Tricky question ?

[Lancair70]

Im not sure how to go about this.
Im a father of 2 boys who reside with their mother in NW NSW. I live in NE NSW. Ive just completed a 14 hr driving trip to collect my boys for a 5 night stay. I dont want to do it again ! I have flown the boys for most of the trips I was required to do last year, in a barter trade deal with an aircraft owner, reducing my costs. This deal is somewhat limited or unavailable this year. (hence the recent marathon drive)
Im after a reasonably fast and economical aircraft to use up to 12 times a year on a 400nm or more return trip. (up to 800nm) An aircraft that fits the bill is a Commanche.
It so happens that there are a few locally based. 1 (a 260hp) gets very little use and just happens to be owned by a family friend. The other 2 (both 250's) are also privately owned, both by gentlemen I know enough to call their first name when I see them and engage in aircraft chat etc. All 3 owners know I have a CPL and that I semi-regularly fly the local parachute C182.

Here's the tricky question and Im sure you all worked it out by now, How does one ask a private aircraft owner if you can fly their aeroplane ?
If indeed at all.
In my mind is, I was once told, "Asking a man if you can fly his aeroplane, is like asking him if you can **** his wife!"
Is that good advice ?

I have some alternative methods of approaching the situation (LOL) but am keen to hear others views first.

Lancair

[Capt Claret]

Couldn't go too far wrong with, "G'day Bill, I'd like to hire your aeroplane from time to time, is it available?", could you?

[sms777]

In good old fashioned outback terms I do agree with Capt Claret. However when it comes to insurance terms it is a whole new ball game.
Sit the shot gun in the corner and have a good old brew with the aircarft owner and talk it over seriously what is involved legally regarding hiring his aircraft ocassionally. You'be suprised how complicated it will be all in a sudden.

[Lancair70]

"Sit the shotgun in the corner", I love it. Good advice.
The insurance issue had entered my mind and could be a show stopper without the owner being on board maybe ? Which isnt ideal all the time. Of course happy to have him along etc but I have other friends whod like to fly as well.

[Jamair]

You absolutely categorically MUST write up an agreement that covers all the issues associated with hiring the aircraft, such as insurance (who pays) public liability, passenger liability, mechanical failures, fuel, air services charges, landing fees, call-out fees, who does what in the event of an incident or mechanical problem, how the aircraft will be run and tied down or otherwise managed when not flying....

Check out the hire agreements that aeroclubs use as an example / starting point.

Do yourself and the owners a huge favour and get an aviation lawyer to write up the agreement. It's all very well saying 'she'll be right mate' but when the poo hits the fan a small misunderstanding can become a massive financial and legal burden very quickly.

[Aussie Bob]

I disagree with Jamair, IMHO a handshake deal is fine but that is just me, a bit old school.

If it were my aeroplane however, I would say no, because it is my personal toy and I keep it that way. That said, I would welcome you asking, take no offence and explain that it wasn't just you, I simply do not hire.

[Desert Flower]

That said, I would welcome you asking, take no offence and explain that it wasn't just you, I simply do not hire.

Sounds like the same reason we give when someone asks to borrow our big car trailer!

DF.

[VH-XXX]

Consider this:

I once used an aircraft to do a favour for someone and deliver a passenger for something important. We had a bird-strike when I went for a short fly whilst waiting for the person to do what I took them there to do.

I didn't pay to hire the aircraft as I was doing a favour of the owner of the aircraft. Tricky situation. I didn't hire the aircraft, but I was flying it on a private flight when the damage occurred.

Liken that to your situation and consider that your agreement didn't cover such damage and who might be liable.

Add to this already tricky situation that when the bird-strike damage was repaired, a 6 inch crack was found in the engine block. Ouch. Not my fault, but will the owner of the aircraft agree with you if that happens to their pride and joy???


Whenever I borrow or hire an aircraft I sure as hell always fly the aircraft in the manner demonstrated to me by the owner or competent person, even if I disagree with the operation; eg. use of mixture. It's not my aircraft. If I deviate from their direction given I feel liable if any issues occur regardless of whether it is actually my fault or not.

