used to give Jonny foreigner free drugs in the supposed name of preventing HIV spreading amongst the indigenous population??!!

Foreigners to be offered free treatment for HIV on the NHS - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9109658/Foreigners-to-be-offered-free-treatment-for-HIV-on-the-NHS.html)

How about you screen for it for residency and if you have it - you are not allowed in?

No wonder this country is broke....

[tarbaby]

Used to run with no pain mainly because I was always 10ft behind a beautiful rear end. No pain. She ran for the Seychelles in the next Olympics. Her training method was to stay ahead of me.

A lot of the people who are against personal fitness, use Jim Fixxit dying due to too much exercise as an excuse for not training. This is true, he did die. However no male member in his family had ever made it past 46 years old. He was advised to relax his training schedule but refused.

i can understand the problem with females at a greatly younger age having performance standards that older men cannot possibly achieve. I could never understand why the Foreign Office lady, on secondment to Jordan, could give me a 4km start and run me down in the last km in a 10km run. Mind you, she could out run all the jock strappers, fit Germans, Austrians, Swedes, even the occasional Brit, we were all grist to her mill. Made this Kiwi feel that he was not being discriminated against.

[Red Line Entry]

Having watched the BBC programme on exercise last night, I'm all in favour of their High Intensity method: 3 x 20 secs of full chat, 3 times a week.

3 mins of exercise per week? I might be able to manage that!:ok:

[Melchett01]

Having watched the BBC programme on exercise last night, I'm all in favour of their High Intensity method: 3 x 20 secs of full chat, 3 times a week.

3 mins of exercise per week? I might be able to manage that

That could represent a significant improvement on the current levels of physical activity - Mrs RLE will be delighted :E

[Red Line Entry]

Ouch! :\ Where have you hidden the webcam?

(It's the leaping off, hitting the stopwatch and yelling "Wow, a personal best!" that irritates her...)