[Frank Arouet]

Firstly approach all the owners as if it were a cost share. It sounds like a pick up and drop off so he won't be hanging around and you get half the flying and that shouldn't bugga the insurance if he is on board. Most owners like to use their aeroplanes and its good for both soul and engine.

Alternatively approach The Federal magistrates Court to amend the contact arrangements to get the Mother to share the driving one way. or meet half way. I bet she'll soon get tired of that.

Armed with that, note the next paragraphs.

Have you thought about private hire or a joint ownership of a C172 or something similar.

Yes yes, I know the answer, but what you want, and what you need, are two different aeroplanes.

Also a lot of owners simply won't lend you their pride and joy. Ask anybody who owns a taildragger. Don't feel bad about that.

[Clearedtoreenter]

I would not mind anyone asking... But unless I felt confident that that person would fly and look after my pride and joy at least as well as I do, and make it worth my while, I would probably politely decline. I had a guy approach me that way recently but (1)he was looking for a significant saving over what a local flying school would charge for a scruffy similar age and model with much higher time and (2) he seemed to think I was something like Hertz car rental. Although he flew OK, he just did not display any kind of 'emotional' inclination to MY aircraft. I was not convinced he would look after it the way I'd expect as soon as he was out of sight. It was obviously just another hire to him. So I quoted him a rate higher than the local club... and off he went.

I guess the best advice is work on building a trusting relationship with an owner and who knows what you could achieve...

[Jamair]

My advice was based on bitter experience after a handshake deal went wrong and cost me my aeroplane, my house, my pride, every cent I had and bloody near my family as well.

Choose wisely grasshopper.

[Lancair70]

Re getting my boys mother to do part or half of the driving, she does. In fact her court ordered part is greater than mine overall, at end of term holidays she has to bring the boys to me, a 1100km road trip, one way. The recent 14hr drive I did was collecting them from the halfway point ! Having flown it a few times, I AM NOT keen on doing the drive again. approx 3hrs return in a 125ktas aircraft (C182) sure beats 14+hrs at 2'agl and 50kt average. A PA-24 will be even quicker.

I am very wary of flying anyones aircraft, Ive been caught out before, aircraft went u/s whilst a few hours away from home port and I had to pay for another aircraft to fly out with LAME and owner, long story a long time ago.
There was a reasonbly active flying school nearby and I had approached some CPL students about flying with me, I fly the trip with my boys on board and they fly the other leg. Unfortunately the schools gone quiet (cfi quit) and students have moved on.
If I could afford to buy my own aircraft or even a share in one Id be doing that for sure.

Lancair

[DBTW]

Lancair, Captain Claret said right at the beginning
Couldn't go too far wrong with, "G'day Bill, I'd like to hire your aeroplane from time to time, is it available?", could you?
That is the right answer for now.

All the other issues are a part of the risk analysis, and how those risks are managed forms the next part of the discussion.

On insurance, discount it as an issue. My aircraft policy says if I have approve the pilot, then cover is the same as if I were flying it. Pretty sure most of them read that way, but even if they don't and different insurance is needed, the cost associated would be down to you.

Apologies...mine is only a 2 seater and is on the Limited Register...

[Tinstaafl]

Yeah, a friendly "G'day. Have you ever considered renting your aeroplane to others? It could help subsidise its fixed costs." might work.

[RAC/OPS]

I'd say "borrow my wife to take on the drive - might make the 14 hours go faster!"

[PA39]

Two things you NEVER lend......your wife or your aircraft as they both come back the same !!

Seriously, ask if its for private hire. Please make sure you know the fuel system and ememg gear extension.

[aussie027]

Re all the insurance and liability points mentioned above, I am not sure how it works here in Aust but as a US AOPA member I will just mention their advice re aircraft rental situations.

Certainly all possible issues/scenarios need to be carefully considered as several have mentioned PRIOR to even touching the aircraft.

If the owners policy covers absolutely everything and you can be put on it then you too will be fully covered same as the owner is.
If not then "renters insurance" is what US AOPA highly recommend ( and offer) as well as numerous other aviation insurance companies. Policies cover different classes and categories of aircraft and for a set annual price cover liability, damages, loss of use etc etc.
Very useful if you rent on a regular basis from a variety of individual people, clubs etc as even in the US most aero clubs, flight schools etc do not specifically cover rentals unless you have one of their instructors onboard.

So if the guy says yes you can rent his plane then calling a few av insurance companies may yield some useful info and possibly a reasonable rental policy.
Just a thought.:ok:

[Macrohard]

I don't understand why you don't just go down to the airport and private hire the aircraft of choice? Or are you trying to be "thrifty" and save a few bucks? Borrowing an aircraft or trying to do it on the cheap may well work out more expensive in the the event of any unforeseen issues.

[aussie027]

Borrowing an aircraft or trying to do it on the cheap may well work out more expensive in the the event of any unforeseen issues.

Remember, It is aviation,....something can always go wrong.

So CYA!! :E

[Lancair70]

Macro, if I could just go to the airport and hire a suitable aircraft, I would.
The 2 nearest to me have for rent, a very tired on condition C172. A whizbang C172 w/ G1000, another tired C172 and a PA32 thats long in the tooth (engine wise) too (although not a bad performer). All for less per hour than what Im willing to part with per hour, so its not a cost saving exercise, more an exercise in finding a faster locally available aircraft. Id like to be able to see at least 120kt GS into a 20kt headwind, which I regularly encounter flying west from here. An aircraft I can rent for Ca$h would be a bonus. ;)

If I have to drive 2 hours to YBAF to hire an aircraft to fly the boys an extra half hour longer, it not only adds at least an hour to what I have to pay for aircraft wise, it adds to my total travel time and the boys, which is my main consideration, easing the travel time on my boys that is forced on them by their mothers personal needs.

[Lasiorhinus]

Is there any reason why you don't just put your kids on an RPT flight?

[Lancair70]

Yes, there is no direct RPT flight. As they are young, they would have to travel as unaccompanied minor, requiring a responsible adult to check them in and one to collect them. This would require me flying to YSSY with them and putting them on regional flight for their mother to collect them at the destination. Costs to do this option equal or exceed the costs of flying them to the midway point myself, and get their mother out of a 10hr drive at no cost to her. She wont assist in cost of flying them except to give me what it would cost her in fuel, $150 !

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

A whizbang C172 w/ G1000,

Problem solved - beggars can't be chosers!

Dr :8

[damo1089]

Id like to be able to see at least 120kt GS into a 20kt headwind, which I regularly encounter flying west from here.

Then you turn around and fly the other way. Your gonna mostly average your TAS unless the weather is being an asshole.

Anyway, I think you can get "I fly other peoples planes around" type of personal insurance, which could be a good idea if you are having issues with the risk factor.

You sound like a good dude, i'd let you borrow my plane if I had one :)

[goldypilot]

All very good points about getting things in writing regarding insurence who pays for what and who is liable for what but lets face it you are not renting it to run an airline it is to take your family up. The same as if you wanted a mates car to drive down the road. Would you write up an agreement to take your mates falcon or commadore down to the local petrol station. NO I wouldnt maybe some of you clowns would but if it was me I would just ask them if you can borrow it. I grew up around aircraft and there are guys that won't lend you their BABY but some will. JUST ASK MATE. If all fails go to your local aeroclub and try them.

[Lancair70]

Just wanted to post an update. I have, since starting this thread been fortunate to accompany one of the aircraft owners on an Angel Flight he undertook. On the last leg to our home airport, after farewelling our passenger and relieving ourselves, as we strolled to the aircraft he offered for me to take the LHS and fly us home.:eek: I had been enjoying being a pax for once and the thought of piloting us home hadnt even crossed my mind. Being totally unprepared, I politely declined his offer, but did fly from wheels up until toc from RHS. I feel humbled by this guy, he has a shade under 10,000hrs in his logbook, in all types from Yaks to HS125, Lears etc. etc.
This Commanche being his personal aircraft from a stable of 3 or 4 inc a 200hp a side twin commanche, I humbly decline from asking him to use it personally, but will take him up on his offer to fly it, with himself onboard, should it be offered again. I am hopeful it will, as I have been asked to accompany him again in the near future.